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View Full Version : are clearics really better necromancers then "necromancers" (wizard specialist)



taltamir
2009-09-25, 09:20 PM
I have heard, and it seems right, that clerics make better necromancer than the wizard specialists of the same name. is that true?

Keld Denar
2009-09-25, 09:22 PM
2 words....

Rebuke Undead

That is all

Vangor
2009-09-25, 09:24 PM
Being able to Command Undead is terrifically important if significantly powerful, Desecrate is a useful spell which Wizards lack, and I believe Animate Dead or another similar spell is one level earlier for Clerics.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-25, 09:25 PM
I have heard, and it seems right, that clerics make better necromancer than the wizard specialists of the same name. is that true?

Not only that, but Divine Liches, aka Dry Liches, rock 10x harder than regular ones (Walker in the Waste).

Gralamin
2009-09-25, 10:13 PM
They are for a variety of reasons, most of which are based on the idea that "A follower of the God of death/undeath should be better at manipulating undead then a man who merely studied how to do it" more or less. The problem is, the only thing different about Clerics in 3.5 is domains (So a few spells, and usually pretty bad powers, with some exceptions), and so they are all better then wizards. Obviously feats, Items and such can edit it to one side or another.

Yukitsu
2009-09-25, 10:15 PM
There are some specialist wizard variants that can make their undead tougher than clerics can make them, but clerics always win in the numbers department.

DarthCyberWolf
2009-09-25, 10:26 PM
That's what Dread Necromancers and True Necromancers are for.

HCL
2009-09-25, 10:29 PM
That's what Dread Necromancers and True Necromancers are for.

DN is alright. TN is a terrible class

ocato
2009-09-25, 10:39 PM
My 3.5 knowledge isn't as crystal clear as it used to be, but clerics also get access to some nifty undead-y domains, if I recall correctly.

arguskos
2009-09-25, 10:40 PM
Not only that, but Divine Liches, aka Dry Liches, rock 10x harder than regular ones (Walker in the Waste).
Liches (as the MM template) can be divine or arcane, as long as they have the Craft Wondrous Item and a caster level of 11. Just sayin'. :smallwink:

Keld Denar
2009-09-25, 10:43 PM
Deathbound domain, 1.5x as many controlled undead. That is all you need to know. Granted, its also available to any wizard who wants to sink a bunch of ranks into Knowledge: Planes and take the feat Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment)...but the cleric gets it for free! AND REBUKE UNDEAD! Yea, its that important!

Vangor
2009-09-25, 10:45 PM
Other note is Spontaneous Negative Energy for healing undead.

Dixieboy
2009-09-26, 12:23 AM
DN is alright. TN is a terrible class

Isn't True Necro a PC that only gives 8/10 casting and divides it evenly between arcane and divine (4 arcane levels, 4 divine)?

arguskos
2009-09-26, 12:30 AM
Isn't True Necro a PC that only gives 8/10 casting and divides it evenly between arcane and divine (4 arcane levels, 4 divine)?
Something like that, yeah. It's AWFUL beyond words or understanding, let's just say that. :smallcool:

Vangor
2009-09-26, 12:39 AM
Isn't True Necro a PC that only gives 8/10 casting and divides it evenly between arcane and divine (4 arcane levels, 4 divine)?

The True Necromancer has fourteen levels all with spellcasting progression; however, the first and sixth are for arcane strictly and the second and seventh are for divine strictly. Considering the requirements are effectively able to cast second level arcane and divine spells, at level twenty this means level eighth level arcane and divine spells (barring spontaneous casters, but this would be pointless with two spell lists)

While not horrible by any stretch, as the abilities are quite Necromancer centric with permanent desecration, create undead spells, etc., this is generally considered less effective than straight Wizard or Cleric progression due to needing to divide a primary statistic, lacking the absolute power of ninth level spells unless level twenty-two, and delaying attaining spells eventually by a total of five levels. Would be fine as a strict arcane or divine full spell progression, though the abilities might be too strong for this.

Shpadoinkle
2009-09-26, 12:45 AM
If you want a necromancer who commands undead, yeah, clerics are better.

If you want a necromancer who kills with a single spell, wizards are better.

Mojo_Rat
2009-09-26, 01:45 AM
The thing is when players talk necromancy they seem to really focus on Animating Corpses Bit which clerics really have over Wizards in Spades.

