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View Full Version : Any suggestions for powerful spells for trans? not broken mind you, need DM approval



taltamir
2009-09-23, 05:58 PM
I am looking for some good spells for a transmuter (which is pretty much limited to transmutation spells), but they can't be "crazy" because the DM will not allow those. Any suggestions?

PinkysBrain
2009-09-23, 06:08 PM
Books? 10ch

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-23, 08:19 PM
Enlarge Person
Reduce Person
Alter Self
Spider Climb
Rope Trick
Fly
Slow
Haste
Greater Magic Weapon
Shrink Item
Stone Shape
Baleful Polymorph
Fabricate
Overland Flight
Telekinesis
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Etheral Jaunt
Reverse Gravity
Time Stop

arguskos
2009-09-24, 12:49 AM
I'll guarantee he's looking for levels 1-3 at the moment. All books are permitted, but if you give something from a source that isn't the PHB or Spell Compendium, list source and page, if you would.

Note: I'm the DM in question. :smallwink:

Also, Pharaoh:

Enlarge Person
Reduce Person
Spider Climb
Rope Trick
Fly
Slow
Haste
Greater Magic Weapon
Shrink Item
Stone Shape
Overland Flight
Telekinesis
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Reverse Gravity

The above he'll get. Anything else on that list is gone for balance concerns (though, Alter Self technically exists, but is heavily altered and is at level 4). Good list though. Tal, take notes. :smallwink:

taltamir
2009-09-24, 01:07 AM
thanks everyone... I will.

What are some of the things you can do with shrink item? (beyond the obvious that is).

arguskos
2009-09-24, 01:11 AM
What can you do with a shrunken tree? Or boulder? Or building? Or whatever? Depends on your creativity.

Myrmex
2009-09-24, 01:13 AM
Enlarge Person
Reduce Person
Alter Self
Spider Climb
Rope Trick
Fly
Slow
Haste
Greater Magic Weapon
Shrink Item
Stone Shape
Baleful Polymorph
Fabricate
Overland Flight
Telekinesis
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Etheral Jaunt
Reverse Gravity
Time Stop

OMG I love the transmutation school so much.

jiriku
2009-09-24, 01:16 AM
Most commonly, you use it to conceal weapons or stolen goods, or anything else you're not supposed to have, or to carry improbably large and heavy objects conveniently.

Bonus points if you use it to steal something valuable, sleight of hand stolen goods onto someone else, and then sic the law on them. Extra bonus points if you collect a reward for turning in the "criminal".

Another useful transmutation spell: feather fall. You'd be surprised how frequently a party of adventurers finds themselves on the wrong side of an argument with gravity.

taltamir
2009-09-24, 01:24 AM
Another useful transmutation spell: feather fall. You'd be surprised how frequently a party of adventurers finds themselves on the wrong side of an argument with gravity.

It saved the lives of various party members at least 4 times in as many sessions :). I never leave home without it.


What can you do with a shrunken tree? Or boulder? Or building? Or whatever? Depends on your creativity.

it can do a whole building? ooooh....

PinkysBrain
2009-09-24, 02:03 AM
What are some of the things you can do with shrink item? (beyond the obvious that is).
Turn a circular wall of stone into a nice belt and you have got yourself dispel magic/AMF protection (carve steps on the inside before shrinking).

Temet Nosce
2009-09-24, 02:05 AM
thanks everyone... I will.

What are some of the things you can do with shrink item? (beyond the obvious that is).

A personal favorite of mine is shrinking alchemist's fire, then shooting it out of a catapult (or really any other delivery method) since the spell breaks the moment it hits (leaving whoever you shot/threw them at to deal with an enormous number of vials of alchemist's fire).

Also, tossing a shrunken boulder at someone is amusing due to breaking on hit.

taltamir
2009-09-24, 02:38 AM
A personal favorite of mine is shrinking alchemist's fire, then shooting it out of a catapult (or really any other delivery method) since the spell breaks the moment it hits (leaving whoever you shot/threw them at to deal with an enormous number of vials of alchemist's fire).

Also, tossing a shrunken boulder at someone is amusing due to breaking on hit.

nice... you can also use a command word to make it take original size right before hitting for some splatter damage.

