So, the Persians win?

[Berserk Monk]

In strip 680 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html), it shows two vaguely Greek warriors, one seated in a throne with a reptilian head impaled on a sword. The next panel shows two soldiers who look as though they are from some area of our ancient middle-east, one seated on said throne with the Greek guy's head on his sword. Rich, what's going on? Did the phrase "This is SPARTA!" not make complete sense to you?

[Charles Phipps]

In strip 680 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html), it shows two vaguely Greek warriors, one seated in a throne with a reptilian head impaled on a sword. The next panel shows two soldiers who look as though they are from some area of our ancient middle-east, one seated on said throne with the Greek guy's head on his sword. Rich, what's going on? Did the phrase "This is SPARTA!" not make complete sense to you?

The forces of universal human rights and civilization get their revenge on infanticide practicing military dictatorships, 3000 years later.

:smallamused:

[krossbow]

The forces of universal human rights and civilization get their revenge on infanticide practicing military dictatorships, 3000 years later.

:smallamused:

Indeed. everytime someone mentioned freedom in that movie i wanted to see a pan shot of the vast slave empire the spartans possessed to support their military fanaticism.

[MReav]

Indeed. everytime someone mentioned freedom in that movie i wanted to see a pan shot of the vast slave empire the spartans possessed to support their military fanaticism.

Guys, don't forget that it was a story told by a Spartan propagandist. Those bits will obviously be left out.

[Sewblon]

Neither Greece Nor Persia exist in OOTS; anything goes.

[Zevox]

Indeed. everytime someone mentioned freedom in that movie i wanted to see a pan shot of the vast slave empire the spartans possessed to support their military fanaticism.
Technically, the Spartans and other Greek city-states were motivated by a love of freedom in their resistance to the Persians. Just a narrow version of freedom, extending only to their own independence from other nations. Selfish lot that they were, they didn't have any problem with owning slaves, just with the prospect of becoming slaves themselves. But of course if the movie portrayed their idea of freedom as something more universal than that, it would be badly inaccurate indeed.

...and I have heard something else quite disturbing about that movie. I never saw it, so if someone could confirm this for me: did it portray the Spartans as defending democracy?

Zevox

[whitelaughter]

this week....

given we have (as near as we can tell) an ancient babylonian mythos running the continent, Persians may newcomers.
Besides, good luck getting the D&D rules to reflect a phalanx. And even if you can, one fireball will teach people not to use them.

[Berserk Monk]

this week....

given we have (as near as we can tell) an ancient babylonian mythos running the continent, Persians may newcomers.
Besides, good luck getting the D&D rules to reflect a phalanx. And even if you can, one fireball will teach people not to use them.

I think they have rules or a feat for a phalanx in Complete Warrior. Not sure how effective/realistic it is in terms of D&D.

[NerfTW]

Technically, the Spartans and other Greek city-states were motivated by a love of freedom in their resistance to the Persians. Just a narrow version of freedom, extending only to their own independence from other nations. Selfish lot that they were, they didn't have any problem with owning slaves, just with the prospect of becoming slaves themselves. But of course if the movie portrayed their idea of freedom as something more universal than that, it would be badly inaccurate indeed.

...and I have heard something else quite disturbing about that movie. I never saw it, so if someone could confirm this for me: did it portray the Spartans as defending democracy?

Zevox

Yes indeed, they did. It's not "disturbing", really, since the movie (and comic) is not meant to be accurate at all. It would be like complaining that Egypt wasn't founded by a time travelling Kang the Conqueror under the guise of Rama-tut. We know that, that's why it's fiction.


Also, to the OP, Sparta lost that battle, and the Roman empire fell later on.

[Berserk Monk]

Also, to the OP, Sparta lost that battle, and the Roman empire fell later on.

But the Greeks won the war. And if it's Rome, where are the barbarians?

[Acero]

In strip 680 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html) Did the phrase "This is SPARTA!" not make complete sense to you?

in short.....NO

[krossbow]

Yes indeed, they did. It's not "disturbing", really, since the movie (and comic) is not meant to be accurate at all. It would be like complaining that Egypt wasn't founded by a time travelling Kang the Conqueror under the guise of Rama-tut. We know that, that's why it's fiction.


I know! everyone knows it was ra and the gaul that did that, i mean seriously.

[Charles Phipps]

Yes indeed, they did. It's not "disturbing", really, since the movie (and comic) is not meant to be accurate at all. It would be like complaining that Egypt wasn't founded by a time travelling Kang the Conqueror under the guise of Rama-tut. We know that, that's why it's fiction.

Also, to the OP, Sparta lost that battle, and the Roman empire fell later on.

They didn't defend Democracy since it was all about Leonides being the awesome Patriarch figure that every boy wants as his Dad being betrayed by the Council of Vaguness.

But yes, don't blame 300 for supporting the Spartans. They've been lionized for that battle since Ancient Rome was a small Etruscan village.

[Zevox]

Yes indeed, they did. It's not "disturbing", really, since the movie (and comic) is not meant to be accurate at all. It would be like complaining that Egypt wasn't founded by a time travelling Kang the Conqueror under the guise of Rama-tut. We know that, that's why it's fiction.
No, I'd call that disturbing, as it's exactly the opposite of the reality. Spartans hated democracy. Their own government was an oligarchy with more in common with communism than any other form of government we're familiar with today. It would be like portraying Nazi Germany as a defender of civil rights - such a total reversal that it's an absolute wall-banger. Except that unlike with Nazi Germany, most people aren't exactly familiar with ancient Greek history, so no, most people who see the movie won't know that part of it is fiction.

Zevox

[Charles Phipps]

No, I'd call that disturbing, as it's exactly the opposite of the reality. Spartans hated democracy. Their own government was an oligarchy with more in common with communism than any other form of government we're familiar with today. It would be like portraying Nazi Germany as a defender of civil rights - such a total reversal that it's an absolute wall-banger. Except that unlike with Nazi Germany, most people aren't exactly familiar with ancient Greek history, so no, most people who see the movie won't know that part of it is fiction.

Again, it was very much a Pro-Monarchy movement given Leonides is the "absolutely right" guy while the "kinda-democratic looking" figures weren't. Comparing the Spartans to Nazi Germany though is pushing things as well. They're pretty bad even by the standards of the day but being a slave holding military dictatorship wasn't exactly uncommon either.

It's better to consider it essentially the first Apartheid state. Ironically, that's why Sparta fell. They couldn't expand because they didn't incorporate subject states into their national military.

[Zevox]

Again, it was very much a Pro-Monarchy movement given Leonides is the "absolutely right" guy while the "kinda-democratic looking" figures weren't. Comparing the Spartans to Nazi Germany though is pushing things as well. They're pretty bad even by the standards of the day but being a slave holding military dictatorship wasn't exactly uncommon either.

It's better to consider it essentially the first Apartheid state. Ironically, that's why Sparta fell. They couldn't expand because they didn't incorporate subject states into their national military.
I wasn't attempting to compare Sparta to Nazi Germany, just the portrayal of Sparta as a defender of democracy to the hypothetical portrayal of Nazi Germany as a defender of civil rights. Naturally, as bad as both Sparta and Nazi Germany were, Nazi Germany is on a different level from Sparta, what with the whole Holocaust matter and all, to name just the most obvious one.

Zevox

[krossbow]

I wasn't attempting to compare Sparta to Nazi Germany, just the portrayal of Sparta as a defender of democracy to the hypothetical portrayal of Nazi Germany as a defender of civil rights. Naturally, as bad as both Sparta and Nazi Germany were, Nazi Germany is on a different level from Sparta, what with the whole Holocaust matter and all, to name just the most obvious one.

Zevox


Personally i was more appalled by the absolute belittling of craftsman who went to war by leonidas as being inferior to spartans. THAT scene really annoyed me.

[Zevox]

Personally i was more appalled by the absolute belittling of craftsman who went to war by leonidas as being inferior to spartans. THAT scene really annoyed me.
Again, I didn't see the movie myself, but if the movie simply indicated that was the Spartan perspective, that would be pretty much accurate. As far as the Spartans were concerned, everyone was inferior to them, and craftswork was for their slaves to do so that they had the time to do their warrior training.

Zevox

[Nimrod's Son]

...and I have heard something else quite disturbing about that movie. I never saw it, so if someone could confirm this for me: did it portray the Spartans as defending democracy?
To be honest, I was so buffeted by the assault of laughably trite shouted dialogue and bad CGI in front of unconvincing brown paintings that I struggled to pay attention to anything that was supposed to be happening.

300 is the most awful movie.

[kirbsys]

I think that what may be the best part is the fact that historically, they lost the battle that the movie ends with. No wonder it ends at the opening charge.

[Scarlet Knight]

They didn't defend Democracy since it was all about Leonides being the awesome Patriarch figure that every boy wants as his Dad being betrayed by the Council of Vaguness.


Every boy who doesn't have a club foot you mean...

[Haven]

What is this "Persia" you speak of?

[Cracklord]

Or who hasn't been put through the state organised way of toughening them up.
Many Spartans were... very fond of children.

