Evil Deities & Alignment

[The Neoclassic]

I was reading an excerpt from Fiendish Codex II today and it hit me: I really don't get why most folks would go evil if infinite punishment is truly the result, but it looks like standard D&D cosmology assumes torture for the evil for eternity (unless they're lucky enough to become devils/demons themselves).

The way I'm setting up my cosmology, alignment doesn't matter so much. Good deities are, yes, more likely to reward you and be merciful than evil ones, hence making good a very popular option, but being evil doesn't mean auto-fail. You're judged on your patron deity's code of conduct; a LE character could be punished or rewarded depending on how he played out his life compared to his LE god's dogma. Perhaps the god is OK with assassinations and deception, but has a no tolerance penalty for rape.

How do you usually run your campaigns? The former, the latter, or something else entirely? In your worlds, why do people worship non-good deities, and what consequences are there for being non-good after death?

[Dorizzit]

In the generic campaign, eternal punishment is a possible cost for evil...but you can eventually work your way up the ranks of the demons, obtaining immense power in the process. Additionally, particularly evil souls are often given shortcuts through the hierarchy.

[Copacetic]

I think the whole "eternal torment" bit is silly. Think about it for a second. You worship a LG god, and get everlasting gobstoppers as a reward. You worship an evil god, and they stick something sharp and red-hot in places you didn't knew existed. What?

But I know if they did but in, "Oh yeah, if you serve an evil god loyally he/she/it won't actually rape your soul for eternity, but be kinda nice to you" Dungeons and Dragons stock would go down the drain, and over-zealous people everywhere would hop on the band-wagon and slander it to dust.

[Ostien]

In the generic campaign, eternal punishment is a possible cost for evil...but you can eventually work your way up the ranks of the demons, obtaining immense power in the process. Additionally, particularly evil souls are often given shortcuts through the hierarchy.

This is how I have thought the generic settings work, you are tormented unless you gain favor. So for a powerful lawful evil character, you would start out in the afterlife as a higher ranked devil and for a demon you would be more powerful demon. So a powerful evil character may get rewarded but the was majority of evil minions will be low level servants and tormented.

Now, I also think that most of the lower level evil minors don't really know the full details of the afterlife and think they will be rewarded. So really the minions don't know what they are getting into.

Thats just the way it seems to work in a generic setting but you can always change that and remove the favoritism "good" gets. Yay moral relativism :smalltongue:

[Blue Ghost]

I don't really see a problem with the standard eternal punishment for evil approach. It makes evil a rather stupid and likely less popular option, but a lot of people will still choose it because people aren't always rational. For most characters, being evil isn't really consciously choosing the evil afterlife over the good one. People fall into evil without meaning to, or they choose evil because they're too lazy to try to be good.

While in the in-game universe there is sufficient evidence to conclude that evil people get punished in the afterlife, there isn't enough evidence that people cannot choose to ignore it if they want to. Not many people have actually seen the afterlife, after all. Those that have are generally those who have been resurrected, who have nothing but vague recollections, or clerics, who obviously have their own agenda. And it's not like the fiends would allow clerics to give guided tours through hell in order to deter people from evil. The fiends and evil deities probably have propaganda to make the Lower Planes not seem as bad as they are.

As to why people worship evil deities? Most people usually don't, if they can choose to worship good deities instead. Again, evil deities tend to utilize propaganda to attract followers under false pretenses. And some people may worship non-good deities (probably more the neutral ones than the evil ones, but the evil ones work too) because they think it's the right thing to do, even if they have to give up hope for a good afterlife to do so.

That's my interpretation of how things work. It may not be consistent with everything in the rules, but it's how I always thought of it.

[Ostien]

Another idea I usually incorporate is the fact that the alignment system can be reconciled with the idea of moral relativism. In the case of Faerun, Ao has forced gods to accept responsibility for profiles as well as alignments. So good and evil, law and chaos are only exist as tangible reality because the powerful gods will them to be and force that on the planes. Thus evil gods are as responsible for having their followers be smote as good gods are, and vice versa. All of it is an agreed upon system no more valid then any other but in place because... well "the Gods have willed it."

[taltamir]

but being evil doesn't mean auto-fail. You're judged on your patron deity's code of conduct; a LE character could be punished or rewarded depending on how he played out his life compared to his LE god's dogma. Perhaps the god is OK with assassinations and deception, but has a no tolerance penalty for rape.

That is chaotic good, not lawful evil.
Assassination and deception is chaotic, not evil and VERY MUCH not a lawful act.
Zero tolerance on rape is good, nothing to do with law and chaos.
So your god is the diametric opposite of the alignment you tried to assign it.

Evil gods would certainly recruit SOME evil people to do their bidding. But why should they care to reward them in an afterlife?

Your god determines your reward or punishment, but evil gods simply don't care about you. Especially if you were such a failure as to get yourself killed... now as long as you are living and serving their needs, well, great rewards will come your way. Including lichdom for immortality. And if you happen to die while being REALLY powerful, then you will not get eternal suffering.
Why? because they might not "care", but they are not stupid, you are powerful, that makes you useful. they will put you to work instead.

[Ostien]

Assassination and deception is chaotic, not evil and VERY MUCH not a lawful act.

Assassination can be lawful, it actually usually is. Assassination usually implies a hierarchy and payment and a contract. And deception being not lawful? Heh try talking to a lawyer :smalltongue:

[Grumman]

I don't really see a problem with the standard eternal punishment for evil approach. It makes evil a rather stupid and likely less popular option, but a lot of people will still choose it because people aren't always rational.
The problem with this approach is that it cheapens the choice to be Good, and makes acting "evil" anathema to the actual Evil worldview. It means you don't have Good vs. Evil any more, just Sane vs. Self-destructive.