BobVosh
2009-09-24, 02:45 AM
thanks everyone... I will.

What are some of the things you can do with shrink item? (beyond the obvious that is).

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94203

There is a few other threads based around that one spell.

taltamir
2009-09-24, 03:14 AM
mmm... very creative and deadly uses...
2300 d6 damage from alchemist fire is especially nice.

shrink a boulder sized lump of iron... shape it into a stabbing weapon. Stab someone and then unshrink it while in their body.
eh, too much effort, the ideas they gave like air bombing cities are far more effective...

Bang
2009-09-24, 03:21 AM
I am looking for some good spells for a transmuter (which is pretty much limited to transmutation spells), but they can't be "crazy" because the DM will not allow those. Any suggestions?

I'm too lazy to look through books. Luckily, someone else did this for me. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870586/CantripNs_Guide_to_Transmutation_Spells_Gods_Gifts )

Cyclocone
2009-09-24, 03:35 AM
Can it be from any list?

Glass Strike
Ray of Clumsiness
Greater Blink
Spell Enhancer
Venomfire
Nerveskitter
Decapitating Scarf
Mass Snakes Swiftness
Greater Mighty Wallop
Mental Pinnacle is awesome
and Quick Potion makes it cheap
Kaupars Quickblast is ok with fell drain/frighten on it
Amplify is handy if you're in a zone of silence
Whispercast can be handy
Sakratars Tripple Strike is like haste on crack
Mineralixe Warrior is Trans IIRC

I can't remember the source on all of them though. Some are SpC, and there are some LEoF and LoM in there as well.

By the way, how about Anyspell, Celerity, Control Winds, Animate City?
There's some Ok Transmutation spells in Serpent Kingdoms too...

Fishy
2009-09-24, 08:46 AM
Turn a circular wall of stone into a nice belt and you have got yourself dispel magic/AMF protection (carve steps on the inside before shrinking).

The variant of this is the Tinfoil Hat, favored by CO wizards everywhere. Wall of Iron + Fabricate yourself a solid metal conical teepee, then Shrink Item it into a stylish pointy wizard's hat. (Or capped cylinder, if you prefer a fez.) Advantage over the rock belt is that it grants you total concealment from all directions.

Tavar
2009-09-24, 08:50 AM
Any reason you took Baleful Polymorph out? It lacks any of the uses that make the rest of the core Polymorph school broken, and is really just a Fort save or die.

Lamech
2009-09-24, 08:54 AM
I for one think the cleric's plane shift can be a lot more deadly. (And no, it isn't coming back from 5-500 miles away from the suns center.)

PinkysBrain
2009-09-24, 10:12 AM
The variant of this is the Tinfoil Hat, favored by CO wizards everywhere. Wall of Iron + Fabricate yourself a solid metal conical teepee, then Shrink Item it into a stylish pointy wizard's hat. (Or capped cylinder, if you prefer a fez.) Advantage over the rock belt is that it grants you total concealment from all directions.
It has some risks the belt doesn't.

taltamir
2009-09-24, 10:24 AM
It has some risks the belt doesn't.

wouldn't both be very risky? the hat can crush you, especially if it falls off of your head. The belt can crush your teammates as it expands. Not to mention tear things apart...Also, not very good if you ever trip (it hits the floor, ergo, spell breaks)

PinkysBrain
2009-09-24, 11:16 AM
wouldn't both be very risky? the hat can crush you, especially if it falls off of your head.
Or drag you under water, or make featherfall completely futile, or trap you with the raging barbarian with a spellstoring ring of AMF, or or or.

The belt can crush your teammates as it expands. Not to mention tear things apart...Also, not very good if you ever trip (it hits the floor, ergo, spell breaks)
I'd class those more as inconveniences than risks.

Glyde
2009-09-24, 11:39 AM
Fox's Cunning is a good opener (If you're a wizard, which I'm assuming.) as it'll boost your save DCs

arguskos
2009-09-24, 12:21 PM
I for one think the cleric's plane shift can be a lot more deadly. (And no, it isn't coming back from 5-500 miles away from the suns center.)
Oh yes, I did forget to remove Plane Shift (and I really shoulda remembered, based on campaign restrictions on the planar cosmology :smallsigh:).

