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Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-25, 05:04 PM
Lately I've been on a bit of what one might call a World of Darkness kick. It looks like a very intriguing system, and everyone I've spoken to has praised it for its deep plots and interesting ideas, though it isn't as mechanically easy as D&D, which is the only tabletop RPG I've ever known. The trouble is, I don't know if the game would be right for me.

Firstly, I don't think my parents would approve of me spending money on a completely new game, when I've already shelled out hundreds of dollars for both 3.5e and 4e D&D books.

Secondly, I'm not sure if a guy like me could survive it. As some of you may know, I like to play paladin-like characters. My characters tend to start out as naive yokels who wind up in the big city and fight for what is right in the face of an oppressive feeling of pessimism and evil.

From what I understand of the World of Darkness, that kind of attitude will get you eaten alive.

In Vampire, which is the game that interests me the most at the moment, the unspoken rule seems to be that you need to at least be selfish to survive. That it's not a matter of having enemies, but how many enemies. That you have to be cunning and manipulative and you can't trust anybody but yourself. Frankly, that's a kind of attitude I hate a lot. I don't think I've ever played a character who wasn't selfless in some way. Is it even possible to play a vampire who is actually trustworthy and altrusitic?

Other games feel just as oppressive. If what I've been told about Changeling is true, it's even worse than Vampire, though that one doesn't feel as clear in its tone as Vampire does.

Even groups that appear ostensibly to be the "good guys" like in Hunter, have dirty little secrets, whether they do cruel experiments on captured supernatural beings or they secretly worship a cosmic horror.

I know that it's not really possible for a person to have a perfect morality. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight taught me that. However, I find it very hard to overcome my ambivalence about the World of Darkness. I want to try it, but I feel like if I play my normal kind of character, I'm only going to be setting myself up for a lot of character deaths, as my character will either bite off more than he can chew or get backstabbed because he was too trusting.

Any advice?

Kyeudo
2009-09-25, 06:10 PM
My advice? Play Exalted. Same mechanical basis, different goal. The basic game assumes that you play a Solar Exalt, a mortal empowered by the Unconquered Sun to be his champions. Being a holy warrior and righting wrongs with the strength of your convictions and the edge of your sword is one of the iconic Solar archetypes.

If you want to go a little darker, you can explore the Abyssals or Infernals, Solar Exalts corrupted by the powers of the Underworld by the powers of Hell as weapons against Creation. Evem these, though, can rise above what they were made to be and scream "Screw You!" at their creators with a fury to shake the foundation of the world.

If you want to see what Exalted can be like without playing, I recomend reading Keychain of Creation (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0001.html).

kamikasei
2009-09-25, 06:14 PM
Yeah, I'd say playing Exalted in a Solar circle with a group who are happy to make it optimistic would be your best bet.

What about the World of Darkness draws your interest, given your inclinations?

NeoVid
2009-09-25, 06:23 PM
nWoD is one of the easiest systems out there, far simpler and more intuitive than even 4th ed D&D, so that really shouldn't be a problem.

Being really heroic in the WoD is about as hard as it is in RL. Vampire is probably a totally unfitting game for you, as it's got a lot in common with Paranoia for how you deal with other people. You can have a vampire who is altruistic, though it'll go against your character's instincts, but it's not really possible to have a vamp who is entirely trustworthy, as they don't have complete control over themselves.

Sounds like you've been given a mistaken impression of Changeling. They do live in fear, but other changelings are the only people you can count on.

For a truly heroic character, the obvious choices are Geist, and some of the Hunter and Mage factions. You can certainly have a heroic character in any game, but they'd be easiest.

...Wait. Actually, it just occurred to me that there's one game where it would be very fitting to have a character who has dedicated his existence to trying to be heroic and helping people for no other reason than he thinks he should: Promethean.

Mage and Promethean are the hardest of the nWoD games, though. Hunter is mechanically pretty much duh-simple.

Also, keep in mind that the most heroic D&D character kills tons of people without a qualm. The fact that the WoD holds characters to higher moral standards might even be a positive thing.

Edge
2009-09-25, 06:38 PM
Frankly, that's a kind of attitude I hate a lot. I don't think I've ever played a character who wasn't selfless in some way. Is it even possible to play a vampire who is actually trustworthy and altrusitic?

Actually, it is. WoD is quite big on "here are the stereotypes, now go and make a character that deviates from these as you see fit".

In addition, there is a sub-faction to the Ordo Dracul, detailed in their splatbook, who pretty much have that as their shtick. The Sworn of the Ladder simply want to try and become human again.

