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Thoughtbot360
2009-09-26, 12:55 AM
We all love a good dungeon crawl...from the safety of our gametables. But lets say you were (and could, mind you, not much of a market for dragonslayers in the realworld) to decide that you want to actually make a career out of fighting monsters while traversing the disease-ridden countryside of a standard medieval milieu.


So, you have a world full of monsters, some of them strong and frightening enough to make you wonder why humanity hasn't been conquered yet without a major counterbalance, (http://oldguyrpg.blogspot.com/2009/05/food-chain-uber-monsters-and.html) and a fairly inexplicable number of underground complexes for the technology level.

Aside from the obvious (Armor, Spellbooks, whatever it takes to be a Fighter or Paladin instead of a Warrior), what would you take with you, and what would you consider learning?

Some situations that might come up:

-Vampires have for generations lived on the fringes of society ambushing victims on city streets when they were most vulnerable with few witnesses around. Now, however, one vampire clan has actually decided to change the paradigm and attempts to conquer society, hoarding prisoners and plotting to reduce humanity to cattle in the fields and deer in the forest. One of them capture you while you are adventuring, and while you and your fellow cattle outnumber them, they have sealed you in a prison and feeding you at night (because vampires can't really work during the day.) They have stripped you of all possessions they could find, and apparently have some lame-ass permanent anti magic field in place, so you have to rely on your skills alone. What would be nice to know how to do in this situation?

-You need to break into a walled city and rescue a person from a highly guarded keep, with very little manpower and no spells higher than 1st level.

-You've been messed up pretty bad in a recent fight and can not move fast enough to retreat, so you hide while in hostile territory with gnolls searching for you so they can tan your hide. It'll take most the week to recover, so between your injuries and the guards seeking you out, what would help you deal with this situation? How would you avoid it in the first place?

Paulus
2009-09-26, 02:31 AM
We all love a good dungeon crawl...from the safety of our gametables. But lets say you were (and could, mind you, not much of a market for dragonslayers in the realworld) to decide that you want to actually make a career out of fighting monsters while traversing the disease-ridden countryside of a standard medieval milieu.

So, you have a world full of monsters, some of them strong and frightening enough to make you wonder why humanity hasn't been conquered yet without a major counterbalance, (http://oldguyrpg.blogspot.com/2009/05/food-chain-uber-monsters-and.html) and a fairly inexplicable number of underground complexes for the technology level.

Aside from the obvious (Armor, Spellbooks, whatever it takes to be a Fighter or Paladin instead of a Warrior), what would you take with you, and what would you consider learning?

Some situations that might come up:

-Vampires have for generations lived on the fringes of society ambushing victims on city streets when they were most vulnerable with few witnesses around. Now, however, one vampire clan has actually decided to change the paradigm and attempts to conquer society, hoarding prisoners and plotting to reduce humanity to cattle in the fields and deer in the forest. One of them capture you while you are adventuring, and while you and your fellow cattle outnumber them, they have sealed you in a prison and feeding you at night (because vampires can't really work during the day.) They have stripped you of all possessions they could find, and apparently have some lame-ass permanent anti magic field in place, so you have to rely on your skills alone. What would be nice to know how to do in this situation?

-You need to break into a walled city and rescue a person from a highly guarded keep, with very little manpower and no spells higher than 1st level.

-You've been messed up pretty bad in a recent fight and can not move fast enough to retreat, so you hide while in hostile territory with gnolls searching for you so they can tan your hide. It'll take most the week to recover, so between your injuries and the guards seeking you out, what would help you deal with this situation? How would you avoid it in the first place?



I just so happen to enjoy building characters with this exact situational paranoia in mind. As for myself. Well.


For one knowing there are monster in the world would require above all the ability to face them, survival depends upon having the best. Since I know i could never reach the strength potential of some of the large beastiest, I would work for speed, and intelligence above all else. (basically I would be a Factotum- and barring that a Sorcerer, barring that, a monk) Gathering as much information as possible, generalizing as a necessity for the sheer volume of it all. Learning how best to take on foes larger, smarter, or faster than myself. Requiring a reliance on magic, the gods, and my bare hands.

Therefore I would know a smattering of all zoological, religious, and cultural significances. How to face an animal bare handed, a magical beast, a undead, and so fourth. How to do so without coming to harm- which of course would require sneaking as my reluctance to face pain and test just how much HP I have would dominate. Therefore Stealth would be paramount if I am quieter, more patient, and calm, I should be able to survive or avoid anything. Sneak attacking would be the best advantage, if unable to avoid conflict. A straight fight would only lead to me being in more harms way, and above all, more likely to die.

Though, for course, knowing that death meant something solid and assured would lessen my fear greatly. Therefore without such fear to paralyze, the simple assumption of faith and understanding would lead me to forgo conflict but defend the weak and helpless or those more so than myself, which, believing in a god(dess) who thinks the same thing, can give a measure of comfort- one being not alone- and thus afford me at least some favor from the deities. Perhaps in the form of divine healing or miracles if believed in and desperately needed. So. Having a faith and understanding of it would be required.

