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View Full Version : [3.5] Because We Hate Casters: The Witch Killer base class



Omegonthesane
2009-09-25, 07:56 AM
Witch Killer
In a world full of magic, it would seem inevitable that magicians shall rule. What is the point of mastering a blade when it takes no more effort to create whole universes and summon demons to your aid? But in a world where magi rule, or threaten to rule, witch killers are inevitable. Fuelled by an unmatched hatred of magic and the supernatural, they crusade against all sorcery and seek to undo the horrors magic has done.

Alignment: Any. Typically, good witch killers will proselytise about the evils that magic has caused, and focus their efforts on evil spellcasters. Evil witch killers... well, will use their powers for their own benefit, usually at the expense of innocent spellcasters.

Adaptation: The witch killer is intended to draw his powers from hatred of magic and determination to live without magic. But it could also represent an esoteric martial artist with lots of magic-hurting skills. The mechanics support fluff of a magic hater, but if you don't like the fluff, he can be a badass monk whose only motive for never using magic is because he's that badass, and rename his Armor of Hate ability to be Armor of Iron Will.

Statistics: Witch killers are martial types, so Strength and Constitution are their most important stats. However, they also benefit from having one high mental statistic, for bonus counterspell slots and higher save DCs on their abilities.

Table: The Witch Killer
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Counterspelling, Spell Resistance, Detect Witch|3|1

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Bonus feat, Smite Witch +1d4|4|2

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Burn the Witch|4|2|1

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Bonus feat, Smite Witch +2d4|4|3|2

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Never Submit|4|3|2|1

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Bonus feat, Run on the Air, Smite Witch +3d4|4|3|3|2

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Sear the Witch, Never Sleep|4|4|3|2|1

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Bonus feat, Smite Witch +4d4|4|4|3|3|2

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Behold the Witch, Proselytise|4|4|4|3|2|1

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+7|Bonus feat, Smite Witch +5d4|4|4|4|3|3|2

11th|
+11/+6/+6|
+7|
+3|
+7|Walk on the Air, Punish the Witch|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

12th|
+12/+7/+7|
+8|
+4|
+8|Bonus feat, Smite Witch +6d4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

13th|
+13/+8/+8|
+8|
+4|
+8| Never Despair|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

14th|
+14/+9/+9|
+9|
+4|
+9|Bonus feat, Smite Witch +7d4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

15th|
+15/+10/+10|
+9|
+5|
+9|Pay Magic unto Magic|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

16th|
+16/+11/+11/+11|
+10|
+5|
+10|Bonus feat, Smite Witch +8d4, Never Drained|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

17th|
+17/+12/+12/+12|
+10|
+5|
+10|No Escape, Never Die|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

18th|
+18/+13/+13/+13|
+11|
+6|
+11|Bonus feat, Smite Witch +9d4, Destroy Magic|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

19th|
+19/+14/+14/+14|
+11|
+6|
+11|Destroy the Witch, Really Never Die|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3

20th|
+20/+15/+15/+15|
+12|
+6|
+12|Bonus feat, Smite Witch +10d4, Like A Badass Out Of Hell|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4[/table]

Hit Die: d12
Class Skills: Any six (except Truespeak and Use Magic Device), plus Craft, Profession, and Spellcraft.

Skill Points/level: 2 + Int modifier.

Proficiencies: Witch killers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and all armour and shields.

Counterspelling (Ex): A witch killer has a number of spell slots, as shown on the table. He cannot cast any spells from these slots. However, whenever anyone who he has line of sight to casts a spell, reads from a scroll, uses a wand, or creates a spell or spell-like effect by any other means the rules allow for, even if it is not his turn and even if he is flat-footed, he may negate the resulting spell as a free action by expending a counterspell slot of an equal or higher level. He may do this any number of times per round, it is limited only by having to react to a spell. He does not even have to identify (in-character) the spell being used, although he does automatically know which counterspell slot he just expended. A witch killer cannot use this ability if he is currently dead.

Spell Resistance (Ex): A witch killer has Spell Resistance equal to his class level plus 10. This applies against psionic abilities as well as spells

Detect Witch (Ex): A witch killer can sense the presence of spellcasters in a 60ft cone-shaped emanation in front of her by concentrating as a standard action each round. The amount of information revealed depends on how long she studies a particular area or subject, and she can only detect spellcasters if she has a line of sight to them.
1st round: Presence or absence of spellcasters.
2nd round: Number of spellcasters in the area, and the highest caster level in the area. A person with two caster levels (e.g. a bard/sorcerer or wizard/cleric) is detected as two different spellcasters.
3rd round: The caster level and location of each spellcaster, and whether their spells are arcane or divine. Again, a person with more than one source of spellcasting counts as two spellcasters.

Smite Witch (Ex): Such is the witch killer's hatred of spellcasters that it manifests as additional direct damage. Starting at 2nd level, a witch killer deals 1d4 extra damage to any spellcasters she attacks with any physical attack. These dice are not multiplied by damage multipliers, and are not applied to any bonus attacks beyond those granted by Base Attack Bonus. This damage increases by +1d4 every two levels after. A witch killer may choose not to apply this ability to her strikes at no penalty, and if her attack does nonlethal damage then additional damage from Smite Witch is nonlethal damage. This ability only works against people whose caster level is more than 1/2 their character level
Special: If you are not fluffing the Witch Killer as someone who hates magic, then the power of Smite Witch comes from the fact that their training allows them to be anathema to spellcasters if it is convenient to them.

Bonus feat: At every even-numbered level a witch killer gets a Fighter bonus feat. If you are using the Gaming Den Tome rules, she instead gets a [Combat] feat at 2nd level and every four levels after 2nd.

Burn the Witch (Ex): From 3rd level onward, whenever a witch killer counterspells a spell, she may turn the spell's raw power against its caster. The caster suffers 1d6 fire damage per spell level (1d3 fire damage for level 0 spells), and may make a Fortitude save to halve this damage. The save DC is 10 + the spell level + the highest of the witch killer's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma modifiers.

Never Submit (Ex): At 5th level, a witch killer benefits from the effect of protection from evil, except as noted here. First, all creatures count as evil for the purposes of her protection from evil, even if they are neutral or good. Second, the save DC against this ability is 10 + 1/2 the witch killer's class level, rounded up + the highest of the witch killer's Int, Wis, and Cha modifiers.

Run on the Air (Ex): At 6th level, a witch killer has pushed her body to limits not normally possible for mortals, and has found that magic is not needed to defy gravity. She is able to fly as if under the effect of a Fly spell for 1 minute per class level per day, and need not use up the entire time limit in one continuous burst.

Sear the Witch (Ex): At 7th level, a witch killer may reduce the fire damage from Burn the Witch by 1d6. By doing so, he causes it to bypass fire resistance, and deal half damage to spellcasters with fire immunity.

Never Sleep (Ex): A witch killer of 7th level no longer needs to sleep. She still can only refill her counterspelling slots once per day, however.

Behold the Witch (Ex): At 9th level, a witch killer can no longer be fooled by magical tricks. She gains the benefits of true seeing all the time, except that the range of her true seeing is infinite.

Proselytise (Ex): At 10th level, a witch killer may spend three full rounds preaching about how abominable magic is and how people don't need it to survive. She provokes attacks of opportunity every round while doing so. After the three full rounds are done, everyone who has listened for all three rounds must make a Will save or lose the effects (beneficial or otherwise) of all spells currently affecting them, and all ability to cast further spells, for 1 hour per class level of the witch killer. Anyone who intentionally fails the save also gains the special abilities (but not the bonus feats, saves, hit dice, base attack bonus, or counterspell slots) of a witch killer with a class level equal to their character level for the duration of the effect. The save DC is 10 + 1/2 the witch killer's character level + the highest of her Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma modifiers.

Walk on the Air (Ex): At 11th level, a witch killer requires less effort than before to step outside the limits of gravity, and may walk at a stately pace rather than sprinting like a man possessed while doing so. She may fly as if under an overland flight spell for 1 hour per class level, and need not use up the entire time limit in one continuous burst. She cannot use this effect and Run on the Air at the same time; the effects are separate. However, she may switch between them in mid air as a free action.

Punish the Witch (Ex): Also at 11th level, a witch killer may reduce the fire damage from Burn the Witch by 2d6. By doing so, she causes it to bypass fire resistance and fire immunity completely.

Never Despair (Ex): At 13th level, a witch killer acts as if constantly under the effect of a mind blank spell.

Pay Magic unto Magic (Ex): When counterspelling, a 15th level witch killer may turn the countered spell back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning, then it is merely counterspelled. This ability cannot be used in conjunction with Burn the Witch.

Never Die (Ex): At 17th level, even death cannot stop a witch killer forever. If she has not already been raised or resurrected 24 hours after her death, and she did not die of old age, she receives the benefit of a true resurrection spell with no material component required, and reappears in a safe place at least 1d4 miles from where she died. This ability does not function if a witch killer is killed with a weapon that has no magical properties other than an enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls, or if she is killed by any other entirely nonmagical effect like taking a swim in lava.

No Escape (Ex): At 18th level a witch killer's Detect Witch ability cannot be blocked or deceived by any means, not even epic magic or mind blank.

Destroy the Witch (Ex): At 19th level, when counterspelling a spell of 6th level or higher, a witch killer may use two counterspell slots of equal or higher level than the spell being counterspelled, rather than the usual one. If a witch killer elects to do this, the counterspell has an additional effect of either banishing or killing the target (witch killer's choice). If the victim of this effect fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the spell level + the highest of the witch killer's Int, Wis, and Cha modifiers) against the kill effect, she dies outright. If the saving throw fails against the banishment effect, the victim is banished to the outer plane that most closely matches her alignment, and may not return to the plane she was banished from for a year and a day.

Really Never Die (Ex): A Witch Killer of 19th level no longer suffers penalties for aging, has any aging penalties she has already suffered removed, and will never die of old age. She still accrues benefits for aging as normal.

