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Paulus
2009-09-24, 12:43 PM
Am I just insane in thinking this would work?

Research says it's possible. A Factotum 8 can cast 1 third level spell, if it were haste, that would qualify for the PRC. And since the only third level spell needed was that haste, it wouldn't take much to only use my third level spell slot to cast it all previous level. And since Factotum's get martial weapon proficiency... it would seem to me they qualify all around. The problem I've run into, is worrying about this "While under the effect of a haste spell that you cast yourself," since you can't caste the same spell twice, it would behoove me to find out if Wands count as "spells I cast myself." In which case a Wand of haste would be required.

Since the Factotum's Bonus to AC are Dodge based the Swiftblades Bonuses would stack as they are also dodged based, add in the Factotum's ability to take extra standard actions on top of the Swfitblades ability to do so, this would make one of the most versatile and fastest characters around, it even has decent bab! It'd be even better if the "+1 to existing arcane spell casting class" on Swift blade allowed you you to increase your progress in Arcane Dilettante, but I think that's pushing it.

So, what do you think?

rypt
2009-09-24, 12:45 PM
I'm a fan. I plan to use Factotum 8/Wizard 1/Mindbender 1/Swiftblade 10 as one side in an upcoming gestalt campaign. I don't think it would be bad as a stand alone character.

Myrmex
2009-09-24, 12:47 PM
RAW, the Factotum gets no spell slots, so can't meet the Swiftblade prereq to have filled all his 3rd level slots with haste.

The author of that class later said "that's no what he meant", but AFAIK, there's no errata for it.

Keld Denar
2009-09-24, 12:49 PM
While it would qualify, you would lose out on a lot of benefits. As you mentioned, you can only cast it once per day. There is also the problem that you aren't casting it from a "spell slot". This cuts you out of a lot of the higher level Swiftblade abilities like the Time Stop ability that only works when you cast Haste from what, an 8th level spell slot? Or something. I'd have to look at it a bit closer at a later point, but I know it would be pretty gimpted out of a goodly portion of its abilities.

rypt
2009-09-24, 12:53 PM
While it would qualify, you would lose out on a lot of benefits. As you mentioned, you can only cast it once per day. There is also the problem that you aren't casting it from a "spell slot". This cuts you out of a lot of the higher level Swiftblade abilities like the Time Stop ability that only works when you cast Haste from what, an 8th level spell slot? Or something. I'd have to look at it a bit closer at a later point, but I know it would be pretty gimpted out of a goodly portion of its abilities.

Yea, if you can slip a level or 2 of wizard or sorcerer casting in before you enter swiftblade, you can at least make use of the limited spell progression and be able to cast haste a few times per day.

Myrmex
2009-09-24, 12:54 PM
While it would qualify....

How? Factotum's have no spell slots.

Ernir
2009-09-24, 12:57 PM
Do it in gestalt for real insanity. Facotum 8/Stuff x//Wiz y/Swiftblade 10/Fullcasting PrC z. Make up the lost caster levels on the Factotum side. Take 3 standard actions per round, do everything with your intelligence, have full Wizard casting.

But as others have pointed out, gestaltless, it runs into bow RAW and playability issues, unfortunately. :smallfrown:

Keld Denar
2009-09-24, 12:59 PM
How? Factotum's have no spell slots.

Ok...even IF you could get in. There. Feel better?

Paulus
2009-09-24, 01:01 PM
RAW, the Factotum gets no spell slots, so can't meet the Swiftblade prereq to have filled all his 3rd level slots with haste.

The author of that class later said "that's no what he meant", but AFAIK, there's no errata for it.
Actually it's "Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste."

So while they don't get spell slots per say, the CAN use all of their third level spells which they can fill as slots, -once- to cast haste. The other two you can memorize a second level ad first level, so technically it's using all your third level slots for third level spells- But it would be iffy and up to the DM. Though honestly I don't see it as problematic. But I'm bias.


While it would qualify, you would lose out on a lot of benefits. As you mentioned, you can only cast it once per day. There is also the problem that you aren't casting it from a "spell slot". This cuts you out of a lot of the higher level Swiftblade abilities like the Time Stop ability that only works when you cast Haste from what, an 8th level spell slot? Or something. I'd have to look at it a bit closer at a later point, but I know it would be pretty gimpted out of a goodly portion of its abilities.

mm. But who needs time stop when you can do an insano-amount of standard actions per round anyway? Plus getting it so late (18 at the earliest) doesn't really leave much room for need of it. but yes, repeated casting are what worry me. Seeing as how I'm not sure if wands count as "Spells you cast yourself" since they come from an item.

Eloel
2009-09-24, 01:05 PM
Why don't you just go straight factotum, and use more inspiration points on standard actions? I don't think there's a limit on how many you can use per round.

Myrmex
2009-09-24, 01:06 PM
Ok...even IF you could get in. There. Feel better?