[Vangor]

I consider deities to be making less formal Faustian pacts with parishioners. Of course, the problem with evil deities is those characteristics represented tend to be difficult to share. Greedy, tyrannical, or murderous folk don't coexist with other greedy, tyrannical, or murderous folk. Consider a divine power now, the incarnation of a trait, and the faithful who accept those as means to power, truth, whatever. Fortunately for the goodly folk, charity is simple to share, as are most such traits.

Of course, drugs, sex, and rock n' roll are simple enough to share and are now or have been considered evil in our own culture.

What I see in many games where evil is a possibility, such actions are greatly discouraged. Items increase in cost, people won't give quests, certain NPCs may simply attack you, and, as noted, whatever dark power worshiped probably has in mind many torments for you.

[Riffington]

You can certainly be evil and still oppose rape.
An evil deity does not necessarily stand for all evil that can possibly be done. If she did, we'd have Dualism, not a Pantheon. Plenty of them might oppose rape, oppose murder, or oppose theft. Hextor probably frowns upon all three, except in very limited versions (for example, he might believe in Prima Noctem).

And while I don't personally agree with the "plane of torment" idea, I don't see how it can trivialize morality. Plenty of people on Earth believe that their sins will be punished, yet commit them anyway. Good is hard.

[taltamir]

The problem with this approach is that it cheapens the choice to be Good, and makes acting "evil" anathema to the actual Evil worldview. It means you don't have Good vs. Evil any more, just Sane vs. Self-destructive.

that is very true.
When doing "evil" is not "knowing what is right and not doing it" but "altruistically doing what you believe is right due even if it requires self sacrifice" than you are no longer evil.

This is how "evil" is in most CRPGs where they give you "choice"... the "choice" to be evil is a huge sacrifice you must make to satisfy an arbitrary and insane belief system.

Example, man offers to pay you 300 gold to retrieve his wedding ring from sewer. Retrieve ring... check with a merchant, it is worth 30 gold. Go to man... "good choice" that gives you good karma, give him the ring for the reward. "bad choice" that gives you bad karma? tell him you are gonna keep it, for extra bad, kill him too... remember, he is offering to pay you 10 times its value... oh and you don't see a cent off of him if killed...

This is a real example from arcanum... which is actually not nearly as bad as things like fable 2 (now that got REALLY stupid).

[Riffington]

that is very true.
When doing "evil" is not "knowing what is right and not doing it" but "altruistically doing what you believe is right due even if it requires self sacrifice" than you are no longer evil.

I want to make sure I understand what you're saying.
If you believe that half-elves are an abomination, and work tirelessly to kill them all and drive the elves from human lands... and you altruistically donate your paychecks and your time to this work... you're no longer evil?

Wouldn't this mean that all clerics of evil deities have to be Good-aligned?

[JonestheSpy]

Well, there's a real problem with people "choosing" to be evil in a reality where folk know exactly what afterlife awaits them. It just isn't comprable with the world as know it.

my take is that most people don't know. Knowledge of the planes and how they work is metagame knowledge, not what available to the vast majority. And evil dieties and their clerics lie, period. They'll iunsist that ideas of justice and karma are lies meant to fool the weak, and that the more evil one does, the better off one will be in the hereafter, for whatever reason best fits their philosophy. Think of thecaptured Sauron teaching Ar-Pharazon and the rest of the Numernoreans that the true god was named Melkor and wanted human sacrifice...

Really the only ones with a decent probability of becoming demonic beings after death instead of tortured souls would be the clerics of the evil gods, as they are the dieties' direct servants, and even they should be in for the unpleasant surprise that being a fiendish creature is a different kind of torture unto itself.

Also let's not forget people's own inherent capacities for self-deception, and willingness to beleive ridiculous things to justify their actions without admitting their immorality. The popualitons of Nazi Germany and the Confederacy didn't think of themselves as evil, they'd convinced themselves they were the good guys.

[taltamir]

I want to make sure I understand what you're saying.
If you believe that half-elves are an abomination, and work tirelessly to kill them all and drive the elves from human lands... and you altruistically donate your paychecks and your time to this work... you're no longer evil?

Wouldn't this mean that all clerics of evil deities have to be Good-aligned?

correct, you are not evil, you are insane.
There is a clear difference between evil and insanity.

Although elves are likely not to care, and to them you are evil... But then again, to you THEY are evil.

[taltamir]

my take is that most people don't know.

Impossible, if they didn't know than half the spells make no sense whatsoever...

Now they might know that "monsters X,Y,Z and wizards who can cast 7th order spells are immune to this spell", without knowing what "HD" is... but they are aware that when a wizard gains the ability to cast a spell of a certain level, he also gains immunity to other spells. Also that spells have levels... they are also aware of the 6 prime attributes because they have spells AND magic items that buff them... etc.

[olentu]

Perhaps he is referring to how Joe McPeasant might not even know what his horse is or common locations in his own home town much less what the planes even are.

[taltamir]

Perhaps he is referring to how Joe McPeasant might not even know what his horse is or common locations in his own home town much less what the planes even are.

i remember reading that "most commoners" (or maybe it was many?) know a "spell or two" partaining to their work or daily lives, like a spell to clean themselves, help with dinner, etc...

I also thought he was referring to the PCs... yea i'd expect the local dirt farmer to know less about magic and the planes then a level 10 wizard. :)

[SurlySeraph]

My take is that most people who worship evil deities know that being evil can get them either great power or great torment in the afterlife. Most of them assume they're important enough to get the power. The ones that have the Wisdom to realize that they're not actually important enough for their gods to care about not torturing them are likely clerics or otherwise highly religious, and therefore serve their deities well enough that they're less likely to be tormented in the afterlife.
The few evil people who come back from and remember the afterlife are probably important enough that they weren't tormented, so they'll tell their co-religionists how great everything is. And even if they were tormented, they'll likely tell people that everything was great anyway. They're evil. Why would they tell someone the truth when lying will make them more loyal?

