Suggestions for these stats

[Talya]

I'm sorta lost as to what i want to play. I'm leaning toward a gnome of some kind, but that's not set in stone.

Rolled with 4d6, drop the lowest:
4D6.HIGH(3) = [6, 6, 5, 2] = 17
4D6.HIGH(3) = [5, 3, 6, 2] = 14
4D6.HIGH(3) = [2, 6, 6, 5] = 17
4D6.HIGH(3) = [4, 4, 4, 6] = 14
4D6.HIGH(3) = [3, 1, 1, 1] = 5
4D6.HIGH(3) = [2, 3, 4, 6] = 13


3.5 - d20, anything goes from any WotC source. Starting at level 1, using premade modules.
Obviously, I need a dump stat. I don't like dumping int or cha below 10, if i can help it. Wisdom I'd prefer not, but whatever works.

I don't like psionics.

[taltamir]

you could dump cha, or wis naturally, with almost any character...
you could play a primary caster and dump dex or str. especially if you play a small creature (harder to hit).
dumping dex as some sort of warrior will make you easier to hit at first, but it will actually make dex boosting items and spells useful on you. (since heavy armor caps you at +1 dex bonus.

A low wis will go really well with an aspiring necromancer / warlock.. (dabbling in undead / sold my soul for power, not very wise)

you could really play anything

[Talya]

The feat "Force of Personality," i think it's called, makes dumping wisdom appealling, actually, if I played a charisma-based class...

[Eldariel]

The way I see it, you either:
- Play a caster and dump Str to all hell.
- Play a caster and dump one of Int/Cha/Wis to all hell.
- Play a melee type and dump one of Int/Cha/Wis to all hell.
- You play whatever and key the important things off not-that-dumped-stat.

Str seems to be the easiest (even warrior-types can easily be based off Dex or even Wis with some work), followed by Cha (but you expressed desire to keep it high, so let's), Int (but...yeah) and Wis (but...yeah; be a Pally, a character with Keen Intellect, or something to get by the Wis-needs though).


Beyond that, well, you have two very high stats so Dual Attribute Dependency is no problem; makes me think of the various Scouts, Swift Hunters, Archivists (and in general, dual stat casters), Bards, etc. I'd personally lean towards a smart, charismatic, nimble & durable Bard who can barely hold his lute.

Probably a traveling male Bard with a bit of a womanizer's fault (though you could throw a twist and reverse that with a man-eating female Bard), or alternatively a more...distant personality based on his insight and smarts, taking a third person look at the world and kind of...acting from outside it, so to speak.

Just some ideas.

[taltamir]

why no dex dump eladriel? (as an option mind you, not the best thing mechanically early on, but levels off later)...

low str warriors suck. get a low dex one, buff his dex early on, then get amulet, then get +5 inherant bonus. bam, dex 10. add a +2 amulet (trade down) and you are set for life.

[Eldariel]

why no dex dump eladriel?

The game starts on level 1. You don't want to walk around with AC 7 (or even AC 12 with a Scale Mail), nor with -3 to Initiative.

[Talya]

Probably a traveling male Bard with a bit of a womanizer's fault (though you could throw a twist and reverse that with a man-eating female Bard), or alternatively a more...distant personality based on his insight and smarts, taking a third person look at the world and kind of...acting from outside it, so to speak.

Just some ideas.

I love bards. I'm trying to play something I haven't played before, though...

I'm leaning toward's gnomish beguiler.

[Eldariel]

I love bards. I'm trying to play something I haven't played before, though...

I'm leaning toward's gnomish beguiler.

Know what, care to give Factotum a whirl? You could mostly toss Wis to the wind if you will (or Str if you feel so inclined; either works) and pretty much just derive everything off Int, and...well, do everything!

I personally love Factotums for just the King of All Trades-stamp they're forced to live with, and the amount of variance even within the class. Though Beguiler would certainly be an interesting character too; maybe a Beguiler > Shadowcraft Mage? 'cause Gnome gives Shadowcraft Mage-access and the class is pretty awesome (crafting real spells from shadowstuff? Noice). Or just straight Beguiler.

[taltamir]

The game starts on level 1. You don't want to walk around with AC 7 (or even AC 12 with a Scale Mail), nor with -3 to Initiative.

you don't want to walk around with a max load of 50 either...

Of course, dumping wis or cha is the easiest route.

[Eldariel]

you don't want to walk around with a max load of 50 either...

