Need help with this Barbarian Variant

[Revan Ordo]

I've got a player that has an idea for a barbarian variant that doesn't wear armor. At first glance it doesn't appear to be all that unbalanced, but I would appreciate other opinions.

Unarmored Barbarian Variant
A barbarian who chooses to not wear armor might choose to exchange his proficiency with armor for a natural armor bonus.

Gain
Natural Armor bonus – Gain a natural armor bonus to AC equal to the barbarian’s Constitution modifier, the barbarian loses this bonus if he wears any type of armor. A barbarian who wears armor doesn't gain the benefits of Fast Movement and Damage Reduction.

Lose
Proficiency with light, and medium armor.

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

[Ashtagon]

I'm a firm believe in the idea that any "you gain ability modifier X to bonus Y" class features should be capped at your class level; otherwise, you encourage level dipping.

With a decently-optimised character, you can quickly expect to get +4 Con bonus, which makes up for the basic armour bonus. You are also gaining the benefit of not suffering the skill penalties of the maximum Dexterity by armour type limit. Additionally, you gain about 20 lb or so of encumbrance capacity if you use that rule, and not worrying about sleeping in armour.

Against that, you lose the potential for most forms of magic item that would have gone in the armour slot. There are substitutes for those items, but how available those are is very campaign-specific.

Overall, I think this leads to a slight power-up if a low-magic campaign, or a nerf in a high-magic campaign.

[deuxhero]

There are also the base defense bonus optional rules in Unearthed Arcana/SRD you might want to check out.

[Revan Ordo]

Good points Ashtagon. I had also thought of capping the bonus to the character's level. But the player is really against this and has begged me not to do that. I was considering leaving it as is, but I think it needs something else to offset the slight power gain. Any other ideas on ways I could offset this?

deuxhero, thanks I had considered the base defense bonus rules from UA, but I've never been a big fan of that system, and the player didn't care for it much either.

[Ashtagon]

Good points Ashtagon. I had also thought of capping the bonus to the character's level. But the player is really against this and has begged me not to do that.I was considering leaving it as is, but I think it needs something else to offset the slight power gain. Any other ideas on ways I could offset this?


An alternative to "capped at your class level" (again, aimed at the level-dip abuse) is that the ability is lost any time the barbarian class accounts for 50% or less of his total class levels.

Because, let's face it, Con bonus to AC is a very sweet feature for an arcane caster to one-level dip into.

[Boci]

An alternative to "capped at your class level" (again, aimed at the level-dip abuse) is that the ability is lost any time the barbarian class accounts for 50% or less of his total class levels.

I personally wouldn't use this, because I like dipping, but if you're playing in lower power level game than I usually do this is a valid rule.


Because, let's face it, Con bonus to AC is a very sweet feature for an arcane caster to one-level dip into.

Not worth the caster level hit, and barely a decent option for a gish.

To the OP: Is he AC the same level as it it would be if he wore armour? If its lower then I don't see a problem.

[Xefas]

Because, let's face it, Con bonus to AC is a very sweet feature for an arcane caster to one-level dip into.

:smallconfused: Not at all, really, no.

I'd keep it the same as in the original post.

If anything, I'd make it based on Strength to reduce MAD, and then give them a small progression in Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw maneuvers. But that's my group.

[DragoonWraith]

I'm a firm believe in the idea that any "you gain ability modifier X to bonus Y" class features should be capped at your class level; otherwise, you encourage level dipping.
I'm a firm believer that this is not a bad thing and capping features unnecessarily is an excellent way to limit player's choices. Increasing the limitations on a feature should never be the reason why you are pursuing a class - there should be new features that you're looking forward to.

For example, I had a character that wanted the Test of Mettle Knight Ability. That comes at Knight 4, and it turned out that Knight 5 was fitting for the character, so she took Knight 5. At that point, nothing in the Knight class fit the character at all, and she multiclassed out. The problem? Test of Mettle has a Will save DC of 10 + 1/2 Knight level + Cha. If her Knight level was staying at 5, that was going to be a pretty weak save DC. Why should that limitation exist? Why couldn't I have just Test of Mettle and not get the rest of the Knight features that don't fit the character? Luckily, the DM agreed with me, and set the DC to 10 + 1/2 BAB + Cha, instead. Now as long as I take a full BAB class, I can keep that DC up, and even if I don't, I'm not so thoroughly screwed as I would be otherwise.

My opinion is that every class should strive to be a "good dip, a great splash, and a wonderful dive", as someone described Binders once. Each feature should be able to stand on its own, but the class should also be able to gain more features as it gets higher in level.