[taltamir]

My take is that most people who worship evil deities know that being evil can get them either great power or great torment in the afterlife. Most of them assume they're important enough to get the power. The ones that have the Wisdom to realize that they're not actually important enough for their gods to care about not torturing them are likely clerics or otherwise highly religious, and therefore serve their deities well enough that they're less likely to be tormented in the afterlife.
The few evil people who come back from and remember the afterlife are probably important enough that they weren't tormented, so they'll tell their co-religionists how great everything is. And even if they were tormented, they'll likely tell people that everything was great anyway. They're evil. Why would they tell someone the truth when lying will make them more loyal?

I totally agree with you on every single count. Very well thought out.

[Oracle_Hunter]

My take is that most people who worship evil deities know that being evil can get them either great power or great torment in the afterlife. Most of them assume they're important enough to get the power. The ones that have the Wisdom to realize that they're not actually important enough for their gods to care about not torturing them are likely clerics or otherwise highly religious, and therefore serve their deities well enough that they're less likely to be tormented in the afterlife.
The few evil people who come back from and remember the afterlife are probably important enough that they weren't tormented, so they'll tell their co-religionists how great everything is. And even if they were tormented, they'll likely tell people that everything was great anyway. They're evil. Why would they tell someone the truth when lying will make them more loyal?
Like this, but more so.

What does the Classic Good Deity offer his worshipers? A swanky afterlife.
What does the Classic Evil Deity offer his worshipers? A swanky life

Evil is the shortcut to Real Ultimate Power and for folks who are either too shortsighted or too confident in their success, it can be a highly compelling option. That punishment in the afterlife? Strictly for losers - and everyone thinks they're a winner, no? :smallwink:

Plus, if you think the End Times are coming, worshiping the Evil God may guarantee that you suffer less than the rest of the world; this is known as the Cthulhu's Choice strategy :smallbiggrin:

[The Neoclassic]

That is chaotic good, not lawful evil.
Assassination and deception is chaotic, not evil and VERY MUCH not a lawful act.
Zero tolerance on rape is good, nothing to do with law and chaos.
So your god is the diametric opposite of the alignment you tried to assign it.

Excuse me? I do NOT want this to turn into an alignment debate. You do not have full information on my deities or how I view the D&D alignment system so please don't be correcting my hypothetical (since it was, after all, an example) when much relevent information isn't included. Just because a deity says no to one evil act doesn't make them good! Frankly, that's ridiculous; if that was the case, any villain who said "Rape is bad- I won't do it" would be good even if they lied and murdered for personal gain. Furthermore, killing IS evil by most standards. Unless of course you play the "Kill anything that looks like it might be evil- including everything with green skin- and you're a hero" system of mortality, which I despise. :smallyuk: In conclusion, the presented example is absolutely not CG (not to mention I don't run deities in the alignment straighjacket in the way most people do; deity alignments are more human approxiamations than anything else) and I have no interest to discussing this further.


Your god determines your reward or punishment, but evil gods simply don't care about you.

OK, so we have the stereotype of "Evil characters can't, don't, and won't give a damn about anyone or anything other than themselves." Evil characters can't love or have families or keep promises! They have to rape and murder and betray everyone! :smallannoyed:


Anyway, everyone here seems to be running on an extreme definition of evil which I don't use, so thanks anyway but I guess starting this thread was a very bad idea. I understand the limited knowledge of the afterlife and fooling one's self into thinking one's doing the right thing approaches, and I use both to an extent, but neither can justify the vast majority of worshippers being punished eternally from my perspective. Go ahead and keep talking about how your evil deities act; I see this will have no relevence for my campaign whatsoever. I'm leaving before people start telling me I'm wrong for running an alignment system where evil doesn't have to mean puppy-eating rapists. :smallyuk:

[Morty]

Alright, so in an attempt to save this thread... the other option I see is that people might worship evil gods in order to try and avoid eternal punishment. Because they suspect that with the way they act, they might end up in a bad place when they die, so they pray to evil deities because they think they'll give them a good place in the afterlife, and who's better set to save you from burning in hell than the guy who runs the place? This is sort of how it works in Faerun, where it doesn't matter as much who do you worship, as long as you worship someone.

[The Neoclassic]

Alright, so in an attempt to save this thread... the other option I see is that people might worship evil gods in order to try and avoid eternal punishment. Because they suspect that with the way they act, they might end up in a bad place when they die, so they pray to evil deities because they think they'll give them a good place in the afterlife, and who's better set to save you from burning in hell than the guy who runs the place? This is sort of how it works in Faerun, where it doesn't matter as much who do you worship, as long as you worship someone.

Oh, Morty. I wasn't planning on reading this thread any more (to prevent more snippiness on my part), but you've always been very reasonable from what I've seen in the past, so I had to check. I do think this is an intriguing approach. Has potential, really (though it does assume Great Wheel sort of cosmology), especially for individuals who just lack the self-discipline to follow a lot of the good gods' requirements or are in environments where to act selflessly would mean pretty quick and unpleasant death.

[Lkctgo]

I think the whole "eternal torment" bit is silly. Think about it for a second. You worship a LG god, and get everlasting gobstoppers as a reward. You worship an evil god, and they stick something sharp and red-hot in places you didn't knew existed. What?

But I know if they did but in, "Oh yeah, if you serve an evil god loyally he/she/it won't actually rape your soul for eternity, but be kinda nice to you" Dungeons and Dragons stock would go down the drain, and over-zealous people everywhere would hop on the band-wagon and slander it to dust.

