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Zaerdna
2009-09-24, 08:16 PM
If you get Crown of the White Raven it gives you access to one WR maneuver or initet level 3,6 or9.

my questions is about prerequisites: let say get the novice crown and want to pick up 'white raven tactics' I would need to already have one other WR maneuver. there are no manuver above initiate level that one could get.

if you have adaptive style could you change the maneuver you got from your crown?

an other thing:
I have also herd that stone dragon is NOT good for damage. Is that not THE school for direct damage. I must have missed something.

and lastly:
can you get both aura of chaos and aura of pefect order or do the depend on alignment?

technophile
2009-09-24, 08:28 PM
I think Tiger Claw is considered better, damage-wise, than Stone Dragon. No idea on the other questions, though.

Keld Denar
2009-09-24, 08:48 PM
The problem with Stone Dragon is that you have to be standing on the ground. That means no flying. Flying is pretty important mid-late game. Thus...Stone Dragon is rather meh.

Diamond Mind actually outdamage SD pretty well too, with RNB and DNB. Multipliers generally math out higher than static damage increases. The SD strikes that do Con damage are pretty solid though.

And yea, if you have a Crown for a manevuer that has prereqs, you don't need the prereqs. Even if you did, the crown would be its own prereq, since WRT only requires 1 WR maneuver...and WRT can BE that 1 WR manevuer.

lsfreak
2009-09-24, 08:48 PM
Stone Dragon has high-damage strikes, but not much of the things that other schools do in addition to damage. Other schools might not get as many d6's as fast, but the best damage isn't from extra dice anywho. The other schools also do things more than damage (Stone Dragon does a little of this, but not as much as other school). Stone Dragon's requirement of being on the ground hurts a lot too, when by 5th level you can regularly run into flying targets and by 10th level you yourself should be flying if you can.

For comparison, Tiger's Claw has you attacking 1-4 extra times per round, full attacks on charges, free movement. Devoted Spirit has one of the best parts of a lockdown build, some of the only healing in the game worth an in-combat round. Diamond Mind has the ability to basically auto-pass saves, add multipliers to your damage, use skill checks in place of damage. White Raven is a huge boost to any melee party with all it's ally-affecting stances and strikes. All of these are in addition to damage strikes that deal extra damage similar to Stone Dragon, occasionally better. [These four are fairly widely considered the four most powerful schools, though of course there's always a little disagreement]

PinkysBrain
2009-09-24, 08:53 PM
And yea, if you have a Crown for a manevuer that has prereqs, you don't need the prereqs. Even if you did, the crown would be its own prereq, since WRT only requires 1 WR maneuver...and WRT can BE that 1 WR manevuer.
You have to meet the prerequisites of the manoeuvre (IL is not a prerequisite, it's only relevant during learning) before you are granted the benefit of the Crown ... so it can't serve as it's own prerequisite.

Zaerdna
2009-09-24, 08:56 PM
The crown gives you one extra maneuver known. OK

Do you have to be chaotic to have aura of chaos

Do you have to use the associated skills to do a maneuver if it is not mentioned?

lsfreak
2009-09-24, 08:58 PM
Right, can't serve as it's own prereq (though when leaning maneuvers, a maneuver can serve as a prereq when you're about to overwrite it by switching it out for another one, iirc). However, you can get multiple items to grant growing increases (there's no reason why you couldn't have a crown of the white raven, a ring of the white raven, a cloak of the white raven, and a choker of the white raven). Plus if you're already a ToB class, you might well have the prereqs already, you just want another maneuver via item.

Dacia Brabant
2009-09-24, 09:10 PM
Adaptive Style just lets you change (and recover) what maneuvers you have readied to others that you know with a full-round action rather than have to use whatever mechanic your class has. So I don't think it would let you change what maneuver you know from your White Raven Crown, just let you ready (or unready) it.

I'm not sure about the auras. I'm pretty certain that they have alignment descriptors though (I'm AFB so can't say for sure), and divine characters aren't supposed to use abilities that carry an alignment descriptor different from their own. But then the question is, are Crusaders divinely based characters? I think that's debatable.

