Dungeoncrawl movement..

[Thespianus]

I'd be interested in how you more experienced players move in a dungeon crawl.

More than once our party has kinda become stuck in places like 10ft doors and stuff, with a Large monster right infront of us, giving us no real chance to flank or anything. It just seems like a very poor way to lash out the hurt.

Could someone smart describe to me how you folks maneuver through a "traditional" (WOTC module) dungeon? Say when you enter a room through a 5ft door, compared to a 10ft door, etc?

We're now level 8 and we pretty much move the same way now as we did when we were level 1. It seems ineffective. Any tips on tactics would be good. (We're pretty much a traditional party of 4: Barbarian, Sorcerer, Cleric and Rogue with some arcane casting.

[quick_comment]

You can tumble through the monster's space

[Stabby]

Well, if the rogue is sneaky, send him in first to scout, then the barb with cleric right behind. Flank the door and bring the sorc in. Command and control with scouting and protection of artillery.

Everyone has a different way. My old gaming group had a couple different standard formations that we even started naming. Of course a couple of those campaigns had us as an established merc company so it was appropriate. Even down to reminding the new guy (both in and out of game) where he was supposed to stand.

[Thespianus]

You can tumble through the monster's space
At a Tumble DC of 25, right? The Rogue will succeed with that 1/3 of the time, at the moment. Boosting the Tumble skill might help, ofcourse.

The normal order of things for us is that the Rogue will check for traps on the door, pick the lock if it's locked, then the Barbarian and the Cleric (or the Rogue and Cleric) will take up the front positions and open the door. If there's any monsters in the room, we'll roll initiative at that time, and if the monsters win, they'll move up to us, and we'll be pretty much stuck in the door frame.

Is this a typical Dungeon crawl scenario, or is it just us?

Granted, we could start feeding the Rogue Invisibility from a Wand, and let him go first, but that would put him in a tough spot. I suppose it's a decent alternative...

[Sinfire Titan]

Tumbling through the enemy's space provokes, but failing the check doesn't prevent you from moving anyway, IIRC.


I usually ensure that my character has a method of teleportation to deal with tight hallways, allowing me to flank unhindered. Low-level Teleportation effects can be found in the MiC. Alternatively, I use adjacent planes of existence (via the Phase Cloak soulmeld when playing a Totemist, the Apparition Ribbon when Incarnate, Shadow Jaunt as a Swordsage, or scrolls of Etherealness for other classes). Sometimes, if I feel so inclined, I cause a collapse or simply jaunt through the entire place and stealthily scout out the entire dungeon for the party (works best when using the Totemist or Wizard characters, though I've done it as a Swordsage too). I'm not one for using Scry and Die, though I know how to turn an encounter one-sided when I need to.

My players are less intelligently-inclined. They prefer walking through it the hard way. If an enemy pops up in a corridor, odds are they forget about flanking entirely and just whack it. The Warlock is the most likely to teleport. They've experienced the receiving end of a Scry and Die during an Epic campaign (6 Mariliths as the distraction, Mind Flayer Dungeon Lord/Illithid Savant used Teleport to get behind them and blasted 3 of the 4 with the Mind Blast, stunning two of them, and the ported back to safety).

Oddly, despite their lack of tactical movement and such, they do just fine at staying alive against my normal encounters. The tend to lose a player or two if I actively try to kill them though.

[Thespianus]

I forgot:

The Barbarian did get a Fighter Bonus Feat, and used it to get Shadow Jaunt, through Martial Study (Our DM brought ToB into play at level 8, so we got the chance to pick a few goodies), which of course will aid us.

I guess we're just not yet used to that level of flexibility, and ofcourse, it takes a tough character to teleport INTO trouble rather than saving that move to get OUT of trouble. ;)

EDIT: Oh, and "Scry and Die"? Care to elaborate on that theme? I don't recognize the term...

Thanks for your reply, BTW.

[Keld Denar]

Short range teleports are obscenely useful. Even something like Anklets of Translocation will go a long way in a dungeon, and they are soooo cheap that you can afford to buy a couple pairs and swap them out between combats.

