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View Full Version : Can a Sorceror with Wings/Tail be viable campaign character?



Raenir Salazar
2009-09-24, 12:50 AM
A DM I'm talking with is saying that there will be a huge number of issues with "racism" ie inability for the party to walk around travel, get jobs, goto markets places etc on the same level of say akin to trying to walk around with a Drow character in the party.

I mean this seems absurd even with a hardassed DM your still HUMAN just descended from a Dragon.

quick_comment
2009-09-24, 12:53 AM
Alter self, done.

Ravens_cry
2009-09-24, 01:00 AM
Depends on the DM's world. If it is almost strictly human, with other races far and few between, an elf would seem tremendously odd. Especially if they are as alien as most depictions of Mialee. On the other hand, in a world where being half-something is more common than not and mind flayers walk the streets, no, not at all.
D&D is a work of joint creation, you are working together on this. Just remember that that works both ways.

Zeful
2009-09-24, 01:01 AM
Sorcerers are generally feared/hated/what-have-you simply for having magic (according to the official description at least). Wings/Tail would simply magnify that for everyone who doesn't worship dragons (while beings that worship dragons would be groveling at your feet and proclaiming a desire to have your genetically abnormal babies). I mean you have wings and a tail for heaven's sake. Further these are bony, membrane-y wings, not fluffy angelic ones. Anyone without Knowledge (Arcana) and is slightly religious will see the character as a half-fiend (even if they don't have Knowledge: (Religion), it's likely the Expert/Adept/Cleric running the local church will, and he'll tell them).

In this case the "racism" associated with such a character is pretty reasonable.

arguskos
2009-09-24, 01:01 AM
Well, from an in-game perspective, most basic peasant NPCs will probably think you're some kind of freak and refuse to deal with you. Merchants will be uneasy and may charge more. Bartenders might tell you to get out of their bar, cause "we don't serve freaks here". Yeah, I'd say an inhuman looking thing will face some serious stigmas.

It doesn't matter that you are mostly human, it's that you are partially reptile or whatever. :smallwink:

Raenir Salazar
2009-09-24, 01:13 AM
But the actual priest guy with ranks in religion however will know though right away "hes just a dragon thing" and if your descended from say a Metallic dragon and the priest is good aligned...



Well, from an in-game perspective, most basic peasant NPCs will probably think you're some kind of freak and refuse to deal with you. Merchants will be uneasy and may charge more. Bartenders might tell you to get out of their bar, cause "we don't serve freaks here". Yeah, I'd say an inhuman looking thing will face some serious stigmas.

It doesn't matter that you are mostly human, it's that you are partially reptile or whatever.


This seems at worst what I'ld expect barring exceptional circumstances the DM person I'm speaking with is under the impression that even getting foodstuffs and basic gear is about the "best"/most that can be acquire from mercs.

jiriku
2009-09-24, 01:19 AM
Hat of disguise: 1000gp for unlimited castings of disguise self. If you can't beat 'em, infiltrate 'em.

Zeful
2009-09-24, 01:24 AM
But the actual priest guy with ranks in religion however will know though right away "hes just a dragon thing" and if your descended from say a Metallic dragon and the priest is good aligned...That's still Knowledge: (Arcana), an untrained check can be made for the skill but only if the DC is 10 or less, so depending on how you got the wings and tail is more of a determinator of the priest knows or not.


This seems at worst what I'ld expect barring exceptional circumstances the DM person I'm speaking with is under the impression that even getting expensive foodstuffs is about the "best" that can be acquired.
That depends on the setting really, a setting were Dragons are know for Virgin Sacrifices and razing of villages they don't like. Then someone with obviously draconic features is likely to get stoned just walking near a settlement. On the other hand, if there was a big war (like World War one) and the Good Dragons spent their resources healing and providing tactical support, the people with draconic features are likely to be praised and or have people of the opposite gender throwing themselves at such a person (the latter more so during the "end" of such a war, but it's not impossible ten or even fifty years later).

taltamir
2009-09-24, 01:26 AM
tuck the tail in your pants, fold your wings, and wear a heavy cloak...

Raenir Salazar
2009-09-24, 01:35 AM
the point for getting wings is to eventually get basic flight you cant hide under a cloak those kind of wings :)

I mean say its either Eberron or Faerun or Greyhawk your standard popular dnd settings.

edit: I alreayd brought up Alter Self, he claims most shopkeepers will have magic detection things and throw me out if I walk in the door :smallconfused:

taltamir
2009-09-24, 01:49 AM
the point for getting wings is to eventually get basic flight you cant hide under a cloak those kind of wings :)

I mean say its either Eberron or Faerun or Greyhawk your standard popular dnd settings.

edit: I alreayd brought up Alter Self, he claims most shopkeepers will have magic detection things and throw me out if I walk in the door :smallconfused:

my suggestions were what to do at level 1... you are a sorcerer, after a very short while you don't care what people think (because you will be too powerful)...