Actually, Evil Gods usually treat their petitioners and worshippers just fine. Unless they feel bad, then they kill you. THEY ARE EVIL after all. It's the Devils that torture you, and that's only because they need the divine energy, seeing as the Gods neglect giving them any due to the Pact Primeval. Even demons don't torture you, just that they use their troops as fodder in the Blood War.

[Lvl45DM!]

Well its stupid
the idea of Hell in Christian mythology is NOT that therell be all these guys in red pyjamas sticking pitchforks in your butt!
the demons are getting punished as well! satan most of all

[Sir_Elderberry]

So you're Joe McCommoner, from a long, proud line of McCommoners. You've been thinking about your place in the multiverse and how it all works out, so you go talk to some local clerics.

The cleric of Pelor tells you that Pelor will reward those who act Good after death, and promises eternal bliss in his holy realm.

The cleric of Shar/Bane/Hextor tells you that Pelor only wants to deny you true glory. Act for the greatness of [Deity] and you will be rewarded beyond your wildest dreams, in this life AND the next one.

Now, Evil Cleric could be lying. But you're Joe McCommoner, and no McCommoner ever took a rank in Knowledge (planes), so you don't know. The cleric of Pelor says that eternal punishment awaits you if you listen to him, but he's...kind of biased. You'd ask someone else, but since most of the people you know are NPC classes lower than level five, they can't help much either.

In my mind, the choice is going to conform with the alignment you already are, as a person. An evil person will be inclined to believe someone who "speaks their language", and a good person will be swayed by appeals to mercy, etc.

No, it doesn't make much sense. But that's why 95% of the population sticks to the good or neutral gods. If the evil gods were much more popular, you wouldn't need PCs to clear out cults, because they'd be more socially acceptable.

[Lvl45DM!]

Ooooo elderberry makes sense
even if hes married to a hamster

[Volkov]

If your evil, you still get a good after-life. Although it will suck first. It's typically better for you if you worshiped a god.

[taltamir]

OK, so we have the stereotype of "Evil characters can't, don't, and won't give a damn about anyone or anything other than themselves." Evil characters can't love or have families or keep promises! They have to rape and murder and betray everyone! :smallannoyed:

Actually I am very much opposed to this kind of mindset. As I always say, if you sacrifice your friends, family, wealth etc to be "evil" then you are actually altruistically following a flawed dogma.

But since when is the PC the family of an evil god?

As for the whole "rape and murder" thing. You gave two examples, assassination, and rape.
Rape is bad is a good thing, even an "evil" person might have some good in them, it is a good act to oppose it. but one good act doesn't mean you aren't evil.

Assassination is not an "evil" thing, it is a chaotic thing. It might be evil if you assassinate innocents for wealth, it is certainly good if you assassinate evil.

The thing is, you use those two things as EXAMPLES of how to define your so called "lawful evil deity".. now it might be that the deity is really lawful evil and you just chose extremely poor examples of chaotic and good things that it does, and it is possible to lawful evil while doing the occasional good or chaotic thing, even for a deity. but those ACTS that you chose to use as examples are neither evil nor lawful.

[Haarkla]

I really don't get why most folks would go evil if infinite punishment is truly the result,

The way I'm setting up my cosmology, ... You're judged on your patron deity's code of conduct; ... Perhaps the god is OK with assassinations and deception, but has a no tolerance penalty for rape.

How do you usually run your campaigns? The former, the latter, or something else entirely? In your worlds, why do people worship non-good deities, and what consequences are there for being non-good after death?
Something else entirely. In my campaign evil deities are powerful spirits who offer forbidden power and dark rewards in exchange for worship. The afterlife is a mystery, returning from the dead is very rare.

[Dr. Lagrangian]

How about the idea that the afterlife is always a reward... just viewed differently.

I figure people of a similar outlook go to similar afterlives.

So a group of nature enthusiasts who don't like governments tyrannizing over them arrive in the afterlife, see it full of forests and stuff, and just hang out there living in harmony with nature.

A group who focus on the merits of peaceful civilization controlled by laws and codexes end up in their afterlife, tame the forests, build cities and laws, and everyone there lives in peace following those rules.

A group who likes nothing else but to kill anyone and believe in might makes right (belkars) die and get to the afterlife. They look around, see each other, and start killing each other, taking anything of value while trying not to be killed.

A group that are liars and thieves in life see each other in the afterlife and say "look at all those easy marks" and build an afterlife based on lying, stealing, and cheating everyone out of their material possessions.

To each group, the other would be hell.
The nature lovers are too hippyish, have nothing to steal, aren't fun to kill.
The city builders are too rigid, have too strong laws that prevent cons and murder.
The con artists are too materialistic, too corrupt, or talk too much.
The murderers are too violent, have no respect for laws, or too unpredictable to deal with.


So its not a torment. An evil person is evil because they like being evil. To the person, there is no such thing as alignment, they simply are the way they are because its who they want to be. When they die, whatever their ideals are, they get to use those ideals on others, and have it be used on them.

Sure to a good guy, sharing ideals seems good, and from his perspective the bad guys are tormented eternally by their own brethren. But to the evil guy, this "torment" is just the name of the game, and the good guys just don't understand how the world is supposed to work.

Torment only really happens when a person does things that they really wouldn't do or don't understand. Psychology is complex this way. You can have someone who lives a happy life, but because of some repressed trauma gets really angry sometimes and becomes violent. Or someone who steals to get attention. When they get into their afterlives they might find that it doesn't fit their personality. The Guy who drinks out of depression and becomes violent to his wife isn't violent all the time, but he'll end up in the murderer's afterlife, and will hate it. Perhaps if he stopped drinking, he'd end up in the City Builder's afterlife, but he never stopped his behavior and atoned. The thief would rather be in the nature preserve where he could be loved by all the fuzzy animals, but instead hes in Con-land, and fairs even worse.

that's my take on it.

