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NotMe
2009-09-25, 08:34 AM
In a (D&D 3.5) campaign world I'm running there is an organisation of wizards with a number of high level (15-20) wizard members, as well as many more in the mid levels.

I am looking for an in-game plausible opponent to these to explain (other than through internal divisions, interest, or morality) why these wizards do not have more political power, and I need to find another group that is able to keep these in check, without themselves excercising unlimited power. These opponents need to:
- be mortal (preferable one or more of the normal player races)
- not be full arcane casters in their own right
- be a threat to wizards of similar level to themselves
- be able to operate quietly (so the whole region isn't overly aware of their existence)

I know that I could just handwave the whole problem away (they don't have more power because they just don't, ok?), but neither I or my players find this particularly satisfying.

Within the campaign world all teleports are limited to line of sight, there is no craft contingent and abilities to summon outsiders are severely limited. Pretty much anything non-campaign specific and published 3.5 is ok.

Anyone have any suggestions for this rival organisation? Thanks.

Daefos
2009-09-25, 08:48 AM
Well, there's always the old "they're too busy researching spells/enjoying private hobbies/fighting each other to gain political power, but I guess that's not what you're going for.

Perhaps a group of assassins that specializes in bypassing magical protections and traps? Wizards are human(ish) after all, and all the high level spell slots in the world won't help you if someone slits your throat in your sleep.

daggaz
2009-09-25, 08:52 AM
Why not have politics be run by a powerful guild of rogues. They use their personal influence (much better at diplomacy and face-checks than wizards) to keep a handle on the human side of the network. As well, they have some kind of magic based power, be it a potential threat to the wizards, or something that they just use to gain a significant advantage, which they protect with UMD and plenty of anti-divination spells, along side the good old "come close and we will stab you in the back from the darkness" kinda thing, as well as the fact that the wizards are in a situation where they absolutely do not know who is implicated in the guilds ring, and thus must operate completely on their own.

Choco
2009-09-25, 08:54 AM
How bout an organization of high level clerics? Perhaps the local church is secretly trying to rid the world of those heretic wizards, or perhaps just a small fraction of the clergy is doing it secretly. They got the influence/charisma to probably turn entire nations against the wizards.

Seatbelt
2009-09-25, 08:54 AM
You could just try good old government. Set up institutions where the wizards are theoretically checked by some other locus of political power. The wizards obey it because thats just the way its always been done despite the arcane power wielded.



Then have someone exploit it

Fluffles
2009-09-25, 08:59 AM
Lesser demons/devils?

Or a Platoon of high level Sword Sages :)

subject42
2009-09-25, 09:00 AM
I've run into a similar problem and I turned to history to explain the issue. When any "wizarding organization" starts out they are generally low level and there are generally a small number of them relative to the surrounding population. Provided that the local governing entity can get an early drop on the wizards, they can get leverage early on and refuse to let off the pressure.

In my campaign, the local monarch stormed the then-young Wizard College and took hostage at least one family member from each wizard and put them into stasis. He then stated that any untoward action by the wizards would result in the deaths of their loved-ones.

Time passed in the world and the monarchy became less barbaric as their governing situation became more secure. Over hundreds of years the practice evolved to where no child could be apprenticed to the wizards without a sibling being sent to the palace, where they became indentured to the guard as something not unlike a Janissary. The familial bond kept both groups under control.

It essentially made prepared arcane casters an arm of the government and guaranteed that all wizards had a well trained fighter that was interested in keeping the monsters off of them when they went afield.

Zephyros
2009-09-25, 09:03 AM
The most plausible answer to that (powerwise) would be an elite force of Clerics that worship a God that hates all things arcane (give him the Pride domain for more awesomesauce, Protection for Antimagic Field and Inquisition just to be thematically appropriate :smallbiggrin:). This Witch Hunter Order compromises mainly of Clerics, though some of its members can be Crusaders, and its elite guard a mix of Ruby Knight Vindicators :smallcool:

Those Wizards speak of their provocative and careless colleagues that got divinely impaled from the shadows, in fear and awe.

Valaqil
2009-09-25, 09:16 AM
I think Daefos' answer probably covers it in most cases.

Another answer not given yet: Perhaps there is a group of Mage-Killers somewhere who are trying to keep that group from becoming too strong? Have them be the "wetworks" team for one of the local organizations that also wants power. Any time the Wizarding group starts to become too powerful, an "accident" happens, or maybe someone is framed, and the head of the wizard's group is killed. Political in-fighting and struggles occur, the wizards have to take a while to regroup, stablize, and begin their quest for power anew.

(I know Mage Killer is from Magic of Faerun, but there may be other classes that work as well. Even just a prepared Assassin could do it.)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-25, 09:28 AM
I am looking for an in-game plausible opponent to these to explain (other than through internal divisions, interest, or morality) why these wizards do not have more political power
What does the man who can found his own private plane of existance care about the political squabblings of lesser men?

jiriku
2009-09-25, 09:37 AM
Political and financial support from the government. The government subsidies their wizardly research and funds the construction of their constructs and towers and such. It also smooths over any fear or hysteria from the populace over the occasional magical accidents or disasters that might cause people to break out the torches and pitchforks.

