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MammonAzrael
2009-09-24, 07:12 PM
I'm applying for the Tippyverse game, but my optimization-fu is rusty, and I was hoping the playground could give me some suggestions.

I'll be playing a Whisper Gnome Magus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91510) (a custom class of mine). I won't be PrCing for fluff reasons. The class, I think, is closest to a Sorcerer in terms of optimization.

Starting at level 4, what feats and spells would you look at? I'm currently thinking of focusing on Metamagic, but I'm not sure what other strong options are available to me.

Thanks for the ideas!

Tyndmyr
2009-09-24, 09:48 PM
Well, after having glanced over the class...Im not sure about metamagic. It's got plenty of suddens, but you don't negate the standard sorcerer full-round metamagic penalty for other metamagic sources, so far as I can see.

On the bright side, the class appears to be strictly better than a sorcerer, so pretty much any sorcerer optimization tricks should work just as well, especially if they have synergy with the freebies the class gets. Running off wisdom instead of con is also extremely powerful, and if you ever were inclined to multiclass, this class would probably go nicely with mystic theurge.

Honestly, metamagic rods are probably the easiest way to boost casting power. Well, if you can get it house-ruled that like ignoring the level boost, they also ignore the restriction. Mildly dodgy raw-wise, imo, but I can see making a good case for it.

Now, lets focus on the best part of this beefed up sorc. Not the extra skill points or hit points for no real tradeoff, though this is certainly nice, but the level 10 ability. The ability to duplicate spells that have been cast on you(with no time limit as to when) is *huge*. All you need to pull this off is spellcraft. DC36 is the maximum you'll need to hit to cast any spell of any type that's been cast on you(DC28 for any arcane). The fact that you can later use this to cast spells you haven't even seen, but have merely "heard about" is very powerful.

So...max out spellcraft and gather information. A skill focus on spellcraft, or an item that boosts the skill wouldn't be bad either. It's a pretty easy way to be an omni-caster.

MammonAzrael
2009-09-24, 10:07 PM
Thanks for the reply.

The full round casting for metamagic was the biggest reason I was leery of going that route. But since the primary casting stat is Con and the DC stat is Int, I was wondering if save or sucks would still be superior choices.

I'm not sure what you mean by using Wis over Con. Con grants bonus spells, while Wis grants bonus spells known.

And since you're thinking this is essentially a beefed up Sorcerer, I'm assuming you missed the part where you take nonlethal damage equal to double any spell you cast. :smalltongue: That and the class is not SAD, utilizing Con, Int, and Wis. Possibly Dex or Str depending on the build.

I agree that Instinctive Memory will be a big player later on, but I need to gain 6 levels in a PbP game before it becomes relevant. I'm more looking for ideas that pertain to levels 4 and 5. But again, thanks for the input.

Edit: And aside from Solo’s Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems, I can't find any decent Sorcerer advice, especially regarding non-metamagic feats and focuses. Hence the thread. I'm not sure how applicable TLN's Batman guide and Treantmonk's God guide apply to sorcerers, notably their various suggested roles.

Akal Saris
2009-09-24, 10:13 PM
Once you find a way to avoid or ignore nonlethal damage, however, it outstrips the sorcerer. And there are plenty of ways to do that - play a warforged, for example.

MammonAzrael
2009-09-24, 10:16 PM
Once you find a way to avoid or ignore nonlethal damage, however, it outstrips the sorcerer. And there are plenty of ways to do that - play a warforged, for example.

Nope, since it specifically says that if you're immune to non-lethal damage, you take normal damage instead, which can't be prevented by any means.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-24, 10:30 PM
Oh, primary casting stat is con? That's odd. I saw bonus spells determined by wisdom. Traditionally, bonus stats and primary casting stats are determined by the same ability.

Also, you'll need to add save information to that class.

Nah, it's definitely a very beefed up sorc. I'd put it very high on tier one, probably higher than wizard. Why? You can cast any spell in the game, with a bit of optimization. Out of the box, you can cast any arcane spell, and any divine spell up to level 8. Spontaneously. That's incredibly powerful, merging the strengths of wizard and sorcerer.

Let's list the unique traits:
1. Getting your lower level spells as SLAs. Eventually, everything up to level 8 is an ability of some sort. This gives you a ridiculous amount of endurance in casting.

2. You get five free metamagic feats.

3. You cast as a sorc. You also get a familiar, the usual class skills, etc.

4. You can now ignore charisma, since your casting stat is con. Con has the advantage of making concentration checks easier to make, and giving you mountains of hp and boosting your fort save. By comparison, cha's only other use is as party face. This alone gives you a significant power boost over a sorc.

5. d6 hit die. This character will have hp approaching that of front-liners, thanks to the con focus as well.

6. Remember all those bonus metamagic feats? All of those are balanced by their 1x use a day. Sudden mastery increases that to con modifier. In other words, this class comes with extensive metamagic for absolutely free, built in.

7. The aforementioned ability to cast anything spontaneously.

8. Bonus skill points.

9. The capstone is sick. Being immune to spells up to lvl 3 isn't bad, honestly...(ps, change effected to affected), that's not a game breaker at level 20. Infinite spell turning for any spell up to level 6 IS powerful. Getting to pick the beneficial effects only of three different types is also powerful, especially since the lack of definition of what constitutes a beneficial effect allows great freedom in selecting them.


