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taltamir
2009-09-25, 01:25 AM
I hear references to the "nightstick" here and there, as supposedly something awesome. What is it?

arguskos
2009-09-25, 01:26 AM
It's an item that gives you 4 extra turn attempts, and you can have multiples. They are often used alongside Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell to persist massive numbers of spells.

Kylarra
2009-09-25, 01:27 AM
A rod that gives you 4 extra turn undead uses/day.
It's in the book of bad latin iirc

edit: lol ninja

taltamir
2009-09-25, 01:28 AM
A rod that gives you 4 extra turn undead uses/day.
It's in the book of bad latin iirc

edit: lol ninja

book of bad latin?

tyckspoon
2009-09-25, 01:29 AM
As mentioned, it's a stackable magic item that gives extra Turn Undead uses. The reason it's referred to as a power item is that it functions as a battery for Divine Meta Magic, which lets you pay a metamagic's adjustment costs in Turn Undead uses instead of spell levels. Typically used for Persistant Spell, to create a Cleric that has all those tasty Personal buffs up all day for a cost of one spell slot (plus a handful of feats and a chunk of cash, but those are sunk costs if you're attempting this build anyway.)

Book of Bad Latin= Libris Mortis, the Undead sourcebook. Other sourcebooks you may see referenced by something other than actual name are It's Hot Outside, It's Cold Outside, It's Wet Outside, and It's Not Outside, which are the environmental series (Sandstorm, Frostburn, Stormwrack, and either Cityscape or Dungeonscape, respectively, with Cityscape being meant when the set was first coined.)

Kylarra
2009-09-25, 01:30 AM
book of bad latin?
Libris Mortis

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-09-25, 01:30 AM
book of bad latin?

Libris Mortus. :smallbiggrin:
Ninja-tastic.

arguskos
2009-09-25, 01:32 AM
A-HA! I managed to ninja an entire thread! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Wait... content... yeah. Uh, Nightsticks are really good? As in, overpoweringly good usually.

Thatguyoverther
2009-09-25, 01:33 AM
It's one of these things
http://www.finestedge.com/images/EI-1707_T-Type_Wooden_Night_Stick.jpg

taltamir
2009-09-25, 01:33 AM
awesome... so DMM means... divine metamagic.
Persistant... increases duration to all day right?

There is a feat that lets you use up turn attempts instead of increasing spell levels to do metamagic. And you can just buy as many nightsticks as you need?


It's one of these things
http://www.finestedge.com/images/EI-1707_T-Type_Wooden_Night_Stick.jpg


I don't say this often or lightly, but: LOL >.<

arguskos
2009-09-25, 01:34 AM
You take DMM (Persistent Spell) and then use 7 turn attempts to Persist anything as you cast it, like, say, Divine Might. That's a minor example, btw.

tyckspoon
2009-09-25, 01:39 AM
awesome... so DMM means... divine metamagic.
Persistant... increases duration to all day right?

There is a feat that lets you use up turn attempts instead of increasing spell levels to do metamagic. And you can just buy as many nightsticks as you need?


Right. There are other valid of Nightsticks- you can use them to power other Divine feats or (Domain) Devotion feats, for example- but Divine Metamagic is far and away both the most powerful use and the one that needs the most Nightsticks to power it. Your natural Turn attempts plus maybe two Nightsticks will get you more Turn uses than you need for just about anything else.

Khanderas
2009-09-25, 04:34 AM
In super simple terms.

Player: The spell X is awsome. I wish it could last all day.
GM: You can but it costs you 7 turn attempts.
Player: I reach into my backpack and take out two nightsticks. Done.
GM: :smallannoyed: Fine you are a better fighter then the Fighter for the rest of the day. Plus casting.

Nohwl
2009-09-25, 08:05 AM
awesome... so DMM means... divine metamagic.
Persistant... increases duration to all day right?

There is a feat that lets you use up turn attempts instead of increasing spell levels to do metamagic. And you can just buy as many nightsticks as you need?



I don't say this often or lightly, but: LOL >.<

they are really really cheap too.

Telonius
2009-09-25, 08:32 AM
It's one of these things
http://www.finestedge.com/images/EI-1707_T-Type_Wooden_Night_Stick.jpg


Actually that's what the DM will use if you try to use more than one of them.

Blackfang108
2009-09-25, 08:33 AM
GM: :smallannoyed: Fine you are a better fighter then the Fighter for the rest of the day. Plus casting.

