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View Full Version : Creating a Good Magical Girl Anime-Style Anti Villain



Leliel
2009-09-24, 08:28 PM
You see, the fine folks over at RPG net are working on a game of Magical Girls (as in, Sailor Moon and Nanoha) in the New World of Darkness.

Now, I can hear you laughing already, but they're doing a really good job of it-the thread's called Princess: The Fading even though they changed the games' name to The Hopeful after realizing that "fading" really doesn't fit the "Word Half Full" environment-but they're really doing a good job.

One of the pieces of the setting I like are the primary antagonists-the Alhanbrans and the Storm Angels.

Survivors of the "Fall of Utopia" that always happens in NWoD splat backstories, they want to cause havoc on Earth not because they've gone mad and hate everyone, but for very sympathetic, human reasons-the Alhanbrans want create despair on Earth to feed the rituals that prop up what's left of the utopia, and the Storm Angels are trying to whip up mankind into a collective berserker rage to bat back the Forces of Darkness (TM), and the best way to do that is cause so much suffering that people get fed up and lash out.

Trope-wise, the Alhanbrans are Dark Magical Girls (and Guys) who are the sources of the monsters of the week, and the Storm Angels are Well Intentioned Extremists who create monsters of the aesop (to wit, they incite anger so that either their victims become monsters or provide emotional energy for their creation).

Seeing how this isn't Nanoha, they're sympathetic, but they aren't going to look for redemption as societies any time soon (if this was Nanoha, they would realize how petty they're being after being collectively ass-kicked by her, and join forces to prevent the Forces of Darkness from destroying the universe again).

While this is good it's own, I was wondering:

How does one create a Magical Girl anime BBEG who's a villain whose motivations you can understand, but won't seek redemption in the end?

You see, a time traveling BBEL (Big Bad Evil Lass) of mine-Beatus Incendia Glacius-is pretty much a homage to the Woobie Destroyer of Worlds archetype ("mercy killing the world") and I am planning on making her a person to be pitied by forcing the PCs through a similar hellhole (and don't worry, I always warn the players if there's going to be an angst quotient in the campaign). However, I also want to show that by the time she meets the PCs, she's gone so utterly out of her gourd that "death" is the only way she knows how to make the world better.

Also, no matter how I think of her, I always imagine her as one of the dark generals you often see on mahou shojo shows (pops up, summons monsters, disappears through portal after trading insults with main characters). So I wonder:

How would you create a Magical Girl-style Big Bad that is irredeemable while still being a person you find likable and sympathetic?

EDIT: And if you're wondering why I didn't link to TV Tropes-one of the side effects of it ruining your life is ADD.

Leliel
2009-09-24, 09:36 PM
Is the sent of the weeabo really that strong?

I mean, I am a weeabo, but come on-it's really not that bad!

Or is it that the OP is too long.

Gralamin
2009-09-24, 09:42 PM
Honestly, I have no idea where to even start. Magical Girl isn't my Genre of Anime :smallwink:. You might get more out of this if you ask the people in the Anime thread.

Leliel
2009-09-24, 09:49 PM
Honestly, I have no idea where to even start. Magical Girl isn't my Genre of Anime :smallwink:. You might get more out of this if you ask the people in the Anime thread.

Oh. OK.

Except...I don't see a board with that title.

I think this is the board for it, given that Media Discussions is for existing media.

Felirc
2009-09-24, 09:59 PM
Is the sent of the weeabo really that strong?

I mean, I am a weeabo, but come on-it's really not that bad!

Or is it that the OP is too long.

I think it has more to do with the fact that you're asking a question about a somewhat obscure genre of anime and you only waited an hour before you typed this. =P



How would you create a Magical Girl-style Big Bad that is irredeemable while still being a person you find likable and sympathetic?

That's simple, all you have to do is make her like able. =P The reason doesn't even have to be a good one, the only question is whether she believes it or not. If it were me I'd try something along the lines of:

1. Made a promise to someone she cared about that no matter what she'd do everything in her power to do (insert evil thing here).

2. She believes this is the only way to bring back a dead loved one, and, of course, she'll do anything she can to bring back her Sister/Mother/Brother/Father/Senpai (not the only one who loves some Japanese =P)/favorite pet.

3. Someone she trusts very much has convinced her that if she doesn't do these horrible things the world will end. It is, after all, better to kill thousands and save as many as you can right?

4. If you want a less like able route. She is all alone now, and in typical human fashion wants everyone to suffer just like she has. This of course makes you not like her, but still might give players the ability to identify with her.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea so far. =D

I actually looked that over at some point and was rather surprised at the quality that they had in their work. I might have the bookmark somewhere, but honestly it's lost among thousands. Still, it does look like you'll end up having some fun with it. =P

-Felirc-

Primal Fury
2009-09-24, 10:12 PM
Honestly, Ferlic, many those reasons might serve to make the PCs hate the... ugh... Magical Girl even more. That is because from a perspective outside her own, she is not noble, but either incredibly stupid (option 3), or profoundly selfish (options 1, and 2). IMO, those type of villians are even worse then your run-of-the-mill, mustache twirlers. At least the mustache dudes are just plain evil, these options make the villian think she's right when she is in fact very very wrong. This also leads to self-rightousness, and in these cases, that's just begging for a fireball to the face. I like my 2-dimensional evil, world-dominating/destroying necromancers very much thank you. :smalltongue:

That having been said, I do like your 4th option.