Actually, you can do that. You just don't want to play an armor-wearing class if you do. Go for a Handy Haversack given the money (use a mule or party Fighter until then) and you'll be fine. I'm playing an Str 4 Gray Elf right now in a PbP and it has yet to be an issue. I mean, what do I need at hands besides spell components, clothes, Haversack and maybe bow ('cause I'm an elf)?

[taltamir]

Actually, you can do that. You just don't want to play an armor-wearing class if you do. Go for a Handy Haversack given the money (use a mule or party Fighter until then) and you'll be fine. I'm playing an Str 4 Gray Elf right now in a PbP and it has yet to be an issue. I mean, what do I need at hands besides spell components, clothes, Haversack and maybe bow ('cause I'm an elf)?

you could do a lot of things... but yea str is not very useful for a wis/sorc

[Vangor]

One absurdly low statistic means, for me, Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, or Artificer, with the low one in Strength. The problem becomes if not Strength, the set of abilities is good enough to permit a more armed or armored character who benefits from a broader array of decent statistics, which includes Archivists and Clerics, but nothing else is reasonable to hamstring this much.

[sofawall]

note: Force of Personality does not apply to all will saves. Glitterdust is still a pain.

[Eldariel]

you could do a lot of things... but yea str is not very useful for a wis/sorc

My point is that Str 5 doesn't mean your character is going to die very soon (or doesn't greatly increase the likelihood anyways); indeed, if the character is not a primary martial combatant, it's entirely doable, without as much as any real issues, even. Dex 5 or Con 5, on the other hand, is a death sentence on level 1.

[Talya]

maybe a Beguiler > Shadowcraft Mage?

That's what I was thinking.

[Keld Denar]

5 Str + Shadow = 33.33333% chance of autodying if you get hit once, dramatically higher if you get hit twice.

I try to never go below Str 8 if I can possibly help it.

EDIT:
And I'd rather go FS Illusionist > ScM than Beguiler > ScM, but thats me...I just think its a more robust and versatile build. You don't need spontaneous Beguiler casting...you already have spontaneous ScM casting!

[Vangor]

note: Force of Personality does not apply to all will saves. Glitterdust is still a pain.

I would nearly houserule Force of Personality to be simply all Will saves, as Steadfast Determination uses Constitution for all Will saves. Of course, the prerequisite and additional benefit muddies the parallel, but Constitution is such a significant statistic anyway compared to Charisma for most.

[Talya]

5 Str + Shadow = 33.33333% chance of autodying if you get hit once, dramatically higher if you get hit twice.

I try to never go below Str 8 if I can possibly help it.

I don't understand this post. Please explain.



I'm really wishing monks didn't suck so bad. I could make a sweet pixie monk with these stats. (17-4 str, 14+8 dex, 14 con, 17+4 wis, 13+6 int, 5+6 cha)

[Keld Denar]

Shadows. They are in the MM. Go look em up.

CR3, Incorporial Touch attack at +3

Damage is 1d6 STRENGTH.

IE, you get hit by one, and your DM rolls a 5 or a 6 (statistically speaking, 1 in 3), and you DIE! No save. Don't pass go, don't collect $200.

Oh, and like 1d4 rounds later...you become one, and eat your friends too.

Ask Saph, she loves shadows. She knows how bad they can wreck a poorly prepared, or even a well prepared party. Lots and lots of (un)dead people...

[Kylarra]

Shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) deals 1D6 strength damage when it attacks. if it rolls a 5 or a 6 (aka 2/6 = 1/3 chance) it'll reduce you to 0 and kill you.

edit: lol ninja'd, but I brought a link to the party. :smallcool:

[Talya]

Ah, the only place i've faced a shadow was in NWN...

[Draz74]

I once played a portly little Gnome Cleric with 3 Dexterity. It was great fun. The awesome that is Cleric can make up for the suck that is a Dex penalty.

He rode around dungeons on a goat, because he was afraid of tripping over his own feet every five steps if he walked.

EDIT:

I'm really wishing monks didn't suck so bad. I could make a sweet pixie monk with these stats. (17-4 str, 14+8 dex, 14 con, 17+4 wis, 13+6 int, 5+6 cha)

So. Pixie Swordsage? With Setting Sun/Tiger Claw maneuvers that actually give you bonuses for being smaller than your opponent? :smallbiggrin:

[Thrawn183]

Favored Soul!

Dump strength and go for a rear lines caster type. You'll have the spells to last all day.

[taltamir]

My point is that Str 5 doesn't mean your character is going to die very soon (or doesn't greatly increase the likelihood anyways); indeed, if the character is not a primary martial combatant, it's entirely doable, without as much as any real issues, even. Dex 5 or Con 5, on the other hand, is a death sentence on level 1.

i got that, this is why I agreed with you.

[Yora]

If I were forced to play a character with a 5 in one ability, I would treat it as a sort of disability and start my character concept with that.
Someone with Con 5 is in a really bad shape and highly unlikely to get out of the house and into the wilderness.
With either Str 5 or Dex 5, the character would likely have some kind of bone or muscle disease. Based on that, I would pick a class that lets him compensate for it, so I would either go with a wizard, sorcerer, or spellcasting only cleric. D&D asumes by default, that you don't have any non-combatants in the group, but I think it might be very fun to play.

[taltamir]

If I were forced to play a character with a 5 in one ability, I would treat it as a sort of disability and start my character concept with that.
Someone with Con 5 is in a really bad shape and highly unlikely to get out of the house and into the wilderness.
With either Str 5 or Dex 5, the character would likely have some kind of bone or muscle disease. Based on that, I would pick a class that lets him compensate for it, so I would either go with a wizard, sorcerer, or spellcasting only cleric. D&D asumes by default, that you don't have any non-combatants in the group, but I think it might be very fun to play.

that is just cool and awesome... reminds me of raistilin...
ok so mild autism would be... which mental stat? I am think wis or cha, not int
super low int would be... dyslexia? (well, wis is common sense and int is book smarts... so... no that is just not right).
For super low dex... parkinsons? or some other shaky hands cause...

Well... actually in retrospect, it doesn't work as well in DnD... because:
1. Those are not a linear scale... a 3 for example is not 3/10th of a 10.
2. If the cause is a disease or even disability, it is cureable... that means once you get the powerful divine magic, you can cure it...

Although, it would be an interesting concept to see if the DM Will let you do number 2... it is a horrible degenerative disease. Congenital, not infectious. A heal spell or maybe a greater restore could remove it and give you a better stat... say, a 10, or maybe at least an 8.

[Saph]

Hey, I'm famous. :P

Anyway, if you want to try a non-caster, how about a Warblade? They benefit quite nicely from high stats, and they're great at level 1. You could either dump Wis (and rely on Moment of Perfect Mind) or dump Cha (and be the stereotypical gruff fighter).

[taltamir]

cha dump: "I kill people because human interaction is too damn hard"... ;p

[AB]

Play a Strongheart Halfling Scout 4/Ranger X with Agile Hunter (or whatever the feat is called). Drop CHA or STR, as you like it.

[Totally Guy]

I'm really wishing monks didn't suck so bad. I could make a sweet pixie monk with these stats. (17-4 str, 14+8 dex, 14 con, 17+4 wis, 13+6 int, 5+6 cha)

Maybe you could multiclass to persue a Sacred Fist PrC. Deliver harm spells to augment the damage.

"That pixie isn't healing people! She's killing them!"

:smallbiggrin:

[Triaxx]

You've come up with a magical 5, and you're not playing a barbarian with an INT of 5? I'm ashamed. :smallbiggrin: Or a Half-Orc Barbarian with an INT of three and a Greatsword. HULK SMASH.

Seriously, were I the DM I'd let you keep that extra one. Or offer a reroll. There's really nothing I have to offer though.

[Talya]

Hey, I'm famous. :P

Anyway, if you want to try a non-caster, how about a Warblade? They benefit quite nicely from high stats, and they're great at level 1. You could either dump Wis (and rely on Moment of Perfect Mind) or dump Cha (and be the stereotypical gruff fighter).



I was actually pondering a warblade before I got up this morning...lesser tiefling warblade perhaps? Or Whisper Gnome? I'm torn...

[Eldariel]

I was actually pondering a warblade before I got up this morning...lesser tiefling warblade perhaps? Or Whisper Gnome? I'm torn...

Lesser Tiefling TWF Warblade/Swordsage dumping Str? Could work out with Shadow Blade (assuming the reading that it replaces Str to damage). I mean, yeah, Shadows drain Str, but there are poisons/creatures draining every ability score anyways so that's a problem you'll have to deal with either way; just getting an ability booster in the dump stat eventually will go a long way, as will good Fort-saves and Touch AC.

And yeah, stats would obviously involve high Dex, Con, Int & Wis, along with your choice of Cha and Str as you see fit (I'd figure you'd rather want high Cha than Str; besides, frontliner with 5 Str being a whirlwind of death is just badass).

