Source of Outsiders

[The Neoclassic]

Where do outsiders come from? Devils, demons, celestials, whatever... I'm interested in the official D&D canon explanations, but alternative explanations or possibilities for other settings work too. I'm trying to figure out how it should work in my world, since I'm making my own set of Outer Planes that are based on deity more than alignment.

[Starbuck_II]

Where do outsiders come from? Devils, demons, celestials, whatever... I'm interested in the official D&D canon explanations, but alternative explanations or possibilities for other settings work too. I'm trying to figure out how it should work in my world, since I'm making my own set of Outer Planes that are based on deity more than alignment.

Devils came from heaven at one time period.

[Tavar]

I believe that the cannon explanation is that they are spawned from the very planes themselves(I know it describes this as being true for Hell). Also, some can be born from fertil outsiders(like those Female Devils...whatever they're called).

[taltamir]

Where do outsiders come from? Devils, demons, celestials, whatever... I'm interested in the official D&D canon explanations, but alternative explanations or possibilities for other settings work too. I'm trying to figure out how it should work in my world, since I'm making my own set of Outer Planes that are based on deity more than alignment.

AFAIK, by canon they are "formed" from the "energies" of the various demi planes. (aka, the plane of lawful evil, chaotic good, etc)

[SilveryCord]

Where do outsiders come from? Devils, demons, celestials, whatever... I'm interested in the official D&D canon explanations, but alternative explanations or possibilities for other settings work too. I'm trying to figure out how it should work in my world, since I'm making my own set of Outer Planes that are based on deity more than alignment.

This should actually be very helpful. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Plane)

Basically, with Planescape's Great Wheel, there are planes for every alignment. But not only are there planes for, say, Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil, but planes representing the intersections of adjacent alignments like Lawful Good and Neutral Good (Bytopia is the Neutral good / Lawful good plane where Gnomes and Garl Glittergold dwell, for example.)

[Yuki Akuma]

It... really depends on the outsider in question.

Some are born naturally. Eladrins, for example. They have limited lifespans - slightly longer than elves - and breed sexually.

Baatezu are partially made up of fallen angels and Archons, and partially transformed Petitioners - that is, people who go to hell when they die.

Demons are spawned from the infinite pits of the Abyss.

Modrons are formed from the Source - and they reproduce by fission. There's always a fixed number of Modrons.

Inevitables are manufactured.

Slaadi inject their eggs into other creatures and burst out of them, xenomorph-style.

And so on...

[KillianHawkeye]

Where do outsiders come from?

Well, when a mommy and a daddy outsider love each other a lot, they decide to have a little baby outsider, which gets delivered by the celestial/fiendish/axiomatic/anarchic stork. :smallwink:

Alternatively, they come from "outside". :smallbiggrin:

[The Neoclassic]

Thanks for the help everyone! Very good suggestions and ideas in here. On a related note: What happens to the outsiders when they die?

I'm thinking that "petitioners" (given different mechanics and names in my setting, but the same idea of souls of dead mortals) essentially "respawn" after a certain amount of time once killed, as they get new bodies but their souls float around while waiting.

Outsiders on the other hand... Well, they might get the same thing, or for some I may use the more traditional explanation of their essence getting reabsorbed into the plane upon "death."

[Vangor]

Where do outsiders come from?

Outside. As a d&d player, I've never ventured there myself, but I hear this is a horrifically bright world lit by the most massive fireball cast.

[FoE]

Outside. As a d&d player, I've never ventured there myself, but I hear this is a horrifically bright world lit by the most massive fireball cast.

The yellow eye! It burns ussss! It keeps usss from the Precious!

If we're talking 4E, demons are spawned of the Abyss, which was created when Tharizdun created it with a 'seed of evil' in his bid to take over the universe. The devils were created when an army of angels overthrew their god, who created the Nine Hells with his final curse.

[Zeta Kai]

Well, when a mommy outsider & a daddy outsider love each other very much, they give each other a special hug. And then you came out of mommy's belly! Yay!

Did you make boom-booms? Uh-oh! Boom-booms! Let's go change that smelly diaper.