Without the support of the government, the wizardly guild would be dramatically inconvenienced. It's far more convenient for them to play by the rules and enjoy the carrot provided by the government.

Anyhow, if they were to oppose the government and overthrow it, they'd have to become politicians themselves and run the country. As you can see from our own politics, that's a full-time job. Doesn't leave time for magical study. The wizards gain far more from living within the rules of the local power center than they would gain from trying to become the local power center.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-25, 09:40 AM
Political and financial support from the government. The government subsidies their wizardly research and funds the construction of their constructs and towers and such. It also smooths over any fear or hysteria from the populace over the occasional magical accidents or disasters that might cause people to break out the torches and pitchforks.

Wizards can make gold through infinite loops (or other less exploitive means) and if the plebians decided to break out the torches and pitchforks, they'd find themselves on the recieivng end of a well placed Cloudkill.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-25, 09:41 AM
What does the man who can found his own private plane of existance care about the political squabblings of lesser men?

Because no amount of power prevents him from being a man. With a family, and friends. Who may not want to follow him outside of reality forever.
Also, because the DM can't actually make a fun adventure without giving him a time limit. What good is escaping this reality if the Fire King is going to destroy every reality in 24 hours and you have no Epic spells that are fit for the task of slaying him from afar?


Wizards can make gold through infinite loops (or other less exploitive means) and if the plebians decided to break out the torches and pitchforks, they'd find themselves on the recieivng end of a well placed Cloudkill.

Full time job. That's what you leave to your apprentices while you spend your day contemplating Pun-Pun and DMM cheese and your weekends giving in to your mortal urges.

deuxhero
2009-09-25, 09:53 AM
How about other wizards who have a MAD (nuclear war, not monks) that prevents them from acting.

Telonius
2009-09-25, 10:05 AM
In a (D&D 3.5) campaign world I'm running there is an organisation of wizards with a number of high level (15-20) wizard members, as well as many more in the mid levels.

I am looking for an in-game plausible opponent to these to explain (other than through internal divisions, interest, or morality) why these wizards do not have more political power, and I need to find another group that is able to keep these in check, without themselves excercising unlimited power. These opponents need to:
- be mortal (preferable one or more of the normal player races)
- not be full arcane casters in their own right
- be a threat to wizards of similar level to themselves
- be able to operate quietly (so the whole region isn't overly aware of their existence)

I know that I could just handwave the whole problem away (they don't have more power because they just don't, ok?), but neither I or my players find this particularly satisfying.

Within the campaign world all teleports are limited to line of sight, there is no craft contingent and abilities to summon outsiders are severely limited. Pretty much anything non-campaign specific and published 3.5 is ok.

Anyone have any suggestions for this rival organisation? Thanks.

This sounds like a job for Rogues or Bards.

A collection of (insert relevant powers here) realized that the wizards were getting far too powerful, and could seize control if they worked together. So, they started to infiltrate the organization. Sometimes, they seduced their way into the wizards' good graces. (Not too hard for a bard in any case, and really, what wizard puts ranks into Sense Motive?) Other times, they paid off the wizard in gold or promised power. Still others, they gained knowledge of some dark secret that the wizard does not want known and blackmailed the wizard into compliance. In any case, they've finessed their way into the counsels of all of the Wizards, and are constantly working to sow suspicion among their ranks. As a result, none of the highest-level wizards will share any of their best spells with each other.

To help avoid Divination problems, each contact of the Wizard gets some sort of a bonus for achievements the wizard does accomplish. So all members of the organization actually do want their wizard to succeed and will try to prevent any harm from coming to the wizard. Since they're not technically a threat to an individual wizard, and actually wish their wizard well, this foils all but the most carefully-worded of divinations. If another wizard divines a threat from a rival wizard's contact, this further enhances his sense of paranoia - his rivals' friends really are trying to bring him down!

Curmudgeon
2009-09-25, 12:06 PM
You could go with a group that just kills off characters that use magic too readily. A Rogue/Cloistered Cleric/Eye of Lolth could do it with the right feats. Give them Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, and Darkstalker. The thing about the Eye of Lolth is that their Hide in Plain Sight works just like the Assassin/Shadowdancer HiPS, but it's Extraordinary rather than Supernatural. Go in there and UMD a scroll of Antimagic Field, then Hide right in the Wizard's face as you sneak attack them to death in a single round.

While characters trained like this would be ideal to oppose mages, they're too specialized to be good general-purpose assassins.

Fan
2009-09-25, 12:15 PM
You could go with a group that just kills off characters that use magic too readily. A Rogue/Cloistered Cleric/Eye of Lolth could do it with the right feats. Give them Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, and Darkstalker. The thing about the Eye of Lolth is that their Hide in Plain Sight works just like the Assassin/Shadowdancer HiPS, but it's Extraordinary rather than Supernatural. Go in there and UMD a scroll of Antimagic Field, then Hide right in the Wizard's face as you sneak attack them to death in a single round.

While characters trained like this would be ideal to oppose mages, they're too specialized to be good general-purpose assassins.

Contingent Wall of Force's, and a Prismatic Sphere would love to laugh at your pathetic attempts to slay the higher being known as "Wizarden."

Keld Denar
2009-09-25, 12:32 PM
Eh, just make them use a larger than normal amount of resources. My high level wizard (level 13) lately has been encountering a lot of outsiders with the ability to go Ethereal at will (standard action to shift out), a limited form of Epic Deflect Arrows (1/rd), and constant mobile Lesser Globe of Invulnerabilities. This defeats a lot of the common tactics he uses, like Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion, Enervation, Viscid Glob, Solid Fog, EBT, and a host of other BC and debuffing spells. While some of his spells are lowered in power because of this (things like Fogs only cause 1 round of inconvenience, rather than 2-3), hes still contributing. Just burning through resources at an accelerated rate due to the fact that most of his BC and debuff effects are less effective.

So yea. Just make some stuff up. Give some certain bad guys a 1/day Wings of Cover to completely negate the first attack on them per round. This requires the use of Quickened spells or coordinated attacks between 2+ casters. Give them a 1/day Freedom of Movement that lasts for 1-2 rounds, so that any BC has to be cast twice to work. Give a certain group of bad guys a persisted Ray Deflection as a racial ability. Maybe give another group of guys a 1/encounter Iron Heart Surge so they can shrug off a given debuff. That kind of random stuff. You are the DM, make stuff up.

You aren't completely negating any individual mage, just making life a bit more difficult for the group...ie a challenge, which is what you were looking for.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-25, 12:32 PM
Contingent Wall of Force's, and a Prismatic Sphere would love to laugh at your pathetic attempts to slay the higher being known as "Wizarden."
The laughter is quite misplaced. Contingency is a spell that is not on the list of exclusions for Antimagic Field.
Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). The Antimagic Field suppresses the Contingency entirely, so those other spells that would still work don't matter, as they never get triggered.

Keld Denar
2009-09-25, 12:56 PM
Could you even set your contingency to "about to be affected by and antimatic field"? I guess it depends on how omnicient you have contingencies be.

I guess a similar question about be, can Detect Magic even detect an AMF? Its a spell, yea, but it suppresses magic. So...would another spell detect suppresed magic? If Detect Magic can locate an AMF, then contingency should be able to to. Otherwise, AMF would block all contingencies other than maybe "person within 15' of me".

Eldariel
2009-09-25, 12:58 PM
Could you even set your contingency to "about to be affected by and antimatic field"? I guess it depends on how omnicient you have contingencies be.

"When 5' from an AMF" is much safer, less ambiguous wording with the same effect given Anticipate Teleport.

woodenbandman
2009-09-25, 12:59 PM
Priests of Vecna. They'd probably be just as secretive if not moreso, and pretty vicious with the scry-and-screw.

Beguilers, Psions, Archivists, Artificers, or Druids would also work.

Eldariel
2009-09-25, 01:07 PM
Priests of Vecna. They'd probably be just as secretive if not moreso, and pretty vicious with the scry-and-screw.

Beguilers, Psions, Archivists, Artificers, or Druids would also work.

I always go for Droods. Civilization - Nature balance is really easy to hit, especially with some Dark Sunian elements.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-25, 01:11 PM
Could you even set your contingency to "about to be affected by and antimatic field"? I guess it depends on how omnicient you have contingencies be.
That leads to a big discussion on whether Contingency, since it isn't a Divination spell, can detect things that aren't apparent to the person who casts it. I've always worked with DMs that assumed Contingency only worked on observable triggers, and I've carried that forward when DMing myself.

taltamir
2009-09-25, 01:59 PM
local government employ crack teams of balanced parties...
A wizard who tries to usurp power (and it happens quite often) will find his lab door bashed down by a party made out of:
1. a wizard
2. a warrior
3. a cleric
4. a rogue

All equipped with stuff designed to slay wizards.
or something of that sort..

people organize based on many things... their job is usually not one of those. You don't need a "paladin order" or a "warrior guild" to oppose wizards...

OutlawJT
2009-09-25, 02:08 PM
One thought for your 'wetworks' guy. Runescarred Berzerker. Basically, a Barbarian that can use a handful of spells via carving them into his skin. Chief among them at that level? Anti-magic field. Train him in stealth and you have a beefy powerhouse hitter who can sneak up on a wizard, negate his magic, and then splatter him into mist. This is from the Forgotten Realms setting but I think it can easily be adapted to any setting.

dspeyer
2009-09-25, 08:54 PM
Give me a child up to the age of seven and he is mine for life.

The government (or established church) runs the schools. Attendance is mandatory. The schools are good, but also subtly indoctrinate with loyalty to the established order. Any student who shows signs of rejecting the indoctrination is deemed "morally unfit to study magic", and no one will teach him. On the rare occasions that an adult wizard rejects the system, he is called "evil" and immediately taken down by the rest of the magical community.

Note that this is only stable if the government is *mostly* good.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-25, 09:06 PM
Give me a child up to the age of seven and he is mine for life.