Like A Badass Out Of Hell (Ex): A Witch Killer of 20th level is a creature of legend. The next time she dies and returns to life, she becomes an Outsider with the Native subtype and the Augmented subtype of her previous type, and all her attacks count as Epic for the purpose of damage reduction. Her appearance also changes in a fashion that reflects her new status, like horns, or golden hair, or faintly glowing skin; whatever it is, it is too trivial to have any additional mechanical benefit or drawback.

ericgrau
2009-09-25, 10:06 AM
The weapon and armor proficiency could be abused by dippers. Just give him simple weapon, martial weapon, heavy armor, shield and tower shield proficiency.

The spell resistance scaling is funky. It's virtually nonexistant at first level and weak at 20th. Just try 10 + class level or some such. The ability score enhancement doesn't scale as fast as magic items. Likewise consider a natural armor bonus, or just increasing the max armor bonus to +10ish.

BRC
2009-09-25, 10:17 AM
Looks okay (except for the Proficiencies), though I have trouble imagining one as anything but an antagonist, since the fluff constantly talks about their hatred of magic, and most groups probably have at least one spellcaster.

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 10:21 AM
.... So let's talk about counterspelling. Is this automatic? Do you still have to ready an action? Is there a caster level check? How does this work?

Baron Corm
2009-09-25, 10:21 AM
Still loses to a spellcaster polymorphed into a war troll :smallbiggrin:. Erect a strong mundane cage over the spot where they would revive. I'm sure this would cause you to make a class feature specifically being immune to them polymorphing, and mundane cages... but really the whole class is just an arms race and you might as well make them immune to 1 spell level per 2 levels =/

ericgrau
2009-09-25, 10:23 AM
Assuming normal counterspelling rules you'd ready an action. Which means the caster might still get a spell off in round 1 or before combat, a spell beyond the killer's level, or a quickened spell. Or if the killer attacks instead of readying, thinking there are no casters around.

Depending on what spells the DM allows casters and how one-sided you want the fight to be (in either direction), you could give the witch killer a way to get rid of magic after the fact.

BRC
2009-09-25, 10:24 AM
Still loses to a spellcaster polymorphed into a war troll :smallbiggrin:. Erect a strong mundane cage over the spot where they would revive. I'm sure this would cause you to make a class feature specifically being immune to them polymorphing, and mundane cages... but really the whole class is just an arms race and you might as well make them immune to 1 spell level per 2 levels =/
This is a good point. I'm not saying he should add a class feature specifically to stop polymorphing and mundane cages, but some sort of Dispelling effect would fit with it. Maybe a Full round action to channel a Dispel Magic through a melee attack.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-25, 10:24 AM
Prior to fight: Deeper Darkness + Devil's Sight (persisted). Anyone say anything about line of sight?
Round 0: Celerity+Timestop (maxed via rod/feat/incantatrix)
Timestop round 1: Negate daze (several ways for that), Shapechange; Titan
Timestop round 2: Forcecage the Witch Killer
Timestop round 3: Pick up 5-ton rock and place on forcecage.
Timestop round 4: Coat rock with trollbane.
Timestop round 5: Eat snack of preference.
Round 0 continues: Another celerity; disintegrate the forcecage.

Rock falls, Witch Killer dies.

Round 1: Remove 5-ton rock, Shapechange to Barghest.
Rounds 2-11: Eat Witch Killer corpse. No ressurection possible.



EDIT:
The above post indicates the futility of fighting magic without magic-or abilities equally strong and equally versatile to magic.

BRC
2009-09-25, 10:31 AM
Prior to fight: Deeper Darkness + Devil's Sight (persisted). Anyone say anything about line of sight?
Round 0: Celerity+Timestop (maxed via rod/feat/incantatrix)
Timestop round 1: Negate daze (several ways for that), Shapechange; Titan
Timestop round 2: Forcecage the Witch Killer
Timestop round 3: Pick up 5-ton rock and place on forcecage.
Timestop round 4: Coat rock with trollbane.
Timestop round 5: Eat snack of preference.
Round 0 continues: Another celerity; disintegrate the forcecage.

Rock falls, Witch Killer dies.

Round 1: Remove 5-ton rock, Shapechange to Barghest.
Rounds 2-11: Eat Witch Killer corpse. No ressurection possible.
So what you're saying is that all Wizards should carry a delicious sandwich on them at all times?
Actually, the fact that my character had a sandwich on him once helped my party out immensely.

Catch
2009-09-25, 10:35 AM
EDIT:
The above post indicates the futility of fighting magic without magic-or abilities equally strong and equally versatile to magic.

No, it relies on the assumptions of the Tippyverse, in that all Wizards are prepared for all threats at all times, are never surprised, low on spells, or missing a spell crucial to their brilliant magical riposte. I especially like how you used almost every flat-out-broken spell, apart from Gate and Disjunction.

The ironic part about these arguments is that whenever someone suggests the caster might be at a less-than-optimal starting condition, it's considered a horseshoe in the glove. :smallannoyed:

That said, magic is almost always going to be superior.

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 10:38 AM
So what you're saying is that all Wizards should carry a delicious sandwich on them at all times?
Actually, the fact that my character had a sandwich on him once helped my party out immensely.


Yes. I agree. And that sandwich should be the party psion. Do not snack on him.

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 10:40 AM
No, it relies on the assumptions of the Tippyverse, in that all Wizards are prepared for all threats at all times, are never surprised, low on spells, or missing a spell crucial to their brilliant magical riposte. I especially like how you used almost every flat-out-broken spell, apart from Gate and Disjunction.

That said, magic is almost always going to be superior.

Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Dweomerkeeper 5/ Divine Oracle 10.

Immune to surprise. Mantle of spells means you are basically always prepared. I think we have nothing else to discuss. I even get a free daily wish. I love how people talk about the tippyverse as though greyhawk isn't in it.

Worira
2009-09-25, 10:41 AM
Needs moar hit dice.

BRC
2009-09-25, 10:47 AM
Yes. I agree. And that sandwich should be the party psion. Do not snack on him.
Really, if there is ever a sandwich character in the party, you'd think they would be a bard, what with that racial bonus to Perform (Deliciousness)

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-25, 10:48 AM
Usually a wizard has to fill in the additional timestop time he has in executing most kill-plans. The longest I've ever taken for a fool-proof kill plan was 37 timestop rounds to kill a CR 60 cosmic entity. The spell slots gave me 40 so I had 6 full-round actions (chronotyryn take dual actions) to do nothing but wait. We can't be wasting time like that.
[/endjoke]


In all seriousness, the power of magic is not the strength of the class or even the spells themselves-but the vast number of options. It is possible to kill anything as long as you know what it is.
A successful Mage-Killer cannot be passively defencive. The counterspells thing is a really good idea but it can be worked around. I suggest instead of improving the counterspells ability, to add additional abilities that limit magic in other ways. Some suggestions;

Eldritch Silence: spend one of the spell slots to create a silence effect that applies only to magical incantations. Higher spell slots = wider silence.

Instant negation: whenever the witch-hunter comes into contact with an ongoing magical effect, she can immediately spend a spell slot of equal level to negate it. This includes coming into contact with buffed creatures (in which case you can negate the buffs)

Eldritch Warp; whenever a spell is cast in range, spend an equal level slot to reverse the intended effect. E.g. a spell meant to haste may slow. a spell meant to damage an enemy may heal an enemy-or damage a friend. a spell summoning a creature to attack an enemy will have the creature attack the caster. A spell shapeshifting the target into a powerful creature will shapeshift the target into a weak creature.

Catch
2009-09-25, 10:49 AM
Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Dweomerkeeper 5/ Divine Oracle 10.

Immune to surprise. Mantle of spells means you are basically always prepared. I think we have nothing else to discuss. I even get a free daily wish. I love how people talk about the tippyverse as though greyhawk isn't in it.

This doesn't add much to the dialogue. Apart from the fallacy that if one specific optimized build can counter a specific situation, then the whole idea is a wash. Not that I harbor any special fondness for anti-caster classes or in any way believe that hate is going to one day surpass magic.

Anyway, as written, the Witch Killer is built on sand. Trying to fight magic without magic in the D&D world is like trying to fight guns without guns in our world. As a couple of people have already pointed out, the Wizard (or Cleric, Druid, Archivist, heck even Warlock) have ways of anticipating, countering or ignoring the WK's class abilities. The only way anti-caster classes are viable are at low-magic levels, when spellcasters have few items and spells per day, and the best tricks are still a ways off.

Lappy9000
2009-09-25, 11:56 AM
You need to add Hit Die and Spell List, although exactly why a being who hates and despises magic gets magic is beyond me.

Also, there are waaay too many abilities crammed in between those two levels, and the amount of skills and weapon proficiencies are just opening the door to cheese. I know you're trying to beat the wizard, but cheese vs cheese isn't exactly a good thing.

deuxhero
2009-09-25, 12:01 PM
^he has no spells, the slots are exclusively for counterspells (speaking of, I would give them spellcraft automaticly to use these slots and to ID casters)

The magic restrictions are pretty bad (though paired with VoP might be decent, but still no fly) meaning the most use I can see this class getting is a foe for DMs to throw at the players when the DM thinks the players have to much money.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-25, 12:16 PM
Prior to fight: Deeper Darkness + Devil's Sight (persisted). Anyone say anything about line of sight?
Round 0: Celerity+Timestop (maxed via rod/feat/incantatrix)
Timestop round 1: Negate daze (several ways for that), Shapechange; Titan
Timestop round 2: Forcecage the Witch Killer
Timestop round 3: Pick up 5-ton rock and place on forcecage.
Timestop round 4: Coat rock with trollbane.
Timestop round 5: Eat snack of preference.
Round 0 continues: Another celerity; disintegrate the forcecage.

Rock falls, Witch Killer dies.

Round 1: Remove 5-ton rock, Shapechange to Barghest.
Rounds 2-11: Eat Witch Killer corpse. No ressurection possible.

