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View Full Version : A level 20 Monk, a Malconvoker, and Greater Planar Binding



AirTony7
2009-09-24, 10:34 PM
This is quite a crazy question but here goes. The 8th lvl Malconvoker ability increases the HD for planar binding (as well as the lesser and greater versions) by 2. This means that greater planar binding can now be used to call an outsider with 20 HD. Since the monk's capstone ability means he is now an outsider for the purposes of spells and effects.

Does this mean that you could actually use Greater Planar Binding to bind level 20 monks? (As if monks needed even more problems)

Akal Saris
2009-09-24, 10:44 PM
I'd say yes, if you knew the specific individual you wanted, he resided on a different plane (since native outsiders probably can't be bound), and the DM agreed. You could also bind a level 20 tiefling wizard, for example.

But you can summon a balor - why would you ever want a monk? :smallbiggrin:

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-24, 10:51 PM
To further prove how much monks suck...a caster can SUMMON one...and with the correct wording bind it forever...

taltamir
2009-09-25, 12:27 AM
This is quite a crazy question but here goes. The 8th lvl Malconvoker ability increases the HD for planar binding (as well as the lesser and greater versions) by 2. This means that greater planar binding can now be used to call an outsider with 20 HD. Since the monk's capstone ability means he is now an outsider for the purposes of spells and effects.

Does this mean that you could actually use Greater Planar Binding to bind level 20 monks? (As if monks needed even more problems)

worse than that... a monk of level 20 is an outsider, immune to negative effects of aging, except death, he still dies when his time is up...

Why is that so bad? because outsiders can NOT be resurrected... so as a level 20 ability the monk becomes:
1. Summonable
2. Bindable
3. Immune to resurrection
4. Immune to physical attribute decay from aging.
5. immune to spells that age the character (AFAIK, there are none)

Worse capstone ever!

Atelm
2009-09-25, 12:33 AM
worse than that... a monk of level 20 is an outsider, immune to negative effects of aging, except death, he still dies when his time is up...

Why is that so bad? because outsiders can NOT be resurrected... so as a level 20 ability the monk becomes:
1. Summonable
2. Bindable
3. Immune to resurrection
4. Immune to physical attribute decay from aging.
5. immune to spells that age the character (AFAIK, there are none)

Worse capstone ever!

Actually the Monk's capstone has specific wording which says they can be brought back to life; still doesn't prevent them from being summoned and bound though.

olentu
2009-09-25, 12:39 AM
worse than that... a monk of level 20 is an outsider, immune to negative effects of aging, except death, he still dies when his time is up...

Why is that so bad? because outsiders can NOT be resurrected... so as a level 20 ability the monk becomes:
1. Summonable
2. Bindable
3. Immune to resurrection
4. Immune to physical attribute decay from aging.
5. immune to spells that age the character (AFAIK, there are none)

Worse capstone ever!

Well they are not actually an outsider as I recall. A level twenty monk is just treated as an outsider for spells and magical effects. So while this would normally preclude raising from the dead there is a clause that allows them to be treated as their original type for the purposes of such magic. Though planar binding is a spell and so they would still be vulnerable to that.

Sewblon
2009-09-25, 12:57 AM
I have to try binding a level 20 monk if I ever get a group together.

taltamir
2009-09-25, 12:59 AM
I have to try binding a level 20 monk if I ever get a group together.

totally worth it... especially if there is a monk in your party...

EDIT: actually, why would you summon a crappy monk at 20 HD when you can actually summon something GOOD?

olentu
2009-09-25, 01:10 AM
totally worth it... especially if there is a monk in your party...

EDIT: actually, why would you summon a crappy monk at 20 HD when you can actually summon something GOOD?

To throw your enemies off guard by making them underestimate your intelligence.

taltamir
2009-09-25, 01:24 AM
To throw your enemies off guard by making them underestimate your intelligence.

if you summoned a monk instead of, say, a balor. Then they are correctly estimating your intelligence. ;p

But it would make for a hillarious miscast... "ok, you try to use the summon scroll, and you roll... ouch, miscast... lets see... you summon a monk, oh, that protection from evil isn't gonna work since he is not evil..."

olentu
2009-09-25, 01:32 AM
if you summoned a monk instead of, say, a balor. Then they are correctly estimating your intelligence. ;p

But it would make for a hillarious miscast... "ok, you try to use the summon scroll, and you roll... ouch, miscast... lets see... you summon a monk, oh, that protection from evil isn't gonna work since he is not evil..."

I was thinking more along the lines of doing it once where they will see to deliberately feed them bad information.

SurlySeraph
2009-09-25, 01:33 AM
You know? I think the evidence is piling up that monks are supposed to be monsters, not player characters. They're bad at offense but good at not dying (leading to long, interesting fights), have highly situational abilities (so the DM can always put them somewhere where their abilities help), have a cool-sounding but mechanically ineffective combat style (punching people with swords in the face)... and now, you can summon them just like outsiders.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-25, 01:46 AM
For the record, you don't need to be a Malconvoker to pull this off. Infernal Bargainer is a Feat in Races of Faerūn that does the same thing as Improved Calling. The two stack, too, but I don't think there are any 22 HD Fiends out there for you to access with it (though there are fiends that you could bind with regular or lesser PB instead of the next higher one if you have both).

taltamir
2009-09-25, 02:03 AM
You know? I think the evidence is piling up that monks are supposed to be monsters, not player characters. They're bad at offense but good at not dying (leading to long, interesting fights), have highly situational abilities (so the DM can always put them somewhere where their abilities help), have a cool-sounding but mechanically ineffective combat style (punching people with swords in the face)... and now, you can summon them just like outsiders.

i think you are right... at least a monk does not become immune to lycanthropy, he can get a were<lawful creature> to bite him to suck a little less. (I think werewolfs are CE, while werebears are LG?)

Gnorman
2009-09-25, 02:52 AM
For the record, you don't need to be a Malconvoker to pull this off. Infernal Bargainer is a Feat in Races of Faerūn that does the same thing as Improved Calling. The two stack, too, but I don't think there are any 22 HD Fiends out there for you to access with it (though there are fiends that you could bind with regular or lesser PB instead of the next higher one if you have both).

Juiblex from the FCI has 21 HD. An Aspect of Bel from the FCII has 22, as does the Ethereal Defiler from MMV.

Those are the only canon three I'm aware of. There's probably more lurking somewhere.

Keewatin
2009-09-25, 07:32 AM
i think you are right... at least a monk does not become immune to lycanthropy, he can get a were<lawful creature> to bite him to suck a little less. (I think werewolfs are CE, while werebears are LG?)

Werebear is the only LG lycanthrope but being a super fast arrow deflecting kung fu panda is way awesome!

Indon
2009-09-25, 08:25 AM
worse than that... a monk of level 20 is an outsider, immune to negative effects of aging, except death, he still dies when his time is up...

Why is that so bad? because outsiders can NOT be resurrected... so as a level 20 ability the monk becomes:

Nobody can be ressurected from dying of old age.

I'd watch out about giving the level 20 Monk lycanthropy - it grants HD.

And one more nifty Outsider trick, like the others, for not only monks but tieflings and aasimar - Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) would reincarnate an Outsider as another type of Outsider - so why decide between the party Monk and a Balor, when you can make the party monk into a Balor?

The Mentalist
2009-09-25, 08:36 AM
And one more nifty Outsider trick, like the others, for not only monks but tieflings and aasimar - Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) would reincarnate an Outsider as another type of Outsider - so why decide between the party Monk and a Balor, when you can make the party monk into a Balor?

Outsiders can't be reincarnated. That rather bites.

Zovc
2009-09-25, 08:43 AM
Nobody can be ressurected from dying of old age.

I'd watch out about giving the level 20 Monk lycanthropy - it grants HD.

And one more nifty Outsider trick, like the others, for not only monks but tieflings and aasimar - Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) would reincarnate an Outsider as another type of Outsider - so why decide between the party Monk and a Balor, when you can make the party monk into a Balor?

My friend died and I got him reincarnated as an elf.

Ha.

deuxhero
2009-09-25, 08:46 AM
A capstoned monk loses the ability to be hit by enlarge person, Monks LOSE options at the capstone.

Indon
2009-09-25, 08:47 AM
Outsiders can't be reincarnated. That rather bites.

Native outsiders - such as tieflings and level 20 monks - can.

Mind, with the Tiefling/Aasimar, the trick will only work once because they won't be outsider(native) anymore. With the Monk, however, it'll keep working so long as you let the Monk regain level 20.

The Mentalist
2009-09-25, 08:54 AM
Ahhh... that's a neat trick.

Zovc
2009-09-25, 09:05 AM
What's the biggest Level Adjustment we can give our Monk without giving him Hit Dice?

deuxhero
2009-09-25, 09:09 AM
Half-Dragon Half-Fiend half-ect?

Zovc
2009-09-25, 09:13 AM
Lich turns all his HD to d12's and has a +4 LA, Demilich doesn't seem to adjust either of those.

(I'm restricted to core for the time being, looking up random things I remember to be templates.)

Illiterate Scribe
2009-09-25, 09:13 AM
A level 20 monk, a malconvoker, and a living spell of greater planar binding walk into a bar.

I haven't got much more than that. Any ideas?

JeenLeen
2009-09-25, 09:23 AM
Native outsiders - such as tieflings and level 20 monks - can.

Mind, with the Tiefling/Aasimar, the trick will only work once because they won't be outsider(native) anymore. With the Monk, however, it'll keep working so long as you let the Monk regain level 20.

What would happen if you used, instead of Reincarnate, the 'Revivify' version of Reincarnate from Spell Compedium, which reincarnates them without level loss but must be used within one round?

They are changed into a normal outsider. Would their class feature then maintain their native status? Or is it that it changes them just at the moment, so they would need to go down to level 19 Monk and then up again to 20 to become outsider (native) again?

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-25, 09:30 AM
totally worth it... especially if there is a monk in your party...

EDIT: actually, why would you summon a crappy monk at 20 HD when you can actually summon something GOOD?

Like an Incarnate.

Indon
2009-09-25, 09:35 AM
What would happen if you used, instead of Reincarnate, the 'Revivify' version of Reincarnate from Spell Compedium, which reincarnates them without level loss but must be used within one round?
Their base type would become Outsider, but their Monk class feature would still render them as Outsider (Native) in addition to their original type. If they reincarnate without level loss, then they retain this class feature and could be reincarnated again immediately.

JeenLeen
2009-09-25, 09:37 AM
Like an Incarnate.

Or a level 10 Exemplar (CAdv PrC), if your team needs a bound skillmonkey.

Zovc
2009-09-25, 11:02 AM
All found in Crystal Keep's Templates list--these stood out to me:

Crossbreeds (I think we should stick to only one, personally)
Half-Janni (Sand; Dragon Magazine #313)
Half-Rakshasa (Dragon Magazine #313)
Half-Fey (Fiend Folio?)
Half-Nymph (Dragon Magazine #313)
Half-Satyr (Dragon Magazine #313)
Half-Doppelganger (Dragon Magazine #313)
Half-Minotaur (Dragon Magazine #313)
Half-Ogre (Dragon Magazine #313)
Half-Troll (Fiend Folio)
Fetch ("Half-Ghost) (Dragon Magazine #313)
Ghul ("Half-Ghoul") (Dragon Magazine #313)
Half-Vampire (Libris Mortis)
Katane ("Half-Vampire) (Dragon Magazine #313)

Denizens (Again, should probably have only one of these)
Ice/Magma/Ooze Elemental Creature (Dragon Magazine #347)(slight differences between the three, but do mostly the same thing)
Smoke Elemental Creature (Dragon Magazine #347) (Natural Attack is significantly different from the other three)
Entropic Creature (Planar Handbook?)*
Radiant Creature (Dragon Magazine #321)*
Shadow Creature (Manual of the Planes)
Vivacious Creature (Planar Handbook?)*
Anarchic "Unfinished" Creature (Planar Handbook?) ^ (Always Chaotic)
Axiomatic "Perfect" Creature (Planar Handbook?) ^ (Always Lawful)
Celestial Creature (Monster Manual) @ (Always Good)
Fiendish Creature (Monster Manual) @ (Always Evil)
Pseudonatural (Manual of the Planes; Complete Arcane?) (Makes creature an outsider)
*Makes you an outsider (Extraplanar/Native/Incorporeal Augmented [Type]).
^Adds Extraplanar type to nonanimals and nonvermin.
@Adds Outsider type to nonanimals and nonvermin.

I've got some work to do, but feel free to piece these together to make an ubermonk--or possibly any class, seeing as you can make any creature an outsider, it turns out. :3

Fluffles
2009-09-25, 11:07 AM
Half-Ogre is also in Races of Destiny. Stick on half-Dragon and you don't need to worry about putting points into Str. (Total of +5 La though, but you gain a +14 to str, wings, +8 NA, a breath weapon, immunity to one type of energy, and other goodies :smallsmile:)

Zovc
2009-09-25, 12:02 PM
Half-Ogre is also in Races of Destiny. Stick on half-Dragon and you don't need to worry about putting points into Str. (Total of +5 La though, but you gain a +14 to str, wings, +8 NA, a breath weapon, immunity to one type of energy, and other goodies :smallsmile:)

You can't use something with HD (like Half-Dragon) if you want to be a level 20 monk with 20 HD.

woodenbandman
2009-09-25, 12:05 PM
Can a neraph malconvoker travel to a plane on which he is a non-native outsider and planar bind himself?

Fluffles
2009-09-25, 12:28 PM
You can't use something with HD (like Half-Dragon) if you want to be a level 20 monk with 20 HD.

What? Half-Dragon doesn't have any HD at all.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Half-Dragon

Tavar
2009-09-25, 12:45 PM
I think he meant LA, which both have.

Zovc
2009-09-25, 12:58 PM
What? Half-Dragon doesn't have any HD at all.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Half-Dragon

You're right, sorry.

I didn't mean LA's. I meant specifically HD.

Being Undead seems to have a lot of options (Templates that only apply to Undead).

Fluffles
2009-09-25, 01:17 PM
Most undead also have no Int score :P But the things you can do with the evolved template... heh heh heh...

taltamir
2009-09-25, 03:20 PM
Their base type would become Outsider, but their Monk class feature would still render them as Outsider (Native) in addition to their original type. If they reincarnate without level loss, then they retain this class feature and could be reincarnated again immediately.


Quoth the SRD: Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm)

So, a balor that attains level 20th monk, will be able to be brought back like his "previous creature type", except balor is the previous creature type, and it cannot be brought back from the dead.

However, I don't think you can even reincarnate into a balor. Maybe as another native outsider.

Also, I know that that nobody can be brought back from natural death from aging, I was referring, incorrectly, to being brought back from the dead for being killed, and just mentioned aging immunity doesn't make you immortal as an aside.

Indon
2009-09-25, 03:56 PM
So, a balor that attains level 20th monk, will be able to be brought back like his "previous creature type", except balor is the previous creature type, and it cannot be brought back from the dead.
Hmm, so only native outsider races could use that. Pity.


However, I don't think you can even reincarnate into a balor. Maybe as another native outsider.
It'd be largely the call of your DM, since only the humanoid reincarnation table is presented. DM's must make tables for any other creature types.

Zovc
2009-09-25, 04:15 PM
Most undead also have no Int score :P But the things you can do with the evolved template... heh heh heh...

Lich does (It actually gives you a bonus to Intelligence). Along with making all those HD's of yours 12's... can a Monk make a Phylactery?

Indon
2009-09-25, 04:18 PM
Lich does (It actually gives you a bonus to Intelligence). Along with making all those HD's of yours 12's... can a Monk make a Phylactery?

No, but using a complicated xanatos roulette scheme he could manipulate a spellcaster into turning him into a lich, then immediately and ingeniously eliminating the spellcaster.

At least, I think. Never much read about the procedure, except that it involves unspeakable evil, etc, etc.

tyckspoon
2009-09-25, 04:27 PM
No, but using a complicated xanatos roulette scheme he could manipulate a spellcaster into turning him into a lich, then immediately and ingeniously eliminating the spellcaster.

At least, I think. Never much read about the procedure, except that it involves unspeakable evil, etc, etc.

Only by homerule/fiat. The standard lichifying rules require you to cast spells and have a caster level of at least 11. Somebody else may be able to provide the Craft Wondrous Item feat, but you have to do the spell-work yourself.

If you're just looking to be undead and find an excuse to abuse the Evolved template, just get yourself made a Necropolitan. Undead, reasonably priced, no LA. Be a perfected millenia-old Evolved Undead Outsider Monk. Share the secrets of enlightenment with people who survive making it to your cave (or kill them and take their stuff.)

Zovc
2009-09-25, 04:34 PM
If you're just looking to be undead and find an excuse to abuse the Evolved template, just get yourself made a Necropolitan. Undead, reasonably priced, no LA. Be a perfected millenia-old Evolved Undead Outsider Monk. Share the secrets of enlightenment with people who survive making it to your cave (or kill them and take their stuff.)

I'm just trying to "reasonably" stack as many templates on a monk with 20HD so that he can be bound as an outsider and be a munchkin.

taltamir
2009-09-25, 07:11 PM
say... are there 1HD outsiders with a +0 LA? because the first HD is replaced with the PC class. So why summon a level 20 monk or a balor... when you can summon and bind a level 20 wizard (of an outsider race) ;p

KellKheraptis
2009-09-25, 07:23 PM
Necropolitan opens up spellstitching...maybe then see if he can become a lich?

Eldariel
2009-09-25, 07:28 PM
say... are there 1HD outsiders with a +0 LA? because the first HD is replaced with the PC class. So why summon a level 20 monk or a balor... when you can summon and bind a level 20 wizard (of an outsider race) ;p

I thought Binding had stipulations against specific individuals. But yeah, Neraphim, for example, are an LA&HD +0 Outsider race.

deuxhero
2009-09-25, 07:33 PM
There are Tiefling/their counterparts I can't spell/Gensei with bought of LA (mentioned alreddy). I think the lesser versions can also be hit by outsider effecting spellls such as binding.

taltamir
2009-09-25, 07:40 PM
I thought Binding had stipulations against specific individuals. But yeah, Neraphim, for example, are an LA&HD +0 Outsider race.

well, not a specific individual, a specific class :).
Summon a level 20 neraphim wizard :).

Dingle
2009-09-26, 05:17 PM
if native outsiders can be bound, I think that lesser air and fire gensai had an int bonus, making them good and therefore likely wizards.

Salt_Crow
2009-09-26, 06:13 PM
Let's not forget Planar Shepherds. 15th level Planar Shepherds at level 13? Yes please.

Since PS's capstone ability specifically states that one becomes a native of the chosen plane (not the material plane), he/she'd gain Extraplanar template in the material plane. This would alleviate many problems associated with planar binding native outsiders.