Wait, this requires DMM?

sonofzeal
2009-09-25, 08:43 AM
Other sourcebooks you may see referenced by something other than actual name are It's Hot Outside, It's Cold Outside, It's Wet Outside, and It's Not Outside, which are the environmental series (Sandstorm, Frostburn, Stormwrack, and either Cityscape or Dungeonscape, respectively, with Cityscape being meant when the set was first coined.)
Also Savage Cheeses Species.

Personally, I've also been referring to Complete Champion as Complete Cheese. I also have my entire extended gaming group referring to BoEF as "Book of Cuddly Fluffy Bunnies", after an extended in-joke with my gf of the time.

sonofzeal
2009-09-25, 08:47 AM
Wait, this requires DMM?
It's a heck of a lot easier. Like, it actually becomes effective. I mean, a Cleric can outfight a Fighter otherwise, if it's a poorly made Fighter who's not Shocktroopering or Lockdowning, but the Cleric will usually require multiple rounds of buffs. And the problem with multiple rounds of buffs is that combat usually lasts maybe 4 rounds total. The only other way to be effective is via heavy use of Quickening to shorten those buff rounds, but that takes its own effort, and Rods of Quicken are better off in the hands of the party wizard anyway.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-25, 09:00 AM
It's one of these things
http://www.finestedge.com/images/EI-1707_T-Type_Wooden_Night_Stick.jpg


Also known as a tonfa.

Tetsubo 57
2009-09-25, 09:08 AM
Also known as a tonfa.

You made me so proud man.

*sniff*

I *knew* someone would point out that it was a tonfa and not techically a nightstick. I love nerds.

Person_Man
2009-09-25, 09:17 AM
Bah! DMM is sooo 2004. Besides, a Cleric has dozens of spells, plus wands and scrolls. You don't need DMM. Truly abusive builds will load up on Domain feats (awesome powers fueled by Turn Undead) and Ruby Knight Vindicator (for extra Swift Actions via Turn Undead uses), ToB Boosts (Swift Actions), and maybe a Psicrown of the Evader (convert Swift Actions into Move Actions). Why bother with an all day buff when you can kill everyone in one or two turns?

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-25, 09:31 AM
You made me so proud man.

*sniff*

I *knew* someone would point out that it was a tonfa and not techically a nightstick. I love nerds.

Yeah. Nightsticks (actual ones) are just rods. Some of them are retractable. Most of them are dense plastic too.

Keld Denar
2009-09-25, 09:33 AM
lol....

Cleric + RKV + Ordained Champion + Nightsticks - Sage recommendation on Divine Impetus = lol30FlameStrikesinoneround.

OC allows you to spontaneously convert any prepared spell to a War domain spell, and also autoquickens all War domain spells. RKV gives you extra swift actions per TU attempt used. Flame Strike is a 5th level War domain spell. Converting all of your 5th+ level spell slots into swift action Flame Strikes in a single round is lol.

There is no overkill. There is only "open Flame Strike!" and "I need to reload!".

JonestheSpy
2009-09-25, 12:52 PM
In super simple terms.

Player: The spell X is awsome. I wish it could last all day.
GM: You can but it costs you 7 turn attempts.
Player: I reach into my backpack and take out two nightsticks. Done.
GM: :smallannoyed: Fine you are a better fighter then the Fighter for the rest of the day. Plus casting.

Here's a much better idea:

Player: The spell X is awsome. I wish it could last all day.
GM: It's called Game Balance.
Player: But I can just spend turn attempts and then use these magic items I bought at WalMag-
GM: Sorry, no splatbook cheese in this campaign.:smallbiggrin:
Player: But...
GM: :smallcool:

Kyeudo
2009-09-25, 12:57 PM
lol....

Cleric + RKV + Ordained Champion + Nightsticks - Sage recommendation on Divine Impetus = lol30FlameStrikesinoneround.

OC allows you to spontaneously convert any prepared spell to a War domain spell, and also autoquickens all War domain spells. RKV gives you extra swift actions per TU attempt used. Flame Strike is a 5th level War domain spell. Converting all of your 5th+ level spell slots into swift action Flame Strikes in a single round is lol.

There is no overkill. There is only "open Flame Strike!" and "I need to reload!".

That's nothing. I've seen a Char Op build that used RKV and 30 nightsticks to cross the continental US in a single turn, throwing a guy the whole way for ridiculous damage.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-25, 01:09 PM
Here's a much better idea:

Player: The spell X is awsome. I wish it could last all day.
GM: It's called Game Balance.
Player: But I can just spend turn attempts and then use these magic items I bought at WalMag-
GM: Sorry, no splatbook cheese in this campaign.:smallbiggrin:
Player: But...
GM: :smallcool:

Extra Turning>DM.

Fluffles
2009-09-25, 01:20 PM
In one game I'm that question, "How many nightsticks can I stack?" was asked. The answer? "How many can I fit in your ass?"

Awesome DM. We were allowed to use any cheese we wanted, but were warned that anything we did was fair game for him to use. We each died around 10 times each. but hell, that's what happens when you are made to fight in a gladiator-style arena match, with no breaks...



Which we rather deserved, we did try to assassinate their Emporer after all :smallbiggrin:

BRC
2009-09-25, 01:21 PM
In one game I'm that question, "How many nightsticks can I stack?" was asked. The answer? "How many can I fit in your ass?"

Awesome DM. We were allowed to use any cheese we wanted, but were warned that anything we did was fair game for him to use. We each died around 10 times each. but hell, that's what happens when you are made to fight in a gladiator-style arena match, with no breaks...



Which we rather deserved, we did try to assassinate their Emporer after all :smallbiggrin:
Ah yes. The Rule of Reciprocal Cheese is the best way to handle Munchkinery.

Frosty
2009-09-25, 01:29 PM
That's nothing. I've seen a Char Op build that used RKV and 30 nightsticks to cross the continental US in a single turn, throwing a guy the whole way for ridiculous damage.

Does this involve levels of swordsage, RKV, the Travel Devotion feat, and Tornado Throw maneuver?

Prime32
2009-09-25, 01:37 PM
Does this involve levels of swordsage, RKV, the Travel Devotion feat, and Tornado Throw maneuver?It's "Chuck", which doesn't work any more since the footsteps of the divine spell (grants a speed bonus for a while, can be discharged to grant a larger speed bonus based on remaining duration for 1 round) was errata'd.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-25, 01:45 PM
It's "Chuck", which doesn't work any more since the footsteps of the divine spell (grants a speed bonus for a while, can be discharged to grant a larger speed bonus based on remaining duration for 1 round) was errata'd.

It still works, just not as powerful as it used to be. He can still Extend the effect, and no longer needs Persist (which opens up more Turning). It just doesn't go cross-country. Cross-city? Maybe.

t_catt11
2009-09-25, 01:48 PM
Here's a much better idea:

Player: The spell X is awsome. I wish it could last all day.
GM: It's called Game Balance.
Player: But I can just spend turn attempts and then use these magic items I bought at WalMag-
GM: Sorry, no splatbook cheese in this campaign.:smallbiggrin:
Player: But...
GM: :smallcool:


And the crowd of sensible people goes wild!

All the optimization threads kill me. My campaign, my right to tell you to keep your cheese at home.

taltamir
2009-09-25, 03:12 PM
Ah yes. The Rule of Reciprocal Cheese is the best way to handle Munchkinery.

i disagree
player 1 uses super cheese
DM reciprocates
players 2-4 are now useless unless they cheese out...
Player 4 cheesed too much, now overpowered
DM reciprocates
rinse and repeat.

it is much better to simply ban cheese and follow common sense or the game will collapse.

Yora
2009-09-25, 03:23 PM
If I WOULD allow divine metamagic, which I don't, I would require it to use the clerics own turn undead uses. It would not work with items that would fuel any additional turn undead uses a cleric might try.
Still alows you to use DMM 4 times per day though.

tyckspoon
2009-09-25, 03:36 PM
Still alows you to use DMM 4 times per day though.

It'd let you use it once, maybe twice. DMM costs Turn uses equal to the adjustment of the metamagic+1, so a simple Extend takes 2, Empower takes 3, Quicken takes 5.. with that restriction, I'm not sure it'd be worth bothering with. The Sudden metamagic feats would do the same thing with lower requirements (on most of them. Sudden Quicken has absurd prereqs.)

'tho presumably Extra Turning would still provide usable Turn Undead attempts, which is how people who can't get/don't want to pay for piles of Nightsticks fund DMM anyway.

taltamir
2009-09-25, 03:41 PM
just forget about the turn undead requirement and say that each DMM works once per day per feat. Still overpowered

Tokiko Mima
2009-09-25, 05:09 PM
If only DMM worked with Innate Spell, what fun we could have... :smallbiggrin:

Haarkla
2009-09-26, 03:24 PM
I hear references to the "nightstick" here and there, as supposedly something awesome. What is it?
You'll learn when you get a bit older. It is awesome.

sofawall
2009-09-26, 03:42 PM
Here's a much better idea:

Player: The spell X is awsome. I wish it could last all day.
GM: It's called Game Balance.
Player: But I can just spend turn attempts and then use these magic items I bought at WalMag-
GM: Sorry, no splatbook cheese in this campaign.:smallbiggrin:
Player: But...
GM: :smallcool:

Define Splatbook cheese. Are you saying using splatbooks is cheesy?