[Fiery Diamond]

correct, you are not evil, you are insane.
There is a clear difference between evil and insanity.

Although elves are likely not to care, and to them you are evil... But then again, to you THEY are evil.

Um, no. BOTH Sociopaths AND Psychopaths are EVIL. As are people who are deluded and do evil things because of it.

[Masaioh]

Um, no. BOTH Sociopaths AND Psychopaths are EVIL. As are people who are deluded and do evil things because of it.

Sociopathy is defined as the psychological inability to show emotion or caring for others. Depending on the characters mental ability scores, wouldn't it sometimes be neutral like an animal that is unable to make proper moral decisions?

[Count Dravda]

In the alignment debate, it's important to remember that there are multiple takes on alignment. D&D assumes by default a "high fantasy" system, where evil is evil and good is good. It makes for a nice story, but it's not for everyone. Fiery Diamond just pointed out that, according to the Book of Vile Darkness, insanity makes you evil. It's not realistic by real world standards at ALL: insanity is just a disease that we can treat.

Many people prefer to take a more objective approach. In this situation, there could be a paladin who believes in all the standard paladin-type stuff, and there could also be a paladin who believes that humans are the superior race and any others are fit only for slavery or extinction. Neither of these men think of themselves as evil: they just think they're upholding goodness. Since the other is evil by their standards, if they were to meet on the field of battle, they could smite each other. Or maybe alignment-based stuff is just removed from play: it certainly makes pointing out the priest of Erythnul easier if you can just scan the room with Detect Evil for the Overwhelming source.

Neither of these options is better than the other, but simply different for what kind of game you want to play.

In any case, in my world, most people don't know much about the afterlife. Sir_Elderberry said it best. Information is simply too hard to come by, and those who are raised from the dead get only have faint impressions (like Roy did when he was Resurrected).

An interesting point, however, is that Hell in D&D was intentionally made less like the Christian Hell in order to avoid upsetting people. Check the D&D podcasts: I don't remember which one, but there was an interview in which they discussed fiends and how at one point they completely pulled the words "demons" and "devils" and replaced them with "tanar'ri" and "baatezu." So in the default Great Wheel cosmology, torture happens not for eternity in Hell, but just when you first get in, so that they can extract all the pain from you as possible before tossing the shattered remnant of your soul to become a Lemure. It should be worth noting, however, that Heaven is awesome and Hell still sucks.

-Count Dravda

[Masaioh]

*Wall of Text*

Yeah, pretty much. I'll have to look for that part in BoVD.

My group, for example, takes the objective approach. Certain acts are inherently good, evil, lawful, chaotic or neutral, but they have exceptions. Killing a commoner is evil except in self defense, but killing a goblin is typically either neutral or good.

I also disagree about the hell part. Hell is awesome, and so is the abyss. Especially Zelatar.

[Myou]

In my setting the dead all end up grouped by alignment but the planes where they end up are basically just like the real world, but a little prettier/more chaotic/uglier/more predictable, so the punishment for being evil is just being trapped in a world where everyone is evil. Some lucky few will get ahead, most will be mierable. The reason why it pays to be good is because, as the parable about heaven and hell goes, when people help eachother they're a lot happier than when they help only themselves.

[HamHam]

[snip]

This.

Worshiping an Evil God is actually a better bet than not because the divine realms of most evil gods are better than the Nine Hells or the Abyss, and if you pleased your god in life you can probably expect a decent reward (though obviously being evil gods they will do various terrible things to you if you piss them off, but on the plus side you get to indulge the various evil vices you have which the good gods would not let you get away with).

Devils though, they are totally trying to trick you into Hell. So if you end up in Baator you are up a creek with no paddle.

Basically, the reasons for being evil are:

1) You enjoy doing evil things, and are willing to risk the consequences to get to do those evil things.

2) You care more about the short term gains you can make than the fate of your soul later. While short sighted, that is not exactly surprising behavior in humans.

3) You think something is worth doing evil for.

[Volkov]

This.

Worshiping an Evil God is actually a better bet than not because the divine realms of most evil gods are better than the Nine Hells or the Abyss, and if you pleased your god in life you can probably expect a decent reward (though obviously being evil gods they will do various terrible things to you if you piss them off, but on the plus side you get to indulge the various evil vices you have which the good gods would not let you get away with).

Devils though, they are totally trying to trick you into Hell. So if you end up in Baator you are up a creek with no paddle.

Basically, the reasons for being evil are:

1) You enjoy doing evil things, and are willing to risk the consequences to get to do those evil things.

2) You care more about the short term gains you can make than the fate of your soul later. While short sighted, that is not exactly surprising behavior in humans.

3) You think something is worth doing evil for.
It may suck at first, but after a while, things become good.

[taltamir]

Um, no. BOTH Sociopaths AND Psychopaths are EVIL. As are people who are deluded and do evil things because of it.

neither of those two words means "someone who altruistically follows a dogma of cruelty and murder at great personal sacrifice and expense because they believe it to be right"

They kill because human life is worth to them what a cockroach life is worth to most (non Buddhists).
Would you go to great lengths of personal sacrifice and danger to slay cockroaches because you believe it to be the right moral thing to do even if society tells you it is illegal and the penalty for it is death? I would guess no.

[Myou]

Um, no. BOTH Sociopaths AND Psychopaths are EVIL. As are people who are deluded and do evil things because of it.

You're wrong. You better look more closely at the two disorders, before you start calling the sufferers evil. :smallannoyed:

[hamishspence]

D&D alignment, according to BoVD, Champions of Ruin, etc is focussed far more on acts, than beliefs.