I personally wouldn't use this, because I like dipping, but if you're playing in lower power level game than I usually do this is a valid rule.
And dipping does not correlate with power level, so one's desired power level has nothing to do with the validity of that restriction.

[Revan Ordo]

For those concerned with players using this as a one level dip: In my campaigns, if a player wants to take another class or a prestige class, it has to be roleplayed in. I also don't usually let my players dip into a class or prestige class for one level and then pick another, at least not without a very good reason.

For example, if Ivellion the 4th level LG Elven Ranger decides he wants to take his 5th level as a Paladin, he has to roleplay how he went through the Paladin training and let's face it more often than not, if you are in the middle of an adventure/campaign, how often do you have time to spend a month or more in training to pick up a new class or prestige class.

My main concern was with the balance of this barbarian variant. My player wanted to play a musclebound greatsword wielding barbarian in a leather loin cloth. So we worked out this variant so his character would still have a decent AC without needing any armor. He has already assured me that he isn't going to take another class or prestige class that allows him to add X stat modifier to his AC, so I thought it would be okay. Furthermore, since it was based off of the monk class unarmored AC ability, and it doesn't receive an increase at every 5th level, it seemed okay.

Thanks everyone for your input. Keep it coming. So far this has been really insightful. For now I'm leaning toward leaving this as it was in my original post, but if anyone has any other more convincing arguments I may still amend it. Besides, the campaign won't start for a few weeks yet.

[DracoDei]

Since it specifies ARMOR (not armor BONUS) and doesn't scale with level, I would fully expect and approve of the character combining this with Bracers of Armor.

...but you almost certainly already knew that.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I've got a player that has an idea for a barbarian variant that doesn't wear armor. At first glance it doesn't appear to be all that unbalanced, but I would appreciate other opinions.

Unarmored Barbarian Variant
A barbarian who chooses to not wear armor might choose to exchange his proficiency with armor for a natural armor bonus.

Gain
Natural Armor bonus – Gain a natural armor bonus to AC equal to the barbarian’s Constitution modifier, the barbarian loses this bonus if he wears any type of armor. A barbarian who wears armor doesn't gain the benefits of Fast Movement and Damage Reduction.

Lose
Proficiency with light, and medium armor.

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

I think it's weak. NA may make up for armor, but it also means that you can't enhance armor, making it a bit weaker. Losing DR and fast movement doesn't help any. On the other hand, he/she could regain the proficiencies by dipping into fighter...still, on the weak side.

[PinkysBrain]

Why not simply give him AC as a monk? (Wis to AC with extra bonus dependent on level.) With polymorph et al Con to AC would be rather broken.

[Ashtagon]

Why not simply give him AC as a monk? (Wis to AC with extra bonus dependent on level.) With polymorph et al Con to AC would be rather broken.

Barbarian normally has almost no reason to invest in Wisdom, which would totally gimp this as a class feature for him.

[lightningcat]

Why not simply give him AC as a monk? (Wis to AC with extra bonus dependent on level.) With polymorph et al Con to AC would be rather broken.

Since natural armor doesn't apply to touch attacks, and the Monk AC bonus applies to everything.

I'm assuming that using Con as the base is due to the fact that Rage gives a boost to his Con score, making his Natural Armor even tougher when raging.

I think I'll be looking into stealing this idea for my own use.... Maybe making it scale identically to the Monk ability but natural armor based off Con modifer. Maybe partnered with additional speed bonuses.
All of which is lost if wearing armor or carring more then a light load.

[Revan Ordo]

This is what I'm thinking:

Unarmored Barbarian Variant
A barbarian who chooses to not wear armor might choose to exchange his proficiency with armor for a natural armor bonus and additional speed.

Gain
Natural Armor Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the barbarian gains a natural armor bonus to AC equal to his Constitution modifier. If the barbarian dons any armor, he loses this natural armor bonus to AC and loses his damage reduction and fast movement abilities as well until he removes the armor.

Fast Movement: +10' to his base speed at 1st, 10th, and 20th.

Loses
Proficiency with light, and medium armor.

I still don't think he should get a bonus as the monk at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter because he can still gain the benefits of using a shield and keep his natural armor bonus.

Although my player has mentioned being willing to part with the trap sense ability if that would make this more balanced. Thoughts anyone?

[GreatWyrmGold]

This is what I'm thinking:

Unarmored Barbarian Variant
A barbarian who chooses to not wear armor might choose to exchange his proficiency with armor for a natural armor bonus and additional speed.