As for Baleful Polymorph, I actually was sad to see it go, because you're right, it's not a bad spell. However, any and every Polymorph-based or derivative effect is gone, save for things like Trollshape, and that means Baleful too. It's not quite fair to change the rules of magic to not permit powerful reshaping techniques like Polymorph and then say, "Oh, but THIS one is fine". Just something that verisimilitude demanded. I do try and be fair about such things. :smallwink:

Eldariel
2009-09-24, 12:37 PM
As for Baleful Polymorph, I actually was sad to see it go, because you're right, it's not a bad spell. However, any and every Polymorph-based or derivative effect is gone, save for things like Trollshape, and that means Baleful too. It's not quite fair to change the rules of magic to not permit powerful reshaping techniques like Polymorph and then say, "Oh, but THIS one is fine". Just something that verisimilitude demanded. I do try and be fair about such things. :smallwink:

I dunno, shifting shape to generate a much larger and more formidable creature is much different from forcing something to become a mouse or some such; I'd imagine a form change that makes an opponent infinitely weaker, provided the opponent doesn't manage to resist the spell, requires much less magic to work out.

arguskos
2009-09-24, 12:49 PM
Well, it's not due to balance with Baleful, but more that this campaign world doesn't actually have any way to force a shift in a creature's form. Things like Bull's Strength magically ADD strength or magically enhances their person, not change their form to be something else.

Polymorph has been removed due to balance and world limitations. This means EVERYTHING is gone, save for rather limited effects such as Alter Self (nerfed severely and higher level) and things that shift you into a SINGLE form, such as Trollshape.

If you'd like to know the reason why, I'm happy to take this to PMs, so as not to jack up taltamir's thread. :smallsmile:

taltamir
2009-09-24, 01:21 PM
Taking a balista bolt, shrinking it to crossbow size, choosing the "solid" option, and saying the command word if you hit (expanding it within the enemy's body) sounds interesting. so does carrying 4 tons of something and having it weigh only 2 pounds. mmm, actually, I think an enemy's body or armor counts as a "solid surface" and would undo the transformation upon hit... besides, imagine the enemy's moral when a crossbolt zooms by, and then suddenly becomes a ballista bolt that leaves a hole in the wall 1 foot across :)

I think rather than "belts" or hats, Ill just have multiple walls of stone / iron / fire / whatever shrunk into plush form, and distributed to party members.
Saying a single word is a free action. to prevent accidents I can encase them in a bottle... without encasement, party member or I throws it on ground and it grows. With encasement, we put it, align it properly, then I say the command word.

Oh, I forgot to say... I have a starting int of 20, and I already got greater spell focus transmutation...

So my base DC is +7 and it is gonna go higher. Spells with a saving throw are looking might interesting right now.

Keld Denar
2009-09-24, 01:36 PM
WHIRLING BLADE YO!!!!!!

My favorite Transmutation spell EVAR!

Kinda specialized though, better for gishes than straight wizards, but really useful if you have a Dragonfire Inspiration bard in your party.

Slow, Haste, and Fly are so freakin amazing that its difficult to concentrate. Slow in particular, is way better than it should be, especially when you are facing monsters with multiattack or anyone who TWFs. Being denied a full attack is nearly crippling. Haste adds so much damage per round, assuming a decent party, that its also rather rediculous. Fly has so much use as a utility spell and as a combat spell, making it nearly invaluable.

taltamir
2009-09-24, 01:51 PM
yes, I got whirling blade, I am IMPRESSED. :)

Question, does using a two handed weapon for whirling blade means adding 1.5x str (or int) bonus to damage? because you add it to your attack normally. (well, at your choice str or your primary casting ability)

Question2, can you use whirling blade with an oversized weapon? is there a penalty to it?

arguskos
2009-09-24, 01:53 PM
yes, I got whirling blade, I am IMPRESSED. :)

Question, does using a two handed weapon for whirling blade means adding 1.5x str (or int) bonus to damage? because you add it to your attack normally. (well, at your choice str or your primary casting ability)

Question2, can you use whirling blade with an oversized weapon? is there a penalty to it?
Q1: Yes.
Q2: Also yes. It's just like making an attack roll, but at range. (NOTE: Am away from books, may be misremembering, listen to Keld)

Keld Denar
2009-09-24, 02:06 PM
You WOULD get 1.5x your Str if you used it 2handed. You would NOT get 1.5x your Int using it 2handed, since there is no rule provision to do so. Just the same as you can't get 1.5x dex to damage as a Champion of Corellon with an Elven Courblade, only Str gets multiplied because its called out that way. As written.