I tweaked Counterspell. In fact, I buffed it almost ridiculously. Here's how it goes now:
Round 0: Celerity is Counterspelled. Because a 20 Witch Killer can do that any number of times as a free action even if it's not his turn and even if he's flat-footed provided he has the spell slots. In fact, so can a 1 Witch Killer. Wizard takes damage from Punish the Witch, because Witch Killer knows he's fire-immune and takes the 2d6 damage hit accordingly
Round 1: Wizard wins initiative. Shapechange is Counterspelled; Wizard takes damage from Punish the Witch. Quickened Forcecage is Counterspelled; Wizard takes damage from Punish the Witch. Witch Killer charges with big weapon. Wizard dies.

Or even better:
Round 0: Celerity is Counterspelled. Wizard fails his save versus Destroy the Witch, and thus is banished for a year and a day.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-25, 12:23 PM
The magic restrictions are pretty bad (though paired with VoP might be decent, but still no fly) meaning the most use I can see this class getting is a foe for DMs to throw at the players when the DM thinks the players have to much money.


Run on the Air (Ex): At 6th level, a witch killer has pushed her body to limits not normally possible for mortals, and has found that magic is not needed to defy gravity. She is able to fly as if under the effect of a Fly spell for 1 minute per class level per day, and need not use up the entire time limit in one continuous burst.
...
Walk on the Air (Ex): At 11th level, a witch killer requires less effort than before to step outside the limits of gravity, and may walk at a stately pace rather than sprinting like a man possessed while doing so. She may fly as if under an overland flight spell for 1 hour per class level, and need not use up the entire time limit in one continuous burst. She cannot use this effect and Run on the Air at the same time; the effects are separate. However, she may switch between them in mid air as a free action.
I got the fly problem covered. If I've calculated right I've got it covered at the exact same level that Wizards get the spells being emulated.

Should I double & spread out the Witch Killer's various bonuses, or just say he gets Vow of Poverty as a bonus feat without needing to meet the prerequisites (even the poverty part)? EDIT: Armor of Hate now scales a little faster, Improved Body scales about twice as fast, Witch Killer can grant people who die in her sight one use of Never Die per person per time they die, and she doesn't get exotic weapon proficiencies anymore.

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 02:19 PM
How does the counterspelling work, precisely?

Omegonthesane
2009-09-25, 02:38 PM
How does the counterspelling work, precisely?

If you cast a spell and have line of sight to the witch killer, he can burn a spell slot of the right level or higher to counterspell you as if he were a spellcaster with the same spell who'd identified the spell you just cast.

Once you've got your head around that, Burn/Sear/Punish/Destroy the Witch and Pay Magic unto Magic shouldn't need further explanation.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-25, 02:40 PM
Sorry, the witch-hunter still dies. The wizard becomes Incorporeal with the 5th level spell Wraithform, the 7th level spell Ghostform or by shapechanging into something incorporeal pre-fight.

He is now utterly immune to all the witch-hunter's abilities because incorporeal entities are immune to nonmagical effects (which all the hunter's abilites are)

Realms of Chaos
2009-09-25, 04:12 PM
The thing is that your deeper darkness idea for preparation wouldn't work anyways as true seeing would pierce it.

also, turning incorporeal would only get you so far as the counterspelling ability isn't extraordinary. It seems to be in the same category as spells except reversed. If that is so, your incorporeal spells would still fail.
Watch as it counters your celerity and then counters your teleport.
Also, last time that I checked (although I don't have dungeonscape with me), trollbane allowed a Fort Save (although there are a couple psionic powers that ignore regeneration).

In an arena, the only way for this thing to be beat by a caster is to have the caster either start the fight incorporeal or have a teleportation/incorporeality spell set to a contingency (counterspelling can't stop the activation of a contingency) and then use the effect to leave the target's line of sight before using time stop (which makes you undetectable and thus eliminates line of sight) and then unloading a series of effects that indirectly kill the witch hunter while overcoming regeneration.
In a dungeon, a wizard only has to walk around a corner in order to cut off line of sight and cast their time stop, making this quite easy to do.

However, all that the creator of this class has to do in order to shut down timestop (and yes, such a thing is possible) is to change counterspelling do that the witch hunter can counter any spell cast by a caster who possesses a line of sight or line of effect with the witch hunter (even when undetectable and running around with time stop, line of effects persist).

Also, I must ask why you insist on the use of shapechange when the PHB II did everything but send out an affadavit screaming out "alter self, baleful polymorph, polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange were all terrible and overpowered ideas. We apologize and ask that you not use them". The polymorph subschool of magic was obviously designed to replace these spells but whatever. I'll pretend in my mind's eye that you used Body of War and Barghest's Feast instead.

One glaring problem with this class is its obvious invulnerability. There is no way to make this thing immune to wizards but vulnerable to fighters because wizards can pretty much summon fighters. Right now, it takes alot of work, many spells, and an unlucky fortitude save to kill this thing by any means.

Furthermore, the gift of life ability seems to pretty much be an at will True Ressurection with the restriction that you must see the character die. That is powerful, perhaps too much so.

edit: actually, there is a way to fix the invulnerability. Allow the regeneration to by bypassed by "any mundane weapon wielded by a creature without spellcasting ability, so long as neither the weapon nor creature are the effect or target of any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability." If you allow this vulnerability, I'd allow the witch hunter to retain their fast healing when they obtain regeneration. You may also want to state that the bonus from armor of hate does not apply against such attacks (as you have no hatred towards the mundane)
Also, under class skills, you may want to list Use Magic Device as another skill you cannot select along with truespeak.

dentrag2
2009-09-25, 04:21 PM
*Cough* Never Die and Really Never Die seem broken... somehow.

Realms of Chaos
2009-09-25, 04:32 PM
Really never die doesn't seem that overpowered. Monks gain the same basic benefit when they become outsiders at 20th level. The only thing making this different is that you do lose penalties you have already accrued.

Never die, however, is powerful. Perhaps require some action to recharge this ability after using either never die or gift of life, such as slaying a spellcaster or destroying magic items. That would make this guy killable by some means.

Another Note: You mention bonus counterspell slots at one point (when listing what ability scores should be high) but forget to actually mention them in the description of the counterspell ability.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-25, 04:44 PM
*Cough* Never Die and Really Never Die seem broken... somehow.

The assumption is that unless you're playing a party of Witch Killers and their fanboys, you have several ways to resurrect people for free at 17th level even without access to a cleric.


Sorry, the witch-hunter still dies. The wizard becomes Incorporeal with the 5th level spell Wraithform, the 7th level spell Ghostform or by shapechanging into something incorporeal pre-fight.

He is now utterly immune to all the witch-hunter's abilities because incorporeal entities are immune to nonmagical effects (which all the hunter's abilites are)

There are two solutions to this.
1) I insert a new line: "A witch hunter's extraordinary abilities all count as magical abilities whenever it is beneficial for them to do so. For example, against incorporeal creatures who would normally be immune to extraordinary abilities, Burn the Witch counts as a magical ability and therefore does the usual fire damage."

2) I decide that this class is already very powerful and I'll settle for being able to pose a serious challenge to all wizards with only one arbitrary "You Die" weakness. Better than most encounters manage.


Really never die doesn't seem that overpowered. Monks gain the same basic benefit when they become outsiders at 20th level. The only thing making this different is that you do lose penalties you have already accrued.

Never die, however, is powerful. Perhaps require some action to recharge this ability after using either never die or gift of life, such as slaying a spellcaster or destroying magic items. That would make this guy killable by some means.
BoVD Pain domain. Eternity of Torture. 9th level SoD which doesn't technically kill you and thus doesn't trigger Never Die.
Also, let a barghest eat the witch hunter's soul, as outlined in an earlier attempt to kill him.
Also also, Flesh to Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshtoStone.htm). You're not technically dead so you can't return to life.
Also also also, Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulbind.htm) followed by using the witch killer's soul in an evil spell (BoVD). Kills anything in the universe forever and not even the gods can bring it back. You just have to kill it temporarily first.

EoT and FtS are magic, so the witch killer is unlikely to fall, but the barghest method never allows SR or a Will save (although it has a 50% failure rate) and the Soul Bind method only requires magic once the target is too dead to see you to counterspell.

Realms of Chaos
2009-09-25, 05:02 PM
Heh, and I've been completely ignored, of course *insert chirping crickets because I need their company* Edit: not quite ignored.

Also, realize that turning incorporeal kind of takes away your ability to pick up the 5-ton rock as a titan (although telekinesis works as well).

I agree with Catch that people kind of overestimate spellcasters. Not all of them have 10 levels of Divine Oracle. If they did, they would not all have 5 level of abjurant champion (or whatever that class from complete mage is), another class used to argue the superiority of mages. In fact, there are so many such PrCs that it is impossible that a single non-epic character has completed all of them and is thus prepared for the specific situations that each one allows you to overcome.
Similarly, some casters prefer to play without cheese. they don't use polymorph or celerity voluntarily. They don't take divine metamagic and load up on nightsticks. While some argue that such players are "not optomized", the definition of optomized now seems to mean "drowning in cheese". It should be the average spellcaster who has no idea what they are going to run into that should be judged against other classes, not an optomizer's wet dream.
One frequent example of how people overestimate spellcasters is with contingency. No matter what situation you give an optomizer, they say that the proper contingent spell can overcome it. The problem is that you can only have one such spell as a time, not five. Also, the same people who say fighting spellcasters works only at low levels repeatedly use timestop as proof (when there are much better examples as 6th and 7th level spells). Level 16 is not low-leveled. Not every caster can have Alacritous Cognition, Cunning Foresight (or whatever that feat from Exemplars of Evil is called), and the few dozen other feats that casters keep claiming to have (if you claim that quicken spell, extradimensional spell, and extend spell get you out of different situations, understand that not all casters will have all three). [/rant]

SoD
2009-09-25, 05:16 PM
A class with d12 HD, full BAB (I assume the bad BAB scores [+20/+15/+15/+15] are typo's), who is constantly under haste from 7th level onwards?