Leliel
2009-09-24, 10:31 PM
Honestly, Ferlic, many those reasons might serve to make the PCs hate the... ugh... Magical Girl even more. That is because from a perspective outside her own, she is not noble, but either incredibly stupid (option 3), or profoundly selfish (options 1, and 2). IMO, those type of villians are even worse then your run-of-the-mill, mustache twirlers. At least the mustache dudes are just plain evil, these options make the villian think she's right when she is in fact very very wrong. This also leads to self-rightousness, and in these cases, that's just begging for a fireball to the face. I like my 2-dimensional evil, world-dominating/destroying necromancers very much thank you. :smalltongue:

That having been said, I do like your 4th option.

Well, that's a difference in taste then.:smallbiggrin:

I actually agree with you-the kind of people who think like that are probably more evil then the traditional evviiilll villain-but that's part of the reason why I like them; They indeed have the capacity to be good, but choose to ignore it in favor of their own selfishness.

Personally, I make the villains in charge dedicated anti-villains, either to make the PCs question their moral high ground, or to tell them that "this could have been you" in a suitably spooky manner. In my opinion, if you're going for shock value, make the baddie the most gleefully twisted bastard imaginable, to the point where you suspect they were never "people" in the first place.

Of course, this depends on most of the group being RPers, but I digress.:smallwink:

Agrippa
2009-09-24, 10:31 PM
Actually I have to disagree with you Primal Fury. I like 3-dimensional multi-faceted villains. Either because they have real reasonble goals with understandable if ruthless means to achieve them or because it makes killing or beating the living hell out of the self-righteous bastard taste that much sweeter.

When I think of anti-villains I don't the kind of people who follow Ferlic's examples. Instead I think of the likes of Admiral Thrawn, Baron Wulfenbach and "Gentleman" Baron Johnny Marcone. Also, whatever sympathetic backstory you may have, destroying the world is an act of mass murder and mass murder automatically counts as an evil in my book*. So don't expect me to shead a tear if I have to kill someone to prevent them form intentionally destroying the world.

*Genocide against Daleks, Cybermen and the Borg and the mass killing of Nickelheads is not mass murder. It's more properly thought of as malacide or the killing of evil.

Meek
2009-09-24, 10:34 PM
Most magical girl bad people are already sort of like that. A lot of Sailor Moon antagonists had some sob romantic story that made them more human, but at the end of the day they still stole people's souljuice without batting an eyelash and no amount of human qualities would make them knock it off. They weren't Always Chaotic Evil, but there was no way to shift them to the side of good.

Felirc
2009-09-24, 10:48 PM
Honestly, Ferlic, many those reasons might serve to make the PCs hate the... ugh... Magical Girl even more.

Well they do have to have a reason to kill her... =P


That is because from a perspective outside her own, she is not noble, but either incredibly stupid (option 3),


I have to disagree here. First we're talking about a "magical girl" which by genre standards tend to be two things young and naive. Now, if we just look at the real world horrors that have come about from various groups over our entire history that have told people that they need to kill (insert opposing group here) or else (bad things will happen to them/you) and I don't see it as being that far off (don't we have hunting laws in place so that animals don't die? =P It's this kind of reasoning that I built that suggestion off of).

Now, let's say she was raised in a cult like setting, raised to believe these things from birth, then it's not a far fetch that she'd be willing to do almost anything in her power to "save" mankind.


or profoundly selfish (options 1, and 2).


While I agree that option two is very selfish, option 1 doesn't actually fit any definition of the word selfish. If anything it's almost selfless (of course all actions are technically selfish, but I assume you mean something more blatant). You're talking about a person that regardless of if they find such actions reprehensible or not are willing to sacrifice everything (literally) for their principles (in this case the desire to keep a promise). Not to mention things like promises tend to carry far greater weight in the shows this kind of game is based on.


That having been said, I do like your 4th option.


Well, the only problem is that option 4 is just as selfish as option 2, it's just a different take on the same concept.

The idea behind all of my suggestions was two fold, make them identifiable and also make them very human. Everything suggested takes from core concepts that likely everyone has experienced in their lives, making the character, at the least, sympathetic.


When I think of anti-villains I don't the kind of people who follow Ferlic's examples. Instead I think of the likes of Admiral Thrawn, Baron Wulfenbach and "Gentleman" Baron Johnny Marcone.


All very great characters, that are drastically out of place in the setting being described. The OP specifically asked for someone " that is irredeemable while still being a person you find likable and sympathetic?" While also stating higher up that this character is attempting to destroy the world.