[woodenbandman]

I'll make a few suggestions based on the power level of your game.

High Power: Any caster would be a great match for those stats. Halfling Druid bears special mention, because of the feat "Yondalla's Sense" allowing you to more or less dump dexterity.

Medium-high power: Can't go wrong with a beguiler! They're a fun social class with rogue-like elements to it.

Another good alternative is a Binder. Versatility out the butt.

Medium-low power: Hexblade is nice, especially with a splash of Paladin of Tyranny. Saves out the butt!

Low-Power: You could make a wicked archer or melee person with those stats. Of course you could always go for a blaster sorceror.

[Talya]

I am, apparently, allowed flaws.

I'm becoming more enamored of a whisper gnome for race, and am trying to think of how to make a heavy melee fighting type (leaning warblade) out of her... in the unlikely event i dump charisma, i can still take magic in the blood to get more uses out of all my spell like abilities, too.

[Eldariel]

I am, apparently, allowed flaws.

I'm becoming more enamored of a whisper gnome for race, and am trying to think of how to make a heavy melee fighting type (leaning warblade) out of her... in the unlikely event i dump charisma, i can still take magic in the blood to get more uses out of all my spell like abilities, too.

I do wish to again point out that a Dex-focused build dumping Str (or a Wis-dump, which frankly doesn't seem atypical for Gnomes; Moment of Perfect Mind covers the Will-saves, along with Iron Heart Surge to rid you of most of the conditions) are both completely doable. You'll probably want Dex-focus for the melee either way given that they have a Dex-bonus and an Str-penalty

[Talya]

I do wish to again point out that a Dex-focused build dumping Str (or a Wis-dump, which frankly doesn't seem atypical for Gnomes; Moment of Perfect Mind covers the Will-saves, along with Iron Heart Surge to rid you of most of the conditions) are both completely doable. You'll probably want Dex-focus for the melee either way given that they have a Dex-bonus and an Str-penalty

Yes. I was thinking of dumping wisdom.

Going with stats like this:

14-2 str, 17+2 dex, 17+2 con, 14 int, 5 wis, 13-2 cha.

Feats: Weapon Finesse, Magic in the Blood, Two Weapon Fighting
Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap
Stance: Punishing Stance

Flaws: Brash, Shaky

Thoughts?

[Eldariel]

Seems solid though I'd probably dip Swordsage on 3 and pick up Shadow Blade to turbocharge your damage. The low Wis obviously means the level 2 ability isn't very useful, but Dex to damage seems really solid.

And yeah, Silence 3/day is pretti good for a melee type :smallsmile: Not to mention the usual trickery Gnomes are capable of.

[Keld Denar]

The 2nd level of swordsage wouldn't be that bad, even though you don't get +wis to AC. You get a 2nd stance (Assassins Stance allows you to nab the Silencing Strike (RoS) and Staggering Strike(CAdv) feats, which are awesome), along with something like Cloak of Deception which is useful when you want on-demand SA. The 2nd level also doesn't cost you any more IL or BAB loss, which is ideal.

Also, I forget which strike it is, Swooping Dragon maybe? Leaping something maybe? But its 4th level and makes foes Flatfooted against the hit, so that would be awesome for also qualifying for SA to stack on Staggering Strike and/or Silencing Strke.

[Cieyrin]

First a comment on Magic in the Blood, in that I'm not sure how having the feat would get you spell-likes if your Charisma is low, as it only gets you extra uses of your abilities, not allow you to do them if you don't receive them at all, at least from my reading of the feat description.

Anyways, for your build, I'm unfamiliar with what Brash does, so no comment on that part. It otherwise looks pretty decent.

I don't know why you'd want to more than dip a level of Swordsage to pick up Shadowblade, as the only things you're getting is more maneuvers which you have to go through Swordsage's recovery method, a small Init bonus and Weapon Focus (most likely for Shadow Hand to go with Shadow Blade). You miss out on Warblade stuff or get it later if you doddle too long in Swordsage, which would be a shame.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[taltamir]

have you considered asking to average two of the stats?

[Talya]

First a comment on Magic in the Blood, in that I'm not sure how having the feat would get you spell-likes if your Charisma is low, as it only gets you extra uses of your abilities, not allow you to do them if you don't receive them at all, at least from my reading of the feat description.

Anyways, for your build, I'm unfamiliar with what Brash does, so no comment on that part. It otherwise looks pretty decent.