And as mentioned, there are a variety of easily accessible and cheap spells to make them invisible.

gdiddy
2009-09-24, 01:52 AM
Your DM is telling you not to play a half dragon. It will make things complicated, and the human parts of the world you're playing in does not tolerate them.

I would ask him to be a winged Kobold instead (Uses your first feat to buy the gliding wings - Races of the Dragon). Hardly as threatening to the local populace. They'll probably just think some wizards spell-warped lizard dog escaped.

Kylarra
2009-09-24, 01:55 AM
If he doesn't want you walking around as a half-dragon, no amount of spells are going to save you. Just change it.

gdiddy
2009-09-24, 01:57 AM
Just out of curiosity, why do you want to play a Half-Dragon?

taltamir
2009-09-24, 01:58 AM
Your DM is telling you not to play a half dragon. It will make things complicated, and the human parts of the world you're playing in does not tolerate them.

I would ask him to be a winged Kobold instead (Uses your first feat to buy the gliding wings - Races of the Dragon). Hardly as threatening to the local populace. They'll probably just think some wizards spell-warped lizard dog escaped.

if the DM is saying not to play it is one issue. If the DM wants to know if other people think it is as big a problem as he thinks it would be, than that is another issue.

Kylarra
2009-09-24, 02:02 AM
if the DM is saying not to play it is one issue. If the DM wants to know if other people think it is as big a problem as he thinks it would be, than that is another issue.The DM isn't asking us. The player is asking us if we think it'd be a problem. There is only one answer. There is as much of a problem as the DM wants there to be, and clearly this DM doesn't want a half-dragon and is being less than subtle about saying it without outright saying it.

Quietus
2009-09-24, 02:08 AM
Depends on the DM's world. If it is almost strictly human, with other races far and few between, an elf would seem tremendously odd. Especially if they are as alien as most depictions of Mialee. On the other hand, in a world where being half-something is more common than not and mind flayers walk the streets, no, not at all.
D&D is a work of joint creation, you are working together on this. Just remember that that works both ways.

This. I've had worlds in the past where being something so off-the-wall would be perfectly fine... hell, in places like Sigil, it's almost expected.

In my current main world, however... Vethedar was, in relatively recent history, ruled tyrannically by dragons. It's been a couple centuries, but it's still a sore spot.. dragons are not looked kindly upon. Worse, there are some children being born to fully Human families that are taking on draconic traits at puberty, growing very light scales rather than body hair. These individuals are shunned and hated simply because they have what amount to rough patches of skin. With feats, they could gain other traits - horns, claws, tails, and I'd allow the draconic wing feats from Races of the Dragon - but the further one goes along those lines, the more likely they are to be lynched on sight in the major cities.

Fizban
2009-09-24, 02:23 AM
Just pointing out, he said wings and a tail, nothing about half-dragon (which doesn't get a tail). I imagine he's thinking Silverbrow Human (silver dragon descended human) and then spending his first level feat and bonus feat on Dragon Wings and Dragon Tail.

And like everyone else has said, there's only as much problem as the DM decides there is. If he doesn't want monstrous looking characters then you're going to have issues playing a monstrous looking character. Just because your sheet says human doesn't mean the NPCs know or care if you're human- you look different.

Now, silverbrow humans get a bonus on disguise checks, and with a really big cloak it shouldn't be to hard at all to hide those in town until you've got the magical bling to do it effortlessly. Or you could take Disguise Self at first level: it can't change your "body type", which I would assume means it won't obscure your wings and tail, but you could make the wings look angelic or illusion your clothing into the aforementioned big cloak.

Kylarra
2009-09-24, 02:29 AM
If flight's your concern, just grit your teeth and bear it until level 6 and then take overland flight.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-24, 09:15 AM
the point for getting wings is to eventually get basic flight you cant hide under a cloak those kind of wings :)

I mean say its either Eberron or Faerun or Greyhawk your standard popular dnd settings.

edit: I alreayd brought up Alter Self, he claims most shopkeepers will have magic detection things and throw me out if I walk in the door :smallconfused:

1: That last part is BS, as adventurers have magical effects active on their body almost 24/7. Spellcasters doubly so.