It's okay, we'll get your sippy cup first, alright? Goody, let's go. :smalltongue:

[The Neoclassic]

See, I always imagined most outsiders as genderless. Maybe they instead bud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budding)? :smalltongue:

EDIT: For erinyes, succubi, and such, parthenogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis) actually might be cool and plausible, now that I think about it.

[hamishspence]

in the Demonomicon of Iggwilv series in Dragon Magazine (especially the Demogorgon article) it describes how the souls of CE mortals migrate to the Abyss, and get changed by the plane into demons- they spwan from the abyss, but what the spawn from is a mortal soul.

It also mentions how specific "sins" produce different demons- sloth- akiliths- envy- glabrezu- and so on.

[Lapak]

Thanks for the help everyone! Very good suggestions and ideas in here. On a related note: What happens to the outsiders when they die?

I'm thinking that "petitioners" (given different mechanics and names in my setting, but the same idea of souls of dead mortals) essentially "respawn" after a certain amount of time once killed, as they get new bodies but their souls float around while waiting.

Outsiders on the other hand... Well, they might get the same thing, or for some I may use the more traditional explanation of their essence getting reabsorbed into the plane upon "death."If you're going down this road, I'll suggest an alternate cosmology:

In some D&D settings, the gods are powered by faith: the more followers a god has, the more powerful that god is. Outsiders are a variation on this theme: rather than being created or empowered by the energy of conscious worship, Outsiders are created and empowered by the subconscious desires that are suppressed. Most of these are random, base, and ephemeral: these incarnate as demons. Some, fewer in number, are more organized feelings of aggression or the will to dominate: these become devils. Some, fewer still, rise from the unconscious feelings of altruism or goodwill that reside in all of us: these become celestials.

Once they are created, all Outsiders draw on a particular, specific wellspring of unconscious 'worship': a particular demon might feed on the desire to kill out of revenge, a particular devil might feed on feelings of greed for land ownership, a given celestial might be supported by the desire to heal the wounds of children. In all cases, this is the subconscious urge - consciously expressed desires support the gods. Depending on how well they embody and support that desire on the Prime Material, they rise through the ranks of their plane. If killed, they will eventually reform, because the power that created them is still being generated at all times.

[BenTheJester]

Most Devils(barring the original ones and the occasionnal fallen angel) come from corrupted/bought souls who transform into a lemure after being awfully tortured.

The they can start evolving(cue pokémon reference) once they reach enough power, into the next ranked devil.

[Jack_Simth]

Thanks for the help everyone! Very good suggestions and ideas in here. On a related note: What happens to the outsiders when they die?
By RAW in D&D 3.5? If they were summoned to where they were killed, they reform on their home plane 24 hours later. Any other means, and they're dead-dead (no afterlife for them).

Sourcing:
From the Outsider Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType):
"Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be."

From the Summoning Subschool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning):
"A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again."

[Blacky the Blackball]

Where do outsiders come from? Devils, demons, celestials, whatever... I'm interested in the official D&D canon explanations, but alternative explanations or possibilities for other settings work too. I'm trying to figure out how it should work in my world, since I'm making my own set of Outer Planes that are based on deity more than alignment.

Well, since you haven't specified which version you're talking about - and since no-one has given the 4e explanation yet - here it is...

There are lots of little details and snippets of information in various books, but the basic sequence of events is (and I'm doing this from memory, so I may have got a couple of details wrong):