Of course, this is heretical within the Ordo, and if anyone outside the Ladder-sworn finds out about the local cell, expect a Sworn of the Axe kill-team to ash you quickly and painlessly at best.

I also +1 everything NeoVid said, but I'll also throw Werewolf in for the "heroic" game. It'd be more Ancient/Classical/Germanic ideas of heroism, though, rather than being paladinesque, and also clarify that while changelings have pretty much only themselves to rely on, even they have traitors among their numbers.

Selrahc
2009-09-25, 07:02 PM
I'd disagree with the people saying "Just try exalted". Exalted is an entirely different game about crazy Kung Fu, fantasy gods with a basically changed idea behind the rules, WoD is at its heart a low powered dark mystery setting (Exalted sets up is to facilitate stunts and cool actions, being more combat focused, WoD is to facilitate quick easy gameplay without sacrificing storytelling).

Werewolf is definitely a good idea for the hero, a werewolf pack has as an ideal no infighting, political intrigue among its members or attempts to steal from each other. The pack can be trusted. As long as you have that the idealistic hero can work even in a dark world. In Vampire, Geist, Changeling, Hunter and Mage that is much less guaranteed although particularly so for Vampire. Of course a more pragmatic and less naive hero can work in any of the settings easily.

I'd advice grabbing the main book and playing a few sessions as a mortal. Get a feel for the system without sinking a bunch of cash into it.

NeoVid
2009-09-25, 07:21 PM
I actually didn't think of the fact that there are quickstarts out there for most of the games. My FLGS still has copies of the Geist one from Free RPG Day. Worth looking for.

I considered listing Werewolf, since it essentially has you acting as spiritual law enforcement, but didn't because I thought it wasn't likely to be what the OP is looking for. Werewolves can accidentally kill people pretty easily, often the only way they have to deal with a possessed innocent victim is Savage Rending, and they've got a pretty alien sense of morality. It doesn't seem to me that Zousha would be too interested in playing something that doesn't even have a human sense of right and wrong. The fact that the pack bond makes for one of the most cohesive groups you can have in an RPG is a beautiful thing, though. In fact, the most immoral thing a werewolf can do is betray pack members.

Now I think I was focusing on the negatives too much. I've played nWoD far more than anything else and love it.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-25, 07:43 PM
Doesn't playing a paladin all the time get boring? If I was lawful good in every game I'd played I'd be happy to find a system that'd force me to change. Treat it like an opportunity.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-25, 10:00 PM
Some of my friends advised my to consider, if I wanted to play Vampire, to play someone who wasn't a leader, but a follower. A guy that the more intrigue inclined Kindred could rely on and, frankly, use. Also, they suggested that a way to make sure that I didn't get ashed for trying to be a decent human being is to be tough enough to make vampires who view me as a threat think twice about taking me on, as well as avoiding the politicing as much as possible. Instead of joining one of the covenants and gaining that covenant's enemies as my own, I'd be the one guy my team-mates wouldn't have to watch their back for, because I wouldn't have an agenda, and I wouldn't have enemies that might start gunning for them to get at me. In other words, I'd be more of a bodyguard type. A toadie, but a toadie too valuable to just cast aside.

And then just be a decent guy. Not necessarily naive, since it's hard to be innocent when you've got the Beast inside you raging against its shackles, but a guy who knows that doing the right thing is tough, even tougher for vampires, but then does it anyway, and when he's forced to do something wrong, he does his best to atone for it and maintain his Humanity. Sort of like the Knight in Sour Armor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightInSourArmor).

And no. Paladins never get boring for me. But then, I'm a guy who likes routines and patterns, so take from that what you will.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-25, 10:05 PM
What about the World of Darkness draws your interest, given your inclinations?
Namely that it's something different from the medieval-based high fantasy worlds that D&D lends itself to. I saw some clips from the PC game VtM: Bloodlines, and thought it looked pretty cool.

And, I've read a little vampire literature, so I was curious. I've only read Dracula and Christabel though, so I know nothing about the vampires of Anne Rice or Twilight's sparkly anomalies.

Dacia Brabant
2009-09-25, 10:45 PM
I think the Salubri Antitribu are basically supposed to be the paladins of the WoD, from what I recall they're all about honor and smiting demons and stuff so you could look into that. Then there are the regular Salubri who are your Vow of Peace types, but they're complicated, and only I think 8 are allowed to exist at any one time.

I actually played a selfless team-player type in my old, old V:tM game, went all out with True Faith and cruelty-free feeding and resolving situations nonviolently and everything. Of course he was also thoroughly mad (Malkavian...yeah) so that was just his crazy schtick--in his moments of clarity he was a beast. It worked okay but having a group who was amenable to that sort of thing helped a lot.