2: The DM probably doesn't want you to play a Half-Dragon. Or at the very least,a Half-Dragon Sorcerer. Try Dragonborn (Races of the Dragon). It's better concept-wise for a number of reasons, and the social stigma is negated when dealing with people who have ranks in Knowledge (Religion) because of your origins. Also, +2 Con.

taltamir
2009-09-24, 09:57 AM
To OP... If your DM sounds averse to the idea I wouldn't press it. It can really end badly to all involved. He might have an unrealistically harsh idea of how "racism" works in game and that can really derail a game. And cause IRL conflict between characters and DM.

As a nice twist, you can maybe play a dragon descendant who does NOT have visible traits... but, say, has a younger sister who suddenly develops dragon like traits some time into your adventuring career or something interesting like that... again it requires a lot of maturity from DM and playing companions and yourself. And a willingness to actually "deal" with this particular issue on a regular basis.

The Neoclassic
2009-09-24, 09:59 AM
1: That last part is BS, as adventurers have magical effects active on their body almost 24/7. Spellcasters doubly so.

Well, some may have some sort of magical detection for seeing invisibility and such. However, your average sword seller can't afford this, and like Sinfire points out, shopkeepers would be foolish to throw out anyone who has any magical aura about them.


2: The DM probably doesn't want you to play a Half-Dragon. Or at the very least,a Half-Dragon Sorcerer. Try Dragonborn (Races of the Dragon). It's better concept-wise for a number of reasons, and the social stigma is negated when dealing with people who have ranks in Knowledge (Religion) because of your origins. Also, +2 Con.

Or just play a human with some hint of draconic heritage, but nothing too obvious. Some DMs just don't like half-dragons (or other sorts of half-whatevers or exotic races), and while I realize some players are in love with them, sometimes one just has to deal and pick something more mundane.

Gnaeus
2009-09-24, 10:30 AM
Well, some may have some sort of magical detection for seeing invisibility and such. However, your average sword seller can't afford this, and like Sinfire points out, shopkeepers would be foolish to throw out anyone who has any magical aura about them.

Hey Fred Fighter! You carry all my stuff anyway. Go into that shop and tell them you want to buy a wand of glitterdust and a bag of cobwebs please. Nevermind. You might screw that up. Let me just write down this shopping list. Hand it to the storekeeper.

Kylarra
2009-09-24, 10:37 AM
Hey Fred Fighter! You carry all my stuff anyway. Go into that shop and tell them you want to buy a wand of glitterdust and a bag of cobwebs please. Nevermind. You might screw that up. Let me just write down this shopping list. Hand it to the storekeeper.
Well, most people do leave the shopping to the party face anyway... just it's generally the sorcerer with their naturally high CHA, too bad it's not working for them since he's also naturally repulsive with his dragonparts.

Deliverance
2009-09-24, 10:44 AM
I mean this seems absurd even with a hardassed DM your still HUMAN just descended from a Dragon.
Considering the treatment that the majority of human societies of all ages have given to humans who were only mildly physically deformed (to speak nothing of major deformations like a hunchback), having a quite ordinary human society in your role playing game treat a deformed mutant with a tail and wings as an utter abomination is most assuredly not a far stretch.

And one using alter self to pass amongst humans unknown to them could quite reasonably be considered, should he ever be discovered, a deformed mutant infiltrator, who deserves likely to be treated like the wolves are or, best case, merely be ostracized from human society.

Also known as "it depends on the setting".

You may have a setting where everybody embraces diversity and the lamb and the lion happily cohabit and share their iron rations. You may have a setting where it is commonplace to accept everybody or anything sentient as people. You may have a setting where being partly an inhuman monster to the eyes of all who see does not predispose humans against you. Assuming that it is absurd for this not to be the case seems to be making major unwarranted assumptions about your campaign world and the nature of human beings.

If in doubt, assume that prejudice against the visibly different exists - it is usually a safe bet.

Raenir Salazar
2009-09-24, 11:09 AM
Actually you misunderstand, he said he wouldn't mind me hypothetically play a human sorceror witht hose feats he would even give them for free (the feats) but hes saying it would be on the lines of nearly unplayable as if walking around with a drow.

The Neoclassic
2009-09-24, 11:10 AM
Actually you misunderstand, he said he wouldn't mind me hypothetically play a human sorceror witht hose feats he would even give them for free (the feats) but hes saying it would be on the lines of nearly unplayable.

Did I fail at reading somewhere? This went from "My DM doesn't want me to play a character with wings and a tail because the NPCs will hate him" to something about feat selection? Where did I get lost? :smalleek:

Raenir Salazar
2009-09-24, 11:12 AM
I never said he was refusing but it seems yes its based on the setting.