What they said about Stone Dragon. Good for an Underdark game (I still want to play a masochistic drow stone dragon crusader for some reason), not so good for anything else past early levels. Or when you really need to bypass hardness.


Do you have to use the associated skills to do a maneuver if it is not mentioned?

No, only if the skill is necessary for using the maneuver does it come into play.

lsfreak
2009-09-24, 09:22 PM
Note that if you get your DM to waive the fluff requirement of having to be on the ground, Stone Dragon gets a lot better. Almost every other school is still going to be better except for maybe one or two maneuvers, but still.

Zaerdna
2009-09-24, 10:31 PM
Right, can't serve as it's own prereq (though when leaning maneuvers, a maneuver can serve as a prereq when you're about to overwrite it by switching it out for another one, iirc). However, you can get multiple items to grant growing increases (there's no reason why you couldn't have a crown of the white raven, a ring of the white raven, a cloak of the white raven, and a choker of the white raven). Plus if you're already a ToB class, you might well have the prereqs already, you just want another maneuver via item.

I am making an unarmed swardsage with Improved Natural Attack, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Snap Kick Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, Adaptive style.

and was thinking of picking something from one of the school i did not have.
What to get, and prereqs makes it alsmost impossible to pick anything up.

It also seem like I am stuck in a shadow hand stand. Any tips for manuver to not miss. lv 13 right now

Akal Saris
2009-09-24, 10:48 PM
Right, can't serve as it's own prereq (though when leaning maneuvers, a maneuver can serve as a prereq when you're about to overwrite it by switching it out for another one, iirc). However, you can get multiple items to grant growing increases (there's no reason why you couldn't have a crown of the white raven, a ring of the white raven, a cloak of the white raven, and a choker of the white raven). Plus if you're already a ToB class, you might well have the prereqs already, you just want another maneuver via item.

Actually, size increases don't stack. Whether you can have several 'White Raven' items or if they are the same effect would probably come down to the DM's call, since I could see it going both ways, and Diamond Mind can already do that with a pair of rings.

Sophismata
2009-09-24, 10:49 PM
Shadow Hand gives Air Walk eventually, IIRC. Useful if you cannot fly.

Darkfire
2009-09-25, 08:36 AM
The problem with Stone Dragon is that you have to be standing on the ground.
I somehow completely missed seeing that in ToB up until now (probably due to it not being mentioned in the discipline summary on page 42 but rather in the introduction to the Stone Dragon manoeuvres on page 81). Thanks for highlighting it Keld.

Person_Man
2009-09-25, 09:57 AM
Try reading this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871270/Tome_of_Battle_for_Dummies).

The real key to Tome of Battle is that there's no reason to specialize in one discipline. Just like a caster, you should mix and match to make the build you want. Although most of the more powerful stuff has pre-reqs, it's rarely requires more then one or two levels of the appropriate class to fulfill.


Desert Wind: Offense. Suffers from a dependence on Fire damage (which plenty of enemies are immune to), but good for newbs.

Devoted Spirit: Healing and battlefield control.

Diamond Mind: A mixed bag of useful defense, quirky strikes, and action advantage. Using Diamond Mind well really requires a high level of rules mastery.

Iron Heart: Defense.

Setting Sun: What the Monk should have been. Probably the best balance of offense, defense, and counters, with some nifty battlefield control thrown in.

Shadow Hand: What the Ninja should have been. Lots of strikes and sneaky stuff.

Stone Dragon: Situational defense and strikes. This also requires a high level of rules mastery to use well. The biggest drawback is that 80% of it requires you to move no more then 5 ft per round.

Tiger Claw: Powerful offense, especially at higher levels. This discipline wants you to make as many attacks as possible each round.

White Raven: What the Marshal should have been. Buffs for your friends.

Eloel
2009-09-25, 10:23 AM
You have to meet the prerequisites of the manoeuvre (IL is not a prerequisite, it's only relevant during learning) before you are granted the benefit of the Crown ... so it can't serve as it's own prerequisite.

Any proof on that?

quick_comment
2009-09-25, 10:33 AM
Iron heart is also good for fighting hoards, with steel wind, mithral tornado and adamantine hurricane.