Realms of Chaos
2009-09-25, 05:21 PM
Not a typo.

The improved Full attack class feature stops any attacks you make as part of a full attack from taking more than a -5 penalty to your full BAB (meaning that the third and fourth attacks only take a -5 penalty instead of a -10 and -15 penalty, respectively)

Omegonthesane
2009-09-25, 05:21 PM
However, all that the creator of this class has to do in order to shut down timestop (and yes, such a thing is possible) is to change counterspelling do that the witch hunter can counter any spell cast by a caster who possesses a line of sight or line of effect with the witch hunter (even when undetectable and running around with time stop, line of effects persist).
Which I'm not going to do. This guy is meant to be a wizard's worst nightmare, not a totally implacable and undefeatable destroyer of all that is magical.


One glaring problem with this class is its obvious invulnerability. There is no way to make this thing immune to wizards but vulnerable to fighters because wizards can pretty much summon fighters. Right now, it takes alot of work, many spells, and an unlucky fortitude save to kill this thing by any means.
Well, OK, I overdid it a little bit. In particular I think I should go back and rearrange the Improved Body bonuses to be 1 at every even-numbered level and a maximum of +10, which makes the Fort save a little less insane. That and reduce the fast healing to 1 every odd-numbered class level (with the switch from FH to Regeneration at level 15 as normal).


Furthermore, the gift of life ability seems to pretty much be an at will True Ressurection with the restriction that you must see the character die. That is powerful, perhaps too much so.
If you aren't chaining efreeti to your castle walls to get infinite gold to pay the cleric for and calling CR-appropriate challenges for your level-drained but rezzed friends to level grind against by 17th level, and you are a wizard, you are not playing standard D&D.


edit: actually, there is a way to fix the invulnerability. Allow the regeneration to by bypassed by "any mundane weapon wielded by a creature without spellcasting ability, so long as neither the weapon nor creature are the effect or target of any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability." If you allow this vulnerability, I'd allow the witch hunter to retain their fast healing when they obtain regeneration.
The reason they don't get both FH and Regen at any given time is that they have the same mechanical effect, basically. The only practical difference is that Regeneration lets you regrow limbs, which you could do anyway if you'd only let a cleric cast Regenerate on you.



Armor of Hate is meant to be as much a sign of contempt as of hate - "I can get natural armour bonuses without magic, screw you wizard!" :smallbiggrin: Also, that would screw over less hate-powered Witch Killers who'd renamed the ability "Armor of Iron Will" as suggested under Adaptation.

[quote]Also, under class skills, you may want to list Use Magic Device as another skill you cannot select along with truespeak.
Done.

Realms of Chaos
2009-09-25, 05:27 PM
What I mean by invulnerable is that this guy is meant to hunt down wizards so it seems odd that only wizards can kill it. Shouldn't someone using absolutely no magic against them be able to find some sort of chink in their antimagic defenses?

Omegonthesane
2009-09-26, 02:56 AM
Which specific part are you claiming is invincibility? Improved Body is just so the Witch Killer can keep up with a properly blinged up Fighter, and Never Die kicks in at 17th level when True Resurrection starts being being thrown around like cheap candy (and normal Resurrection is already being thrown around like cheap candy). Fast Healing and later Regeneration is possibly a little overboard, but I'm already nerfing that soon as I can be bothered to rework the table. Allowing even one thing in the entire game to do lethal damage to a WK's Regeneration would make it actually a minor nerf compared to the Fast Healing it's meant to replace, though. He'd go from being able to heal absolutely all damage at X/round to not being able to heal absolutely all damage at X/round.

It now occurs to me that the Tome Barbarian, from whom I got the idea of FH 1/class level, only gets it while raging. I ought to put a similar restriction on WKs. Later today.

EDIT: "Later today" is here. I've gone back and done a large number of minor tweaks that almost add up to an overhaul.

Realms of Chaos
2009-09-26, 06:07 AM
In the interest of making myself understandable, I will try to respond eloquently and efficiently.

First, allow me to state that in my many years of playing DnD (even at high levels), I have never seen a party make a grab for infinite gold. When someone does go for this, the party ends up with goods far beyond what characters of their level should possess. The result is that it is harder to calculate the difficulty of an encounter. Either a couple of super-powerful items win the game for the party or they fail and the party is easily slain. Most players I know stop themselves for this reason if nothing else.
Even in cases where this is not true, I have heard of DMs talking to certain... "ambitious" characters and gently explaining why infinite gold does not work for game balance. In every instance I have heard of, the players accepted this gracefully.
As such, in a standard party, it is best to assume that a 20th level party will have around 400,000 gp apiece.

Item #1: General Power Level
When considering the balance of this class, you seem to be weighing an average witch hunter against an optimized spellcaster. I suggest lowering the power level a bit and turning what you kick out into feats so that someone must do a bit of work to make it powerful (just as a wizard must choose metamagic spells and buy scrolls to become powerful). The following is the mental process I followed that led me to believe that this is overpowered.
The base statistics of this class are good. The best hit dice, two good saving throws, a good (and variable) skill list, good BAB, and great proficiencies.
This class gains 10 bonus fighter feats, one less than the fighter.
This class also gets a slew of anti-mage abilities. They are listed briefly in the spoiler below.


Anti-mage abilities at 20th level
Spell resistance 30
counterspelling sufficient to stop all spells cast by a single sorcerer of the same level
An unblockable and undecievable ability to detect casters within 120 feet (overcoming even epic magic) usable at will
deal fire damage to casters whose spells you counter, reduce the fire damage to overcome fire resistance, fire immunity, or to banish/slay the caster,
+5d6 damage against casters when making a physical attack.
give other people the full class features of this class and turn off all magic active on their person (both effects last 20 hours)
All spells countered turn against the caster as spell turning.
As full round action, make an attack against an object or creature with the added effects of Mage's Disjunction.



It is my belief that the good base statistics of this class + 10 fighter feats + the anti-magic abilities would make a decent class in and of itself, if the restrictions on magic and magic items were ignored.

Therefore, I reason that all additional abilities beyond this are there merely to compensate for the lack of magic items and magical buffs.
The rest of the Witch Hunter's abilities are listed briefly in the spoiler below for convenience.

Miscellaneous abilities at level 20, including the changes you claim that you intend to make already.

unpassable regeneration 10
10 bonus fighter feats
+10 enhancement to all saving throws
+10 enhancement to AC
+10 enhancement to attack and damage rolls
+5 deflection to AC
perpetual endure elements
+8/+6/+4/+2 enhancement bonuses to ability scores
+4 natural armor
fly for 20 minutes
negate the need for sleep
perpetual haste
are immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and alignment detecting effects (you also learn that the attempt has been made and give false information)
perpetual true seeing out to unlimited range
gain overland flight for 20 hours
no longer need to breathe
make full attacks better than everyone else
immunity to energy drain, level drain, and ability drain
can benefit from True Resurrection at will (1 hour after death)
can use True Resurrection at will (if you witness demise)
never die of old age
perpetual mind blank
attacks count as magical
attacks count as epic

The total accumulation of these abilities is more than any single set of items could provide a 20th level character at any given time. If they attempt to custom craft slotless items, the price doubles, meaning that they still can't afford all of it.
Therefore, I believe that the excess abilities simply make up for the fact that the Witch hunter can not recieve buff spells. There are a couple of problems with this approach, however.
1. With other classes, there are times when a buff hasn't been cast, its duration runs out, it is dispelled, or the character walks into an antimagic zone. The perpetual extraordinary abilities of the Witch Hunter do not have these problems.
2. When a fighter or barbarian is buffed, it takes several rounds and someone (the caster) is using up resources. The Witch hunter requires no warm up and takes no resources.
3. You are effectively trying to match the power of an average witch hunter to that of another class that has already recieved magical buffs from another character. As such, A level 20 Witch Hunter is always superior to a level 20 noncaster if no casters are nearby. This is not good balance.
I can see the counterarguement that these "constant buffs" aren't as versatile as what a wizard could actually do to another character. I do not, however, think that this reason is not sufficient to justify what has occured.

Item #2: Invincible against non-casters
I admit that I was slightly incorrect. There are a few possible ways for a character without magic to kill a Witch Hunter.
1. They can use trollbane and hope that the witch hunter rolls natural 1s.
2. They can use poison and hope that the witch hunter rolls low on their saving throws (no immunity to ability damage).
3. They can use a vorpal weapon/mask of the skull.
4. Although not actually "killing", per say, you can put the Witch Hunter in conditions that harm the Witch Hunter faster than it heals (such as lava), keeping it unconscious indefinitely.
In short, it is possible for noncasters to defeat the Witch Hunter. It isn't good, however, that the number of ways can be counted on one hand.
Unfortunately, I can't think of any way for noncasters to stop the inevitable revivial of a level 17+ Witch Hunter. Also not good.

Item #3: At Will True Ressurection
As I have stated at the beginning of this post, it is safe to assume that a 20th level character won't have more than 400,000 gp.
Now, consider that at least 3/4 of this is likely to be tied up in preexisting equipment (that seems conservative), meaning that 100,000 gp (5 metric tons of gold) are left in the form of coins, gems, and similar commodities.
Out of this reserve, the 25,000 gp needed for True resurrection is 25%.
In short, a 4-person 20th level party can afford 16 True Resurrections in total.
Never Die grants you a huge boon when you get it, considering that at 17th levle, that same 25,000 gp will be a larger proportion of your free gold. I believe that this is going a bit too far. Furthermore, it is difficult (but, as discussed, not impossible) to stop this ability.
Comparing this ability to the epic spell contingent resurrection, I am a bit disturbed.
In the epic spell's favor:
It allows you to get up immediately and continue a fight.

In Never Die's favor:

You get it far earlier than epic spells
You need not spend a feat (for epic spellcaster)
You do not need to waste time casting it on yourself
You do not spend time, money, or XP researching a spell
There is no chance of failure that contingent resurrection does not already possess (other than barghests)
It teleports you to "a safe place".

Continuing a fight is very, very strong so I'm going to say that these abilities are about equally powerful. A 17th level class feature should not be equal in power to an epic level spell, even if they are known for being a bit weak.

When we get into Gift of Life, things get worse.
As I have said, each of those crystals cost 25% of the available money that a 20th level party possesses. If you witness your entire party die and are then killed yourself, that should rightfully be a TPK. With gift of life/never die, however, you are revived and you don't pay the price that you should (all loose money that one player possesses).
Gift of Life makes TPKs nearly impossible. As has been stated, there are a few ways to stop someone killed from getting back up. Unless your party faces a medusa that insists on turning everyone to stone or that insists on starting with the Witch Hunter, everyone is safe.
Normally, True Ressurection has a 10 minute casting time. In this way, you can't afford to revive someone until the battle is over. Gift of Life ignores this, ensuring that the party comes back even if you lose the battle completely. This should not happen (at least before high epic levels).

Edit: Oops, I may have been ninja'd by your latest tweaks. Let me go and check.
Edit: Much of it still holds kind of true.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-26, 06:45 AM
In the interest of making myself understandable, I will try to respond eloquently and efficiently.
With a long post for me. Yay. I may already have sorted out some of these issues, but still.


First, allow me to state that in my many years of playing DnD (even at high levels), I have never seen a party make a grab for infinite gold. When someone does go for this, the party ends up with goods far beyond what characters of their level should possess. The result is that it is harder to calculate the difficulty of an encounter. Either a couple of super-powerful items win the game for the party or they fail and the party is easily slain. Most players I know stop themselves for this reason if nothing else.
Even in cases where this is not true, I have heard of DMs talking to certain... "ambitious" characters and gently explaining why infinite gold does not work for game balance. In every instance I have heard of, the players accepted this gracefully.
As such, in a standard party, it is best to assume that a 20th level party will have around 400,000 gp apiece
DM fiat is not relevant to game balance by RAW. Like, at all. If there's a way that a wizard can break the game's core assumptions, it's easier to change the core assumptions themselves than start whipping up arbitrary houserule after arbitrary houserule.


Item #1: General Power Level
When considering the balance of this class, you seem to be weighing an average witch hunter against an optimized spellcaster. I suggest lowering the power level a bit and turning what you kick out into feats so that someone must do a bit of work to make it powerful (just as a wizard must choose metamagic spells and buy scrolls to become powerful). The following is the mental process I followed that led me to believe that this is overpowered.
I did assume optimised casters, because I'm trying to fight wizards with neither magic nor Rule 0; you shouldn't need a Witch Killer running around if casters can be beaten normally. Assume at every level that my point of balance is PvP with Emperor Tippy himself.


The base statistics of this class are good. The best hit dice, two good saving throws, a good (and variable) skill list, good BAB, and great proficiencies.
This class gains 10 bonus fighter feats, one less than the fighter.
This class also gets a slew of anti-mage abilities. They are listed briefly in the spoiler below.


Anti-mage abilities at 20th level
Spell resistance 30
counterspelling sufficient to stop all spells cast by a single sorcerer of the same level
An unblockable and undecievable ability to detect casters within 120 feet (overcoming even epic magic) usable at will
deal fire damage to casters whose spells you counter, reduce the fire damage to overcome fire resistance, fire immunity, or to banish/slay the caster,
+5d6 damage against casters when making a physical attack.
give other people the full class features of this class and turn off all magic active on their person (both effects last 20 hours)
All spells countered turn against the caster as spell turning.
As full round action, make an attack against an object or creature with the added effects of Mage's Disjunction.


Smite Witch is 10d6 at 20th level now. Also, I think I should go back and make Proselytise not let you counterspell.
Also, you can't, nor were ever able to, combine Pay Magic unto Magic and Burn/Sear/Punish/Destroy the Witch. At least that wasn't my intent.
Finally, Detect Witch is probably just flavour. Rocket launcher tag is played at way further away than 120 feet, and he needs to waste 3 rounds just to see where the spellcaster is within the cone.


It is my belief that the good base statistics of this class + 10 fighter feats + the anti-magic abilities would make a decent class in and of itself, if the restrictions on magic and magic items were ignored.

Therefore, I reason that all additional abilities beyond this are there merely to compensate for the lack of magic items and magical buffs.
That is correct. In fact, I tried to time it so that WK gets it at the same time as a wizard or cleric of the same level would be able to cast it on him.



The rest of the Witch Hunter's abilities are listed briefly in the spoiler below for convenience.
They were probably correct until I edited the table, I'll now tweak your list to include what I've already changed about them that I didn't mention.


Miscellaneous abilities at level 20, including the changes you claim that you intend to make already, and the changes I made that I didn't mention, because this is an edited post.

unpassable regeneration 10 which works only if you give up all other actions in the round
10 bonus fighter feats
+10 enhancement to all saving throws
+10 enhancement to AC
+10 enhancement to attack and damage rolls
+5 deflection to AC
perpetual endure elements
+8/+6/+4/+2 enhancement bonuses to ability scores
+4 natural armor
fly for 20 minutes
negate the need for sleep
perpetual haste
are mind blanked (you also learn that mind blank has protected you and give false information)
perpetual true seeing out to unlimited range
gain overland flight for 20 hours
no longer need to breathe
make full attacks better than everyone else Actually, I cribbed this from the Tome series, and Frank & K's theory that no one in the entire game should ever take a more than -5 penalty for iterative attacks. A -10 or -15 is right off the RNG.
immunity to energy drain, level drain, and ability drain
can benefit from True Resurrection at will (1 hour after death) unless killed by a nonmagical weapon
can use True Resurrection at will (if you witness demise) with a 1 hour delay
never die of old age
perpetual mind blank which sort of overrides Mind Shielding, as noted above
attacks count as magical
attacks count as epic



The total accumulation of these abilities...
1. With other classes, there are times when a buff hasn't been cast, its duration runs out, it is dispelled, or the character walks into an antimagic zone. The perpetual extraordinary abilities of the Witch Hunter do not have these problems.
Clearly you've never heard of Persist Spell, or even Extend Spell if the wizard is on the offensive. Buffs only need to be up for one round at high levels. AMF is usable only by high-level magi, so it doesn't often count.
Fun fact: Extended Magic Circle against Evil lasts more than 24 hours cast by a 20 Wizard or 20 Cleric.

2. When a fighter or barbarian is buffed, it takes several rounds and someone (the caster) is using up resources. The Witch hunter requires no warm up and takes no resources.
When a fighter or barbarian is buffed, the wizard or cleric doing it is wasting resources that he should be spending either buffing himself or wiping the encounter completely. This is a problem with how weak Core is, however. Again I refer you to Persist Spell & Extend Spell, above.

3. You are effectively trying to match the power of an average witch hunter to that of another class that has already recieved magical buffs from another character. As such, A level 20 Witch Hunter is always superior to a level 20 noncaster if no casters are nearby. This is not good balance.
If no casters are nearby at level 20, then the party is doing something horribly wrong and/or the world isn't magical enough to have spawned Witch Killers. Also, consider Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader, who are noncasters with powers the Witch Killer literally cannot replicate.


Item #2: Invincible against non-casters
I admit that I was slightly incorrect. There are a few possible ways for a character without magic to kill a Witch Hunter.
1. They can use trollbane and hope that the witch hunter rolls natural 1s.
This isn't as necessary anymore as Witch Killer only regens when 'meditating' and giving up all other actions.

2. They can use poison and hope that the witch hunter rolls low on their saving throws (no immunity to ability damage).
Fine, but they could just hit the newly nerfed WK with a big sword. And if it wasn't on fire, he wouldn't even come back.

3. They can use a vorpal weapon/mask of the skull.
Really? Not familiar with the latter.

4. Although not actually "killing", per say, you can put the Witch Hunter in conditions that harm the Witch Hunter faster than it heals (such as lava), keeping it unconscious indefinitely.
You mean you run 20th-level campaigns and don't make your BBEGs so badass that the party has to resort to this level of shenanigans anyway?
Also, it wouldn't work because WK can turn off his regeneration now (and in fact has to concentrate to turn it on so could just die. Maybe I'll change his weaksauce weakness to include "any weapon or unarmed strike that has no magical abilities other than an enhancement bonus, or any other nonmagical effect".


In short, it is possible for noncasters to defeat the Witch Hunter. It isn't good, however, that the number of ways can be counted on one hand.
Unfortunately, I can't think of any way for noncasters to stop the inevitable revivial of a level 17+ Witch Hunter. Also not good.
I added an achilles' heel. They need to use a weapon that doesn't have any magic other than an enhancement bonus. Because apparently nonmagic is the bane of antimagic or something.


Item #3: At Will True Ressurection
As I have stated at the beginning of this post, it is safe to assume that a 20th level character won't have more than 400,000 gp.
Unless it is urgent that he has more than 400,000 GP. If you're a fairly good DM and they aren't morons, you will not bring them to that point.


Now, consider that at least 3/4 of this is likely to be tied up in preexisting equipment (that seems conservative), meaning that 100,000 gp (5 metric tons of gold) are left in the form of coins, gems, and similar commodities.
And this is part of the rationale for the Wish Economy, where gold cannot buy anything worth more than 15000GP because that's what you can Wish for.


Out of this reserve, the 25,000 gp needed for True resurrection is 25%.
In short, a 4-person 20th level party can afford 16 True Resurrections in total.
What kind of 4-person 20th level party needs 16 True Resurrections in a whole campaign?


Never Die grants you a huge boon when you get it, considering that at 17th levle, that same 25,000 gp will be a larger proportion of your free gold.
However, because of Abhor the Witch, the vast majority of your WBL at L20 is totally worthless to you because you can't use magic items. I guess you could twink out on adamantine everything, but other than that there's really not much use for all that coinage. Not for nothing was VoP my starting point for the improved body bonuses.