And to be honest, I was to busy making gay jokes during 300, Mystery science theatre style, to pay attention to the plot.
"This one is too young to have felt the touch of a women."
"Not really an issue, sir, that's not the way he rolls."

[Turkish Delight]

On the other hand, the strip faithfully represents the glorious Spartan victory over the...

...errr...

Lizardmen of Ionia?

Huh.

In any case, let's not inject too much meaning into 300 beyond wallowing in testosterone and CGI like a pig in filth.

[Berserk Monk]

What is this "Persia" you speak of?

It's this place where this prince guy came from and there was some kind of magic sands of time or something.

[Turkish Delight]

I think that what may be the best part is the fact that historically, they lost the battle that the movie ends with. No wonder it ends at the opening charge.

No they didn't. Battle of Plataea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Platea) was a major Greek victory. The Persians had a really lousy track record in Greece. Of course, the fact that most of what we know of that track record comes from Greek sources who weren't shy about exaggerating things for effect probably has something to do with that. Of course, 300 wasn't shy about taking those sources completely at face value and then adding even more insane exaggeration, making Xerxes into a seven foot drag queen leading an army of orcs.

Why do I get the feeling some mod will shut this thread down? A pity.

[Katana_Geldar]

I think they looked more like Bedouin than Persians anyway.

FTR, the Athenians were also "fond of boys". Hasn't anyone here read Plato?

[krossbow]

Why do I get the feeling some mod will shut this thread down? A pity.


probably because this thread is basically a 300 thread in the OotS forum instead of movies one now :smalltongue:

[Turkish Delight]

probably because this thread is basically a 300 thread in the OotS forum instead of movies one now :smalltongue:

Let's be fair, now. It's also a discussion of ancient Greek history in the OotS forum. :)

But as a history buff, I can't help myself.

[krossbow]

Let's be fair, now. It's also a discussion of ancient Greek history in the OotS forum. :)

But as a history buff, I can't help myself.


Hey, i'm enjoying myself too, but i'm a realist, and its only a matter of time before the sheriff comes calling :smalltongue:


I do have to admit though, i would like to find the the accounts of giant scythe clawed abominations on the persian sides :smallamused:. That guy was a little over the top.

[Zevox]

No they didn't. Battle of Plataea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Platea) was a major Greek victory.
Er, wasn't 300 about the Battle of Thermopylae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae)? :smallconfused:

Zevox

[Katana_Geldar]

I've always preferred Salamis anyway.

"My men have become women and my women have become men."

[Turkish Delight]

Er, wasn't 300 about the Battle of Thermopylae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae)? :smallconfused:

Zevox

It was, but that was accurately depicted with the Spartans all dying heroically at the end. The movie began and ended at Plataea with the narrator giving a rousing speech about their sacrifice to the (apparently all-Spartan) army before charging into battle and, presumably from what the movie shows us, victory.

[B. Dandelion]

In strip 680 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html), it shows two vaguely Greek warriors, one seated in a throne with a reptilian head impaled on a sword. The next panel shows two soldiers who look as though they are from some area of our ancient middle-east, one seated on said throne with the Greek guy's head on his sword. Rich, what's going on? Did the phrase "This is SPARTA!" not make complete sense to you?

My guess is no.


No. I didn't see the movie, never read the comic, have no intention of seeing either (I'm not a fan of Frank Miller's work). The exact quote about fighting in the shade is a reference to the historical battle that 300 is based on, but as a fan of classical history, I was aware of the quote long before 300 came along; the other "references" are mere coincidence (and not very coincidental at that).

[krossbow]

thinking about it, i have to respect rich for this. His refusal to use a "THIS IS SPARTA!" joke, to date, shows a clear refusal to stoop to the lowest common denominator of humor.

[Conuly]

thinking about it, i have to respect rich for this. His refusal to use a "THIS IS SPARTA!" joke, to date, shows a clear refusal to stoop to the lowest common denominator of humor.

What, bad puns? I thought he covered that - repeatedly! - with all the "sextant" jokes.

[Katana_Geldar]

Plataea was much more important strategically, as well as Mycale.

Yet my favourite battle in the Persian Wars is and always will be, Marathon.

[krossbow]

What, bad puns? I thought he covered that - repeatedly! - with all the "sextant" jokes.

puns are one thing, but you have to admit most memes are far worse.

[Elfey]

Again, I didn't see the movie myself, but if the movie simply indicated that was the Spartan perspective, that would be pretty much accurate. As far as the Spartans were concerned, everyone was inferior to them, and craftswork was for their slaves to do so that they had the time to do their warrior training.