The government (or established church) runs the schools. Attendance is mandatory. The schools are good, but also subtly indoctrinate with loyalty to the established order. Any student who shows signs of rejecting the indoctrination is deemed "morally unfit to study magic", and no one will teach him. On the rare occasions that an adult wizard rejects the system, he is called "evil" and immediately taken down by the rest of the magical community.

Note that this is only stable if the government is *mostly* lawful.

Mind control is never a good act. Period. Paragraph. And it is only tentatively neutral, under the auspice of self-preservation. I would rate it as Lawful Neutral with even the slightest hint of full control being full blown diabolically Lawful Evil. But emphasis mine, it is NOT a good act.

And adding to topic, look at the Harpers, and maybe the PrC Unseen Seer. I could see a paramilitary group such as the Harpers employing Uneen Seers as a special strike team, given that a good deal of their power works just fine in an AMF, and they can still keep their spells with one feat applied. The only sad part is a full caster can do it better :P

Vangor
2009-09-25, 09:18 PM
7 Cleric/10 Ghost-Faced Killer, though I mean this as more of an archetype than explicitly using the exact build. I designed this to demonstrate a necessity of lengthy protections, being observant, etc., for a party of seven who were of equivalent ECL. My result was an Assay Resistance DMM Maximize Shivering Touch Ethereal-Walker who could instakill multiple people with a low Will save after/while rendering others helpless.

The reason the Wizard cabal lacks such expansive power is because such enemies exist waiting for moments to strike. While assassins and similar are always abound, the methods of em tend to feel slightly more mundane. Ambushers competent in straight combat with magical protections who might overcome magical protections are simply not what anyone wants.

Yahzi
2009-09-25, 09:28 PM
I am looking for an in-game plausible opponent to these to explain (other than through internal divisions, interest, or morality) why these wizards do not have more political power, and I need to find another group that is able to keep these in check, without themselves excercising unlimited power.
As I suggested in the Yahziworld thread - Mind-flayers! The reason they don't have unlimited power is they turn on each other, too.


- not be full arcane casters in their own right
Oh, well... what you've asked for is simply impossible. The only way anything can hide from 15th level wizard magic is MindBlank. Which requires magic.

dspeyer
2009-09-25, 09:41 PM
Mind control is never a good act. Period. Paragraph. And it is only tentatively neutral, under the auspice of self-preservation. I would rate it as Lawful Neutral with even the slightest hint of full control being full blown diabolically Lawful Evil. But emphasis mine, it is NOT a good act.

I'm not talking about mind control here, just the sort of values-teaching that children require. Something comparable to growing up with patriotic parents, or attending a jesuit boarding school.

Godskook
2009-09-25, 09:47 PM
Daggerspell Shapers seem well tailored to this job. The fluff is a loose cabal of caster/rogue do-gooders. Highly skilled, wild-shapers and half-decent divine casters, they're pretty much everything a wizard isn't. I'd stick mostly with humans, as able learner is one of my favorite feats for a multi-classed skill-monkey.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-25, 09:55 PM
I'm not talking about mind control here, just the sort of values-teaching that children require. Something comparable to growing up with patriotic parents, or attending a jesuit boarding school.

I'm not going to let this degenerate into a sociopolitical debate, but I will say if you go this far, you might as well have them implant Necrotic Cysts. I say if you're going to go, go all out :) That way they can become a cabal of pet wizards if they forget to prep Prot/X or Mind Blank (though if/when they figure out they're cysted...they won't be happy).

Godskook
2009-09-25, 10:02 PM
Oh, well... what you've asked for is simply impossible. The only way anything can hide from 15th level wizard magic is MindBlank. Which requires magic.

He said non-arcane, not non-caster. Clerics and Psions can get their hands on mindblank, and I suspect Druids can too.

Darkmatter
2009-09-25, 10:05 PM
Slayers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) would do the trick - Cerebral Blind at 6th level means the wizards won't be able to scry on the more powerful members of the organization. Kineticist/Slayers have Null Psionics Field to help against the wizards' spells, and their martial abilities would be able to take out a wizard stripped of buffs pretty quickly. Just change the favored psionic enemy to members of your arcane organization.

Yukitsu
2009-09-25, 10:10 PM
Depends on how the wizard academy was founded. Depending on how it was done, you may not get a legitimate reason, you may have one.

I built one up in character, and deliberately prepared for most of the problems people have mentioned, so they could exercise complete political control. However, I was playing a LG baelnorn, so the quality of life of everyone actually increased due to this.

Wizards in general should be opposed by clerics. While the wizards may be more dangerous on their own, the clerics can more easily garner support from the populace, and are very nearly as good in combat. The combination can keep the wizards contented with enough political power to further their prefered lifestyle. If the lead wizard is LG, this can continue ad infinitum, as really, lead wizard should have figured out how to live forever by now.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-26, 01:04 AM
Slayers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) would do the trick - Cerebral Blind at 6th level means the wizards won't be able to scry on the more powerful members of the organization. Kineticist/Slayers have Null Psionics Field to help against the wizards' spells, and their martial abilities would be able to take out a wizard stripped of buffs pretty quickly. Just change the favored psionic enemy to members of your arcane organization.