Your only drawback against all of that is minor non-lethal damage when casting. The abilities bypass this drawback, making it nearly a non issue, and anyhow, it's only 2xspell level non-lethal damage. It can only be cured by resting or magic? You can cast divine spells starting at level 10. At this point, it will never be more than a minor, temporary annoyance.

In short, after having read through the class more, it doesn't need optimization, it's more powerful than any base class currently in existence already.

It's not a MAD class either. There is no particular reason you would ever take charisma or strength for this class. Int is useful only for skills(which you mitigated by giving two extra per level over sorc). Wis is useful only for bonus spells per day(which is more than mitigated by spells becoming abilities). Dex is useful only for the same generic reasons dex is useful to all casters. It's a SAD class, with con being that attribute.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-24, 10:36 PM
Nope, since it specifically says that if you're immune to non-lethal damage, you take normal damage instead, which can't be prevented by any means.

No, but it can be healed, by magic. It's not necessary to actually prevent it, just to come up with a way for it to be healed. That's not terribly hard, honestly.

MammonAzrael
2009-09-24, 10:59 PM
Fair enough, but I think you missed some stuff.


Saves are based on Int as noted in the second Spells paragraph. And Wisdom adds to bonus spells known, not bonus spells. Con dictates bonus spells, and what level spells you can cast. So you'll need a minimum of 19 Con, but you can't ignore Int if you want any respectable DCs.
It is intended that while your spells become SLAs, SUs, and Exs, you still only get 4 + bonus spells a day, not at-will.
The Sudden feats are mediocre for metamagic, but give a reason to stick with the class instead of multiclassing out at your earliest convenience.
Instinctive Mimicry is partially reliant on your DM, who gets to decide what spells you've heard of, as well as some control of what has been cast on you, and was designed with that in mind. Admittedly, I've considered increasing the skill check some. It's hard to find a good balance for any skill check, considering how easy it can be to boost them.
The capstone is supposed to be sick. You've spent 20 levels in the class, so you have no shiny extras from PrCs. Its been pointed out to me that the infinite spell turning is probably too strong, and it may well be toned down. You bring up a good point regarding "beneficial effects," I may define that better.


Thinking about some abilities, I do need to go back and tie the Innate Gifts to class level so they don't continue to evolve if you multiclass, and split the second half of Instinct Mimicry into another feature. That is how it was intended, and I just realized that isn't how it currently works.

Oh, and I originally had the non-lethal damage only be healable with rest, magic wouldn't affect it. This is subject to change if it turns out to be too easy to circumvent.

So yes, in a way it is better than the Sorcerer, since it gives an actual reason to stick with the class instead of getting out ASAP (which has always been a major problem with Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric, IMO).

SparkMandriller
2009-09-24, 11:04 PM
I won't be PrCing for fluff reasons.

Fluff reasons.

Not buyin' it.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-24, 11:13 PM
Sorcerer's don't get bonus spells known.

Adding a brand new ability that happens to be dependant on a different stat doesn't weaken a class.

You'll need to specify that your abilities deplete your spells per day then, since that's not the default.

Mimicry is either ridiculously good, or truenamer-useless, depending on if the DC is achievable or not. It's really not likely to be anywhere in between. It's not that dependent on your DM, as it automatically lets you cast anything you've seen cast, as well as anything you've so much as heard of. In other words, you can leaf through a spellbook once, and cast everything in it spontaneously. Knowledge(Arcana) or Gather Information checks could also lead to learning about the existence of other spells, too. Now, you may think that the higher DC of spells you've merely heard about is a balancing factor, but you only have to make that DC once. To cast it on yourself.

Keep in mind that other base classes do not typically have capstones anywhere near that power level, especially when you're discussing casting classes. I would probably entirely forgo the capstone, and look at making sure the class works nicely with a variety of PrCs. This honestly shouldn't be hard.

I guarantee that curing that damage with healing will be easy to circumvent, given the built-in ability to cast divine spells.

Honestly, I think the biggest problem is two competing concepts. You have the blue mage concept, which is awesome, and you've got the nature-based innate caster. The two ideas are both fine, and can make great classes, but you'd be best off not combining them into one. As it stands now, you can essentially break the game at level 10.

MammonAzrael
2009-09-25, 12:10 AM
I agree for the most part. I haven't really messed with the class, and it certainly has more power than I initially thought, partly because I what I intended, not what I wrote. :smalltongue: I've made some updates to it, if you're interested:


Split the second half of Instinctive Mimicry into it's own ability, Greater Instinctive Mimicry.
Made Fundamentals based on class level, not character level.
Made Innate Gifts based on class level instead of character level.
Clarified Innate Gifts that spells do not become At-Will as the turn into various abilities.
If a check is failed for IM or GIM the daily use and the spell slot are still spent.
You can't take 10 on the IM or GIM checks.
Changed Greater Instinctive Mimicry to only copy spells a magus has seen cast, not heard of.
The damage casting a spell deals can no longer be healed with magic.
Instinctive Mimicry can now only copy spells that have bee cast on him by others.
Removed Spell Turning and the ooze type from Magus Ascendant.
Changed Magus Ascendant from only counting beneficial effects of both types to all effects.
Reduced all Spells known by 1 to increase Wis dependence.

Admittedly I'm still unsure about the Instinctive Mimicry DC issue. The Truenamer was forefront in my thoughts when making it. If you have any ideas on an appropriate scaling DC, I'd love to hear it. Damn custom skill boosting items. :smallmad: