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root9125
2009-09-25, 10:56 PM
Hey, all. Long time lurker, first time poster. Tonight, I ran my first ever game. Since everyone playing was more experienced than I, I decided anything I could get my hands on would be really boring to them because they'd have done it a dozen times. I set up a carefully crafted universe (for various values of carefully... had they gone to another city there would have been some rapid fleshing-out) and a plot that they couldn't help but stumble into. It was actually pretty clever (I think so, at least. They ended the session with "that was a great time, man" and spent a lot of time seemingly enjoying themselves), and they took it, hook, line and sinker.

So here they are, off to go stop a cult. Yay. They happen to decide that they can get more information from a member of the cult (easily identified). Well, cool, they're not hard to find... but they stumble upon the BBEG. They distract him using the tendencies all members of the cult show (curiosity when exposed to Law or Good) and sneak up behind him. A monk hits him with Stunning Fist. He's unconscious. They tie him up, take him to a carriage, and steal all his stuff. So they have Summon Undead I - V (Heroes of Horror). Obviously he's a Dread Necromancer (also HoH). He happens to be level 19, already prepared his phylactery to become a lich at the next opportunity.

They steal it. One wears it to bed that night, and wakes up undead. So I roll with it, great, now he's a lich.

That's a hell of a disguise check bonus, isn't it? He takes over leadership of the cult (the people knew their leader would be a lich at this time, but had never seen the lich...). He has dethroned the BBEG, taken over the Big Bad Evil Organization, and (due to some forces THEORETICALLY outside the PC's control) started a world war.

Good thing it was a one shot.

But where did I go wrong? I mean, something is clearly horribly wrong here... but what? Everything I did was following the rules to the letter (as far as I know them).

Radiun
2009-09-25, 10:59 PM
... but they stumble upon the BBEG.

Elaborate on this passage please. Why was the BBEG just wandering around?

Keld Denar
2009-09-25, 11:00 PM
Did you have fun?

Did your players have fun?

Did you consume a lot of Pizza, Mt Dew, and Doritos?

If the answer to all 3 of these questions is yes, then you, my friend, have done everything RIGHT! Congratz!

The_Pyre
2009-09-25, 11:04 PM
Keld Denar is right, of course, but assuming you did not answer the positive to any of those questions:

What level is the party?

Did the BBEG have any escorts or personal bodyguards?

How did they knock the BBEG unconscious so easily?

There are too many variables. More information would be very helpful.

Milskidasith
2009-09-25, 11:05 PM
Err... I don't see how the party member would become a lich just because he carried around the phylactery. Then again, the rules for phylacteries are very... iffy.

Vangor
2009-09-25, 11:06 PM
But where did I go wrong? I mean, something is clearly horribly wrong here... but what? Everything I did was following the rules to the letter (as far as I know them).

You went wrong by assuming you went wrong. The players determined the course of the game and enjoyed themselves in the process. Congratulations, this is what DMing is generally meant to be. An unspoken rule for the players is to stay within certain obvious bounds of exploration to assure the DM is prepared, but the unspoken rule for the DM is to not simply fiat the game. You succeeded.

Lappy9000
2009-09-25, 11:06 PM
I've known a 6th level changeling rogue who took over a city by himself in less than 4 hours.

I've had a party who ended up blowing up a third of a cliffside city and sent it plummeting into the ocean depths.

I've known a player who decided to steal children and bring them into dungeons with her (all five of her individual captives died horrible deaths, including AoE effects, bottomless pits, and boiling mud).

I've had a party that, instead of killing the fallen paladin, knocked him out, dragged him into the Good-aligned town, and "forgot" to tell any on the Good clerics that he had fallen (he's still unconscious). They then murdered a farmhand and stole his horse as they skipped town before the fallen paladin could go on a killing spree.

We've had a party who resisted all plot hooks, and spent an entire session starting a speakeasy/brothel fronted by a bakery in a "dry" town.

*****
What do these scenarios all have in common?
1) None were planned by the DM.
2) Everyone had a blast.

In conclusion, nothing is going wrong! This game is about rolling, so roll with it and make sure it's the most fun your player have ever had :smallcool:

Sir_Elderberry
2009-09-25, 11:07 PM
Wait, how did the phylactery turn the PC undead? Shouldn't it just have regenerated the original BBEG?

root9125
2009-09-25, 11:10 PM
Elaborate on this passage please. Why was the BBEG just wandering around?

Certainly. His evil plan involved murder, and the raising of said murder victims as undead. Lots of murder = lots of hanging around. Especially in the dark alleys of the sketchy part of town, and the PCs chose to look for the nearest member of the evil cult. He was the nearest (I try to keep track of my NPCs in the city and what they're doing at any time).

To reply to how they were able to knock him out, a monk stunning-fist hit him, and he got a 1 on his save. So, he's stunned. Then they beat the fracking hell out of him until he was unconscious. Didn't take long, one of the party is a major munchkin.