In the beginning was the raw Elemental Chaos. Out of this formed - because it must eventually - the Astral Sea, a place of order.
Angels are beings of order that arose naturally in the Astral Sea, and Elementals are beings of chaos that arose naturally in the Elemental Chaos.
The biggest of the Elementals - Primordials - came to dominate the Elemental Chaos.
The Gods came to rule the Astral Sea.
The Primordials made the Prime Material Plane out of elemental matter, and made the Feyrealm and the Shadowfell semi-accidentally from leftover bits.
The Gods saw the Prime Material Plane and liked it, and created sentient races to populate it.
The Primordials got bored with the Prime Material, and - also upset about the Gods' interference - wanted to destroy it and return it to chaos.
The Gods protected the Prime Material and started warring with the Primordials for control over it.
At some point (during this war?) Tharizdun was searching around (for weapons that could be used against the Primordials?) and found Pure Evil.
Pure Evil drove Tharizdun mad, making him want to destroy the entire universe, and he threw it into the Elemental Chaos.
Pure Evil corrupted the part of Elemental Chaos where it landed, forming the Abyss.
The Elementals in the area that became the Abyss were transformed into Demons, and a couple of Primordials were transformed into Demon Lords like Orcus and Demogorgon.
Tharizdun hoped that the Demons would become his followers and help him destroy the universe; but (although they are interested in death and destruction) they showed no interest in following him - so he left them to their own devices.
The other Gods imprisoned Tharizdun to prevent him from destroying everything.
The Prime Material Plane (or perhaps just the Earth) became sentient, and forced the Gods and Primordials off, to continue their fighting elsewhere (this sentient-force-of-nature is the source of the Primal power used by Druids, Barbarians, Wardens and Shamans).
The Gods mostly won the war, and the remaining Primordials were either imprisoned by them or simply lost interest in the Prime Material Plane.
A bunch of Angels - led by Asmodeus - conspired to murder their God and Asmodeus stole his power.
Asmodeus and his Angel followers were cursed by the rest of the Gods and became Devils. Their part of the Astral Plane becomes Hell and they are (mostly) imprisoned in it, wanting revenge on the Gods.


So by 4e canon, Angels form naturally in the Astral Sea, and if killed their life-force will return to the Astral Sea to be eventually made into new Angels.

Elementals form naturally in the Elemental Chaos, and if killed their life-force will return to the Elemental Chaos to be eventually made into new Elementals.

Demons are either Elementals who have either wandered into the Abyss and become corrupted or Elementals who have formed in the Abyss in an already corrupted state.

Devils are Angels that have been cursed by the Gods for Deicide. As far as I know there's no canon explanation of where new Devils come from or what happens to dead Devils. Their life-force probably returns to Hell and is eventually made into new Devils. Maybe some are occasionally redeemed and become normal Angels, and maybe some other Angels are occasionally punished by the Gods and become Devils.

[hewhosaysfish]

For erinyes, succubi, and such, parthenogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis) actually might be cool and plausible, now that I think about it.

Why would Erinyeseseses require parthenogenesis to reproduce?



Unlike other devils, erinyes appear attractive to humans, resembling very comely women or men. An erinyes stands about 6 feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds.

Emphasis mine.
People seem to just lassume that Erinyii are all female because of the picture...

Also, Succubi can all change shape at will, so they don't really need parthenogenesis either...

[Talya]

Where do outsiders come from?

Well, Neoclassic, when two outsiders love each other very much...


(Oh come on, someone had to say it!)

[The Neoclassic]

Why would Erinyeseseses require parthenogenesis to reproduce?

I didn't say require. Otherwise, they'd have half-human kids wouldn't they? Ewww. :smallyuk: More seriously, that's going on the assumption that they're all female. I haven't decided in my setting to make them basically like diabolical versions of succubi (and hence all or almost all female) or something more unique.



People seem to just lassume that Erinyii are all female because of the picture...

See above.


Also, Succubi can all change shape at will, so they don't really need parthenogenesis either...

What, so one could change into a male and impregnate a female one? Would the sperm remain viable once they changed back? These are the questions of gender-bending magic. :smallsigh:

[Cieyrin]

Well, Neoclassic, when two outsiders love each other very much...


(Oh come on, someone had to say it!)

Little late to the party, Talya. You're the 3rd in thread to point that out. :smalltongue:

[Cieyrin]

I didn't say require. Otherwise, they'd have half-human kids wouldn't they? Ewww. :smallyuk: More seriously, that's going on the assumption that they're all female. I haven't decided in my setting to make them basically like diabolical versions of succubi (and hence all or almost all female) or something more unique.

Yeah, they have Alus and Cambions. Cambions are pretty typical half-demons but Alus are more like their mothers.