I believe that this is going a bit too far. Furthermore, it is difficult (but, as discussed, not impossible) to stop this ability.
Especially now I nerfed the regeneration and threw noncasters a bone.


Comparing this ability to the epic spell contingent resurrection, I am a bit disturbed.
In the epic spell's favor:
It allows you to get up immediately and continue a fight.

In Never Die's favor:

You get it far earlier than epic spells
You need not spend a feat (for epic spellcaster)
You do not need to waste time casting it on yourself
You do not spend time, money, or XP researching a spell
There is no chance of failure that contingent resurrection does not already possess (other than barghests)
It teleports you to "a safe place".

Continuing a fight is very, very strong so I'm going to say that these abilities are about equally powerful. A 17th level class feature should not be equal in power to an epic level spell, even if they are known for being a bit weak.
I... really don't care about the Epic-Level Handbook when determining balance. A decent game stops at 20, where the game is merely broken in half, not atomised.


When we get into Gift of Life, things get worse.
As I have said, each of those crystals cost 25% of the available money that a 20th level party possesses. If you witness your entire party die and are then killed yourself, that should rightfully be a TPK.
No. Nothing should ever rightfully be a TPK by RAW. By RAI, nothing should ever be a TPK at all, rightfully or not, unless the players are OK with it and warned beforehand.


With gift of life/never die, however, you are revived and you don't pay the price that you should (all loose money that one player possesses).
What else are you doing with that money anyway? You have no magic items. Also, a wizard can and will chain-gate efreeti if his options are reduced to that to bring the party back up and running.
Also, you lose your adamantine bling and have to fight to get it back.


Gift of Life makes TPKs nearly impossible.
That's a good thing.


As has been stated, there are a few ways to stop someone killed from getting back up. Unless your party faces a medusa that insists on turning everyone to stone or that insists on starting with the Witch Hunter, everyone is safe.
In a normal party, a medusa would always start with the wizard or the cleric, then do whichever one is left, then laugh as the melee fighters suck. This is a problem with the game, however.


Normally, True Ressurection has a 10 minute casting time. In this way, you can't afford to revive someone until the battle is over. Gift of Life ignores this, ensuring that the party comes back even if you lose the battle completely. This should not happen (at least before high epic levels).
Point, but as I said, avoiding TPKs is a Good Thing. Not just for the munchkins, but for the game as a whole. I might change it to 10 minutes of prayer within 1 day of their death, though, so that TPKs are possible by the laws of physics.

Also, LABOOH will as of my next edit give a 12-hour return time not a 1-hour one, to make timed missions a little easier. I mean, no question about it, you're running timed missions if you have a 20 Wizard (sorry, 5 Wizard/15 Broken PrC Combo) in the party.

Fizban
2009-09-26, 07:56 AM
While I like some of the ideas in this class, I have to say it's quite absurd and I don't know how anyone can take it seriously. You've "balanced" it against optimized casters, but the whole reason optimized casters win is because they dredged up how to win out of a plethora of options: their actual base class does not automatically win anything without work. Just a glance at the abilities gained on level up makes it obvious that no other class could compete with it (even with the weakness of not having magic items) without specifically targetting all of it's weaknesses, and the only one that can do that is surprise, the wizard. You say you left the line of sight requirement so that wizards still have some kind of chance, but the whole point of the class is to nullify every chance they have, it's self-defeating. So they need line of sight, but have true seeing so they can see through magic to get it? No problem, just stay out of the 120' range of true seeing. So you're already within 120'? Wizard brought potions and scrolls just in case. As others have said you're trying to win an arms race that can't be won.

The part that really annoys me is how it can't play in a normal game. The only thing it's good for is one specific niche: trying to counter optimized wizards. In a casual game it is completely invincible against any caster and eventually any character period because it can only be defeated by an optimized wizard. In an optimized game it still loses to the wizard. It doesn't work.

Now, here's my suggestion. Take a high HD, low skill, medium BAB base. Give it a "counterspell slot" progression through 9th maxing out at maybe 3 per level. Have it start as a normal readied action, then cost a move action to ready, then an immediate action and the standard of you next turn, immediate and move, immediate, and then free once per turn. Have some feats that improve it at higher levels so that people facing quickened spells and arcane spellsurge have ways to fight back. Toss in a few bonus feats for combat and witch killer feats. I like the ideas above for letting you dispel things on touch, I'd give an automatic dispel on one spell at level for level and allow them to do area dispel magic later, gaining antimagic field for a 6th level slot around 12th. Spell resistance is also good, so keep that too. It's golden ability would probably be negating spells that have already hit him as a free action without slowing down. I'd also let it take feats that let you sacrifice a spell slot to activate them, like arcane strike and maybe even draconic breath.

Now we have a class that can lock down a spellcaster's casting of spells while still taking actions against them, but without negating them entirely with no hope outside crazy optimization. He can escape most harmful spells by expending his counter slots, but he can still be hit indirectly or by attrition (only 3 at each level when each caster usually has at least 4 and sometimes 5 or 6). This means that instead of expending 1/4 your resources to beat him, you're likely to spend 1/2 or 3/4, which sounds about right for being specifically trained to kill you. He is good against casters and monsters with spell-like abilities, decent in a fight against non-magic foes, and doesn't ignore the normal loot system. It has a niche in a normal game, with some class ability improving feats and proper items could be optimized far past it's base abilities without being a beast right out of the box. It will still not beat a ridiculously optimized wizard, and that's okay: it's one of the broken things about 3.x, every system has something.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-26, 08:48 AM
Just a glance at the abilities gained on level up makes it obvious that no other class could compete with it (even with the weakness of not having magic items) without specifically targetting all of it's weaknesses, and the only one that can do that is surprise, the wizard.
A Witch Killer still needs a rogue for skillmonkey work, and all he can do against nonspellcasters is direct damage. Some of the class abilities - particularly Run on the Air, Walk on the Air, and Improved Full Attack - are things that I would give to literally all party members of all classes, even single-class commoners, at the same character level that a single-class Witch Killer gets them.


You say you left the line of sight requirement so that wizards still have some kind of chance, but the whole point of the class is to nullify every chance they have, it's self-defeating.
The whole point of the class is, first to defeat ridiculously broken wizards, second to make direct physical damage matter again.


So they need line of sight, but have true seeing so they can see through magic to get it? No problem, just stay out of the 120' range of true seeing.

Behold the Witch (Ex): At 9th level, a witch killer can no longer be fooled by magical tricks. She gains the benefits of true seeing all the time, except that the range of her true seeing is infinite.
Emphasis mine. Please read the class before you critique.


So you're already within 120'? Wizard brought potions and scrolls just in case.
20 Witch Killer wins initiative, Rapid Shoots with (for laughs' sake) a hand crossbow. Full attack including Improved Body is +28/+28/+23/+23/+23, and each shot does 1d4 normal + 10d6 Smite Witch. And your Crafted Contingent Greater Teleport is not only dispelled but directly causes you to either suffer 5d6 further irresistible damage or just die outright or be banished for a year and a day.


The part that really annoys me is how it can't play in a normal game. The only thing it's good for is one specific niche: trying to counter optimized wizards. In a casual game it is completely invincible against any caster and eventually any character period because it can only be defeated by an optimized wizard. In an optimized game it still loses to the wizard. It doesn't work.
Invincible? You're forgetting good, honest, direct damage, the only thing WotC playtested as a means of killing. WK can (now) only regen outside of a fight after all.

boomwolf
2009-09-26, 10:00 AM
I have a slight problem with this guy.

As good as he is in killing spellcasters (compared to other melee)
He also beats every melee class in a face-to-face combat.

So practically, you didn't make a specialized anti caster, you made an uber non-caster, with bonus anti-caster abilities.

It just gets SO many free bonuses, +10 to hit? +19 total to AC, +8/+6/+4/+2 to ability scores, fast healing and bonus damae on any attack, compleated with improved full attack, passive haste and FoM, never sleep so you can't be killed unalert, don't need to breath, seems to revive himself with the only way to truly kill him being underpowered and that's BEFORE optimization, or equipment, comes into play.

I would NEVER allow one under the courrent power level into my game. as without optimization it beats everything, and with optimization only all-powerful casters stand a chance. (and that level of optimizations causes me to rain hell on people.)

Myou
2009-09-26, 10:09 AM
Eww. This is horribly broken. And I only read the first ability.

You get to counter every spell anyone casts all day long. :smallyuk:

Worira
2009-09-26, 10:23 AM
The class is based around assumptions that are simply not accurate in actual gameplay, and even if they were, the class would still be obscenely overpowered.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-26, 10:48 AM
All right, first things first: YES this class is, and should be, only suitable for ridiculously twinked games where Tippy wizards break the setting and this level of crazy is required for a party of nominal non-spellcasters to stand a chance, or for Tippy wizards to truly have anything to fear. Any questions?

If it's any comfort, my original intent was for Improved Body to be every 3 levels, not every 2 levels. Detailed and constructive criticism please, like Realms did. Not "ZOMG this is broken".

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-26, 11:46 AM
Hey, care to duel your new Mage Killer vs an optimised wizard or sorceror of mine?

Omegonthesane
2009-09-26, 12:10 PM
Sure. For extra cheese let's make it L20 each, full WBL, and everyone rolled straight 18s on their stats for no adequately explained reason. This dude could do with the playtesting.

And possibly with fewer "I Win VS Caster" slots, at least until high levels. And even then, Wizard can't have 5 Time Stops prepared and be sane, can he?

Milskidasith
2009-09-26, 12:12 PM
All right, first things first: YES this class is, and should be, only suitable for ridiculously twinked games where Tippy wizards break the setting and this level of crazy is required for a party of nominal non-spellcasters to stand a chance, or for Tippy wizards to truly have anything to fear. Any questions?