A person who does acts, defined by the system, as seriously evil, on a regular basis, is evil, even if they are insane.

Insanity is not a "get-out clause" in this setting- most insane+destructive entities are Evil, rather than Neutral.

Concerning "zero tolerance" its this allied to brutal and overly severe punishment of crimes, that is a hallmark of a LE system.

A judge who imposes excessively savage penalties for certain crimes is Neutral at best and Evil at worst, even if he can be characterised as "punishing evil"

So you could have a person who is so fanatically opposed to certain Evil behaviours, that they descend into Evil themselves, in their methods of fighting it.

This is actually quite a common trope.

[Johel]

If you've commited act of such evil that you're going to hell anyway, you better go all the way to it and worship the Dark Gods.

At least, you'll be increadibly powerful during your mortal life, thanks to their magic. As for those who don't become clerics but still worship the Dark Gods, maybe they think they'll get a better treatment once dead ? Or they just admire the evil god ? It's a faith-thing. People don't follow a religion because of interest (well...most of the time). They do it because the lifestyle it promotes fit them, giving them moral support.

A God who tell you "burn, maim, make people suffer and enjoy yourself" can be popular simply because the rest of the society is perceived as too strict. The eternal punishement is a problem but dumb people won't think too much about it. Smart people will simply avoid death.

[Hyudra]

I can't imagine that things break down so simply as 'If you are good and worship a good god, you go to heaven.' and 'if you are bad you go to hell'. I think each god would have their own set of standards/expectations that would impact the given afterlife:


Pelor, on the most basic level, would ask people to live a virtuous life, with a focus on things like charity, generosity, kindness, hope and patience. Being an all encompassing god (The sun shines on all who turn their face to meet it), worshiping Pelor would be a pretty easy road to heaven. Clerics would go a step beyond that and strive to promote life over death and light over darkness - missions would be healing the sick, preventing plagues, banishing undead and combating those things that shun the sun (orcs, vampires). It wouldn't be possible to genuinely worship Pelor and not go to Elysium.

Heironeous would be much the same, but it would not be unexpected for there to be regular services (given that he's a lawful god). Given that he's a more martial god, those services might double as training for his order. His code would ask people to focus on more knightly virtues like justice, mercy, diligence, courage, nobility and strength. Given that it would be hard to worship the de-facto paladin god without actually going out and combating evil, he'd have a pretty small but hardcore following. His priests would generally work to combat evil wherever it could be found, using earned respect to climb the ranks and establish themselves in powerful positions like generals and admirals. I imagine a follower of Heironeous would be offered heaven so long as they stayed virtuous, with Celestia as the ultimate destination, and Arcadia as a sort of purgatory for those who weren't as virtuous as they could have been. You'd really have to screw up to go to Baator.

Kord is the dragonslayer, the often overlooked god of heroes. The religion might not be particularly organized with a power structure or services, but would focus largely on 'do what you know in your heart to be right'. The main role of the temple would be as a training ground and a sharing of resources for those who would use strength to bring joy (and prevent sadness) from reaching others. Recruitment might happen more from the fact that there's ale and young lads/lasses hot for muscular hero-types rather than through preaching. Think of the cliched sports movie where one 'fights hard, stays true to themselves' and ends up winning in the end - only it's dying and going to Ysgard rather than winning the ball game.

A nature god would probably preach reincarnation.

Hextor is the god of tyranny. (He's also my favorite god, so forgive me for rambling) In a metropolis, worshiping him wouldn't be a matter of choice. I can imagine Hextor's servants walking the streets, finding young bullies, outcasts and thugs and then offering to take them off the authorities/parent's hands. Cart them off to a fortress temple and train them hard and brutally. The idea would be to shape their way of seeing the world: enough food for three people, five people at the table; homework you could only complete if you forced another student to do a share; harsh punishment for all failures. Those that survive the experience with mind and body intact become clerics and despots, those who don't become foot soldiers. Hextor is described by some sources as the only evil temple one would find in the open - they do this by making themselves a fixture - you can't say 'we abolish the temple of Hextor' if the temple soldiers are the only thing keeping orcs off your doorstep. (The fact that they incited the orc attacks in the first place to gain such leverage is a moot point.) Proper worship would mean focusing on the 'virtues' of pride, law, power, strength and aspiration. Keeping slaves, defeating Heironeous wherever he might stand and gaining political power through the corruption of officials or gaining of rank for oneself would be common paths to worship. A terrible afterlife in Baator is an inevitable fact of life for those recruited as foot soldiers, while the clerics and despots (Anti-paladins, paladins of tyranny, etc) are told that if they gain enough power and influence for themselves and for Hextor, they will be reborn as powerful devils in the afterlife (True, but exaggerated in how much influence one has to gain and how many thousands of years it will take after they get to Baator). Individual worshipers of Hextor, in regions where the Tyrant God has not gained a foothold in the government, would likely follow the similar path of thinking 'I'm going to be a devil, not a tormented soul'.

Worshipers of death gods like Nerull/Orcus tend to fall into the worship as a trap - you pay lip service to an occult god for a little extra power, and before you know it, you're in too deep. This leads to the cliche of death priests and necromancers striving for lichedom before they shed the mortal coil, because they know Tartarus awaits them. They worship more and worship harder because they need every bit of power they can claim to evade the afterlife before they run out of time. For Vecna, it's a similar 'slippery slope' path as with the gods of death and undeath, but you're searching for a powerful secret (whether a literal fountain of youth, the means by which to blackmail a god, etc) rather than eternal undeath.