Wizard Necromancers seem to be more focused on Snuffing the life out of creatures. Removing their life energy, Fatigue etc.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-26, 01:49 AM
The thing is when players talk necromancy they seem to really focus on Animating Corpses Bit which clerics really have over Wizards in Spades.

Wizard Necromancers seem to be more focused on Snuffing the life out of creatures. Removing their life energy, Fatigue etc.

Going on that basis, UM and Incantatrix on a Wizard owns. Extra metamagic on debuffs = helpless level o enemies :) Though the main disadvantage of debuffcros is they kinda get neutralized at higher levels, or at least their main tricks do. Still, Tier 1 is Tier 1, and truth be told, the best necromancer is probably one with access to circle magic tech.

taltamir
2009-09-26, 04:13 AM
thanks for all the info people, this really helps clarify things.

GreyMantle
2009-09-27, 10:43 AM
The others pretty much got the gist of it down, I'll reiterate:

Clerics make excellent spellcasters who, through the mere investment of a domain or two and some items, can do a lot with animated or created undead.

Dread Necromancers are pretty much the king at making "hordez-o-corpsez" and such.

Wizard Necromancers, like most wizards, are heavily focused on Save or Die spells and neat debuffs. They also have a lot of soul-related magic.

The Revised Necromancer's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) really goes over how to make an excellent D&D necromancer with the rules as they are.

And yeah, True Necromancers really blow.

Volkov
2009-09-27, 10:44 AM
They can both rebuke undead and cast command undead, allowing them to have enormous shambling hordes, especially with the blood domain and in a desecrated area.

sentaku
2009-09-27, 11:58 AM
What no love for the Uttercold Assault Necromancer? Dancing in rings of fire(uttercold) to heal is pure win.

From the old wizards boards:


Originally Posted by K
Uttercold Assault Necromancer (Wizard)
The ultimate goal is to cast spells with the Cold Subtype that do half negative energy damage, while you and all your undead minions are immune to cold and healed by negative energy damage. Basically, this is done with Energy Substitution[cold] (a prereq for Lord of the Uttercold) and the feat Lord of the Uttercold. Then you put up Walls of Fire(uttercold) and you and all your minions dance around in them like Homer Simpson at the American Embassy regaining all your hit points every round and inflicting real evocation-style damage on your enemies. Itís hilarious. You can burn lots of feats and be a blaster mage at high levels, or take Beckon the Frozen to get cold-subtyped undead with Summon Undead that you heal with uttercold, but the essential build is two feats (though you are required to be undead or take Tomb-tainrted Soul if you want in on the fun).

For people who like numbers, look at your favorite Evocation modified by a resonable amount of Sudden or Rod-based Metamagic(or even vanilla metamagic). Then imagine your cold-immune undead like Skeletons or cold-Subbed Zombies like Frost Giants taking 1/2th of that damage each round as healing. A simple thought exercise is the 10th level Wizard with a vanilla Empowered Cold-subbed Fireball: average damage to your enemies is 15d6 (52.5 points of damage), with a save for half, and an average of 26 points of healing for every one of your minions. Makes Inflict look like crap, right?

Now, lets play this excercise with a real blaster mage: A 12th level Sorcerer with the feats from Races of the Dragon that drop metamagic costs and speed metamagic and a Rod-Maximised, Twinned Fireball: a flat 120 points of damage with a save for half and a flat 60 points of healing. Thats not even counting a once per day Sudden Empower for an extra 10d6 (35 damage, save for half, and an extra 17 points of healing).

Even if you don't want to be a blaster mage or don't want to sling together complex battle plans involving Walls of Fire(uttercold) to heal your minions and hurt your enemies, the ability to cast a single Wall of Fire after every combat to heal all your minions and perhaps yourself is an invaluable Necromantic aid.

sonofzeal
2009-09-27, 02:14 PM
Liches (as the MM template) can be divine or arcane, as long as they have the Craft Wondrous Item and a caster level of 11. Just sayin'. :smallwink:
Yes, you can have Lich Wizards. However, the Lich template.... sucks, relative to its LA and the difficulty getting in. On the other hand, there's a Divine-only PrC in Sandstorm, "Walker in the Waste", that lets you turn into a "Dry Lich", a superior version, basically for free. Lich Wizards are suckers, but Dry Lich Clerics are much more dangerous.