Unless arguskos wants to rule otherwise.

As far as oversized weapons, yea, you'd take the penalty. If you want to abuse oversized weapons, look at the spell Launch Bolt, then figure out what the damage for a colossal heavy crossbow bolt would be.

Whirling Blade is good if you have a weapon that can deliver an effect from a distance. I love Sudden Stunning (DMGII) on my Cha based casters like Sorcerers and Bards, but its less effective for wizards. If you got a +1 Spell Storing weapon, especially one with a high crit threat range (Scimitar, if you have proficiency), you can use Whirling Blade to deliver a Vampiric Touch spell up to 60' away. It'll only affect one target though, regardless of how many people you smack up with your WB.

taltamir
2009-09-24, 02:06 PM
Q2, yes you can and yes there is a penalty?

nm. I saw the answer

arguskos
2009-09-24, 02:10 PM
You WOULD get 1.5x your Str if you used it 2handed. You would NOT get 1.5x your Int using it 2handed, since there is no rule provision to do so. Just the same as you can't get 1.5x dex to damage as a Champion of Corellon with an Elven Courblade, only Str gets multiplied because its called out that way. As written.

Unless arguskos wants to rule otherwise.
No, no, this is fine. Str increases, Int does not, as was intended. :smallsmile: Thanks for the deeper clarification Keld.

As for using highly oversized weapons, tal, do recall that we use encumbrance rules and VERY healthy doses of common sense. Just sayin'.

taltamir
2009-09-24, 02:19 PM
No, no, this is fine. Str increases, Int does not, as was intended. :smallsmile: Thanks for the deeper clarification Keld.

As for using highly oversized weapons, tal, do recall that we use encumbrance rules and VERY healthy doses of common sense. Just sayin'.

i was just being curious... i wasn't gonna REALLY do it :)

arguskos
2009-09-24, 02:20 PM
i was just being curious... i wasn't gonna REALLY do it :)
You seem to have a thing for oversized weapons, so I just figured I'd mention that common sense is the rule, as always. :smallwink:

taltamir
2009-09-24, 02:57 PM
Keld Denar... while it does not apply to my rearranger (common sense rules). Out of curiosity, by the raw, would a wizard casting whirling blade be able to use a much bigger weapon? would there be a penalty to to hit?

Arguskos, I imagine that if I use enlarge person on myself (and thus my weapons), that it is not an issue then (plus, its only one size category), right? (not optimal use for the spell obvious, there are better things i could do / cast on the weapon.)

Also, what is that awesome reach weapon that does 2d4 damage with 4x crit? I cannot find any such weapon in the SRD.

Dixieboy
2009-09-24, 02:59 PM
Isn't the concept of transmutation forcing something into a different form? :smallredface:

Keld Denar
2009-09-24, 03:17 PM
Whirling Blade works as if you were wielding the weapon that you use as the focus. So, if that weapon is inappropraitely sized, or you weren't proficient, you'd suffer the appropriate penalties, yet. So yea...no walking around with colossal heavy mercurial fullblades and expect a 2nd level spell to do 32d6 or whatever, with no save.

The best thing about WB, is that for gishes, its a ranged damage spell that scales. Because you can PA with it, and you'll probably have an enhanced weapon, the spell gets better. Also, since it doesn't have a save, the fact that its low level doesn't inhibit it. Its a gishes' Gunblade, if you will.

One of the REALLY REALLY good things about WB, is that it is only 2nd level spell. That means you can Quicken it for 1 charge with a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC), and 3 charges per day means 3 Quickened WBs per day. For the low low price of 15,000g, Circlet is a good investment for any Gish, and even works with Bard and Sorc based gishes, unlike MM Rods.