JonestheSpy
2009-09-26, 04:10 PM
Define Splatbook cheese. Are you saying using splatbooks is cheesy?

Rules that let a player break the game as easily as the cliched-at-this-point Nightstick+DMM combo are the very definition of cheesey. Using stuff from non-core books increases the liklihood of such nonsense, but is by no means automatic - there's lots of things I like from Frostburn, Complete Adventurer, etc.

Myself, I would never let players go for the "trading turn undead attempts for metamagic" route at all, unless it was a campaign where undead were a common and formidable treat, and it was actually a real sacrifice to not have the ability to turn them.

olentu
2009-09-26, 04:20 PM
I would think it more sensible to just say cheese rather then having to split things up into splatbook cheese and core cheese. It saves having to say an extra word and they can both break the game. Also it may bypass an argument about that passage in complete psionic depending on what exactly it says (as I can not remember the exact words at the moment).

Philistine
2009-09-26, 04:39 PM
Rules that let a player break the game as easily as the cliched-at-this-point Nightstick+DMM combo are the very definition of cheesey. Using stuff from non-core books increases the liklihood of such nonsense, but is by no means automatic - there's lots of things I like from Frostburn, Complete Adventurer, etc.

Myself, I would never let players go for the "trading turn undead attempts for metamagic" route at all, unless it was a campaign where undead were a common and formidable treat, and it was actually a real sacrifice to not have the ability to turn them.
Except that if you're not seeing significant numbers of undead in your campaign, then Turning isn't useful for anything at all. And even if you are seeing lots of undead, the ability doesn't scale well: high-CR undead usually have enough HD and/or Turn Resistance that attempting to Turn them is futile anyway. Even moreso if the character making the attempt is a Paladin, as their Turning ability starts out too weak to affect near-CR monsters and then falls farther behind from there.

DMM exists to give Turn Undead some utility when it would otherwise be useless - in other words, for the exact situation in which you propose to ban it. What's more, it's only really a problem when combined with both Persistent Spell and inexpensive Nightsticks; limiting either of those, or both, should suffice to rein in the cheese while still letting the players get some use out of their class feature.

taltamir
2009-09-27, 01:02 AM
turning is extremely useful, maybe not for players facing level appropriate undead mind you... but say that there is a minor infestation of minor undeads, skeletons and zombies...

You can have neophite clerics (aka, level 1 or below) wipe them out while a taskforce for heavy hitters (high level cleric, wizard, warrior, etc) go after their master and creator and kill it the traditional way.

Kylarra
2009-09-27, 01:12 AM
turning is extremely useful, maybe not for players facing level appropriate undead mind you... but say that there is a minor infestation of minor undeads, skeletons and zombies...

You can have neophite clerics (aka, level 1 or below) wipe them out while a taskforce for heavy hitters (high level cleric, wizard, warrior, etc) go after their master and creator and kill it the traditional way.Saying turning is "extremely useful" in niche situation that bears very little threat in the first place, is kind of defeating your own point. Similarly I could say "great cleave is extremely useful, not against level appropriate enemies, but say you're fighting a horde of minions..."

sonofzeal
2009-09-27, 01:12 AM
Except that if you're not seeing significant numbers of undead in your campaign, then Turning isn't useful for anything at all. And even if you are seeing lots of undead, the ability doesn't scale well: high-CR undead usually have enough HD and/or Turn Resistance that attempting to Turn them is futile anyway. Even moreso if the character making the attempt is a Paladin, as their Turning ability starts out too weak to affect near-CR monsters and then falls farther behind from there.

DMM exists to give Turn Undead some utility when it would otherwise be useless - in other words, for the exact situation in which you propose to ban it. What's more, it's only really a problem when combined with both Persistent Spell and inexpensive Nightsticks; limiting either of those, or both, should suffice to rein in the cheese while still letting the players get some use out of their class feature.
Who said every class feature has to be powerful? Barbarians get Trap Sense; are you proposing that campaigns with few traps should allow them to use those bonuses on other things?