If it's any comfort, my original intent was for Improved Body to be every 3 levels, not every 2 levels. Detailed and constructive criticism please, like Realms did. Not "ZOMG this is broken".

Ok, here's my criticism.

It can counter any spellcaster entirely as a free action, and has the best spellcasting progression possible. Boom, it beats half the classes in the game. As an anti spellcaster... that's good, I'll admit. Right there is where I'd stop; you'd have a nice triangle of "Melee > Witch Killer > Magic > Melee."

Then you give him full BAB with improved full attacks, great saves, good skills, good proficiencies, and good saves on the two that count. Ok... getting overpowered now, but hey, it's not too bad, right? Fighters can still out bonus feat them, and warblades and barbarians get other nifty abilities... wait...

He gets bonus feats as a fighter, an absurd number of free action at will buffs that match what a typical high level cleric and wizard could do for you, gets boosts to attack and saves more than what magic could get for you, etc. So he's a fighter with better attacks who can shut down any mage instantly and has buffs that put him on par with what a typical wizard would have. Plus, his abilities even let him destroy partial casters, like paladins (like they didn't have enough problems) because he gets an at will smite....

Oh, and everything is EX, so you can't even rely on your fighters getting an item of AMF to stop him! What's the point of a guy with abilities that beats fighters and wizards, who has better stats than either of them, who has all Ex abilities so you can't even stop him with items, and... ugh, this is terrible. At least you could *maybe* get rid of all his counterspelling slots with at will free action stuff.

Oh, he still loses to psionics. So you didn't even succeed at fully negating caster types.

Basically, the problem is that everything is a free action, he's got nearly unlimited uses of what isn't a free action, and everything is EX. And he has no ability score dependancy.

Make his abilities have SOME kind of limit; less counterspelling slots than non specialized wizards get (honestly, if he can stop a wizard for 5 rounds he's doing better than most), only able to activate his numerous abilities to deal extra damage Cha mod times per day, anything that makes it so he can't do everything that every other class can do at will when those classes get maybe two or three uses per day.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-26, 12:20 PM
Ok, here's my criticism.

It can counter any spellcaster entirely as a free action, and has the best spellcasting progression possible. Boom, it beats half the classes in the game. As an anti spellcaster... that's good, I'll admit. Right there is where I'd stop; you'd have a nice triangle of "Melee > Witch Killer > Magic > Melee."

Then you give him full BAB with improved full attacks, great saves, good skills, good proficiencies, and good saves on the two that count. Ok... getting overpowered now, but hey, it's not too bad, right? Fighters can still out bonus feat them, and warblades and barbarians get other nifty abilities... wait...

He gets bonus feats as a fighter, an absurd number of free action at will buffs that match what a typical high level cleric and wizard could do for you, gets boosts to attack and saves more than what magic could get for you, etc. So he's a fighter with better attacks who can shut down any mage instantly and has buffs that put him on par with what a typical wizard would have. Plus, his abilities even let him destroy partial casters, like paladins (like they didn't have enough problems) because he gets an at will smite....

Oh, and everything is EX, so you can't even rely on your fighters getting an item of AMF to stop him! What's the point of a guy with abilities that beats fighters and wizards, who has better stats than either of them, who has all Ex abilities so you can't even stop him with items, and... ugh, this is terrible. At least you could *maybe* get rid of all his counterspelling slots with at will free action stuff.

Oh, he still loses to psionics. So you didn't even succeed at fully negating caster types.

Basically, the problem is that everything is a free action, he's got nearly unlimited uses of what isn't a free action, and everything is EX. And he has no ability score dependancy.

Make his abilities have SOME kind of limit; less counterspelling slots than non specialized wizards get (honestly, if he can stop a wizard for 5 rounds he's doing better than most), only able to activate his numerous abilities to deal extra damage Cha mod times per day, anything that makes it so he can't do everything that every other class can do at will when those classes get maybe two or three uses per day.

I was already concerned about the number of dispels per spell level; off to cut it to cap out at Unspecialised Wizard level casting, because no one plays unspecialised wizards in the kind of game teh Witch Killer is designed for.

Psionics isn't flat-out broken, although I should go back and make damn sure his SR applies against psionics.

His eleventy billion silly buffs are to make up for his not being a caster and not even benefitting from a caster. I could probably remove them all if I took out Abhor the Witch. So for simplicity's sake, that's what I'll do. Although he still gets Run/Walk on the Air as already listed, and a boosted Proselytise that only dismisses buffs that come from spells.

Also, Fighter is weak, do not ever use it as a baseline for balancing anything ever in a high-powered campaign.

Milskidasith
2009-09-26, 12:26 PM
No, what you do is *don't* let him take buffs, and *don't* give him his ability increases and over epic level free bonuses to attack, saves, armor, etc. Why?

Because then you have a nice triangle of balance. Think about it. He loses to melee types, and beats casters. If you let him get buffed... he outmelees melee classes still, and still destroys casters instantly. And he can still smite even gishes or paladins at will for 10d6 (which is more than a paladin will ever get.)

So get rid of abhor the witch and EVERYTHING that isn't directly related to countering spellcasters ability to cast spells (no smite, either.)

EDIT: Also, when I said fighter, I meant "generic melee type guy;" this guy's even better than a warblade at melee, not to mention the fact he can destroy the warblade's magic gear.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-26, 12:46 PM
No, what you do is *don't* let him take buffs, and *don't* give him his ability increases and over epic level free bonuses to attack, saves, armor, etc.
In other words, make him a gimp. You absolutely have to have at least a +5 weapon by 20th level if you're a melee dude.


Because then you have a nice triangle of balance. Think about it. He loses to melee types, and beats casters.
Hm... nope, that's not a good balance theory, because this isn't a wargame of Fighter VS WK VS Caster.


If you let him get buffed... he outmelees melee classes still, and still destroys casters instantly. And he can still smite even gishes or paladins at will for 10d6 (which is more than a paladin will ever get.)
Noted, but it's only 10d4 as of this post, and gishes now get a save, and PHB Paladins aren't hardcore enough for a game with optimised wizards.

[
So get rid of abhor the witch and EVERYTHING that isn't directly related to countering spellcasters ability to cast spells (no smite, either.)
Not getting rid of Smite, you need that kind of extra damage bullcrap to keep up with the monsters at high levels never mind the players.


EDIT: Also, when I said fighter, I meant "generic melee type guy;" this guy's even better than a warblade at melee, not to mention the fact he can destroy the warblade's magic gear.
In what respect is he even better than a warblade without his eleventy billion direct statistical buffs that I just removed? Mind Blank is totally sweet, but it only helps against spellcasters. Haste would do it though I guess.

Baron Corm
2009-09-26, 12:52 PM
Detailed and constructive criticism please, like Realms did. Not "ZOMG this is broken".

The class is uninteresting and flavorless, and has way too many class features. Try to make only a few which do the job of all of the ones you have, or else give them a system of spells/special abilities/whatever in a more organized form. Then add flavor text!

Omegonthesane
2009-09-26, 01:04 PM
The class is uninteresting and flavorless, and has way too many class features. Try to make only a few which do the job of all of the ones you have, or else give them a system of spells/special abilities/whatever in a more organized form. Then add flavor text!
He's balanced against [Tome] classes, Wizards, and Sorcerers. This guy is meant to be high Tier 3, maybe even Tier 2. This guy is meant to be the antithesis of the idea that magic should pwn all things, so of course he's amazingly powerful.

Also, since you clearly think flavour can bring down a mechanically decent class, I'd guess you want class features tied into the flavour too. I thus link you to the Elothar Warrior of Bladereach (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Elothar_Warrior_of_Bladereach_(DnD_Prestige_Class) ) prestige class.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-26, 01:09 PM
How much Uber do you want my wizard/sorceror to be in the playtesting?

Lappy9000
2009-09-26, 01:12 PM
He's balanced against [Tome] classes, Wizards, and Sorcerers. This guy is meant to be high Tier 3, maybe even Tier 2. This guy is meant to be the antithesis of the idea that magic should pwn all things, so of course he's amazingly powerful.Mmm, well I still think you should lessen the amount of abilities that the Witch Killer gets, 'cause they really get a metric ton-load of class powers. However, I also stick by my belief that the class is founded on a flawed premise; making an uber anti-caster to fight the uber caster isn't gonna solve anything (or make anyone think that this will beat a cheesy wizard). Such a problem needs to be resolved between the players and DM.

Also, thanks for fixing the proficiencies and including hit dice.

Milskidasith
2009-09-26, 01:25 PM
Omego, you are talking past me. You seem to ignore my basic point: There is no reason for him to be able to be 100% guaranteed to stop spellcasters, and give him any ability to compete with melee classes. Yes, it isn't a wargame. So? Making the guy competitive against spellcasters is more than enough to consider him "balanced." He doesn't need to be able to do anything else. The point of the class is to kill wizards and sorcerers, not to kill wizards and sorcerers while having EX abilities that give him constant epic or near epic level buffs while allowing him to disjoin the items of melee characters at will, never die for good, and have a pretty massive amount of fast healing.

The whole premise of an anti caster is flawed, and the only way the premise even makes sense is if anti casters are reasonably easy to cut down in melee combat and are very good against spellcasters. Your version is "God against spellcasters (who don't just kill you with Love's Pain or some other method of killing without LoS), and can only lose to a melee character if he doesn't use his ability to get rid of all their buffs and magic items, permanently."

Omegonthesane
2009-09-26, 01:59 PM
Milskidasith, sorry for not being good at articulating this fact, but I've also gone back and ripped out a lot of the controversial superpowers that were making the Witch Killer so ridiculous.

Though, about the "knocks out all buffs" thing... Are you talking about Proselytise? Because if you haven't killed the newly nerfed WK in three full rounds of him standing still and doing absolutely nothing, and you then blow a Will save that's really not that hard at 20th level, you probably deserve to lose the fight.