Gain
Natural Armor Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the barbarian gains a natural armor bonus to AC equal to his Constitution modifier. If the barbarian dons any armor, he loses this natural armor bonus to AC and loses his damage reduction and fast movement abilities as well until he removes the armor.

Fast Movement: +10' to his base speed at 1st, 10th, and 20th.

Loses
Proficiency with light, and medium armor.

I still don't think he should get a bonus as the monk at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter because he can still gain the benefits of using a shield and keep his natural armor bonus.

Although my player has mentioned being willing to part with the trap sense ability if that would make this more balanced. Thoughts anyone?

I think this is better thsn the original.

[Baron Corm]

Although my player has mentioned being willing to part with the trap sense ability if that would make this more balanced. Thoughts anyone?

Trap sense is a mechanically useless ability which actually fits flavorwise with your unarmored variant. Your player sounds like a bit of a powergamer. I don't think that you should factor trap sense into any balance calculations.

I also think that losing the natural armor bonus to AC while wearing armor stretches plausibility a bit much. His skin suddenly softens when he puts armor on? Not much you can do about this other than allowing the barbarian to wear armor normally if he takes a feat, or change the type of AC bonus.

About the balance of your original ability, I think it's pretty fair. Your AC will likely be lower in the beginning, and you won't be able to get special abilities later on, but your rage provides a scaling bonus to AC now. Adding extra fast movement into the deal kind of complicates it so you should probably just leave it as-is.

[Zaydos]

I like the fast movement boost. It might be possible to get better AC with this variant if you really boosted Con but doing so means not boosting Str and Dex which means you'll probably end up with the same AC or a significantly worse offense if you do so. I'd actually say I might use this ability as is because it looks neat and fits with Norse berserkers who went into battle without mail but whose skin deflected weapons from them. As this was a spiritual/religious power in some interpretations (especially those where they were warriors of Odin as opposed to in some of the sagas where they were violent brigands) it would explain why they'd lose it when wearing armor, although it seems unlikely this would work for your player.

[DragoonWraith]

Trap sense is a mechanically useless ability which actually fits flavorwise with your unarmored variant. Your player sounds like a bit of a powergamer.
Or... he may just not be thoroughly familiar with the balance of things, has a particular idea in mind, and wants to work with his DM to come to an equitable solution that makes everyone happy?

Sorry, I just like making unique characters, and I often want to switch things around or change things to achieve that unique status (rather than just use a straight 1-20 progression out of the box), but I'm not the greatest balancer, so I often will try to suggest things that are not important to my character concept that might be worth trading for features I do want. I try to make this fair, giving up power if anything, but I'm not always the best judge. I've had DMs who have been really cool and try to help out with this, who do know balance better than I and know when to say yes or no. And then I've had DMs who don't want to change anything, assume I'm power-gaming for even asking about it, and don't select me for campaigns. The latter bothers me.


I also think that losing the natural armor bonus to AC while wearing armor stretches plausibility a bit much. His skin suddenly softens when he puts armor on?
Just make it not stack with Armor bonuses, then. This makes sense - the plate is covering your thicker skin, so the plate gives you a certain AC, but you don't also get AC for the stuff under the plate, the plate's already protecting it.

[Amadi]

My suggestion would be the following:

1st level: Gains bonus to natural AC equal to Constitution modifier. This bonus increases by 1 for each 5 levels the Barbarian has.
2nd level: Unarmored Barbarians gain more damage reduction than normal barbarians. They gain DR 1/- at 2nd level, and the DR increases by 1 for each 3 levels beyond that. (2/- at 5th, etc, up to 7/- at 20th level.)

This way it is not that hard of a nerf in campaigns where there is magic. :smallwink:

[Baron Corm]

Just make it not stack with Armor bonuses, then. This makes sense - the plate is covering your thicker skin, so the plate gives you a certain AC, but you don't also get AC for the stuff under the plate, the plate's already protecting it.

Why would it work this way for this character and not for every other creature in the universe? By implementing this as a rule, you gimp every creature out there with natural armor.

[Realms of Chaos]

If I'm reading this ability correctly, it is intended to completely cancel out the AC bonus granted to the barbarian while they are in a rage. In fact, by 20th level, it grants an extra +2 bonus to AC while raging.

Interesting

[Glimbur]

Why would it work this way for this character and not for every other creature in the universe? By implementing this as a rule, you gimp every creature out there with natural armor.

You could just give the Barbarian an Armor bonus naturally instead of a Natural Armor bonus. Semantics, I know, but it matters.

There is precedent for Armor bonuses from things other than armor; the Ankheg Breastplate soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum is one and I think Warforged get Armor Bonuses when "unarmored" (though they're made of armor sometimes, so...)