Actually, can't you qualify for the Arcane Hunter ACF? That would work even better, especially if you tack on scout and do your best to become a swift hunter. Base it on erudites (the wizard's psionic counterpart no less) and snag Hunter's Mercy as a power. A whole ton of skirmish/SA applied to a normally immune target=pain. Just gotta make sure to take out the 18 layers of protection, and that's only the lesser members...

NOTE : I tend to play Batman wizards in the extreme...as in I keep profiles on comrades even in esoteric languages in the event I have to face them. So there is a legitimate in-game reason if the "R&D Department" has come up with a perfect counter to anything thrown at me. But not all wizards are this bad/paranoid/scary. Only the dangerous ones :P Be afraid if the top of the organization have circle magic on War Weavers...

taltamir
2009-09-26, 04:25 AM
Mind control is never a good act. Period. Paragraph. And it is only tentatively neutral, under the auspice of self-preservation. I would rate it as Lawful Neutral with even the slightest hint of full control being full blown diabolically Lawful Evil. But emphasis mine, it is NOT a good act.

And adding to topic, look at the Harpers, and maybe the PrC Unseen Seer. I could see a paramilitary group such as the Harpers employing Uneen Seers as a special strike team, given that a good deal of their power works just fine in an AMF, and they can still keep their spells with one feat applied. The only sad part is a full caster can do it better :P

he just described, verbatim, the public education system found in every country in the world.

EDIT: Although when I think about it, the american founding fathers would probably agree that every government in the world is evil :)

Omegonthesane
2009-09-26, 04:36 AM
You could playtest a party of these babies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126198) against the wizards. Though, I'd recommend more like 1 Witch Killer and 3 Fighters or something because of the large number of counterspell slots.

Cheesegear
2009-09-26, 09:19 AM
Anything that can get out of Mindrape, or at least slow it down a bit. Off hand,

Rogues with Slippery Mind and/or Spymasters (Complete Adventurer)
Paladins of Freedom and/or Occult Slayers (Complete Warrior).
Read up on the fluff and such.

Both would go about killing wizards in their own special way. Go for Ranger and grab Favoured Enemy (Arcanists) which is one of the most overpowered things ever. And stack Mage Slayer feats to suit.

Misunderstood the post. Magic causes cataclysms and wars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5479873&postcount=2). As a result, sometime in the past, the Witch Hunts happened. Magic is universally despised and hated. A wizard who exposes himself is stoned to death. As such, not many wizards make it world-conquering levels. And, those that are, keep quiet about it. Lest the Clerics/Paladins of all the magic-hating Gods come and kill them.

Lkctgo
2009-09-26, 09:47 AM
In a (D&D 3.5) campaign world I'm running there is an organisation of wizards with a number of high level (15-20) wizard members, as well as many more in the mid levels.

I am looking for an in-game plausible opponent to these to explain (other than through internal divisions, interest, or morality) why these wizards do not have more political power, and I need to find another group that is able to keep these in check, without themselves excercising unlimited power. These opponents need to:
- be mortal (preferable one or more of the normal player races)
- not be full arcane casters in their own right
- be a threat to wizards of similar level to themselves
- be able to operate quietly (so the whole region isn't overly aware of their existence)

I know that I could just handwave the whole problem away (they don't have more power because they just don't, ok?), but neither I or my players find this particularly satisfying.

Within the campaign world all teleports are limited to line of sight, there is no craft contingent and abilities to summon outsiders are severely limited. Pretty much anything non-campaign specific and published 3.5 is ok.

Anyone have any suggestions for this rival organisation? Thanks.

Two words. Suel Arachnamancer.

Willis888
2009-09-26, 11:13 AM
To enforce your will on a population you need enforcers. The broader your ambitions, the larger the army that is required.

If a cabal of archmages raises an army and invades someplace, everyone nearby who also has an army is likely to respond (either to defend or take for themselves) with mixed units and in superior numbers.

However, the greatest minds in the land should have exactly as much political power and influence as they choose to have, and individual wizards may also be high ranking bureaucrats or (advisors to) nobility. I imagine that a member of this cabal who spends a greater potion of time politicking would have magical weaknesses that are soon exploited by associates.

taltamir
2009-09-26, 01:24 PM
Anything that can get out of Mindrape, or at least slow it down a bit. Off hand,

Rogues with Slippery Mind and/or Spymasters (Complete Adventurer)
Paladins of Freedom and/or Occult Slayers (Complete Warrior).
Read up on the fluff and such.

Both would go about killing wizards in their own special way. Go for Ranger and grab Favoured Enemy (Arcanists) which is one of the most overpowered things ever. And stack Mage Slayer feats to suit.

Misunderstood the post. Magic causes cataclysms and wars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5479873&postcount=2). As a result, sometime in the past, the Witch Hunts happened. Magic is universally despised and hated. A wizard who exposes himself is stoned to death. As such, not many wizards make it world-conquering levels. And, those that are, keep quiet about it. Lest the Clerics/Paladins of all the magic-hating Gods come and kill them.

protection from arrows, you are now immune to stones... fireball + angry mob = epic win!