Zevox

The movie had the Thespians disparaged, while in history they stood with the Spartans, had twice the numbers, but fought and died with them. It was a big enough feat that the Spartans declared Eternal Alliance with Thespia because of it.

[Charles Phipps]

Personally i was more appalled by the absolute belittling of craftsman who went to war by leonidas as being inferior to spartans. THAT scene really annoyed me.

To be fair, that is actually fairly true to life. Professional soldiers are usually superior to conscripts and volunteers, no matter what Valkyria Chronicles tells you.


The movie had the Thespians disparaged, while in history they stood with the Spartans, had twice the numbers, but fought and died with them. It was a big enough feat that the Spartans declared Eternal Alliance with Thespia because of it.

The narrator actually mentioned that. "Some stayed."

:smallbiggrin:

[Zevox]

It was, but that was accurately depicted with the Spartans all dying heroically at the end. The movie began and ended at Plataea with the narrator giving a rousing speech about their sacrifice to the (apparently all-Spartan) army before charging into battle and, presumably from what the movie shows us, victory.
Ah, I see. Like I've said before, I never saw the movie, so I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for clearing that up.

Zevox

[Herald Alberich]

It was, but that was accurately depicted with the Spartans all dying heroically at the end. The movie began and ended at Plataea with the narrator giving a rousing speech about their sacrifice to the (apparently all-Spartan) army before charging into battle and, presumably from what the movie shows us, victory.

"10,000 Spartans, leading 30,000 free Greeks", to quote Dilios. He was surrounded by the Spartans, of course, so they filled most of the screen.

[HandofShadows]

FTR, the Athenians were also "fond of boys". Hasn't anyone here read Plato?

You don't know how many people I have seen due their best to totaly ignore this fact (and many otehrs) because they think the Spartans where the "good guys" and could do no wrong. Geez some the slaves in Athens had more freedom that the "freemen" of Sparta. (The cops (called Lictors) in Athens where all slaves :smallamused: )

[73 Bits of Lint]

Guys, don't forget that it was a story told by a Spartan propagandist. Those bits will obviously be left out.
Except that a Spartan propagandist wouldn't be ashamed of the fact that his whole country was based on slavery, and so he wouldn't have omitted it. The Spartans loved being slaveholders (and slave killers, when they got bored) almost as much as they loved eating babies.

[Starbuck_II]

Except that a Spartan propagandist wouldn't be ashamed of the fact that his whole country was based on slavery, and so he wouldn't have omitted it. The Spartans loved being slaveholders (and slave killers, when they got bored) almost as much as they loved eating babies.

Eating babies really? Come on.

[Scarlet Knight]

The movie had the Thespians disparaged, while in history they stood with the Spartans, had twice the numbers, but fought and died with them. It was a big enough feat that the Spartans declared Eternal Alliance with Thespia because of it.

Ok, ok! We'll make it up to you! Form now on, in every play , whenever someone plays any soldier, we will call them Thespians!
:smallwink:

[Manachu Boy]

puns are one thing, but you have to admit most memes are far worse.

Oh c'mon, memes have their place. Admittedly that place has nothing to do with OotS at all but still...

[krossbow]

Oh c'mon, memes have their place. Admittedly that place has nothing to do with OotS at all but still...

If only xerxes had charged his laser...



off of that though, the only thing i really liked about the movie was how they used their shields as offensive weapons. thats probably the one thing i really disliked about 3.5; shields were completely useless. Unlike iron heroes or alot of other systems, shields and shield bashing just weren't very practical.

granted you would NOT use a shield of their size like it was a ninja weapon but still.

[Berserk Monk]

If only xerxes had charged his laser...



off of that though, the only thing i really liked about the movie was how they used their shields as offensive weapons. thats probably the one thing i really disliked about 3.5; shields were completely useless. Unlike iron heroes or alot of other systems, shields and shield bashing just weren't very practical.

granted you would NOT use a shield of their size like it was a ninja weapon but still.

Yeah, the Greek Hoplon is pretty awesome.

[Katana_Geldar]

You don't know how many people I have seen due their best to totaly ignore this fact (and many otehrs) because they think the Spartans where the "good guys" and could do no wrong. Geez some the slaves in Athens had more freedom that the "freemen" of Sparta. (The cops (called Lictors) in Athens where all slaves :smallamused: )

That is wrong on at least three different levels.

Lictors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lictor) were Roman, plebians or freedmen and more hired goons than cops.

And it's HopLITE! Some people actually know their classics on here! The Giant, for instance.

[Bibliomancer]

That is wrong on at least three different levels.

Lictors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lictor) were Roman, plebians or freedmen and more hired goons than cops.