Chaotic evil gods like Erythnul might vary in how they lure people in, even from cult to cult. Deception and lies might be the method for one group, as they convince a band of ravagers that devouring the raw hearts of innocents will sustain them forever. Another band might use force - raid a village and force a young woman to kill her family, tell her she is damned so why keep clinging to morality? The idea here is that evil begets evil and Erythnul thrives on such. You can picture a scenario where a ranger tracks a band of Erythnul's Ravagers for revenge and descends to such levels of sadism and brutality that the line between him and them simply disappears. His revenge gets him no satisfaction and he descends into madness, becoming what he hunted for so long.

The trend with evil gods, as I see it, is that one rarely chooses to worship them, and when one does, they're fully convinced that they won't suffer in hell: It could be because they served their gods so well that they'll be the tormentors rather than the tormentees, or it could be because they think they found a way out (undeath, a secret, a loophole).

[hamishspence]

the general rule is, the worshippers of LE deities, rather than devils, do indeed become Fiendish Humanoids, rather than mindless lemures.

(which occasionally get promoted from this state, but do not retain living memories)

For example, worshippers of Kurtulmak don't become lemures- they become Fiendish Kobolds. Worshippers of Sekolah don't become lemures, they become Fiendish Sahaugin. And so on.

Each of the Lawful Evil deities that reside in Baator, do so in its own domain, and the souls devoted to them go there.

Whether the deity rewards sufficiently faithful and powerful souls with an "evil heaven" so to speak, is a different question- possibly, in some cases.

[HamHam]

the general rule is, the worshippers of LE deities, rather than devils, do indeed become Fiendish Humanoids, rather than mindless lemures.

(which occasionally get promoted from this state, but do not retain living memories)

For example, worshippers of Kurtulmak don't become lemures- they become Fiendish Kobolds. Worshippers of Sekolah don't become lemures, they become Fiendish Sahaugin. And so on.

Each of the Lawful Evil deities that reside in Baator, do so in its own domain, and the souls devoted to them go there.

Whether the deity rewards sufficiently faithful and powerful souls with an "evil heaven" so to speak, is a different question- possibly, in some cases.

Wouldn't they become Petitioners? Which I don't think would be just slapping the Fiendish template on.

[hamishspence]

Soul shells are petitioners of the Nine Hells- and get transformed into lemures- but petioners which aren't devil-corrupted, but deity-followers, tend to get different fates.

Manual of the Planes points out that, depending on the cosmology, one of the possible fates for afterlife souls is to be transformed in celestial/fiendish/anarchic/axiomatic creatures.

So, for deity-worshippping LE souls, there is pecedent in MotP, for the suggestion in Fiendish Codex 2, that they become fiendish creatures, rather than "normal petitioners".

MoTP provides the petitioner template (which is, basically, adding the Outsider type, plus a few very minor bonuses)

The main difference between this and the Fiendish template, is that Fiendish adds the Extraplanar subtype, but does not change the base type.

A Fiendish Human is still a humanoid, not an outsider- and can be resurrected. A petitioner in its normal form can't (without True Resurrection, or Revive Outsider.)

Player's Guide to Faerun provides numerous sample petitioners- with, here, lemures and manes being the base petitioners for Baator and the Abyss.

Call it a discretionary ability to modify their worshippers if you like, but the books make it clear that some deities are served by fiendish-template versions of mortal creatures, and (at least in the cases of Kurtulmak and Sekolah) these creatures are transformed mortal souls.

[Ledeas]

What does the Classic Good Deity offer his worshipers? A swanky afterlife.
What does the Classic Evil Deity offer his worshipers? A swanky life




What about a Neutral God? Do we get Rice and water for all life and eternity?
I can exist with that...

[deuxhero]

Assassination can be lawful, it actually usually is. Assassination usually implies a hierarchy and payment and a contract. And deception being not lawful? Heh try talking to a lawyer :smalltongue:

As messed up as alignment is, particularly law/chaos (One iconic is lawful because of their devotion and another is chaotic because of their devotion) and as much I would prefer to ditch the system entirely, the non-evil assassin (Avenger) class must be lawful (though it is doing it for his country).

[potatocubed]

The way I see it, good deities say something like "Be nice to other people right now, and I'll be nice after your eventual death." Evil deities say something like "You can have real ultimate power right now, but when you die your soul becomes a chew toy for my demonic hordes." It's the classic Faustian bargain.

That said, game mechanics don't inherently reflect this. Evil clerics are no more mechanically powerful than good clerics, although in a traditional 'good PCs versus evil everything' game, the GM can just make sure all evil clerics are a few levels higher than their good counterparts.

The other option is the whole 'propitiation' system, such as Umberlee in the Forgotten Realms. People don't worship evil gods so much as they do what they say in fear that if they don't, the god will land on them with both feet. Of course, this doesn't address the afterlife problem, so.

[taltamir]

As messed up as alignment is, particularly law/chaos (One iconic is lawful because of their devotion and another is chaotic because of their devotion) and as much I would prefer to ditch the system entirely, the non-evil assassin (Avenger) class must be lawful (though it is doing it for his country).

I am with you on that one... I HATE the alignment system.

[The Neoclassic]

OK, now this is getting more interesting. Sorry if I got pissy earlier; I'm just really sensitive to anything that sounds like "NO! YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG! THEY MUST BE LIKE THIS AND ANYTHING ELSE IS NOT OK." So sometimes I might see that when it's not *quite* what the person meant. :smalltongue:

The traditional D&D sourcebook way of running this is quite interesting, but I'm realizing it's quite far from my approach. For example, plenty of evil faiths are semi-open, rather than tricksy cults. In some ways I guess my take on evil isn't really that evil. My good and evil are fuzzy, general trends, and of course my moral sensibilities impact things. On one thread people were horrified because I stated that I'd consider not washing one's hands after going to the bathroom to be an evil act. Why? Exposing others to your germs (including potentially really nasty ones that can kill and do, such as hepatitis) out of blatant negligence, with them having no say in the matter, is essentially placing others in harm's way without any good reason except your own sloth. Super-evil? No. But slightly.