What, so one could change into a male and impregnate a female one? Would the sperm remain viable once they changed back? These are the questions of gender-bending magic. :smallsigh:

That's a question for the Book of Erotic Fantasy, as I know from my brief reading of it that it does cover that topic. <_<;;

[Altair_the_Vexed]

There's another answer, aside from D&D canon: Outsiders come from wherever you like, it's your game.

In a game I'm involved in, the non-elemental Outsiders came into being when sentient beings on the Prime Material imagined them. The Astral Plane is peopled with the dreams of mortals - some of which are constant enough to take on life of their own. Around these consensual entities, new realms formed, separate to the Astral - the outer planes.

You can make anything up. It's D&D.

[kwanzaabot]

Here's how it works in my campaign. ;)

Before the universe was created, there was a formless, primordial chaos. The head honcho Overdeity was born from it, and decided, "Hey, this Chaos stuff kinda stinks". So he gave it a physical form, which created my equivalent of Tiamat.
Like the Overdeity, other beings were born from the Primordial Chaos- demons and devils. They didn't have any fixed form, and when they were made solid, they were understandably peeved off. They can't enter the Material Plane, instead they manifest themselves by possessing a mortal, or (in the case of Incubi and Succubi) impregnating a mortal (male or female, it doesn't matter) with themselves.

On the other hand, Good Outsiders (i.e. angels) are simply the messengers and servants of the gods, and are created whenever a god needs something done.

[Yuki Akuma]

There are male succubi. They're called incubi.

And yes, anything that can change sex at will (such as changelings or succubi) can impregnate a female if they decide to be male for a while.

One assumes they can't become male if they become pregnant...

[AslanCross]

In Fiendish Codex II, the reproduction of devils is explained.

1. Only unique devils (named ones like Asmodeus) can sexually reproduce.
2. The others cannot reproduce with EACH OTHER---however, those with sexual characteristics can reproduce with mortals.
3. Devils do have a "reproductive system" of sorts---it's a fleshy mass with embryonic forms of the various devil types. Whenever they get promoted (or demoted), an embryo of the form they are changing into rapidly swells and grows into its full size and explosively emerges from the original body.

[Chrono22]

Well, the name should be a big hint. They are from the "outside", whatever that means.
What plane an outsider originates from is the one he is sent back to if banished- this implies to me that outsiders native to a plane have some intrinsic connection to that plane. This does not mean, however, that the a creature of the outsider type be native to any plane.
In my DnD games, there are a small number of outsiders whose origins are in
(out?) the far realm. All the normal outsiders, the denizens of the planes, have their origins in their respective planes.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes, you can get Outsiders from the Far Realm. But most creatures there are Abberations. And when you banish a creature from the Far realm... that's where they go!

The Far Realm is really just a huge collection of almost-planes, and planar travel works more-or-less the same there.

[Chrono22]

The far realm is a bit more than that. It's a realm of conflict.
Consider for a moment what a plane truly is- notice that they all seem to gravitate around certain concepts? Law, chaos, good, evil, the classical elements, positive, negative... each represents a set of ideals. Since ideas can physically manifest in the far realm, it stands to reason that a clumping of similar ideas/ideals will create a pocket. It's my opinion that the largest of these pockets eventually became the planes.
As for planar travel working normally in the far realm- I also disagree. I could explain why in detail, but I think it would take this thread further off topic so I'll end this post.

[Yuki Akuma]

...No, that's not what the Far Realm is.

The Far Realm is every plane that doesn't, or can't, exist. It's a seething mass of unreality. It has 'layers' like real planes, but these 'layers' are defined by how 'close' they are to the real multiverse.

The denizens of the Far Realm either want to make the Great Wheel like their layer, or make their layer like the Great Wheel. They hope that if they do this they'll become real. There's no evidence that they will, but, then, no evidence that they won't, either.

There's no Good or Evil or Chaos or Law in the Far Realm - everything is True Neutral (although it would be closer to the mark to say they don't have alignments at all).