I don't know anything about the nWoD though so I can't speak to that.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-25, 11:04 PM
Well, from what I've seen of some of the Vampire covenants they seem to at least have some decent members. The one that sticks out most for me is the Lancea Sanctum. It seems to be right up my alley, since they believe that vampires were created by God to keep humans away from sin, but I'm fairly certain that that's only the party line, and that they're just as byzantine as the Invictus, who at least don't pretend to be anything else.

I looked up those Salubri antitribu, and I'm not so sure. They're part of the Sabbat, and like any Sabbat group they have zero respect for human beings.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-26, 09:30 PM
Suppose I wanted to try out a World of Darkness game. What should I look into first? What would be necessary purchases? What would I need to know to set up a character?

Emong
2009-09-26, 09:36 PM
To run a mortals only game all you need is the World of Darkness corebook. Any of the races, Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/Etc., has it's own rulebook you'd need to buy. Anything else is just icing on the cake.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-26, 10:06 PM
Suppose I wanted to try out a World of Darkness game. What should I look into first? What would be necessary purchases? What would I need to know to set up a character?

I would highly recomend playing a hunter game as that would fit your style very well..

Also i wouldn't play the new stuff...
1 its gonna cost you more and two im a bigger fan of the old stuff.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-26, 10:13 PM
I'm thinking of looking more into the new stuff for two reasons. 1, there's a lot more wiggle room with the setting, and thus you don't need as many books to have the whole story, and 2, I imagine they'd be hard to find now that they've been discontinued.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-26, 10:42 PM
I'm thinking of looking more into the new stuff for two reasons. 1, there's a lot more wiggle room with the setting, and thus you don't need as many books to have the whole story, and 2, I imagine they'd be hard to find now that they've been discontinued.

They could be? I don't know about wiggle room though. err what you meen by that.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-26, 11:16 PM
I mean less of a reliance on canon and metaplot, being able to have a bit more roleplaying freedom.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-27, 12:11 AM
From what you say above, you seem to have a pretty good character concept going, between your own predalictions and your friends suggestions. I say go with it, see how it flies.

*shrug* You pretty much only need the books if you are going to run it, from what I have seen, really.

Felirc
2009-09-27, 12:31 AM
I will also vouch for Werewolf as being a fairly heroic game.


Suppose I wanted to try out a World of Darkness game. What should I look into first?

Well, if you're worried that you aren't going to like the system/style then I have a the perfect solution. White-Wolf offers free Quickstarts (http://www.white-wolf.com/downloads.php?&category_id=6) for just about everything they make. Some of these are actually quite long and give you a great idea of how a standard game can be run. They include most of the basic rules (certainly enough to run a game using it), and while it may be lacking, it should, at least, provide a good bases for finding out if you like the system.

-Felirc-

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-27, 09:35 AM
I mean less of a reliance on canon and metaplot, being able to have a bit more roleplaying freedom.

How is oWOD like that?
I've never seen any one rely on meta plot.

Kyeudo
2009-09-27, 10:38 AM
From what I gather, oWoD's fluff was fairly fixed as to what was going on in the World of Darkness. If you wanted to do something that wasn't part of their concept of the World, you had to homebrew large parts of the setting to keep it making sense.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-27, 11:20 AM
From what I gather, oWoD's fluff was fairly fixed as to what was going on in the World of Darkness. If you wanted to do something that wasn't part of their concept of the World, you had to homebrew large parts of the setting to keep it making sense.

I guess do you have an example?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-27, 11:35 PM
Which clan would work best for this idea? I'm thinking Gangrel, but the other clans look just as cool.

Kyeudo
2009-09-27, 11:53 PM
I guess do you have an example?

I'm just familiar with the complaint. TvTropes claims it is amoung the more infamous examples but doesn't fill in too many details.

SurlySeraph
2009-09-28, 01:10 AM
Which clan would work best for this idea? I'm thinking Gangrel, but the other clans look just as cool.

Given their general badassery and smashiness, Gangrel's probably the best for any fighting character with strongly held beliefs.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-28, 12:48 PM
That's what I was told. Plus I was told that I can make every rat, pigeon and stray cat in the city my informant.

Bagelz
2009-09-28, 02:04 PM
From what I understand of the World of Darkness, that kind of attitude will get you eaten alive.

In Vampire, which is the game that interests me the most at the moment, the unspoken rule seems to be that you need to at least be selfish to survive.

I hope that isn't the majority WoD games out there. It really depends on your storyteller i guess, but what i've found are the biggest themes in vampire/mage/and werewolf, are the struggles between balancing your humanity and your monster. Vamps have a humanity scale, wolfs have a harmony, mages have their gnosis. plain humans have their morality.