[Thespianus]

Short range teleports are obscenely useful. Even something like Anklets of Translocation will go a long way in a dungeon, and they are soooo cheap that you can afford to buy a couple pairs and swap them out between combats.
We'll try to pick those up. At the moment we're way off from any kind of shop or market (no shop in the entire module, so far) but it might be feasible in other ways.

[Random832]

EDIT: Oh, and "Scry and Die"? Care to elaborate on that theme? I don't recognize the term...

Also known as "Scry and fry" - scry on your target, then teleport in (ideally after applying buffs), then kill them.

[valadil]

We usually have two tactics: lightning bolt formation and fireball formation. Lightning bolt is used in 5' passageways where we have to form a line. Fireball is when we walk doublefile (to hide our numbers). In either mode, people with lots of HP go in the front. Someone guard the rear. And squishy folk go in the middle.

If we can surround a door we usually put a little more thought into it, but those are our two standards. Things can get more interesting when you have teleportative ability. One move I saw was the elevator. A bard or sorcerer would pair up with a tank and cast dimension door on the two of them so the tank could always full attack. My own personal twist on that is for the sorc to stand with an open space immediately in front of him and a tank at each forward diagonal. You dimension door yourself and the two tanks so that an enemy is immediately in front of you. This is obviously riskier, but if you time it right ensures two flanked full attacks. Probably works better with rogues, but we didn't have any the last time I played a sorc.

[talus21]

At over 8th level I would think your rogue can tumble at a DC 25 most the time. My current 8th level duelist only needs a 6 to make that. Tumble is my favorite skill though.

[Thespianus]

At over 8th level I would think your rogue can tumble at a DC 25 most the time. My current 8th level duelist only needs a 6 to make that. Tumble is my favorite skill though.

I'm playing the arcane Rogue, and quite a few skill points has gone the way of Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcane. Search, Hide, Spot and Pick Lock has received quite a bundle too, so Tumble has fallen behind (I believe I've got 6 ranks of Tumble, with a +5 dex modifier, leaving me at +11 at the moment). I'll try to boost that some at the next ding.

[Thespianus]

Also known as "Scry and fry" - scry on your target, then teleport in (ideally after applying buffs), then kill them.

Ah, I see. Well, we've fallen behind a bit on the spell casting side, with the Sorcerer taking a level of Fighter, we're up to 3rd level spells only.

We're not a very optimized bunch, so the normal tactics for a level 8 party might have to wait until level 10. ;)

[Thespianus]

Oh, I've just discovered Knight's Move (Clr3) in the SpC. I think this might solve most of our problems, together with the Shadow Jaunt ability.

[tyckspoon]

The normal order of things for us is that the Rogue will check for traps on the door, pick the lock if it's locked, then the Barbarian and the Cleric (or the Rogue and Cleric) will take up the front positions and open the door. If there's any monsters in the room, we'll roll initiative at that time, and if the monsters win, they'll move up to us, and we'll be pretty much stuck in the door frame.

Is this a typical Dungeon crawl scenario, or is it just us?


Readied actions, my friend! One character opens the door, and everybody else prepares to do whatever it is they do as soon as they can see the other side. Your barbarian and/or cleric says he'll move into the other side and take up position as soon as the door opens, that's what he does. The initiatives don't matter, he's already over there holding space for the rest of you (he might have used up his action for the surprise round/his move action for the first normal round, but it takes care of your particular problem.) He'll also sometimes run straight into a pit on the other side of the door, but that's a known occupational hazard of being Guy Who Goes In First.

Your DM may rule that readied actions do not exist outside of combat, which is rather silly, especially when there is a specific trigger event that you know is about to happen (ie, "Guys, I'm opening the door on three, two, one, go!") If that happens, just put yourself in combat before you open the door.. punch (nonlethally for 1d3 damage) one of your party in the face, have everybody roll initiative, and then whoever you want to get through the door readies an action to 'get away from the brawl' when the door gets opened. 's very silly, and hopefully your DM would reconsider his ruling shortly.