And, yes, planar magic can get kinda screwy in the Far Realm - most magic does - but you can Banish something back there easily enough.

[Chrono22]

...No, that's not what the Far Realm is.
Go on..? I mean, if you have a reason for claiming my post was fallacious, then please tell it.


The Far Realm is every plane that doesn't, or can't, exist. It's a seething mass of unreality. It has 'layers' like real planes, but these 'layers' are defined by how 'close' they are to the real multiverse.
The first part about nonexistence is semantics. If it doesn't exist, you can't go there. Unless it does exist.
The layers part is just flat out wrong. The "reality" of the layers doesn't increase or decrease progressively. It's pretty random.


The denizens of the Far Realm either want to make the Great Wheel like their layer, or make their layer like the Great Wheel. They hope that if they do this they'll become real. There's no evidence that they will, but, then, no evidence that they won't, either.
I think lumping all of the denizens together makes this statement false. Many of the denizens of the far realm are mindless freaks with no comprehension of any existence but their own.
As for the sentients of the far realm- what could possibly motivate them to want to make the planes and the far realm similar? I can't really see your reasoning in this matter.


There's no Good or Evil or Chaos or Law in the Far Realm - everything is True Neutral (although it would be closer to the mark to say they don't have alignments at all).
OH.. I see now. You are making references to 4e's crappy alignment/cosmology.
Well, that would explain the disconnect between our viewpoints of the far realms.


And, yes, planar magic can get kinda screwy in the Far Realm - most magic does - but you can Banish something back there easily enough.
Banish requires that the creature have a plane of origin, and furthermore, a destination to be returned to. The layers of the far realm are constantly merging and splitting. This makes both the origin and destination indeterminable. So I would say, banishing a creature of the far realms does not work on those grounds.

If you want to have a drawn out talk about the far realms, please PM me so that we can stop flooding this discussion.

[Yuki Akuma]

OH.. I see now. You are making references to 4e's crappy alignment/cosmology.
Well, that would explain the disconnect between our viewpoints of the far realms.

And yet I said True Neutral, rather than Unaligned. Hmmmm.

What? No. I'm working mostly off the stuff in the Manual of the Planes here (and lots of other book actually - the info on the Far Realm isn't stored all in one place, annoyingly). This is how I understand the 3.5 version of the Far Realm to work. :smalltongue:

Edit: Oh God. I hate this laptop's faulty keyboard. Work, damnit!

[hamishspence]

Actually, most Far Realm creatures with intelligence seem to be Neutral evil rather than True neutral. Depending on if you count Xoriat as The Far Realm (Its described in the same way) or not.

Uvuudaums (Epic Handbook) and Daelkyr (Eberron), are both NE.

Dragon Magazine 330 provides stats for several more Far Realm creatures- generally Neutral or NE.

[Cieyrin]

Actually, most Far Realm creatures with intelligence seem to be Neutral evil rather than True neutral. Depending on if you count Xoriat as The Far Realm (Its described in the same way) or not.

Uvuudaums (Epic Handbook) and Daelkyr (Eberron), are both NE.

Dragon Magazine 330 provides stats for several more Far Realm creatures- generally Neutral or NE.

I guess WotC's definition of insanity is Neutral Evil. That's the vibe I'm getting here.

[hamishspence]

Sometimes.

Champions of Ruin stresses that insane+destructive = evil, regardless of whether the character fully understands the nature of their actions, with "Mad, I tell You" trope of Evil:

"the character is driven to actions that would horrify a demon"

Cyric, deity of madness in Faerun, is CE.

I think just being crazy is not enough though- they have to be destructive to others, as well.

[Fishy]

The first part about nonexistence is semantics. If it doesn't exist, you can't go there. Unless it does exist.

"This sentence is false."

"This sentence cannot be proved to be true."

"The word (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grelling-Nelson_paradox) that describes all words that do not describe themselves."

The Outer Planes run on belief and ideas. Elysium is literally made up of Love, Mechanus is literally made out of the concept of order. However, as modern mathematics proves, there are plenty of perfectly 'reasonable' beliefs and ideas that are just plain impossible. There are things that don't exist, that can't exist, but can nevertheless be 'belived in'. There are things that are in a weird limbo where it can't be proved whether they exist or not.