Cheesegear
2009-09-26, 06:57 PM
protection from arrows, you are now immune to stones...

But not pitchforks and fire. And swords from the local militia. Not to mention that old guy in the back who has his grandad's Enchantment-breaking Wizard-slaying sword left over from the two Witch Hunts they had a while back...Even if you do manage to kill them all, the big bad good Warforged Paladin (named RoboCob, for some reason :smallamused:), smashes you to pieces for killing all the townsfolk.

Anyway, you need to be Level 4 to have that spell (and Level 6 for Fireball), at least. You have to actually live that long to even get to Level 4. The common wizard who is fifteen or so, just learning his magic, wont have that. And, since in my world, just about every scroll ever seen is burned. A Wizard usually has a tough time finding spells to write down, and rarely, does he manage to have a spell he actually wants...

Anyone caught writing magic down and trying to control it (having a Spellbook, which wizards need) is dead. In my world, a wizard wouldn't make it past level 2 before he's killed. Most of them get killed at 'level 0'.

It's how I can tell my PCs "You can't be wizards..." and feel fully justified. :smallbiggrin: And, is a good reason the two or three Wizards who are actually considered 'powerful' in my world have absolutely zero actual power. Which is what the OP is looking for.

They stay away from people. And don't. Do. Anything.

Yukitsu
2009-09-26, 09:07 PM
But not pitchforks and fire. And swords from the local militia. Not to mention that old guy in the back who has his grandad's Enchantment-breaking Wizard-slaying sword left over from the two Witch Hunts they had a while back...Even if you do manage to kill them all, the big bad good Warforged Paladin (named RoboCob, for some reason :smallamused:), smashes you to pieces for killing all the townsfolk.

Anyway, you need to be Level 4 to have that spell (and Level 6 for Fireball), at least. You have to actually live that long to even get to Level 4. The common wizard who is fifteen or so, just learning his magic, wont have that. And, since in my world, just about every scroll ever seen is burned. A Wizard usually has a tough time finding spells to write down, and rarely, does he manage to have a spell he actually wants...

Anyone caught writing magic down and trying to control it (having a Spellbook, which wizards need) is dead. In my world, a wizard wouldn't make it past level 2 before he's killed. Most of them get killed at 'level 0'.

It's how I can tell my PCs "You can't be wizards..." and feel fully justified. :smallbiggrin: And, is a good reason the two or three Wizards who are actually considered 'powerful' in my world have absolutely zero actual power. Which is what the OP is looking for.

They stay away from people. And don't. Do. Anything.

It's 3 and 5, not 4 and 6.

Also, your wizards aren't very smart, are they. :smallconfused:

KellKheraptis
2009-09-26, 09:14 PM
It's 3 and 5, not 4 and 6.

Also, your wizards aren't very smart, are they. :smallconfused:

Nor are they Illusionists, and by extension Shadowcraft Magi. You can get by just fine with one spell permamastered when that one spell powers an at will Miracle pre-epic, with 0 XP cost. Hell, if I was an archmage in that setting, it would be my lifelong goal to completely destroy every single last remnant of the old order. Revolution in the extreme. And failing that, if the rubes refused to listen to reason, replace all the major figures with Sims. Absolute worst case scenario = AftS, with proper metamagicks, to depressurize the mantle, and then leave. Let the druids try and stop the apocalypse as the planet collapses in on itself, and failing that, good riddance :D

NOTE : Yes, I have done this in game. Yes, the party and DM had a blast with it. And yes, I was called Frieza for a loooong time afterwards.

olentu
2009-09-26, 09:23 PM
Nor are they Illusionists, and by extension Shadowcraft Magi. You can get by just fine with one spell permamastered when that one spell powers an at will Miracle pre-epic, with 0 XP cost. Hell, if I was an archmage in that setting, it would be my lifelong goal to completely destroy every single last remnant of the old order. Revolution in the extreme. And failing that, if the rubes refused to listen to reason, replace all the major figures with Sims. Absolute worst case scenario = AftS, with proper metamagicks, to depressurize the mantle, and then leave. Let the druids try and stop the apocalypse as the planet collapses in on itself, and failing that, good riddance :D

NOTE : Yes, I have done this in game. Yes, the party and DM had a blast with it. And yes, I was called Frieza for a loooong time afterwards.

One would probably want the spell to be signatured. In any case I contend that the miracle trick is too dependent on DM ruling in a way that makes wizards archivists.

Edit: Though in any case illusionists Simulacrum and ice assassin making many other things superfluous.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-26, 09:26 PM
One would probably want the spell to be signatured. In any case I contend that the miracle trick is too dependent on DM ruling in a way that makes wizards archivists.

I can do it with any caster capable of adding miracle to their spell list with access to circle magic. Bear in mind, I didn't say shadow miracle, I said miracle. As in real real major effect for free miracle :D SCM's just have a leg up on the competition.

olentu
2009-09-26, 09:30 PM
I can do it with any caster capable of adding miracle to their spell list with access to circle magic. Bear in mind, I didn't say shadow miracle, I said miracle. As in real real major effect for free miracle :D SCM's just have a leg up on the competition.