My gods are also very protective of their worshippers. They made humanoids, they craft their souls, and so generally they love them. They do view humanoids much like their children; even most evil parents wouldn't damn their kids for eternity. (Again, going by my evil-doesn't-require-baby-eating definition). Those who might be evil in many spheres (including the values they teach their children) don't have to be jerks to their "children", particularly those who were obedient & useful! Finally, alignment is a force that coexists with deities rather than defining them. It's a good moral benchmark and defines many outsiders, as well as being a source of magical power, but when even a lot of the worshippers can't agree on the deity's "real" alignment, you know they aren't going to fit into the good/evil, law/chaos mold too neatly. :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

I'm surprised that there is an "evil requires baby eating" attitude to the game- BoVD doesn't support that, nor does Fienidsh Codex 2, nor Champions of Ruin.

They do suggest that evil people have to be jerks to somebody or something, but "jerk" doesn't mean "Complete Monster".

Eberron accentuates this, but it isn't the only setting suggesting it. Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting included among its sample NPCs a couple of "tavern bullies" who do little real harm, but are unpleasant characters.

Savage Species described how people who do evil generally compartmentalize- treating some people badly, but people close to them well.

[taltamir]

real evil is far too distasteful for people... and also too easy to argue about whether it is or isn't evil... requiring it to be baby eating can circumvent all of that.

[hamishspence]

but it does tend to contradict pretty much every D&D novel, D&D sourcebook with lots of NPCs in, etc.

Easier, I think, to leave "acts listed as evil in the books" as they are, and decide others on a case by case basis.

If "humanity tends toward no alignment, not even neutral" you can make a case that very roughly 1/3 of the total human population is of Evil alignment- which means the player can't just Smite everything that detects as evil, but has to proceed carefully, using appropriate methods to the situations, rather than "Kill All Evils"

Eberron, and to a lesser extent, Faerun, work more like this. Possibly Greyhawk may do so as well.

[taltamir]

or you can just say "there is no such thing as alignment. players and DMs should assign their own logical moral values to thing. Any spell that is based on alignment will instead be based on a deity"

So "smite evil" becomes "smite that which my god specifically is enemy of". for palor it can be undead, for vecna paladins, for any god... anyone who specifically murders a high ranking cleric is now smitable, etc...
For an extra twist, if you try to smite someone that your god DOES NOT want you to kill, then it backfires.

[hamishspence]

its an option, but it does diverge somewhat from the traditional assumptions of the setting.

Eberron blurs the lines a bit, but it doesn't erase them altogether.

[Foryn Gilnith]

And it sort of messes around with the mechanics to the point where I'd really consider just cutting away said mechanics altogether.

[Jayabalard]

You're wrong. You better look more closely at the two disorders, before you start calling the sufferers evil. :smallannoyed:Being "sick" is not a "get out of being labeled as evil" card.

[hamishspence]

Plus, we are talking in D&D terms.

[Jergmo]

In the generic campaign, eternal punishment is a possible cost for evil...but you can eventually work your way up the ranks of the demons, obtaining immense power in the process. Additionally, particularly evil souls are often given shortcuts through the hierarchy.

This. It's why the Drow feast on puppies and kittens. There was an excerpt about this in the guidebook to the Drow, a Drow torturer talking about it after having a laugh after a scholar that wanted to learn about Drow told him to write down (his tongue had been cut out) what he thought of the Drow now that he knew, and he went on about how horrible they are and that he hopes they burn in Hell.

[Murdim]

Being "sick" is not a "get out of being labeled as evil" card.While I don't want to see this topic degenerate in a mental illness related flame war the same way... some other topic recently did, I must say that being a psychopath or a sociopath is certainly NOT enough to qualify as Evil. They're, at worst, surmountable dispositions towards a certain kind of typically Evil behaviors.

[Jergmo]

I'm surprised that there is an "evil requires baby eating" attitude to the game- BoVD doesn't support that, nor does Fienidsh Codex 2, nor Champions of Ruin.

They do suggest that evil people have to be jerks to somebody or something, but "jerk" doesn't mean "Complete Monster".

Eberron accentuates this, but it isn't the only setting suggesting it. Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting included among its sample NPCs a couple of "tavern bullies" who do little real harm, but are unpleasant characters.

Savage Species described how people who do evil generally compartmentalize- treating some people badly, but people close to them well.

If You're So Evil, Eat This Kitten! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitle6vgp6b47)

[Jayabalard]

While I don't want to see this topic degenerate in a mental illness related flame war the same way... some other topic recently did, I must say that being a psychopath or a sociopath is certainly NOT enough to qualify as Evil. They're, at worst, surmountable dispositions towards a certain kind of typically Evil behaviors.I didn't say that it is enough to get labeled as evil... but if you commit evil acts (burn the village, rape the horses and ride off on the women, etc), then your evil... labels aren't any kind of excuse.

[The Neoclassic]

If "humanity tends toward no alignment, not even neutral" you can make a case that very roughly 1/3 of the total human population is of Evil alignment- which means the player can't just Smite everything that detects as evil, but has to proceed carefully, using appropriate methods to the situations, rather than "Kill All Evils"

Eberron, and to a lesser extent, Faerun, work more like this. Possibly Greyhawk may do so as well.


Eberron blurs the lines a bit, but it doesn't erase them altogether.

This pretty much describes my approach.

[Myou]

I didn't say that it is enough to get labeled as evil... but if you commit evil acts (burn the village, rape the horses and ride off on the women, etc), then your evil... labels aren't any kind of excuse.

Clearly you have no real idea what the two disorders entail.