They live in the Far Realms.

There are more of them than there are of us.

They hate us.

[Volkov]

Some come from petitioners, others come from different sources. Asmodeus's private army of max hit dice pit fiends, comes from each drop of blood his actual body makes. And each time they bleed, max hit dice bearded devils come out. The army is so large that they could scour the entire greyhawk cosmology of life down to the tiniest microbe. Of course excluding themselves.

[Volkov]

The Far Realm is a very nasty place, anyone, even the greatest of mortals, archoelementals, outsider lords, and gods can very easily die there. Father Illymic can plunge an entire planet into total darkness and absolute zero by shutting off the sun, and he's a MINOR Far realm entity. The Far Realm is above everything from the normal cosmology in greyhawk. Which has been the "standard" cosmology of D&D from 1e-3.5e.

[Omegonthesane]

Some come from petitioners, others come from different sources. Asmodeus's private army of max hit dice pit fiends, comes from each drop of blood his actual body makes. And each time they bleed, max hit dice bearded devils come out. The army is so large that they could scour the entire greyhawk cosmology of life down to the tiniest microbe. Of course excluding themselves.

Where do these rules come from? The only stats I know of for Asmodeus himself are from BoVD and they never mention that feature.

Also, Bel is 'just' a pit fiend on steroids, so he should have the max hit dice bearded devils from every drop of blood he sheds.

[Volkov]

Where do these rules come from? The only stats I know of for Asmodeus himself are from BoVD and they never mention that feature.

Also, Bel is 'just' a pit fiend on steroids, so he should have the max hit dice bearded devils from every drop of blood he sheds.
Fiendish Codex II, and some older sources.

[Volkov]

And the blood of Asmodeus's pit fiends is very different from other pit fiends who had to get that position the hard way. Also Bel has the layer altering powers of an Arch-devil, as well as being on very good terms with Tiamat and Kurtlmak.

[The Neoclassic]

There are male succubi. They're called incubi.

I am aware of the existence of incubi. However, they are also far less common than subbubi.


And yes, anything that can change sex at will (such as changelings or succubi) can impregnate a female if they decide to be male for a while.

One assumes they can't become male if they become pregnant...

I don't see how where these assumptions are coming from. I'm not saying they aren't possible, but as far as I know, nowhere are these written in the core rules.

Far Realm: Sooo not going there. I'm simply not going to use it in my game. I'd rather focus on fun possibilities for Outer Planes.


Yeah, they have Alus and Cambions. Cambions are pretty typical half-demons but Alus are more like their mothers.

Yeah, but still not pure-bred succubi. Heh, maybe if genetics work properly, if enough half-fiends breed, they'll essentially end up with a portion of the kids being almost all fiend features again. :smallbiggrin:

That's a question for the Book of Erotic Fantasy, as I know from my brief reading of it that it does cover that topic. <_<;;[/QUOTE]

Yeah, sadly I don't have a copy. I'll have to just formulate my own explanation. I actually kinda like parthenogenesis, even as much as so many others seem to be pro-shape changing magic or whatever. I think I'll run with that, with occasional genetic diversity spread by the less common males. Heck, it might even vary plane by plane; devils of the same variety from different planes might have very similar personalities, power levels, and concentrations of evil/law, but reproduce differently. It's magic and as some deities might want to limit or control fiends (of the number thereof) and hence influence where/how more fiends are produced.


In Fiendish Codex II, the reproduction of devils is explained.

1. Only unique devils (named ones like Asmodeus) can sexually reproduce.
2. The others cannot reproduce with EACH OTHER---however, those with sexual characteristics can reproduce with mortals.
3. Devils do have a "reproductive system" of sorts---it's a fleshy mass with embryonic forms of the various devil types. Whenever they get promoted (or demoted), an embryo of the form they are changing into rapidly swells and grows into its full size and explosively emerges from the original body.

OK, cool. I doubt I'll do exactly that, but it's useful to know.