Clerics have an added tool they can use against undead. It's not always the best one to use, and it's not really a gamechanger, but it is an advantage (especially when facing multiple weaker ones). Why does that need to be bigger than it is?

taltamir
2009-09-27, 01:16 AM
Saying turning is "extremely useful" in niche situation that bears very little threat in the first place, is kind of defeating your own point. Similarly I could say "great cleave is extremely useful, not against level appropriate enemies, but say you're fighting a horde of minions..."

i was saying from an RP perspective... its not something an adventurer will do, but helps shape the world :)
The extremely useful was a bit sarcastic.

tyckspoon
2009-09-27, 09:24 AM
Who said every class feature has to be powerful? Barbarians get Trap Sense; are you proposing that campaigns with few traps should allow them to use those bonuses on other things?


Considering the number of alternate class features for both rogues and barbarians that trade out trap sense for a variety of far more useful things? Yes, yes they should.

Kylarra
2009-09-27, 09:30 AM
i was saying from an RP perspective... its not something an adventurer will do, but helps shape the world :)
The extremely useful was a bit sarcastic.Magic has a far more telling theoretical impact on the world than just low level undead turning, but sure.

Philistine
2009-09-27, 10:12 AM
Who said every class feature has to be powerful? Barbarians get Trap Sense; are you proposing that campaigns with few traps should allow them to use those bonuses on other things?

Clerics have an added tool they can use against undead. It's not always the best one to use, and it's not really a gamechanger, but it is an advantage (especially when facing multiple weaker ones). Why does that need to be bigger than it is?

The problem isn't that it's "not powerful," the problem is that it's completely useless unless you're in a low-level undead-hunting campaign (so, most of the time). Paladin Turning is useless even then - and Paladin is not exactly a Tier One class. And since DMM's potential for abuse is so easily controlled, banning it seems very much like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

sofawall
2009-09-27, 10:37 AM
Rules that let a player break the game as easily as the cliched-at-this-point Nightstick+DMM combo are the very definition of cheesey. Using stuff from non-core books increases the liklihood of such nonsense, but is by no means automatic - there's lots of things I like from Frostburn, Complete Adventurer, etc.

Myself, I would never let players go for the "trading turn undead attempts for metamagic" route at all, unless it was a campaign where undead were a common and formidable treat, and it was actually a real sacrifice to not have the ability to turn them.

The only reason splat books introduce more chances for cheesy material is because they introduce more material, period. I'd be willing to bet the proportions of balanced stuff is splatbooks outnumbers that in Core.

And by balanced, I mean neither too strong, nor too weak. Therefore, at least two core classes are unbalanced on the weak side, and another 2 are very likely to join them (Fighter and monk, and likely Paladin and Bard, if using core-only). In fact, let's also take out wizard, sorcerer, druid and cleric, as they're obviously brokenly powerful. We are left with Barbarian, Rogue and Ranger?

Real balanced in core.

Riffington
2009-09-27, 12:31 PM
Ok, so: I've seen noncheesy alternate uses of Turn attempts. I've seen noncheesy DMM (It's mostly the Persist and the Swift that cause problems). But how often are nightsticks actually used in a noncheesy fashion?

Glimbur
2009-09-27, 01:13 PM
Extra Turning>DM.

Hey, Turn DM is an Epic feat. Keep your level 21+ things out of our 1-20 thread.

Bayar
2009-09-27, 04:23 PM
Define Splatbook cheese. Are you saying using splatbooks is cheesy?

Might as well ban Core. It is cheesy with them wizards and clerics and druids :wink:

Keld Denar
2009-09-27, 04:34 PM
New available class list:

Warblade
Swordsage
Crusader
Dragonfire Adept
Warlock
Beguiler
Dread Necro
Warmage
Factotum
Spirit Shaman
Favored Soul
Knight
Duskblade
Totemist
Incarnate
Binder


There...I just fixed the game. Nothing too strong, nothing too weak. No core classes.

sonofzeal
2009-09-27, 04:34 PM
Considering the number of alternate class features for both rogues and barbarians that trade out trap sense for a variety of far more useful things? Yes, yes they should.
I'm sure there's a ACF or five for Clerics that trades out their Turn Undead.


The problem isn't that it's "not powerful," the problem is that it's completely useless unless you're in a low-level undead-hunting campaign (so, most of the time). Paladin Turning is useless even then - and Paladin is not exactly a Tier One class. And since DMM's potential for abuse is so easily controlled, banning it seems very much like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I believe it's possible to pump it up until it's competitive, and it's seriously effective against undead minions. And, honestly, half the time I've seen undead in a campaign, they're in large groups of relatively weak ones that are ripe for a Turning or two. Necromancers love having swarms of undead minions, and Zombie Apocalypse scenarios are reasonably popular too. It certainly won't get used ever session, but neither will the Barbarian's Trap Sense, or the Druid's Resist Nature’s Lure, or the Bard's Countersong.