So since it is a different trick that has nothing to do with illusion restricted wizards (except for the fact that they can not cast miracle without regaining access to evocation) what does this have to do with being an illusionist. I do not really follow the they must not be illusionists because of a trick that does not require being an illusionist.

Yukitsu
2009-09-26, 09:32 PM
Nor are they Illusionists, and by extension Shadowcraft Magi. You can get by just fine with one spell permamastered when that one spell powers an at will Miracle pre-epic, with 0 XP cost. Hell, if I was an archmage in that setting, it would be my lifelong goal to completely destroy every single last remnant of the old order. Revolution in the extreme. And failing that, if the rubes refused to listen to reason, replace all the major figures with Sims. Absolute worst case scenario = AftS, with proper metamagicks, to depressurize the mantle, and then leave. Let the druids try and stop the apocalypse as the planet collapses in on itself, and failing that, good riddance :D

NOTE : Yes, I have done this in game. Yes, the party and DM had a blast with it. And yes, I was called Frieza for a loooong time afterwards.

I did this as well, but with a twist.

When the peasants/government came with some false accusation about tainting the shell fish which the peasants relied upon for their income, I just said I'd buy it all at market price. This brought around the peasants, who like having a stable buyer. They sold it all using teleport to far inland nations at 4x price.

Then the army came in to try and oust us by force for no reason at all, and saw an empty building. And while they were trying to get all the wizards, who had divinations BTW, the wizards had conquered a small neighboring nation, captured the bases and assets and brought it back, buying out most of the aristocracy, or aristocratic titles.

So with the upper and lower classes, it was just a matter of supplanting the middle class, while avoiding the royalty. They did it by using magic to take over industry and commerce. By this point in time, the government went into a flurried panic, trying to buy out the populace with big promises that they couldn't keep. The wizards withdrew for a while, and the government collapsed due to discontent. And of course, guess who was around to pick up the pieces.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-26, 09:36 PM
So since it is a different trick that has nothing to do with illusion restricted wizards (except for the fact that they can not cast miracle without regaining access to evocation) what does this have to do with being an illusionist. I do not really follow the they must not be illusionists because of a trick that does not require being an illusionist.

Read the last sentence :P SCM makes the whole process a lot easier, and relies on less fishy rules to do it. Everyone else needs Savage Species. And as for Yukitsu, that is bloody brilliant! Though I gotta admit...being called the World Destroyer was fun, at least until it attracted Garyx (the REAL World Destroyer, from the Abyss).

olentu
2009-09-26, 09:39 PM
Read the last sentence :P SCM makes the whole process a lot easier, and relies on less fishy rules to do it. Everyone else needs Savage Species. And as for Yukitsu, that is bloody brilliant! Though I gotta admit...being called the World Destroyer was fun, at least until it attracted Garyx (the REAL World Destroyer, from the Abyss).

There are various ways to get free miracles. Why use the one that requires fishy rules or savage species. And even then as being an illusionist is not required it still seems to work out to saying that they must not be illusionists because of this not necessarily illusionist requiring trick.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-26, 09:51 PM
There are various ways to get free miracles. Why use the one that requires fishy rules or savage species. And even then as being an illusionist is not required it still seems to work out to saying that they must not be illusionists because of this not necessarily illusionist requiring trick.

Illusionists have the easiest time of it because of the ACF in UA letting them automaster Illusion spells. Meaning they don't need to write a spellbook. The other methods involved Innate Spell and Supernatural Transformation.

olentu
2009-09-26, 10:05 PM
Illusionists have the easiest time of it because of the ACF in UA letting them automaster Illusion spells. Meaning they don't need to write a spellbook. The other methods involved Innate Spell and Supernatural Transformation.

Hmm I have not heard the specifics of the one where it matters so much that one does not need a spellbook. If it just saves gold and hastle it seems a bit much of a hastle for having to make miracle an illusion spell.

The other bit is of course still problematic as ever due to the undefined term in assume supernatural ability means that the trick is again completely dependent on the DM ruling (as just because things sound similar does not mean they are the same).

PinkysBrain
2009-09-26, 11:18 PM
All in all a thieves guild with some high level clerics for scrolls seems the most potent anti-wizard force without needing too much casting itself (except for UMD).

Thatguyoverther
2009-09-27, 12:33 AM
I would vote for Clerics as the balancers. With a healthy dose of witch hunting, whenever a wizard steps out of line.

taltamir
2009-09-27, 01:47 AM
But not pitchforks and fire. And swords from the local militia. Not to mention that old guy in the back who has his grandad's Enchantment-breaking Wizard-slaying sword left over from the two Witch Hunts they had a while back...Even if you do manage to kill them all, the big bad good Warforged Paladin (named RoboCob, for some reason :smallamused:), smashes you to pieces for killing all the townsfolk.