So that's what happened, mostly.

greenknight
2009-09-25, 11:10 PM
So here they are, off to go stop a cult. Yay. They happen to decide that they can get more information from a member of the cult (easily identified). Well, cool, they're not hard to find... but they stumble upon the BBEG.

There's your first problem. BBEG generally work best from behind the scenes, not within easy reach of the party. Or when that does happen, it's best to present the BBEG as a harmless NPC or even an ally, until the BBEG is ready to unleash that hideous plan he or she has been working on.


They distract him using the tendencies all members of the cult show (curiosity when exposed to Law or Good) and sneak up behind him. A monk hits him with Stunning Fist. He's unconscious.

Problem #2. Don't make your BBEGs a walkover. Once the characters do get into battle with the BBEG, it should be a momentous occasion. Make sure the BBEG has bodyguards (always), and maybe a few warding magical items and/or spells. For higher level and/or particularly powerful BBEGs, make sure they have some kind of counter to anything the PCs can do, because more than likely the BBEG has had to face all that kind of stuff before...


One wears it to bed that night, and wakes up undead. So I roll with it, great, now he's a lich.

Not sure why that would have happened, since each phylactery is tuned to it's creator. But this could have been an opportunity for you - maybe that BBEG set it up to Trap the Soul of anyone who does just that....

root9125
2009-09-25, 11:11 PM
Wait, how did the phylactery turn the PC undead? Shouldn't it just have regenerated the original BBEG?

No, the original BBEG wasn't a lich yet. The phylactery turned him undead because that's what it was supposed to do. It wasn't SUPPOSED to be around anyone except the BBEG. It was supposed to make him into a lich that night. I assumed magical items work as they're supposed to regardless of outside conditions.

root9125
2009-09-25, 11:14 PM
There's your first problem. BBEG generally work best from behind the scenes, not within easy reach of the party. Or when that does happen, it's best to present the BBEG as a harmless NPC or even an ally, until the BBEG is ready to unleash that hideous plan he or she has been working on.



Problem #2. Don't make your BBEGs a walkover. Once the characters do get into battle with the BBEG, it should be a momentous occasion. Make sure the BBEG has bodyguards (always), and maybe a few warding magical items and/or spells. For higher level and/or particularly powerful BBEGs, make sure they have some kind of counter to anything the PCs can do, because more than likely the BBEG has had to face all that kind of stuff before...



Not sure why that would have happened, since each phylactery is tuned to it's creator. But this could have been an opportunity for you - maybe that BBEG set it up to Trap the Soul of anyone who does just that....


Thank you! See my above post for my reasoning on the phylactery, and remember, I'm new to this. Never even DEALT with a lich before. Didn't know it was tuned to its creator's soul. Didn't think about bodyguards. Didn't really expect this whole encounter to occur, so I really was NOT anticipating having to have a counter for the PCs (also, being a 1-shot, I had no idea what they COULD do).

root9125
2009-09-25, 11:16 PM
Keld Denar is right, of course, but assuming you did not answer the positive to any of those questions:

What level is the party?

Did the BBEG have any escorts or personal bodyguards?

How did they knock the BBEG unconscious so easily?

There are too many variables. More information would be very helpful.

No, I did answer affirmative to all. It was a good time... but no exploration occurred, nor did any plot development (that I expected) so I had to cobble an ending together at the last minute. Think I answered 2 and 3 above, but the party was 6th level and the BBEG was 9th at that time. But it didn't matter, dread necromancers would have an awful fort save all the way up to 19th level.

Vangor
2009-09-25, 11:17 PM
No, the original BBEG wasn't a lich yet. The phylactery turned him undead because that's what it was supposed to do. It wasn't SUPPOSED to be around anyone except the BBEG. It was supposed to make him into a lich that night. I assumed magical items work as they're supposed to regardless of outside conditions.

You are free to determine rules within the campaign, and phylacteries are rather nebulous, but, generally speaking, a phylactery is constructed in a specific manner for a ritual which involves killing oneself. If the phylactery were empowered to cause death to the nearest sleeping individual and house the soul while raising the body and all this, perhaps, but this seems a greater expenditure of power for slightly greater risk.

I wouldn't have my phylactery nearby, Lich yet or otherwise, because of the cost.

root9125
2009-09-25, 11:19 PM
You are free to determine rules within the campaign, and phylacteries are rather nebulous, but, generally speaking, a phylactery is constructed in a specific manner for a ritual which involves killing oneself. If the phylactery were empowered to cause death to the nearest sleeping individual and house the soul while raising the body and all this, perhaps, but this seems a greater expenditure of power for slightly greater risk.

I wouldn't have my phylactery nearby, Lich yet or otherwise, because of the cost.

Yeah, I was extremely unclear on the rules there, so I took a guess and ran with it. That's one point I should learn before running this one again.

Milskidasith
2009-09-25, 11:20 PM
A level 19 character should probably be immune to stunning effects... and a phylactery isn't a *normal* magical item, the ritual involves killing yourself to trap your soul in it, where it recreates you as a lich (over a period longer than a day). Making the monk a lich is just a tad bit odd. Still, if they had fun, roll with it!