I keep forgetting that you've only ever played in or read about high-magic worlds. (A world in which common people know the difference between good and evil dragons and routinely use Alter Self to disguise their racial identities can, I suspect, be fairly called "high-magic.") And, yes, I certainly agree that a setting like Forgotten Realms or Eberron or even Dragonlance is far less likely to pose this sort of problem to freak monster PCs than a good setting. Wink

In the vast majority of games I run, a human with a tail and wings wandering into a shop is likely to be the first human with a tail and wings that shopkeeper has ever seen.

Kylarra
2009-09-24, 11:15 AM
Delicious snark is delicious, I love the "my campaign is better than published settings" aspect. That aside, I'd just not bother if he's against it (yes I know he hasn't specifically said it, but all the signs are there).

The Neoclassic
2009-09-24, 11:18 AM
I never said he was refusing but it seems yes its based on the setting.

... Who said refusing? And why was feat selection brought up and then ignored again? I'm sorry, but I REALLY do not understand what's going on here. I'll just leave it at "If your DM would prefer you not play a sorcerer with wings and a tail, and will give you a hard time about it, then it's probably best not to do it. None of us, and probably not you, will be able to change your DM's mind."

Confusing responses are confusing. :smallsigh:

Paulus
2009-09-24, 11:23 AM
unplayable!? UNPLAYABLE!? My friend! My dear scalely sorcerer friend, NOTHING is unplayable! If you want that tail and wings, TAKE THEM! If the DM says there will be trouble? Hat of disguise. Magic is a no go? Baggy pants, tuck your tail. Cloak and Hood, tuck your wings. Don't want to fight in a cloak with tucked tail? Untuck them both, take off your cloak! The disguise is just for shopping and being in towns. When you need to unfurl your wings and tail it's usually in combat, and being in combat means you are fighting so it doesn't matter what the townsfolk think. because YOU are clearly the good guy in the encounter! and if not? Well. Escape! Find another town or so. It may be a challenge by that's what we THRIVE on! Adventure! challenge! Oh how much fun JUST GOING INTO TOWN will be!! DON'T LET THEM KEEP YOU DOWN MY DRAGON BROTHER! FIGHT THE POWAH!!



The message brought to you by the feel good role playing association of gamers and groups for the emphasis of enjoyment over effectiveness.

Kylarra
2009-09-24, 11:23 AM
... Who said refusing? And why was feat selection brought up and then ignored again? I'm sorry, but I REALLY do not understand what's going on here. I'll just leave it at "If your DM would prefer you not play a sorcerer with wings and a tail, and will give you a hard time about it, then it's probably best not to do it. None of us, and probably not you, will be able to change your DM's mind."

Confusing responses are confusing. :smallsigh:
He's probably playing a silverblooded human. In races of the dragon there're feats that you can take at first level that grant you draconic appendages, Dragon tail and dragon wings. He's saying his DM will give him those feats for free, but at a significant penalty in the form of NPC reactions.

Paulus
2009-09-24, 11:25 AM
... Who said refusing? And why was feat selection brought up and then ignored again? I'm sorry, but I REALLY do not understand what's going on here. I'll just leave it at "If your DM would prefer you not play a sorcerer with wings and a tail, and will give you a hard time about it, then it's probably best not to do it. None of us, and probably not you, will be able to change your DM's mind."

Confusing responses are confusing. :smallsigh:


He's saying he is going to play a Sorcerer with the Draconic Heritage Feats that give him a Tail and Wings. For free no less. Which obviously means he wishes him to play it. But it also warns that there will be racism complications, and teh player is worried it will cripple his character. Which it won't.

EDIT::

He's probably playing a silverblooded human. In races of the dragon there're feats that you can take at first level that grant you draconic appendages, Dragon tail and dragon wings. He's saying his DM will give him those feats for free, but at a significant penalty in the form of NPC reactions.

ooo ninjaed! but saved from double posting! BOO-HOORAY!

The Neoclassic
2009-09-24, 11:25 AM
He's probably playing a silverblooded human. In races of the dragon there're feats that you can take at first level that grant you draconic appendages, Dragon tail and dragon wings. He's saying his DM will give him those feats for free, but at a significant penalty in the form of NPC reactions.

Oooooh. Why couldn't he have just said that? Wings and tail could mean any number of draconic combinations/races. :smallannoyed:

Thanks for the clarification! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:


He's saying he is going to play a Sorcerer with the Draconic Heritage Feats that give him a Tail and Wings. For free no less. Which obviously means he wishes him to play it. But it also warns that there will be racism complications, and teh player is worried it will cripple his character. Which it won't.