[Person_Man]

1) Skill Monkey with ridiculous Hide and Move Silently (and maybe Invisibility and Silence) goes in, scouts monster locations, and then comes out. Party comes up with an attack plan, then goes in. Or if he's particularly ballsy, he can just steal everything and leave without killing anyone. Or plant traps. Or poison their food.

2) Instead of a Skill Monkey, casters use Divination spells. Party comes up with an attack plan, then goes in (preferably with Teleport).

3) Summon something. Note that there's a Reserve feat that lets you do this infinitely, and Mount (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mount_(Spell)) lasts for hours per level. Send it in, have it attack (or just set off traps) and then run away. Party sets up ambush just outside dungeon.

4) Roleplaying. Have someone with decent Bluff and Sense Motive (and Disguise/Alter Self if necessary) go into the dungeon. Have them try to apply for a job, or sell them a Trojan horse, or convince the enemies to leave, etc. Or don't Bluff. Just make enough noise until someone comes out of the dungeon, declare that you've been paid X gp to kill everyone there, and offer to kill everyone in the town instead if the enemy pays you 2X gp.

5) Smoke em out. Buy an Eversmoking Bottle or Decanter of Endless Water. Fill the castle or dungeon until something comes out to investigate. Kill it. Repeat.

6) Door to door combat. This is by far the most dangerous, but most common, form of clearing a dungeon. You go door to door, exploring, disarming traps, killing, and so on. When doing this, you should follow standard urban combat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_warfare) rules. Use artillery when possible to clear a room before anyone goes in. Burst into rooms and use Surprise when you can. Identify choke points where you can have 2-3 PCs attacking 1 enemy at a time, and use battlefield control (Trip, difficult terrain, etc) to ensure enemies have a hard time moving through it. Identify places where you can set up a cross fire, and then lure enemies into a zone of difficult terrain (supplied by Solid Fog or Earth Devotion if necessary) where you can cut them down with ranged attacks without fear of melee retaliation. Use Wall spells a lot to channel enemies. And so on. Like all tactical combat, your goal is to use asymetric force. Isolate/control enemy movement, focus overwhelming force on as few as possible (preferably 1) until dead, then repeat.

The real trick though is to vary your tactics. If you send in the Rogue to scout every dungeon every time in the same way, your DM will find some way to screw up your standard operating procedures and capture/kill him. So mix up what you do from dungeon to dungeon and from room to room.

[Saph]

Your DM may rule that readied actions do not exist outside of combat, which is rather silly

It's actually the most sensible way of doing it - what do you think Initiative rolls are for? Everyone is "readying actions" - the initiative roll determines who gets to do theirs first.

If you've caught an enemy group by surprise, then you get a surprise round, which is effectively a readied action for everyone anyway.

[Thespianus]

*sniffle*

It's all so beautiful. Especially the Mount-strategy... :)

Thanks. I can't believe we didn't think of readied actions. With some luck, we might even catch the monsters flat footed this way, granted that I didn't make too much sound picking the lock.

[Cieyrin]

It's actually the most sensible way of doing it - what do you think Initiative rolls are for? Everyone is "readying actions" - the initiative roll determines who gets to do theirs first.

If you've caught an enemy group by surprise, then you get a surprise round, which is effectively a readied action for everyone anyway.

And anyways, the only way that I can think of off-hand to ready action outside of combat is to be a Justicar, as it's one of their class abilities.

[tyckspoon]

And anyways, the only way that I can think of off-hand to ready action outside of combat is to be a Justicar, as it's one of their class abilities.

In the general case, I would agree; you can't Ready actions when you're wandering around not expecting any particular thing to happen. I just think it's stupid to disallow it in a room-breaching maneuver, which is essentially a combat where you don't know what the opposition is yet. You're expecting a fight, you know you need to establish your ground on the other side, you know exactly when that door is going to be opened (and your presumed enemies don't)... but you can't prepare to do what you know you need to do upon the performance of a signal event that you know the timing of?