Also, whatever sympathetic backstory you may have, destroying the world is an act of mass murder and mass murder automatically counts as an evil in my book*. So don't expect me to shead a tear if I have to kill someone to prevent them form intentionally destroying the world.


I only said (in option 3) that she believed the world would end and everyone would die if she didn't. I never said that it wouldn't. If the world really is going to end and everyone is going to die, then her actions seem considerably less evil all of a sudden. It's all in perspective, which is why I tried to design those histories in that way.


-Felirc-

jseah
2009-09-24, 11:05 PM
It's really not much different from any other anti-villian. Genre has surprisingly little effect on character motivations.

Unless it's D&D, of course. Mainly due to raise dead.

You mentioned Nanoha, so I assume you watched the second season A's?

The knights of the book were quite well done there. All they want is for Hayate to live happily. And to do that, they have to fill the book.
Of course that pretty much blows the world up. And they don't know that.

So yes, the series would have taken a much more mature and darker tone if the knights had turned out dead. Which they should have by all accounts.

DarknessLord
2009-09-25, 01:19 AM
So yes, the series would have taken a much more mature and darker tone if the knights had turned out dead. Which they should have by all accounts.

Really? It was honestly presented as pretty logical why they survived, unless you mean from a narrative standpoint, in which case I think the nature of the genre says differently. But that's a bit off topic.

But yeah, I am gonna say that the A's route is probably the best but this villain in a place where they gotta choose between doing something bad, and having something bad happen, but I'd make the bad thing she is trying to avoid small but personal. What she has to do is way over the top compared to the bad thing she is trying to prevent. And for the irredeemablity make it clear that she doesn't regret it, and she'd make a similar choice if put in a comparable situation.

Fishy
2009-09-25, 04:48 AM
1) Superpowered Nietzschean: Before she went through Magical Puberty, this girl was a nobody. A loner, an outcast, constantly surrounded by people who acted like they're better than her.

Well, guess what: She's better than them. This isn't arrogance, it's a measurable fact. She can fly, and they can't. She can call down cosmic fire and punch through concrete, and they can't.

Why should she care about what the 'normal people' think? Why shouldn't she just take whatever she wants from whoever has it? What are they gonna do, throw her in jail?

Might be hard to make her likeable- she's basically a jerk the first time the PCs fight her. She would be a sociopath, except that her real society is super-powered magical girls. Humans don't count as people. If the PCs beat her senseless, she might actually like and respect them in a weird way, and try to pull a 'Join me and we can rule the world and maybe catch a movie sometime or just hang out or whatever, you know.'


2) Self-Hating Knight Templar: Power corrupts. Nobody should have the kind of power that the PCs have, because they'll inevitably turn into people like girl #1. Maybe she's a time traveler and she saw it herself, maybe she fell to the Dark Side and disgusted herself at what she was capable of- but our villain has decided that, for the good of humanity, Magical Girls of whatever stripe can't be allowed to live.

She summons up monsters because that always flushes out plucky magical-girl heroes, for some reason. She watches them, learns everything she can about them, and starts picking them off, one by one.

She can't be 'redeemed', because she doesn't want to do what she's doing. She understands and pities her prey, but they've just got to go. And once she's gotten every single one of them, all over the world, she'll go off and quietly kill herself, and that'll be the end of it.

Primal Fury
2009-09-25, 10:06 AM
Hmph. I'll take honest evil over pretention any day o' the week. :smalltongue:

Telonius
2009-09-25, 10:15 AM
To make her likeable? High-charisma, takes a genuine interest in one of the PCs. (Even evil people can fall in love). She actually does have some real grievance or cause she's fighting for that just happens to be at cross-purposes to the PCs.

Meet the PCs and interact with them in a friendly way before they realize they're on opposite sides of the struggle. Have her genuinely feel betrayed when she realizes the PCs are fighting against her. Not as in, "You betrayed me? Feel my wrath!" More like: "PC, how could you? Please, it's not too late. Help me in my fight... <sadly> I wish this could have been different."

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-25, 10:19 AM
To be honest? Magical Girl style Anime is best covered with Warlock.

1) All day uses of magical abilities. There's no limit to how many times you can use them

2) Limited Repitoire. You've got a few select abilities, some of which can be 'passive' and don't actually activate, or augment other abilities the class has.

3) Spiffy special effects. No, really. Chick with bat wings pointing and blasting you with a bolt of pure magic. This is the epitome of the genre. Can change flavor of bolt with a few Invocations.

4) Significant challenge. Built right, a Warlock can be a real challenge to a party. If nothing else, trying to lock one up is difficult with the ability to go invisible or DimDoor at will.

kamikasei
2009-09-25, 10:26 AM
To be honest? Magical Girl style Anime is best covered with Warlock.

Not outside D&D, it's not.

9mm
2009-09-25, 10:34 AM
... since no one else will say it.

Leather+whip= Win.