Vangor
2009-09-25, 11:35 PM
Didn't really expect this whole encounter to occur, so I really was NOT anticipating having to have a counter for the PCs (also, being a 1-shot, I had no idea what they COULD do).

Any caster should be presumed to possess a few magical protections at any given time, either through persistent spells, simple long durations, or refreshed relatively long durations from lower level slots throughout the day. For casters who are somewhat accessible yet integral to stories, I tend to include Contingency (unless Evocation is restricted, not usually for NPC Wizards), Contigent Spells, Retributive Spells, Quickened Spells, etc..

Any character should be presumed to possess a few magical items which offer protection, immunity, etc., to a variety of effects or useful in a variety of situations.

The character has survived while gaining experience to nearly epic levels. Undoubtedly the character has encountered ambushes and similar where he lacks a few rounds to prepare and often enough against opponents who are all too prepared. Powerful beings do not place themselves in situations to be easily overcome.

greenknight
2009-09-25, 11:54 PM
But it didn't matter, dread necromancers would have an awful fort save all the way up to 19th level.

Good point, which is one reason why any Arcane spellcaster should have an Amulet of Health (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofHealth), if the character can reasonably afford it. Also consider giving the character a suitable Cloak of Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofResistance) to further enhance saving throws. And since spellcasters can be a particular problem in 3e, reading through The Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085) a couple of times will really open your mind up to a few ideas on what to do for and against them.

root9125
2009-09-25, 11:57 PM
Good point, which is one reason why any Arcane spellcaster should have an Amulet of Health (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofHealth), if the character can reasonably afford it. Also consider giving the character a suitable Cloak of Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofResistance) to further enhance saving throws. And since spellcasters can be a particular problem in 3e, reading through The Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085) a couple of times will really open your mind up to a few ideas on what to do for and against them.

Fantastic! Thanks!

And about buff spells... dread necromancers don't have them, but it's no shock to learn that there are magic items to duplicate them.

Worira
2009-09-26, 12:40 AM
What level was this party? I'm having trouble seeing how a low-level party could deal enough damage in one round to take out a 19th level DN, considering the HP and DR 8/-.

Also, the DN's phylactery doesn't work until 20th level.

woodenbandman
2009-09-26, 11:02 AM
That sounds fun but I wouldn't have let the players get away with it, unless they were very high level. Not that I'd just say DM SMASH!, but the players should not have been able to get away with that. Where was the paranoia? The alarm spell warding his bedroom? The traps? High level characters are much harder to sneak up on than that. If they went to sneak up on him, it should have been difficult and harrowing, not funny like it was. If they had snuck up on him after such difficulty, I would have no choice but to tip my hat and say "Good Job, PCs!" but, again, getting there should be difficult. About as difficult as fighting your way there.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-26, 12:30 PM
A level 19 character should probably be immune to stunning effects... and a phylactery isn't a *normal* magical item, the ritual involves killing yourself to trap your soul in it, where it recreates you as a lich (over a period longer than a day). Making the monk a lich is just a tad bit odd. Still, if they had fun, roll with it!

Actually, there are very few protections agasinst stunning that aren't 1 min/level. Well, other than high Fort save.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-26, 12:56 PM
Actually, there are very few protections agasinst stunning that aren't 1 min/level. Well, other than high Fort save.

Actually, at level 13 every Wizard has access to one that lasts hours per level. Nevermind that a level 19 character should have pretty darn good saves.

Even if he nerferd Con, he should still have +6 base +5 Resistance right off the bat, not to mention luck/competence.

Soras Teva Gee
2009-09-26, 02:23 PM
Actually, at level 13 every Wizard has access to one that lasts hours per level. Nevermind that a level 19 character should have pretty darn good saves.

Even if he nerferd Con, he should still have +6 base +5 Resistance right off the bat, not to mention luck/competence.

Name of spell/source?

Also I believe a roll of 1 was mentioned in the setup.

Another_Poet
2009-09-26, 02:38 PM
I agree with others that you did nothing wrong. Sounds like a great session!

I also wonder why the PC turned into a lich. A phylactery allows you to perform the ceremony that makes you a lich, it doesn't suck your soul out and make you a lich on its own. If your player told you it would make his character undead, it was malarkey to try to get free lich status.

That said, I assume the question here is "damn, one PC is a lich, what do I do now?" In which case you must ask your players a question, and their answer will determine one of three routes.

Question:Do you guys want to play an evil campaign, or do you want to fight against evil?

If they want to play an evil campaign: great, they wake up and find that their friend is a lich now and decide to help him take over the evil cult. Put together a team of paladins to be their new nemeses.

If they want to fight against evil: great, they wake up and find their friend (and the phylactery) missing. The player with the lich PC has to roll a new, good-aligned character. The lich becomes an NPC whom you use as the new villain.

If some of them want to be evil and some do not: Alright, tell them you'll try DMing it but you leave it up to them to find a common ground and unite around a cause. Tell them other enemies who have been watching them may want to take advantage of a split in the party. If they can't find an IC reason to work together, follow up accordingly.