I don't know why you'd want to more than dip a level of Swordsage to pick up Shadowblade, as the only things you're getting is more maneuvers which you have to go through Swordsage's recovery method, a small Init bonus and Weapon Focus (most likely for Shadow Hand to go with Shadow Blade). You miss out on Warblade stuff or get it later if you doddle too long in Swordsage, which would be a shame.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

My Charisma is 11, that's fine for the spell likes. Magic in the Blood will get me 3 uses of each of them daily, and unlike other gnomes, whisper gnomes get useful spell likes.

Brash penalizes armor class against attacks of opportunity (it's the opposite of mobility). If you have tumble, it doesn't matter so much.

[Talya]

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=30355

Bellatrix 'Trixi' Daeglen might be a bit more outgoing than the usual whisper gnome, but the differences really don't begin to show until she joins combat. Usually tossing aside the subterfuge of her people, Trixi throws herself into battle like a wild animal, often seeming to have a deathwish. Some might think it's bravery, until they watch her more closely. It is as you watch her hands trembling when she's lining up someone in the sight of her crossbow that you really begin to see that something is not right. Trixi won't say what happened in her past, but anyone that gets to know her might occasionally get the impression that her sanity is only being held together by a few threads, and one of these days whatever horrors this young gnome has witnessed will rip her apart like her opponents have thus far failed to do.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ex_whisper_gnome.jpg

[Eldariel]

Sounds good. Maybe her past could have something to do with Allips (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm)? 'cause I bet she fears Allips. And that would explain the Wis.

[Cieyrin]

Sounds good. Maybe her past could have something to do with Allips (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm)? 'cause I bet she fears Allips. And that would explain the Wis.

Man, I hate Allips. Under-CRed undead bastards! :smallmad:

[Keld Denar]

If it was damage instead of drain, they wouldn't be quite as bad. But drain is permanent until Restored (via 4th level Restoration or greater magics). Thats so terrible!

[Talya]

So i won't really be able to multiclass swordsage in, neither class is favored for whisper gnomes and the DM is using RAW to a great degree here.

I'm swapping out Magic in the Blood (because I see those Spell-likes as somewhat situational anyway, and the DC is low enough that I can't count on silence to deal with spellcasters until I get silencing strike). Decided I'll take martial study and grab a shadow hand maneuver. At three I can take Martial Stance, then at 6 grab shadow blade. Later on I'll get Assassin's Stance, and everything is perfect.

I'm thinking I'll actually take rogue for levels 2 and 3. Sneak attack, evasion, lots of skills, good reflex save, and when i take warblade 2 at 4, my maneuver can be selected from level 2 choices. And that way my stance at warblade 4 can be level 3 (whereas it would normally be level 1.)

I forgot to note that this isn't so much a campaign as the DM finding copies of tons of old gygax and other classic modules and running us through them. Survivability at every level is paramount (So no, I didn't want a rogue level first for the skill points...the hit points and maneuvers at level 1 are more important! My level 4 ability increase, if i'm alive, will likely be constitution.) We're starting with "Keep on the Borderlands."

[Keld Denar]

*Looks at Keep on the Boarderlands*
*Says prayers for Talya's character to ALL the gods*

[Eldariel]

Hm, couldn't you argue that Rogue & SS are similar enough to both be favored classes for Whisper Gnomes? Frankly, they're so close I can't see why one would be fine and another wouldn't. If you can't though, you could take Feat Rogue-variant and get all the key feats ASAP.

[Talya]

you could take Feat Rogue-variant and get all the key feats ASAP.

I reluctantly like this idea.

Question, the wording on Feat Rogue says it gains Feat progression as a fighter, but loses Sneak Attack.

This would mean that it gets feats at 1,2,4,6...rather than at 1,3,5,7 like the sneak attack feature it replaces, yes?

[Kylarra]

I reluctantly like this idea.

Question, the wording on Feat Rogue says it gains Feat progression as a fighter, but loses Sneak Attack.

This would mean that it gets feats at 1,2,4,6...rather than at 1,3,5,7 like the sneak attack feature it replaces, yes?
That is correct. I don't think it qualifies for weapon spec chain technically though.

[Talya]

I don't think it qualifies for weapon spec chain technically though.

Since I'll be using them to take Martial Stance, and Shadow Blade, that won't really matter much. If I really want Weapon Specialization, I can take it after 6 levels of warblade.

(But I think I'm going Bloodclaw Master if I survive that long.)