And it's HopLITE! Some people actually know their classics on here! The Giant, for instance.

The Hoplon is the shield that the hoplites use (it's the root of the word hoplite).

I'd agree that those warriors looked more Bedouin than Persian (where were the chariots?).

From what little I've seen of 300 (1/3 or so of it), two things bugged me:

One, the Spartans did not use the phalanx (or spears, for that matter) and

Two, "Meet the Spartans" was more historically accurate than "300."

I must have missed the democratic overtones, although it is rich to portray Sparta as pro-democratic when they later get into a war with the world's first major democracy and bleed Greece dry for decades, weakening Greece to the point that the Greeks are easily conquered by the Macedonians and later the Romans.

[Katana_Geldar]

The Athenians actually realised how impractical it was to give everyone the vote, so only restricted it to males born in the city over the age of 30. I think this was a rather small percentage of the population compared to slave, women and foreigners.

[Bibliomancer]

The Athenians actually realised how impractical it was to give everyone the vote, so only restricted it to males born in the city over the age of 30. I think this was a rather small percentage of the population compared to slave, women and foreigners.

True, they weren't the first all-inclusive democracy in the world, but that didn't happen until the 1960's (and still hasn't if you're going to include foreigners in that list). However, they were the first major power to implement the idea, which then advanced in fits and starts for hundreds of years, only to get set back to the beginning in the Dark Ages (until the Magna Carta).

[Zevox]

The Athenians actually realised how impractical it was to give everyone the vote, so only restricted it to males born in the city over the age of 30. I think this was a rather small percentage of the population compared to slave, women and foreigners.
Actually, that was more because slaves and women pretty much had no significant rights anyway, and because, like most countries throughout history, they reserved a lot of rights, including having a say in how the city was run, for citizens of the city rather than foreigners. Plus they needed the slaves and women to do the real work to free up time for the men to participate in the democracy at all. The impracticality of having everyone vote was why they had things like a set number of the population chosen at random from each deme to serve on the assembly each year rather than literally having the entire city vote when voting occurred.

Zevox

[Dacia Brabant]

Huh, I thought that the first group pictured in 680 looked more like vaguely Near Eastern soldiers, maybe Babylonian or Phoenician, and the second group looked like Bedouin or Arabs. Considering the Gods of the West (in the Order of the Scribble crayon pages) were all Mesopotamian while the "Greek" Gods of the East were all annihilated, and this is the western continent, well I'd say that Sparta this is not.

:smallwink:


The Athenians actually realised how impractical it was to give everyone the vote, so only restricted it to males born in the city over the age of 30. I think this was a rather small percentage of the population compared to slave, women and foreigners.

Less than 10 percent in the time of Thucydides, which is still pretty radical compared to hereditary monarchic or aristocratic rule. And for what it's worth, metics could do pretty well for themselves despite not being citizens; Aristotle was one.

[homeosapiens]

I d like to say three things.

1. Zevox -nice new avatar.
2. In the movie - 33k of free greeks.
3. All inclusive democracy in Europe was in most countries in 1918. Just few restrictions about sex stayed in France(no women in senat till after the war) and England(age 30 to vote till 1928, female lords around mid fifties), completely none left after the war. Thats just from memory i ll ad sth after i take a nap. And you are not that into books Bibliomancer :-P .

[Turkish Delight]

I'd agree that those warriors looked more Bedouin than Persian (where were the chariots?).

I think what prompted the comment is that they appear like the Persians from 300. And given that 300's vision of an elite Persian warrior was something like this:

http://www.payvand.com/news/07/mar/Evil-Persians-300.jpg

...I think we can say the thread is restricted purely to the movie version of the Persian army, in which it doesn't matter what culture they technically come from so long as they look like spooky evil brown people.

[krossbow]

I think what prompted the comment is that they appear like the Persians from 300. And given that 300's vision of an elite Persian warrior was something like this:

http://www.payvand.com/news/07/mar/Evil-Persians-300.jpg

...I think we can say the thread is restricted purely to the movie version of the Persian army, in which it doesn't matter what culture they technically come from so long as they look like spooky evil brown people.


they look more like they escaped from japan to me really. that mask just screams it.

[Herald Alberich]

they look more like they escaped from japan to me really. that mask just screams it.

The Rifftrax of the film agrees with you:


Bill: So, they're really pre-ninja ninjas.
Mike: In pre-kabuki kabuki masks.
Kevin: And using pre-samurai samurai swords.

I might have Bill and Kevin's names switched.

[HandofShadows]

That is wrong on at least three different levels.