If you really want to be abusive, Dragon Mag 133, IIRC, has the Executioner's Mace, which is both slashing and bludgeoning. That means you can cast Greater Mighty Wallop on it to augement the damage, yet it still qualifies as a Whirling Bladable. Plus, it has a 2d6 base die size AND is martial. CL4 GMW makes it 3d6, CL8 GMW makes it 4d6, CL12 GMW makes it 6d6, CL16 GMW makes it 9d6 and CL20 GMW makes it 12d6, if i remember my weapon size increase charts right. ThAnd thats before PA or weapon enhancements. Its no Ubercharger, but its still no bad for a 60' line effect.

Korivan
2009-09-24, 03:29 PM
Don't forget Exctract Water Elemental. Deal up to 20d6 damage and get an elemental for a few rounds. (We even came up with a air elemental that burst from the targets lungs...same concept, different elemental).

arguskos
2009-09-24, 05:59 PM
Arguskos, I imagine that if I use enlarge person on myself (and thus my weapons), that it is not an issue then (plus, its only one size category), right? (not optimal use for the spell obvious, there are better things i could do / cast on the weapon.)
That works fine. I'm just saying that I WILL nix any attempt to do something silly like what Keld suggested with the Executioner's Mace or you throwing a Colossal+ Gold Mercurial Fullblade at someone or something insane.


Also, what is that awesome reach weapon that does 2d4 damage with 4x crit? I cannot find any such weapon in the SRD.
It is a Lucerne Hammer. You do not have proficiency in it, as it's a martial weapon. It's not on the SRD anyways (check Dragon Compendium).


Isn't the concept of transmutation forcing something into a different form? :smallredface:
Oh yes, it is indeed. That said, in this setting, transmutation only really works when dealing with non-living matter, so stone, mud, dirt, metal, gems, what have you. There are some spells that manipulate living matter, but not really in a good way (see: Disintegrate). Make more sense perhaps?

taltamir
2009-09-24, 06:01 PM
what is a gish?

extract water elemental looks nice :)

Keld Denar
2009-09-24, 06:03 PM
Gish is a fancy word for a fighter/mage type character. A character who augements his melee prowass with spellcasting. There are a lot of builds, depending on what you are looking for.

For an example of a gish, check out PHBII's Duskblade. Its relatively basic, but essentially a basic gish. Other builds including LOTS of multiclassing. The premise is the same though. Buff, beat, win.

arguskos
2009-09-24, 06:04 PM
what is a gish?

extract water elemental looks nice :)
A "gish" is a character that blends martial skill and magical ability, ie. a Fighter/Mage type character.

Extract Water Elemental is actually wonderful, but has been reschooled as part of an overhaul I'm working on of the school breakdowns, and is not avaliable to Rearrangers. It's been given to evocation specialists, since they are those who manipulate energy and elements, while transmutation specialists manipulate matter.

Korivan
2009-09-24, 08:52 PM
A "gish" is a character that blends martial skill and magical ability, ie. a Fighter/Mage type character.

Extract Water Elemental is actually wonderful, but has been reschooled as part of an overhaul I'm working on of the school breakdowns, and is not avaliable to Rearrangers. It's been given to evocation specialists, since they are those who manipulate energy and elements, while transmutation specialists manipulate matter.

Do feats and magical items that boost summoned creatures affect Extract Water Elemental.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-24, 08:55 PM
Don't forget Exctract Water Elemental. Deal up to 20d6 damage and get an elemental for a few rounds. (We even came up with a air elemental that burst from the targets lungs...same concept, different elemental).

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/cards/11019.jpg

Korivan
2009-09-24, 09:18 PM
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/cards/11019.jpg

LOLOLOLOL I even have that card and never even put the lung thing together. Nice one. Wheres a cookie icon thingy, you deserve it :smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2009-09-24, 09:20 PM
For levels 1-5:
0: w/e
1: feather fall, reduce person (medium or ranged rogues)*, enlarge person (trippers, grapplers, etc.)*
2: -
3: flame arrow, fly, haste, slow, shrink item (but only if you have a good plan)*
4: -
5: telekinesis

* See remark in parenthesis and look at the spell stats carefully before deciding to use.

I'm seeing a pattern in my latest characters. They're all getting feather fall and haste since they've proved so useful. I even plan on getting them for the character I plan on playing next, and he's a fighter.