Milskidasith
2009-09-26, 02:05 PM
Yes, there's that, but with the new nerfs it's unlikely you could get it off. There's still the fact that it was, before the nerfs, completely able to stop any of your melee characters from being buffed or activating any of their items, and had stats better than them before buffs.

This still doesn't stop psionics, by the way. Go Psionics!

Omegonthesane
2009-09-26, 02:40 PM
Yes, there's that, but with the new nerfs it's unlikely you could get it off. There's still the fact that it was, before the nerfs, completely able to stop any of your melee characters from being buffed or activating any of their items, and had stats better than them before buffs.

This still doesn't stop psionics, by the way. Go Psionics!

Psionics has to fear SR 10 + character level, giving a certain subset of powers about a 50% failure rate unless you have ways around it. Which you probably do, but psions aren't really all that broken.

Realms of Chaos
2009-09-26, 03:27 PM
The problem with this class as it stands now is that in the Tippyverse, there are occasionally fights against nonmagical enemies. Even if your enemy is a twinked out guild of mages, they likely have some oozes trapped in jars somewhere, a charmed hill giant bodyguard, or an army of undead owned by some necromancer. This class is better equipped at fighting than other nonmagical classes so it will likely be a better team player than any barbarian/fighter/ranger/crusader/warblade/etc.

I was unaware that the only class choices existing in the tippyverse were psionics and full casters.

Glimbur
2009-09-26, 05:04 PM
A caster could still win. Tower Shield to block Line of Effect*, Quickened Stilled something to get a better fly speed than Fly, then use maneuverability and overabundance of spell slots/scrolls/wands/etc to wear down the Counterspelling. HP damage could be an issue, so have Fast Healing. Deathward armor and shield; or Soulfire shield and stab yourself with a Binding weapon to prevent Dismissal or Insta-gib until you burn through Counterspell slots.

*This is slightly iffy, because Tower Shields don't block LoE for spells... but the Counterspelling isn't a spell.

The other way a spellcaster could win would be to cheat via sending in hordes of undead, bound critters, and anything else he can Mindrape/convince into attacking the Witch Killer.

The fact that it takes all this work and weird magic items for the wizard to have a significant chance suggests that this class is too powerful.

Milskidasith
2009-09-26, 06:08 PM
Hmm... you could mindrape somebody into having an absurd obsession with all witch killers, then Love's Pain him until every Witch Killer died of unsavable damage. Still, with their free True Ressurections, it wouldn't help much (unless that was ditched, which it should be), but you could easily get a few wizards to spend their off days doing that to prevent annoying Witch Killer distractions.

Catch
2009-09-26, 06:18 PM
I was unaware that the only class choices existing in the tippyverse were psionics and full casters.

Believe it. Additionally, all full casters are 20th level, with a Bag o' Holding packed with ever item or scroll they could ever need.

So, balanced against that standard, this class doesn't come up too short. But in a logical world, where most people never see their second class level, you might as well give the Witch Hunter a portfolio and his own temple.

Fizban
2009-09-26, 06:35 PM
A Witch Killer still needs a rogue for skillmonkey work, and all he can do against nonspellcasters is direct damage. Some of the class abilities - particularly Run on the Air, Walk on the Air, and Improved Full Attack - are things that I would give to literally all party members of all classes, even single-class commoners, at the same character level that a single-class Witch Killer gets them.
In an over optimized game, you don't use skills, you use spells, so you don't need a skillmonkey. Just because you'd give everyone the improved attack progression and free flight doesn't mean that they have them, if you're balancing it with that houserule in mind then you'd better say it upfront rather than making it an exclusive class feature.

The whole point of the class is, first to defeat ridiculously broken wizards, second to make direct physical damage matter again.
It can't beat a ridiculously broken wizard, and if there's such a wizard in the party there's nothing it can do to make damage better unless he decides to pvp.

Emphasis mine. Please read the class before you critique.
Okay, so I assumed it's true seeing would follow the normal rules, I guess that was wrong. So use a smokestick instead.


20 Witch Killer wins initiative, Rapid Shoots with (for laughs' sake) a hand crossbow. Full attack including Improved Body is +28/+28/+23/+23/+23, and each shot does 1d4 normal + 10d6 Smite Witch. And your Crafted Contingent Greater Teleport is not only dispelled but directly causes you to either suffer 5d6 further irresistible damage or just die outright or be banished for a year and a day.
How exactly does the witch killer win initiative automatically? See also: above smokestick. If you need something contingent, use a flask of smoke from Oriental Adventures and rig up something to drop it if you get shot.


Invincible? You're forgetting good, honest, direct damage, the only thing WotC playtested as a means of killing. WK can (now) only regen outside of a fight after all.
And the whole automatic free resurrections forever and ever doesn't count as invincible? Once again, just because you think the whole party should have it doesn't make an individual class that has it not broken.

deuxhero
2009-09-26, 09:41 PM
How do psionics work with this class?

Baron Corm
2009-09-26, 10:12 PM
He's balanced against [Tome] classes, Wizards, and Sorcerers. This guy is meant to be high Tier 3, maybe even Tier 2. This guy is meant to be the antithesis of the idea that magic should pwn all things, so of course he's amazingly powerful.

Also, since you clearly think flavour can bring down a mechanically decent class, I'd guess you want class features tied into the flavour too. I thus link you to the Elothar Warrior of Bladereach (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Elothar_Warrior_of_Bladereach_(DnD_Prestige_Class) ) prestige class.

No idea what the Elothar Warrior has to do with this. Anyway, I'm not even talking about balance. I'm saying that your class is uninteresting and complicated. It just doesn't really fit the standards of existing base classes, balance aside.

The witch killer needs a reason and source for each of his abilities, which tie into an overall theme. For example, clerics get Turn/Rebuke Undead because they are granted power from their deity which channels their convictions forth. Fighters get bonus feats because they dedicate themselves to the art of fighting. The witch killer gets (Ex) counterspelling and can never die because...?

None of this has to be made if all your players care about is optimization. However, if you plan on using it in a real game ever, instead of just a dungeon crawl or PvP zone, it's something you should do.

Further, you have more than 20 unique abilities in 20 levels. Balance aside, this is just cluttered and doesn't make for a good class. So, like I said, it would be nice if you either rolled some of the abilities into one more elegantly, or made a list of "special abilities" that they could choose from, like a rogue.

Mad Wizard
2009-09-26, 11:29 PM
Alright, I'm not going to go into my thoughts on the power level of the class itself, because it's too complicated a topic and I'm not really interested enough to type them all out. I will, however, say that I think this should be a prestige class, not a base class. The premise of the class is way too focused and specialized, in my opinion, to be a base class. Base classes are supposed to represent what your character is in general: this class dictates exactly what your character's about. That sounds much more like a prestige class to me. Personally, I would remove some of its abilities, pack what's left into 10 levels, and make it a PrC, because honestly, 3.5 could use a mage-hunter PrC that doesn't suck.

Realms of Chaos
2009-09-27, 02:49 AM
Wow, I just checked out the class again and it seems completely balanced. :smalleek:

It's still a bit strong as it can now benefit from magic but it seems relatively okay now.

One thing that bugs me is how you at one point claim that the goal of this class is to make direct damage a real force. Even when this class was at its most powerful, however, it failed to do this.
It did allow you to kill an enemy wizard with direct damage.
It did not make your attacks better at hurting your enemy than an allied wizard, however. The only real bonuses you gave in that department were a better full attack and a +13 bonus to attack and damage. That hardly overcomes the high damage that wizards can dish out and isn't at all better than save-or-die/suck spells.
Unless you were suggesting that this class counter its own allies abilities to hog the spotlight, it wasn't going to make damage matter.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-27, 03:23 AM
@RoC...Yeah, I dunno what I was smoking when I came out with "make direct damage matter again". That was probably an excuse for when WK was way more powerful than it currently is, and really was immune to just about anything but bashing.

@MadWizard No, it doesn't have to be non-specific to be a base class. Not when we have such a ridiculous number of base classes already. In fact, specific is better than general for balance purposes - Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necromancer are far less abusable than Sorcerer or Wizard, for example.

Realms of Chaos
2009-09-27, 03:57 AM
Although I should've suggested it awhile ago, here is a link to a very similar class that I created.

The Abolisher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117233)

Unlike the Witch Hunter, I didn't bother with moves that actually hurt spellcasters or with giving a few dozen immunities.
Instead, I simply turned magic off. Even instantaneous effects are reversed by 20th level, meaning that there is nothing that anybody in the tipyverse can do about it.

Be sure to read the bonus feats as they play as big a role with the abolisher as natural spell plays with druid (whom my witch hunter brutally kills with the right feats).

Edit: The abolisher actually does have a touch attack that harms casters. That was my bad.

Milskidasith
2009-09-27, 08:03 AM
The abolisher... really sucks. It gets it's spells late, and besides being a walking disjunction, it really doesn't have anything going for it. It still doesn't actually keep a wizard from being invincible, either, it's just a minor annoyance that can't be killed. Also, stopping instantaneous effects shouldn't be possible, because instantaneous effects aren't even magical.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-09-27, 01:49 PM
I just realized. You could take the feats that let you pick up Maneuvers, and then take Scorching Siroco (Tactical Feat from Tome of Battle.) Then you could use Burn the Witch to light the Caster on Fire.

Of course, lighting people on fire does barely any damage, but it would still be damn cool.

Realms of Chaos
2009-09-27, 03:33 PM
Milskidasith It isn't an optimized solution but it doesn't suck. It catches up with a mage's highest spell levels by 20th level and has dampening surge in the meantime (using dampening surge when you have 9th level spells grants you immunity to 10th level spells, the effective level of an epic spell, by the way). Undo Augmentation and Inescapable force a confrontation with a wizard if you can get close to it (which is hard but not impossible as even wizards in the tippyverse walk sometimes, albiet while polymorphed into titans). The right feats can stop vestiges, truenaming, psionics, wildshape, or even celerity and quickened spells.