The dramatic conflict develops because you are trying to keep your "goodness" despite being a complete monster. How do you get along in a world where everything including your own shadow is out to get you, and not turn into one of those monsters yourself?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-28, 02:26 PM
And I understand that. It's just that what I've seen (mostly from TV Tropes, so perhaps I'm wrong) is that no matter how much good you do, or try to do, the world is just going to steadily get worse. There's no hope and no redemption, and all you can do is just try to stay alive as long as you can. Life, or unlife, is a b*tch and then you die. You know, a Crapsack World (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld).

hiryuu
2009-09-28, 02:31 PM
I guess do you have an example?

I'll give you one.

Vampire creation story.

Ah, two.

Werewolf religion.

Nowadays, these things are cast in doubt and uncertainty, though each pack or coterie or city might have its own ideas. It also makes the stories much more personal as opposed to grand, seemingly global scales... which was opposed to the sort of personal horror they were trying to create.

Also, new Hunter and Changeling are superior, and Geist is full of win.

Gnaeus
2009-09-28, 03:35 PM
Well, from what I've seen of some of the Vampire covenants they seem to at least have some decent members. The one that sticks out most for me is the Lancea Sanctum. It seems to be right up my alley, since they believe that vampires were created by God to keep humans away from sin, but I'm fairly certain that that's only the party line, and that they're just as byzantine as the Invictus, who at least don't pretend to be anything else.

I looked up those Salubri antitribu, and I'm not so sure. They're part of the Sabbat, and like any Sabbat group they have zero respect for human beings.

Read more deeply into the LC before making one, or make sure that your DM supports this view. The Lancea do believe themselves to be the good guys, but some of their tenets are just as twisted from the perspective of most real world religious humans as the Sabbat were. They exalt the role of predators and tell recruits that it is ok to be a monster because that was the role given to them by god.

Totally Guy
2009-09-28, 03:49 PM
Nowadays, these things are cast in doubt and uncertainty, though each pack or coterie or city might have its own ideas. It also makes the stories much more personal as opposed to grand, seemingly global scales... which was opposed to the sort of personal horror they were trying to create.

My vampire had all kind of dumb stories he'd come up with.

He'd explain why various religious and famous figures were in actual fact vampires.

And he explained how vampires worked together with the allies to fight the Nazis. Because even vampires hated that regime.

It was funny at the time.

NeoVid
2009-09-28, 03:57 PM
And I understand that. It's just that what I've seen (mostly from TV Tropes, so perhaps I'm wrong) is that no matter how much good you do, or try to do, the world is just going to steadily get worse.

That's oWoD, where the world was going to end no matter what any PCs did. ...Also, it's an example of how the setting could get strangled by metaplot.

nWoD, you're not likely to be able to change the world in a major way, since this isn't a setting where PCs get to epic level, but you can help people.

And hey, once in a while, you can do something epic in WoD. My last Mage campaign ended with our characters getting part of the Celestial Ladder functioning again.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-28, 05:34 PM
Well, as I'd said before, I was only considering the LS. The advice I've recieved so far is, if I don't want to involve myself in vampire politics, I need to stay away from the vampire political groups and be unaligned. Sure I won't get the slick benefits one gets from joining them, but I won't have to be an errand boy, I won't have to worry about making enemies from factions that are opposed to mine, and I can do what I think is right without having to worry about the group's rules.

Sort of like: "I don't want or need the Covenants. I couldn't stand the thought of loyalty to them conflicting with my real loyalties, which are to my coterie and to people."

Also, I understand that major differences aren't gonna be something one can do very often. The ending of Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines showed me that. The ending really isn't epic in my book. Sure, the local Prince is dead and the Ankarran Sarcophagus is no longer a threat, but the tension between the Anarchs, Camarilla and Kuei-Jin is still there (I'd assume that even without La Croix and/or Ming-Xiao, none of the groups look like they've actually seized complete control of the city). And we're one step closer to Gehenna anyway.

I'm talking more about making a Batman-style difference. Batman has never managed to decisively win against his enemies like the Joker, or Scarecrow or anyone else in the bunch. They just get carted off to Arkham where they eventually escape and then cause more havoc. But Batman keeps fighting them, stopping them whenever they rise, and still finding time to scare the bejeezus out of some street punks in an alleyway. That's what I'm talkin' about. Keeping people, kindred and kine, safe whenever they're threatened, but not necessarily taking steps to eliminate the root of the problem, since I'm more a glorified thug than an agitator for actual policy change. Am I making sense with this?