Sorry I was very tired when I typed that and put the wrong name in. However, the rest of the information was correct (Here (http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sirrobhitch.suffolk/portland%20state%20university%20greek%20civilizati on%20home%20page%20v2/docs/7/kirsten.html)). So that makes me only one part wrong and you get the other two parts.

[Scarlet Knight]

You know, this thread inspires me to add a new magical item to my game: The Thong of Sparta! +4 to charisma, +2 to AC, no armor penalty but cannot be added to anything heavier than a breastplate. Can be used as a +1 sling in an emergency (+4 vs giant penguins) :smallwink:

[rewinn]

No they didn't. Battle of Plataea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Platea) was a major Greek victory. The Persians had a really lousy track record in Greece. Of course, the fact that most of what we know of that track record comes from Greek sources who weren't shy about exaggerating things for effect probably has something to do with that. Of course, 300 wasn't shy about taking those sources completely at face value and then adding even more insane exaggeration, making Xerxes into a seven foot drag queen leading an army of orcs.

One wonders why the Persians would care about Greece all that much. It might be nice to have, but its great defensive terrain might make it more-or-less a target of opportunity, not really worth spending a lot of troops on.

IIRC Persia did pretty well without Greece until the Mongols hit. Is it possible that Greece's chronicler exaggerated the size of the army sent against it?

[tribble]

No, I'd call that disturbing, as it's exactly the opposite of the reality. Spartans hated democracy. Their own government was an oligarchy with more in common with communism than any other form of government we're familiar with today. It would be like portraying Nazi Germany as a defender of civil rights - such a total reversal that it's an absolute wall-banger. Except that unlike with Nazi Germany, most people aren't exactly familiar with ancient Greek history, so no, most people who see the movie won't know that part of it is fiction.

Zevox

Sparta, being run by a pair of kings, was more like a duarchy.

[Aris Katsaris]

One wonders why the Persians would care about Greece all that much.

In real history, the Persian invasion of Greece began after the Greek city-states had supported the (failed) uprising in the Greek colonies in Asia Minor against the Persian overlords.


did it portray the Spartans as defending democracy?

No, it didn't. Despite what others have mentioned in this thread, I listened very carefully and the word "democracy" is thankfully never mentioned in the film.

The words that are mainly mentioned are "freedom" and "law". Never democracy. Checking from an online transcript right now, some key passages are:
"And no Spartan, subject or citizen, man or woman, slave or king is above the law."
"No retreat. No surrender. That is Spartan law. And by Spartan law, we will stand and fight. And die."

The movie WAS horrible, in many many ways. But let's not bash it for things it didn't do. It NEVER portrayed Sparta as supporting democracy. It portrayed it as a country where even the king had to obey the law -- unlike the Persian empire where the king was god and whose word was the law.

That's historically accurate. Sparta had moved beyond the idea of absolute monarchy that Persia still held onto, and so in many ways it *was* more progressive than Persia.

It's probably an irony that it ended up needing Alexander, who WAS an absolute monarch, to destroy Persia's superpower once and for all... while the democracy of Athens and oligarchy of Sparta ended fighting each other to mutual decay.

[Aris Katsaris]

Sparta, being run by a pair of kings, was more like a duarchy.

By the time of Leonidas the power of the two kings was basically that of generals -- I believe they had no powers outside of war, and they didn't even choose their wars. Leonidas was less like Bush or Obama in power and more like Petraeus.

[Katana_Geldar]

In real history, the Persian invasion of Greece began after the Greek city-states had supported the (failed) uprising in the Greek colonies in Asia Minor against the Persian overlords.


There was also the embarrasment of the First Persian War, like at Marathon.

[krossbow]

One wonders why the Persians would care about Greece all that much. It might be nice to have, but its great defensive terrain might make it more-or-less a target of opportunity, not really worth spending a lot of troops on.



Why did napolean or Germany want Russia? The point of conquering is to gain control over an area so you can wave your flag around and feel important. Such is the driving thought, ultimately, of most people who try to establish empires. Personal Glory.
Yes, logic will dictate which area to conquer first, but inevitably what drives them is essentially the same desire of ghengis khan; "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation of their women!"
Any empire inevitably springs from that core thought. It may be altered slightly in the leader's mind, but their driving force is one of proving themselves better than everyone else in the world; essentially, a madness, a desire to prove oneself essentially as god.

[Turkish Delight]

Is it possible that Greece's chronicler exaggerated the size of the army sent against it?

Not merely possible, almost certainly the case. Ancient Historians often didn't let the truth get in the way of a good story. Just check the difference between what Herodotus says about the Persians numbers and the modern consensus on the wiki page for either Plataea or Thermopylae, though especially the latter. Herodotus claims 5 million assembled by Xerxes to invade Greece, an insanely huge force to keep supplied and fed even today. The modern consensus puts it to a saner 200,000, still massive by any standards but at least comprehensible.