There's all sorts of class features that are pretty much throwaways, the question is how effective the class is overall. And Clerics are quite powerful enough without a boost. If they were lagging, sure, beef up Turning to get them more competitive, but they aren't. I completely fail to see why they're entitled to more power than the basic rules gave them.

taltamir
2009-09-27, 04:46 PM
Might as well ban Core. It is cheesy with them wizards and clerics and druids :wink:

yes, core is full of cheese, often the worse cheese if found IN core.

I would just say, ban things selectively.

sofawall
2009-09-27, 06:05 PM
New available class list:

Warblade
Swordsage
Crusader
Dragonfire Adept
Warlock
Beguiler
Dread Necro
Warmage
Factotum
Spirit Shaman
Favored Soul
Knight
Duskblade
Totemist
Incarnate
Binder


There...I just fixed the game. Nothing too strong, nothing too weak. No core classes.

Barbarian isn't too bad. Quite fond of the bard outside of Core. Not all core is bad.

EDIT: I also note something capable of casting Gate. The game is not fixed.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-27, 08:39 PM
Barbarian isn't too bad. Quite fond of the bard outside of Core. Not all core is bad.

EDIT: I also note something capable of casting Gate. The game is not fixed.

If you are referring to the Warmage, then sort of. The player has to trudge through 18 levels of near-suck in order to get that spell.

Really, if it's that big of a problem, replace it with a force-Gestalted Adept//Expert. Medium BAB, good spell lists, great skills, and a familiar (for rubbing it in the Lightning Warrior's face). It may not be the most powerful class, but it is strong enough to make up for lack of class features (and PrCs are always an option for that).

shadow_archmagi
2009-09-27, 09:05 PM
New available class list:
There...I just fixed the game. Nothing too strong, nothing too weak. No core classes.


Surely it would've made more sense to just use the existing Tier system and decide what classes to allow based on whatever Tier you felt like playing at?

Keld Denar
2009-09-27, 09:20 PM
Pshhhh, that would be too easy. I had fun coming up with that list!

Ozymandias9
2009-09-27, 10:46 PM
book of bad latin?

It's perfectly fine for a medieval Iberian dialect. Let's just be absurdly generous and assume that one of the authors took a couple absurdly specific courses on historical latin linguistics.

Cyclocone
2009-09-28, 04:05 AM
If you are referring to the Warmage, then sort of. The player has to trudge through 18 levels of near-suck in order to get that spell.

Really, if it's that big of a problem, replace it with a force-Gestalted Adept//Expert. Medium BAB, good spell lists, great skills, and a familiar (for rubbing it in the Lightning Warrior's face). It may not be the most powerful class, but it is strong enough to make up for lack of class features (and PrCs are always an option for that).

Don't Incarnates get Gate 1/week from one of their soul binds? or am i just misremembering things?

Oh, and Beguilers have Time Stop, and they can get Mindrape through Expanded Knowledge.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-28, 04:42 AM
Who said every class feature has to be powerful? Barbarians get Trap Sense; are you proposing that campaigns with few traps should allow them to use those bonuses on other things?

Clerics have an added tool they can use against undead. It's not always the best one to use, and it's not really a gamechanger, but it is an advantage (especially when facing multiple weaker ones). Why does that need to be bigger than it is?

Except many uses are given for Turn Undead.

Some allow for healing.
Some, for bonuses to attack and damage.
Others? Improve your shield.
Some provide energy resistance.
Some affect metamagic.

In several books, in several sources. And for every rules abuse you can think of from those, there's at least 2 abuses possible in core.

Saying splatbooks are cheese, and abilities shouldn't be functional? That's not fair to the ability.

Trap sense is an always-on ability. Of course its power has to be reined in.

Much moreso than a limited use daily ability. Like Turning.

xPANCAKEx
2009-09-28, 08:04 AM
i thought you were only allowed to use one nightstick per day?

Starbuck_II
2009-09-28, 08:11 AM
Don't Incarnates get Gate 1/week from one of their soul binds? or am i just misremembering things?

Oh, and Beguilers have Time Stop, and they can get Mindrape through Expanded Knowledge.

Yeah, but you have to be pretty high level to get that.