[lsfreak]

I think technically when doing a door-breach type situation, neither side gets a surprise round because neither side actually knew combat was about to start. However, readied actions - while they cannot by RAW be taken - seem to make perfect sense in that they allow a pseudo-surprise round, without allowing the characters to make the more exacting tactics that surprise rounds sometimes entail.

[Saph]

I think technically when doing a door-breach type situation, neither side gets a surprise round because neither side actually knew combat was about to start. However, readied actions - while they cannot by RAW be taken - seem to make perfect sense in that they allow a pseudo-surprise round, without allowing the characters to make the more exacting tactics that surprise rounds sometimes entail.

It's a normal surprise round. The ones doing the breaching know that combat's coming, because they've already listened at the door and gotten ready to attack; they're not surprised. The ones in the room don't know that a bunch of people are about to kick down their door and burst in; they're surprised. So the breachers get one action each which they can use to deploy into the room.

On the other hand, if the people inside the room are forewarned then they're all sitting there with their weapons trained on the door or ready to counter-charge as soon as it's broken, which means that the breachers aren't going to get a free turn.

This is one area where the rules actually make perfect sense. Which is not all that common in RPGs, so enjoy it. :P

[Keld Denar]

Move Silently up to a door, Listen check at door to hear orcs playing dice on the other side. Person at the door opens it, and everyone charges in. Definately a surprise door breach, since one side knew about the other.

[lsfreak]

And if they heard nothing but still assumed there might be a monster on the other side, which is a perfectly legitimate assumption in many situations?

[Saph]

Would be a judgement call, but usually I'd say that they'd get surprise. However, they'd probably have to use their surprise round on move actions to get into an attack position, so the initiative roll is still the most important thing.

On the other hand, monsters get Listen checks, and many adventurers aren't exactly the stealthiest of movers.

[Cieyrin]

Would be a judgement call, but usually I'd say that they'd get surprise. However, they'd probably have to use their surprise round on move actions to get into an attack position, so the initiative roll is still the most important thing.

On the other hand, monsters get Listen checks, and many adventurers aren't exactly the stealthiest of movers.

*cue dwarven tank*

HEY GUYS! I ROLLED A MOVE SILENTLY OF 4!

[Keld Denar]

4? Thats a good roll! You know you're doing it right when your check result is NEGATIVE...

EDIT:
Its also important to remember range penalties on Listen checks. Every 10' is a -1, and obstuctions such as doors can add circumstance penalties.

[jiriku]

In the general case, I would agree; you can't Ready actions when you're wandering around not expecting any particular thing to happen. I just think it's stupid to disallow it in a room-breaching maneuver, which is essentially a combat where you don't know what the opposition is yet. You're expecting a fight, you know you need to establish your ground on the other side, you know exactly when that door is going to be opened (and your presumed enemies don't)... but you can't prepare to do what you know you need to do upon the performance of a signal event that you know the timing of?

These situations result from poor DMing. If you expect to find monsters on the other side of the door, and you're ready for trouble, and the monsters have heard you and expect trouble as well, the fact that the door remains clsoed is irrelevant: the DM should have both sides roll initiative, and both sides can ready actions in anticipation of the door breach. On the other hand, if the monsters aren't alerted to your presence, readied actions aren't appropriate: kick in the door and take your surprise round.

[Thespianus]

Would be a judgement call, but usually I'd say that they'd get surprise. However, they'd probably have to use their surprise round on move actions to get into an attack position, so the initiative roll is still the most important thing.

On the other hand, monsters get Listen checks, and many adventurers aren't exactly the stealthiest of movers.
Especially if the Rogue has to pick the lock to the door. There might be enough metal scraping against metal to prevent a surprise round in that case.

Normally, though, if the door isn't locked, a "one-two-three-go"-method ought to allow us to at least get into the room properly instead of remaining standing like fools in the doorway.

Thanks for all advice!

[Jothki]

Could you enter combat time before you open the door, then delay all of your actions to when the door is opened and have everyone run through at once?