300, of course, also doesn't like to see truth get in the way of a good story, so it's Persian army is the same impractically huge one suggested by ancient writers.

[Berserk Monk]

Huh, I thought that the first group pictured in 680 looked more like vaguely Near Eastern soldiers, maybe Babylonian or Phoenician, and the second group looked like Bedouin or Arabs. Considering the Gods of the West (in the Order of the Scribble crayon pages) were all Mesopotamian while the "Greek" Gods of the East were all annihilated, and this is the western continent, well I'd say that Sparta this is not.

So, this is madness?:smallconfused:

[krossbow]

So, this is madness?:smallconfused:

madness?


THIS!
IS!
SPARTA!

[Aldrakan]

By the time of Leonidas the power of the two kings was basically that of generals -- I believe they had no powers outside of war, and they didn't even choose their wars. Leonidas was less like Bush or Obama in power and more like Petraeus.

Well yes, but that would require them to put in the ephors. You know, as the elected government who actually ruled the country rather than as a group of depraved priests living on a mountain somewhere.

[Lkctgo]

I know! everyone knows it was ra and the gaul that did that, i mean seriously.

Har, Har, Har.

[Asta Kask]

In real history, the Persian invasion of Greece began after the Greek city-states had supported the (failed) uprising in the Greek colonies in Asia Minor against the Persian overlords.

One of the main grievances was that the European Greeks had burned the city of Sardis to the ground. Darius swore an oath to take revenge for this and sent an army to Marathon, where he lost. He was about to send another army, but Egypt rebelled, and Egypt was much, much more important than Greece. His son Xerxes gathered an army from all corners of the Persian empire and invaded Greece, slaughtered the Greeks at Thermopylae, lost the sea battle at Salamis, took Athens and then pulled back. The next year, his general (Marandos? I can't remember his name) almost won at Plataea but was defeated. Sparta then retreated into isolation while Athens took the fight to Asia.

The primary advantage of the Greeks was their heavy infantry, which fought well in hill country. The primary advantage of the Persians was their cavalry - mainly horse archers, which fought well on the plains. So, if the battle was fought in the hills, the Greeks won. If the battle was fought on the plains, the Persians won.

[Cracklord]

madness?


THIS!
IS!
SPARTA!


No it's not.
I'm pretty sure the thread has made that clear.

[krossbow]

No it's not.
I'm pretty sure the thread has made that clear.



logic means nothing to spartans.

[Sedgewood]

making Xerxes into a seven foot drag queen

This, and only this, is what convinced me to watch 300 in the first place.

[Berserk Monk]

This, and only this, is what convinced me to watch 300 in the first place.

What???:smalleek:

[Lvl45DM!]

yeah sedgewood...youre weird lol
what convinced me to watch was the way 300 was written with lots of blood around it, i made up my mind at that point

[krossbow]

Eh, some friends bought it one night so i watched it since it was free. I initially hated the infamous "THIS IS SPARTA!" scene for many reasons. Cheering at the messenger's death is a horrible double standard. Sure its okay for *us* to do so because they deserved it right? Except anyone can claim that. Not killing the messenger can be seen as one of the CORES of civilization itself; to kill the messenger, no matter what message the bring, is to unabashedly embrace barbarism.


However, i did like the scene with the mutated looking dude who was chained up until they released him; i was kind of hoping it would turn into a 300 version of power rangers, with them sending a different mutant each scene at them (like the scythe arm dude) in a long chain of monster of the week fight scenes, but was dissapointed in them devolving into blatant glorification of seemingly unstoppable spartans, who only die to ridiculous deus ex machinas.

[Turkish Delight]

Not killing the messenger can be seen as one of the CORES of civilization itself; to kill the messenger, no matter what message the bring, is to unabashedly embrace barbarism.

It's historically accurate, though. The Spartans really did kill the messenger by throwing him in a well. The main thing is that the movie tried to add all kinds of spin to make it not come across as moral dissonance and failed.

Really, I'm not certain how anyone could possibly portray ancient Spartan society in even the slightest faithfulness and not end up with people wondering why we should be cheering these people on. The movie/comic tried to do it by hiding all the slaves, hiding the values dissonance on legally mandated love affairs between men and young boys, giving the Persians a major villain upgrade that basically turned them into a bunch of LotR-style orcs, etc...but they still kept the slaughter of 'unfit' children and the focus on children being born and bred exclusively for war, which will fit fine with your morals if you were raised in the freaking Hitler Youth, but should probably not fit all that well with anyone raised in a modern Democratic society with any respect at all for the individual.