Well, buying disguise items and such DOES cost munny. So there is a cost. But as you point it out, it is do-able. I still wouldn't expect the DM to be too happy about it though. :smallamused: Then again, maybe the DM will reward his ingenuity and realize that if he puts in those resources to make himself look human, there would realistically be no issues with townsfolk, so all should be well!

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-09-24, 11:27 AM
And, yes, I certainly agree that a setting like Forgotten Realms or Eberron or even Dragonlance is far less likely to pose this sort of problem to freak monster PCs than a good setting. Wink

Alright. A little snarky, but hey. He's entitled to his opinion, and, with the exception of Eberron, I'm slightly of this opinion as well (not being a big fan of Faerun or Dragonlance), so that's neither here nor there. I just hope that, after making such a claim, he has something interesting up his sleeve.


In the vast majority of games I run, a human with a tail and wings wandering into a shop is likely to be the first human with a tail and wings that shopkeeper has ever seen.

This seems to sum it up. You'd get a negative response just like a shopkeeper in our world would give a negative response to, say, an Orc walking into his store. Apprehension and a desire to be rid of the customer would be likely, curiousity would be possible (if rare), and often outright hostile action could occur. Within the brief glimpse of his world that he's given us, I feel that you don't have much ground to alter his decision. If you want to play a draconic human, prepare to be ostracized. It doesn't look like you can alter that and still fit into his world.

That said, most shopkeepers in such a "low-magic" world would have no possible way of detecting if you have an active illusion spell covering up your draconic features. If you have the ability, you're likely one of a select few such individuals, and having shopkeepers routinely spending vast sums of money to protect their stores against magic-wielding individuals would be like modern supermarkets and department stores investing in armed guards, electricfied barbed wire, and bullet-proof glass in case of a sudden military attack. In short, it would be completely unbelievable. So I feel that you can make the argument for illusion magic.

Good luck, my friend. :smallbiggrin:

Raenir Salazar
2009-09-24, 11:45 AM
Yes, THAT is reasonable and would be fun, I was just horribly off hilt under the assumption that the hypothetical setting was 'high magic' and perplexed that there WOULD be any significant npc racism, if the setting is low magic and humans not really seeing things its more understandable.

Riffington
2009-09-24, 12:44 PM
There exist high-magic worlds with significant racism against creatures with scales/wings/horns. All that is required is that creatures like that be (reportedly) responsible for great harms.

Examples:
*the previously-dragon-dominated world Quietus mentioned.
*Mythic Europe (if magic can be ok, but witches are evil, then charms against witches and witchburnings are reasonable)
*Rifts (you're a D-bee. Everyone's seen a D-bee murdering children on tv, and there are packs of dogboys roaming the city that can sniff out your illusions)
*Look at racism against the Drow.

You may call yourself human, but if you have wings or a tail you aren't human in most peoples' eyes. What you are may be tolerated or accepted, but it totally depends on the world.

HCL
2009-09-24, 05:52 PM
Since sorcs have charismas in the 20+ it shouldnt be a problem

Jack_Simth
2009-09-24, 06:03 PM
the point for getting wings is to eventually get basic flight you cant hide under a cloak those kind of wings :)

I mean say its either Eberron or Faerun or Greyhawk your standard popular dnd settings.

edit: I alreayd brought up Alter Self, he claims most shopkeepers will have magic detection things and throw me out if I walk in the door :smallconfused:
Respond with Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm), Misdirection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm), Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm), and Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm).

That is, if you decide he's just trying to be realistic, vs. saying "no" without actually saying "no" - but that's a judgment call on your part.

Alternately, convince one of the other players to have an LG character that's normal, and sympathizes with your plight.

Deliverance
2009-09-28, 12:24 PM
Since sorcs have charismas in the 20+ it shouldnt be a problem
Why not?

Do you really expect being highly charismatic to automatically defuse racism, specicism, or prejudice?

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-28, 12:43 PM
Marvel's 'Angel' quite happily manages to wear a suit over his wings, most of the time, so I'd say a hat of disguise + big cloak etc would be more than enough. (See also Jeepers Creepers).

Also allows for some very cinematic 'reveal' moments, when you cast back the cloak and take to the air, etc.

As for NPC racism, when you can't avoid it, embrace it for the RP chance it is.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-28, 01:01 PM
That said, most shopkeepers in such a "low-magic" world would have no possible way of detecting if you have an active illusion spell covering up your draconic features. If you have the ability, you're likely one of a select few such individuals, and having shopkeepers routinely spending vast sums of money to protect their stores against magic-wielding individuals would be like modern supermarkets and department stores investing in armed guards, electricfied barbed wire, and bullet-proof glass in case of a sudden military attack. In short, it would be completely unbelievable. So I feel that you can make the argument for illusion magic.


Seconded for emphasis.