Yes.



stuffstuffstuff

Paulus
2009-09-24, 01:08 PM
Why don't you just go straight factotum, and use more inspiration points on standard actions? I don't think there's a limit on how many you can use per round.

I can. I'm just like the synergy between the two, swiftblad gives dodge bonuses to AC, Factotum gives dodge bonus to ac... swiftblade also give you miss chance and spell fail chance naturally as class abilities, which add to the Factotum's impressive defenses. And I just like the PRC. So this was an oversize in stretching the limits of sanity to see if it would go. NOT as controversial as some, but still a stretch and I was just seeing if it was seen as such to others. Besides, I like talking to you guys.

Keld Denar
2009-09-24, 01:16 PM
Besides, I like talking to you guys.

D'awwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!! Group hug!

Paulus
2009-09-24, 01:37 PM
Yea, if you can slip a level or 2 of wizard or sorcerer casting in before you enter swiftblade, you can at least make use of the limited spell progression and be able to cast haste a few times per day.

Huh. I suppose Battle Sorcerer 6/Factotum 8/Swiftblade 8 would work just as well. Though it looses it's standard action increase, but I could just spend more Inspiration points. But that'd give meee, 11th lvl sorcerer casting in it's place, 18 bab, Decent reflex and Will saves, and repeated castings of haste. Well. Not too bad I suppose. But then I'd rather go Factotum/SwiftBlade. The Questioned legality of "spell slots" does come to mind though and would be the biggest argument factor.

So do mimic'ed spell slots count as spell slots? After all, Factotum can use meta magic as if they were spell slots. And he does have to prepare them, and looses them the next day.



D'awwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!! Group hug!

I roll a reflex save to avoid the obvious brain sucking trap! Never trust the tentacled faced!

Kylarra
2009-09-24, 01:39 PM
SLAs != spell slots.

You could probably convince a DM to allow you to do it, but yeah.

Paulus
2009-09-24, 01:43 PM
SLAs != spell slots.

You could probably convince a DM to allow you to do it, but yeah.

Wha huh? Sorry could you please explain what this means? First time I've come across it. Much appreciated!

KellKheraptis
2009-09-24, 01:44 PM
Anyone remember WBL? Here's an evil one for you, and one of my favorites (would make a fine escort for Doc Rock's sisters, Elly and Jakenzie) :

Factotum 8/Beholder Mage 1/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 2

Muahahaha! 9 levels of BM madness, two extra standards per round, more if you wanna spew FoI, and they can also be move actions if you wish.

Kylarra
2009-09-24, 01:45 PM
SLA = spell-like ability, which is what Arcane Dilettante grants you.

!= is the symbol for "Does not equal" or "is not equivalent to" (also sometimes written =/=).

So

Spell like abilities are not the same as spell slots, therefore, technically factotum can't qualify on its own.

Paulus
2009-09-24, 01:55 PM
SLA = spell-like ability, which is what Arcane Dilettante grants you.

!= is the symbol for "Does not equal" or "is not equivalent to" (also sometimes written =/=).

So

Spell like abilities are not the same as spell slots, therefore, technically factotum can't qualify on its own.

Is that an official WoTC stance? source please? EDIT: Nevermind, just found it on Invocations.

Yeah it seems I will have to argue it, though the Factotum prepares, looses, and uses the SPA like they were... they just aren't really Spell slots. Hmm. As an aside, would this actually be THAT bad as to near on to game breaking?

Darrin
2009-09-24, 10:58 PM
Spell like abilities are not the same as spell slots, therefore, technically factotum can't qualify on its own.

Hmm... how about the Extra Slot feat from Complete Arcane? The Factotum does have a caster level on his SLAs, so could a Factotum 10 give himself a 3rd level spell slot with the Extra Slot feat?

Or how about bonus spells from Dragon Disciple... would that count as a slot?

Factotum 5/Chameleon 3 would work.

Here's a stretch... one level of Focused Specialist Wizard + Precocious Apprentice gives you two 2nd level spell slots. Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell bumps this up to a 3rd level spell. Illumian with Improved Sigil: Krau gets this up to 4th. Add Practiced Spellcaster for a caster level of 5. Since you can cast 4th level spells and have a caster level of 5, you can pick up the Extra Slot feat to get a 3rd level spell slot.

Kylarra
2009-09-24, 11:05 PM
Hmm... how about the Extra Slot feat from Complete Arcane? The Factotum does have a caster level on his SLAs, so could a Factotum 10 give himself a 3rd level spell slot with the Extra Slot feat?

Or how about bonus spells from Dragon Disciple... would that count as a slot?
Even if we pretended that it would qualify to take Extra slot, you still have an SLA, not spells, therefore you can cast a level 0 -1 = -1th level spell.

Dragon Disciple doesn't work for the same reason. You don't have arcane spellcasting, you have an ability that mimics it.