[Asta Kask]

It's historically accurate, though. The Spartans really did kill the messenger by throwing him in a well. The main thing is that the movie tried to add all kinds of spin to make it not come across as moral dissonance and failed.

Even the Spartans felt bad for it afterwards and sent some men to the Persians to wipe away the blood-guilt. Xerxes refused to help them - why make the enemy feel better?

[Gnomish Lab]

True, they weren't the first all-inclusive democracy in the world, but that didn't happen until the 1960's


Really?
Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage , one can see that Japan, for example, implemented universal suffrage at 1945 ; some of the "newborn" nations (like Israel, for example) have universal suffrage since their foundation - in many cases also before the 60'.

[Yora]

Yeah, but would you consider that example an all-inclusive democracy?

Really, I'm not certain how anyone could possibly portray ancient Spartan society in even the slightest faithfulness and not end up with people wondering why we should be cheering these people on. The movie/comic tried to do it by hiding all the slaves, hiding the values dissonance [...]
The comic and the movie did not try to emulate the real world state Sparta in even a slightly faithful way.
That's like complaining that Matrix did not portray the US faithfully.

[Turkish Delight]

The comic and the movie did not try to emulate the real world state Sparta in even a slightly faithful way.
That's like complaining that Matrix did not portray the US faithfully.

Well, they did make an attempt, kinda. As I say, Sparta really was an extremely warrior-based culture and they really did kill off their 'unfit' children. Both of these things are portrayed in the film and neither one exactly sits well with people whose values don't lean towards goose-stepping.

Basically, leaving out the disreputable things unmentioned in the film, it's a group of completely ethnically homogeneous white guys who kill off their children for being unfit and are born and raised almost solely to slaughter people and die gloriously in battle for the city-state. They then proceed to yell about 'Freedom!' for the rest of the film. It would be a really creepy message if the whole film surrounding it weren't so completely absurd. As it is, it's just one more of the unintentionally hilarious aspects of the movie, not particularly worrisome because anyone who gets their moral values from 300 is probably a lost cause to start with.

[Asta Kask]

I think universal suffrage was instituted in the 1940's in Sweden. Women got the vote in 1921 (I think...), but people on welfare didn't get to vote until 1940-something.

[Scarlet Knight]

Hey, am I the only one who thinks any movie with writhing, nubile, ( non-kobold) oracles in diaphanous clothing is worth a look...

[73 Bits of Lint]

Hey, am I the only one who thinks any movie with writhing, nubile, ( non-kobold) oracles in diaphanous clothing is worth a look...
There were all those gross old men staring at her in that scene, and I'm pretty sure the movie implied that she frequently had sex with the gross old men. Then there was Xerxes harem of freaks.
Fan disservice thy name is Miller.

[BatRobin]

madness?


THIS!
IS!
SPARTA!


I thought...I thought it was Persia?

[rewinn]

There were all those gross old men staring at her in that scene, and I'm pretty sure the movie implied that she frequently had sex with the gross old men. Then there was Xerxes harem of freaks...
"300" would've been better with a Grail-shaped beacon, and a lonely castle full of eight score young blondes and brunettes, all between sixteen and nineteen and a half ...

... am I alone in thinking Monty Python would've done "300" better?

[krossbow]

"300" would've been better with a Grail-shaped beacon, and a lonely castle full of eight score young blondes and brunettes, all between sixteen and nineteen and a half ...

... am I alone in thinking Monty Python would've done "300" better?



wait... thinking about things;


if 300 had had 300 oiled woman in their underwear running around doing kung fu, it probably would have been branded a porno and been given a much steeper rating; double standard much? :smallwink:

[Bibliomancer]

... am I alone in thinking Monty Python would've done "300" better?

Anyone could have done it better as a comedy. That was why Meet the Spartans was more amusing for me than 300.

[Scarlet Knight]

wait... thinking about things;


if 300 had had 300 oiled woman in their underwear running around doing kung fu, it probably would have been branded a porno and been given a much steeper rating; double standard much? :smallwink:

True, but twice as many people would have gone to see it....:smallredface:

[veti]

True, they weren't the first all-inclusive democracy in the world, but that didn't happen until the 1960's (and still hasn't if you're going to include foreigners in that list).

Hmm. New Zealand introduced universal suffrage for adults in 1893. I'm not sure if legally resident foreigners were included back then, but they certainly are today.

[Asta Kask]

Anyone could have done it better as a comedy. That was why Meet the Spartans was more amusing for me than 300.

You mean it wasn't? :smallsmile: