When has Haley...

[thermitetermite]

...given roy reason to question her commitment to the team?

TT

[Herald Alberich]

I was wondering that too. I posted this speculation in the strip thread:


And finally, a question: What reasons does Roy have to question Haley's commitment, after all she went through to get him raised? I suppose she may be feeling guilty about swindling the team back in Dorukan's dungeon and afterward (good for her, it's about time), but Roy wouldn't hold it against her after all that time. On the other hand, it's in character for her to believe he would.

Edit: She also very sensibly threatened to leave when Miko was dragging them to Azure City. But ever since they found out just how high the stakes were (fate of the multiverse and all), she's been as dedicated to the quest as he has.

She also pointed out to him during the dirt farmer thing that she can be altruistic when it's not just Roy's desires (blood oath, starmetal, bumping uglies with the paladin) at stake. Again, the fate of existence is a bit bigger than that.

[Shale]

Even with that, though, the treasure was always secondary for Roy. If she's on board to kill Xykon at all costs - and she definitely has been, with more than a few chances to cut and run that she didn't take - would he really care if she weasels her way into an extra-large share of the spoils?

[Tijne]

Haley's a rogue.

'Nuf said.

[Elan's Modron]

Personally I think Haley's worry about Roy is more revealing of H's worldview (= lots of paranoia and also low self-esteem) than it is about anything Roy actually would or does think nowadays...

...on the OTHER HAND, way back in strip #14 we do have one glimpse of Roy's inner thoughts on the subject-
Certainly there's been a lot of water under the bridge since then-
but- in-comic at least (and therefore canon) - at least at one point Roy *didn't* trust Haley 100%...

[Herald Alberich]

Haley's a rogue.

'Nuf said.

And that used to be reason enough (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0014.html) for Roy. But he knows her much better now and she went to great lengths to get him raised, almost getting killed herself in the process.

Every single reason I can think of for Haley to believe Roy doesn't trust her requires her to think he's much dumber or more small-minded than he is.

[Elan's Modron]

Every single reason I can think of for Haley to believe Roy doesn't trust her requires her to think he's much dumber or more small-minded than he is.


Or, that she's just that warped by [things like] Daddy Ian's school of parenting!

[Elan's Modron]

^^ That said, I do think that Haley's distrust of others is more than a little overstated, at this point in time. I only read the Cryptogramese arc retroactively (=not when it first came out) - and/but it felt rather belabored.

[Haven]

It's probably just more of Haley's chronic self-doubt at work. Much like her tendency to keep other people out: even if she's improved a lot in that regard, it's still a part of her.

So even if Roy does trust her, she's probably not entirely ready to believe it.

[Herald Alberich]

The above few posters are probably right, and if Haley had said "I know Roy doesn't trust me enough to believe I'll stick with him right now", I'd leave it at that. But she thinks there are specific actions she's done in the past to give Roy that impression, and I'm trying to figure out which of them make the most sense. I'm probably just overthinking it.

[Starscream]

Maybe it's a Law vs Chaos thing. Although OotS has never used alignments to shackle a character's personality, or define who does and doesn't get along, it might still be a source of mistrust between them.

Roy is lawful (if not overtly so, as pointed out by the Astral Deva). He gets along very well with the other lawful member of the team, Durkon, because when they first met he was impressed with his commitment to their adventuring group, even though they treated him like dirt. The concept of honor and trust is very central to his personality.

On the other hand, he is not particularly fond of dealing with the other two chaotic members of the team, Elan and Belkar. In fact, they are pretty much the bane of his existence. They tend to do whatever suits them, without much thought for team dynamics. As their leader/babysitter, this is an unending source of stress for Roy.

Maybe he lumps Haley in with them because she also has shown a severe tendency for thinking of herself first and the team second.

Or at least she thinks he does. She once said (of herself and her fellow chaotic Order members) "The three of us are so consistently and staggeringly irresponsible that it's utterly unreasonable to expect us to have been paying any attention in the first place."

But Roy is a reasonable man, and the fact that she risked her neck to have him resurrected surely means a lot to him. But distrusting people is Haley's nature, and she probably expects others to treat her the same way she treats them. Now that they are back together, maybe she will realize just how much faith Roy has in her, and she will learn to return that faith.

Or maybe it's just funnier when she keeps secrets. Gotta keep the fans dreading that the crypto-speak will rear its ugly head again!:smallbiggrin:

[Morquard]

I don't think Roy doubts her, not at this time anymore.

I mean sure he joked with her about sabotaging the mission to win 10g in #666, but that was clearly a joke.

Roy has seen how dedicated she was while he was dead, she could have done the easy thing and say "screw it, screw roy's corpse, I'm robbing this place blind and by myself a kingdom", but she didn't.

However I believe Haley still has doubts about herself, and the issues with trusting othes plays into it too.
She thinks Roy would believe she abandons the quest now that she has what she originally joined up for (enough cash to free her dad). Maybe because she originally (aka before Azure city) would have really done it and knows it. Or maybe because she would think that about others if she ever learned.

[factotum]

I got the impression that when she says she's given Roy enough reason to doubt her commitment that it's been through what she SAYS, not what she does. If we need actions to reinforce it, well, going into a state of aphasia due to keeping too many secrets and/or losing all your loot doesn't give a great deal of confidence in what your priorities are!

[Kaytara]

I think the part about Roy not trusting her was a rationalisation on her part. After all, she admitted that Elan was right that it's not something she'd like the sound of when phrased out loud, and not wanting to burden Roy with unneeded worries (IF that were the case) is a perfectly sensible reason and nothing to be ashamed of. Then the comic dives into her rogue's mindset and paranoia about people.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Roy thing is just a (sub?)conscious cover on her part and she's really just loath to open up to him like that, as it was emphasized in the comic.

[Mugen Nightgale]

Haley has trust issues that also implies that she has a hard time accepting other people's beliefs. Ergo she thinks Roy doesn't trust her. Or even likes her as a companion, we've seen this in the whole Elan and Haley getting together arc.

It's just the self-loathing talking.

[Larkspur]

It is a rather distracting side-quest. I interpreted her comment as "I don't want to give Roy something else to worry about" rather than "If I confess Roy will never trust me again!" Everyone except Belkar is pretty firmly committed to beating Xykon, but the quest has been derailed by people's personal problems often enough in the past (see V's most recent arc, anything with the Linear Guild, Durkon/Hilgya, Miko) that Roy could have legitimate concerns. It's not so much a matter of questioning Haley's loyalty as worrying that they'll have to spend half a book rescuing Ian instead of looking for the Gate, because Chekhov's Subplots never get successfully put off until after the main quest is over.

[Elan's Modron]

Very briefly off-topic:
And now, Kaytara, it is I who must compliment you on your fine new avatar. My only complaint is: I'd like to see SplicedKyrie holding a banana-nut muffin that pulsated with black necromantic power...

[thermitetermite]

Thanks for th replies all.

I agree that it is probably all in Haley's own low view of herself. It just seemed kinda odd to read it after seeing Haley deal with her Self Loathing personification.

If I had to rank who Roy trusts the most it would be:

1. Durkon
2. Haley
3. Vaarsuvius
4. Celia
5. His Bag of Many Tricks
6. The flumps ( they've always been there for him except for that one time...)
|
|
|
98. William Shatner
99. Belkar
100. Elan

TT

[SoC175]

Well, the reason for Haley's promotion to second in command of the OotS in OotPCs was to give her less incentive to just rob all teammates and vanish

[Dallas-Dakota]

Also, she's build up this thing with Elan, this relationship. Something she's never done before, she is trying(succesfully) to be close with somebody. She's not going to want to give that up. That counts pretty much as loyalty to Elan.

Who in turn, is loyal to Roy.(as party leader and such)


Also I think that these days, Roy would be more liable to trust Elan, with his +1 competence from Dashing Swordsman and Haley's effect on Elan.
And Elan also is good while Belkar is not, Belkar doesn't really care about their goal while Elan does(for plot! And plot-kin!:smalltongue:)

[Steven the Lich]

Thanks for th replies all.

I agree that it is probably all in Haley's own low view of herself. It just seemed kinda odd to read it after seeing Haley deal with her Self Loathing personification.

If I had to rank who Roy trusts the most it would be:

1. Durkon
2. Haley
3. Vaarsuvius
4. Celia
5. His Bag of Many Tricks
6. The flumps ( they've always been there for him except for that one time...)
|
|
|
98. William Shatner
99. Belkar
100. Elan

TT

You really think Roy trusts Belkar more than Elan?
:smallconfused:

[Acero]

i think its more self doubt from Haley then Roy's mistrust

[Dark Faun]

It might also be a relapse of her belief that Roy died because she wasn't prepared enough to battle Xykon (#444 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html)).

[Zolkabro]

You really think Roy trusts Belkar more than Elan?
:smallconfused:

I agree. I say,
98: Elan
99:William Shatner
100: Rich Burlew
∞:Belkar

[ref]

Very briefly off-topic:
And now, Kaytara, it is I who must compliment you on your fine new avatar. My only complaint is: I'd like to see SplicedKyrie holding a banana-nut muffin that pulsated with black necromantic power...

Also, her post is just the right length so that the lizard-V in her sig is looking directly at her avatar, giving the shocked eyes a new meaning.

[Kaytara]

Very briefly off-topic:
And now, Kaytara, it is I who must compliment you on your fine new avatar. My only complaint is: I'd like to see SplicedKyrie holding a banana-nut muffin that pulsated with black necromantic power...

Thanks. :D Maybe I'll pass your idea along to Zanaril... XD

ref: You're right, that IS creepy.

Giantitp Forums: Creating stories with nothing but post format! >D

[Starscream]

100: Rich Burlew

Good point. The man's already killed him once. I'd keep an eye out.

[Kaytara]

I think Roy does trust Belkar more than Elan in a certain way - the former is good combat backup while the latter is not. Now that Belkar is less impulsive and unpredictable, I mean.


Very briefly off-topic:
And now, Kaytara, it is I who must compliment you on your fine new avatar. My only complaint is: I'd like to see SplicedKyrie holding a banana-nut muffin that pulsated with black necromantic power...

The Unholy Zanaril has answered your prayers: :D


That is too good an idea to pass up.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii21/Zanaril/OOTSart/evilmuffin.png

It's probably not a good idea to eat it.

[DBJack]

You really think Roy trusts Belkar more than Elan?
:smallconfused:



I think Roy trusts Bekar at least a little more than Elan. Roy can depend upon Belkar to do something fairly predictable. Belkar is a man of simple wants. Elan is completely unpredictable. Sometimes Roy can depend on Elan to do something, a lot of times he can't. But Roy can get Belkar to do a lot of things effectively.

[hamishspence]

Might depend on how much time has gone by.

Early on: "Why Roy is Always Tired" it appeared that he believed it was plausible that Haley would loot the party and run off, and Haley is alongside Belkar and Elan in reasons to keep watch himself.

Since then though, Elan has tended to continue to be problematic, whereas Haley has been rather more useful (Elan's moment of most competence was probably the escape from Cliffport and capture of Nale)

Roy knows Belkar has continued to cause problems even without the Mark, and now he's lost it. On the other hand, according to Haley, he's behaving unusually well at the moment.

My guess is, that Roy trusts Belkar to be more reliable in a combat situation, but Elan to be less of a liability in interaction with strangers.

Other members of the order may have a slightly different view.

[Elan's Modron]

@Kaytara & Zanaril-
WOOT!!!!!!!

It's like Familicide-in-a-muffin!

[Elan's Modron]

In re-reading old story arcs- there is the time Haley duped the other OotSers into accepting her worthless pieces of rocks taken from Xykon's throne room, when dividing up the party spoils.

Though I agree that was a long time ago, story-wise- and also was fairly typical naughty rogue behavior...i.e., it's 'immoral' almost to the exact extent that Dennis the Menace is menacing...

[thermitetermite]

And they never figured it out....

TT

[Elan's Modron]

And they never figured it out....

TT

Though I suppose that could have happened off-panel...