Anyway, you need to be Level 4 to have that spell (and Level 6 for Fireball), at least. You have to actually live that long to even get to Level 4. The common wizard who is fifteen or so, just learning his magic, wont have that. And, since in my world, just about every scroll ever seen is burned. A Wizard usually has a tough time finding spells to write down, and rarely, does he manage to have a spell he actually wants...

Anyone caught writing magic down and trying to control it (having a Spellbook, which wizards need) is dead. In my world, a wizard wouldn't make it past level 2 before he's killed. Most of them get killed at 'level 0'.

It's how I can tell my PCs "You can't be wizards..." and feel fully justified. :smallbiggrin: And, is a good reason the two or three Wizards who are actually considered 'powerful' in my world have absolutely zero actual power. Which is what the OP is looking for.

They stay away from people. And don't. Do. Anything.

SO let me get this traight:
1. Magic is punishable by death
2. Warforged (magical constructs only repairably by magic) are somehow ok
3. The violent mob burning innocents women at the stake is "innocent"
and
4. Killing them in self defense gets the wrath of the paladins on your head.?

Besides all of that, you seem to have homebrewed a wizard/sorcerer hybrid thing.
A sorcerer gets its powers in puberty, it needs no books, scrolls, or teachers, it just has power.
A wizard does not have their "powers awaken", they don't have any. They have years of training and knowledge which they apply with magical formulae.
At level 11 a wizard can learn to permanent some spells, like detect magic and tongues, only then does he have "powers" that all "mages" do in traditional fantasy. (aka, the ability to sense "magic" about things... no, you aren't born with it, you NEED to cast a SPELL, detect magic, to do so).

you also apply the policy against magic to the ENTIRE WORLD. thats not believable, especially in a world with no high tech.

It really makes more sense to just use DM fiat and say "there are no wizards"... Magic is limited to magical races (say, dragons), if a human wants to use it he finds himself drained to death in a few spells. OR he has to seek another source of power... Say, human sacrifices... which is evil, which gives a legitimate excuse to hunt down wizards and to not be one.

Yukitsu
2009-09-27, 01:57 AM
Read the last sentence :P SCM makes the whole process a lot easier, and relies on less fishy rules to do it. Everyone else needs Savage Species. And as for Yukitsu, that is bloody brilliant! Though I gotta admit...being called the World Destroyer was fun, at least until it attracted Garyx (the REAL World Destroyer, from the Abyss).

All I got from that little work was the title of "Magnificent Bastard". :smallamused:

vrellum
2009-09-27, 03:38 AM
dragon marks from eberron might help. Limited magic ability for certain characters

Chrono22
2009-09-27, 04:04 AM
A karsite/half iron golem barbarian/frenzied berserker with the mage slayer feats. Mix in some levels of fighter for spiked chain proficiency and some other decent tricks.
For equipment, create a continuous function item that actively harms the wearer with an incredible amount of fire damage. This will act to heal the half-iron golem and give him a constant haste effect. Items that raise his resistance to electricity damage, increase his tactical mobility, and his spell resistance are also a good idea.
Also grant him a couple of 1 time-use beads (thrown weapon) of antimagic field.

Obviously this character would be designed for killing spellcasters... let's say he was experimented upon by them due to his karsite heritage, and seeks retribution against all magic users for the sin of using magic. An anti-magic paladin, if you will.

NotMe
2009-09-28, 05:45 PM
Thanks for the ideas.

There happen to be a couple of adjacent (larger) countries with less high level arcane magic users, one of whom is fairly church dominated while the other is more tribal in nature.

It would be perfectly in keeping for the first of these to have a fairly small number of dedicated teams specifically for keeping the wizards college in check (some bad blood in the past). Something like a cleric/crusader/ruby knight vindicator, Cloistered cleric/rogue/shadowbane stalker, Fighter/Warblade (loaded with the assorted mage slayer feats) and possibly a pure cleric. With suprise (achievable with church provided items and spells and some good intelligence from an organised network) and appropriate domains they should be able to dimension door in, drop some pretty good dispels and leave the shadowbane stalker with a readied action to disrupt spellcasting with some faily significant ranged damage. Once a couple get into melee, backed by dispelling/counterspelling, a dimensional anchor and readied action disrupts then there should be the potential to give a fatal suprise to a wizard a couple of levels higher.

This doesn't need to be a force capeable of guaranteed victory against a bunch of wizards in their stronghold, but something that means that they have to think twice before running off to excercise power elsewhere (no long range teleport in this campaign).

The more tribal society has an established druidic network, but is otherwise more chaotic in nature. Here the druids and sheer numbers mean that even the more power hungry wizards are never sure what they would face if they went for an overtly aggressive approach. There would be a role for both druids and more mystical fighter types (archytype, not class) such as the runescarred berserker if push came to shove.

I've never been trying to establish a force to wipe out the wizards, just a more feasible balance of power scenario. Even if one side thinks that it can win, there still needs to be enough doubt about the outcome and about the losses so that the more cautious members restrain the more aggresive or impulsive and so a single wizard gone bad is less likely to destabilise the balance of power (unless dictated by plot).

Cheers for the ideas, always good to hear a few other perspectives.