Of course being that the most powerful weapons one can have in this situation is magic, it would definitely be worth it to learn some. Though if I lacked the Spontaneity and power base that such casters such as Sorcerer's have(which would be preferred), I would need rely on books. And to rely on books is more to carry, therefore instead of a spell book, I would have lightly worded spell scrolls. Possibly written as small as legible and out of sturdy cloth which can be concealed on or in my body of which I can use to prepare spells each morning. This lightens my load and assure that I have a steady source of power from which to rely. My spell selection itself would be absolutely utility driven, as to learn only combat spells as a last resort. Since there is no guarantee on items and such, I would definitely keep to learn spells that were crucial to survival. Be it weather, terrain, or hostile magic.

Also, i would need a absolute source of food, water, and shelter. Which hopefully is magically conjured so as to save me carrying resources. (a survival pouch would be nice, but the spells themselves would be better, knowledge they can not take from me, and those that can, I would more worry about them taking far worse. Like my brain.) Therefore, I would research, with the possible help of the gods, some divine or arcane spells that would grant me as much benefit as possible. and also take into learning ways to USE these spells in any situation, gagged, bound, without air, in a vacuum, drowning, what have you. That being said minimizing my human weaknesses would be at the very most a certain benifit, as such, the Polymorph line of spells would be a godsend. If I need to be bigger, stronger, faster, breath underwater, fly, escape, LIVE- being something WHICH BY NATURE is more likely to do so is the best defense. Therefore, cheese as it may be seen, I wish to live. And this will help me. Further aiding in my ability to use knowledge to my advantage, as I would have knowledge of a wide variety of beings. What better way to combat what threatens you than to become that which threatens you?

...

Vampires. The undead. an understanding of their biology, habits, and traits. What are they vulnerable too? what can I get to kill them with the least amount of risk to myself yet easiest to handle and always have? Well. Sunlight. How do I harness it? Luckily there is a spell for just such an occasion. Also. I need be aware of these goings on by being alert of any news of kidnappings, crime, and danger present in my environment. Therefore I would logically deduce that such thing as possibility that could be responsible. Now, since it is certain that magic is unsuitable, the only answer is indeed stealth, and escape. Be it myself or with others.

Knowing how to pull from the collective knowledge of everyone around me would be useful, hence, knowing a way to communicate with them. And to do so in such a way as to avoid detection if there should be any spies, also a way to differentiate if they are humans or vampires themselves so as to be able to trust them. Since magic is impossible, a material test or logical test would be best suited. In such, asking for divine help in guidance or relying most heavily on my knowledge of the undead themselves to watch everyone for at least a few days to see if I could trust them and also to learn the habits of those who captured me. Once I have enough information and have recovered enough of my strength, I would then set about either to a) overpower my captors and plan a stealthy full break out. or b) formulate a plan to escape myself and return with aid.

the first has the most risk, but if we are sufficiency strong enough in numbers we should be able to subdue and destroy or jailers before an alarm is sounded. By a group effort to tear off it's head and stake it to death via stone or improvised weapons. A gag made from our own clothing would be one of the first weapons, and a Garrot the second. Overwhelm, subdue, and suffocate, or behead. Even if we must slowly chew of the dead thing's neck. It would then be a process of sneaking with the most able members via finding improvised weapons along the way, scouting, waiting, and collective efforts to get out as fast as possible.

When the inevitable RUN FOR IT occurs, i would formulate a group which moves slowly as one mass, strongest on the outset, weakest in the middle, trying to overwhelm through bullrush and imrpovised armor and weapons beyond obstacles. Unless spell casters are met, in which case, preformulated teams led by more capable preselect members would disperse and the chaos that would result should hopefully increase our chances of at least ONE escaping and warning everyone else to bring down the collective fury of the human race upon them. The worst would be facing the losses that would occur and trying to keep up moral and order enough to keep everyone together to follow the plan, for if we are divided, we all die. And if possible, find some way to the surface, and if needed barricade ourselves until reinforcements, day, or we exit the antimagic field. In which case I would use all the spell knowledge and faith at my disposal to get those people to freedom. And then, once prepared, return to destroy them all. Swiftly if possible since our jail break would undoubtedly alert them into trying to move.

The second option would of course require more knowledge, but could be done faster. Assuring everyone, once I was sure I could trust them, that I would be back. In which case I would try and secretly get them to allow me larger shares of their own food, possibly from the fattest or strongest captives other than myself, building further upon my own strength, and then I would borrow as many clothes from them as possible for improvised padded armor, wrapping my own feet to help with moving silently. I would then sneak to sneak out, avoiding any encounter I possibly could, whereby also taking mental maps of everything in case I am recaptured so as to initiate the other plan of a full scale break out. Assuming they recapture me instead of just outright kill me. In the event that I am going to be recaptured of course, I would ditch the clothing, possibly burning it as a barrier against pursuit, and run as much as possible through the place to find exit or gather more information about layout. if outnumbered I will then fall into a song and dance that resembles on mad, or struck dumb, so as to appear less threatening or at the least an accidental escape thereby keeping my most potent weapon - my intelligence- a secret.

This would of course be prefaced by an elaborate story all agreed and learned upon by the other captives to support the theory that I was just some loony people avoided because I stole their food and clothing if I could, so that I could burn it. The fascination with fire would help sell the burning of the clothes and such, needing to 'get out of the dark' as my main excuse for escape, trying to play that I was completely unaware of the fate that awaited me and therefore safe to return to the other captives and punish via being placed in the dark.

However, prevent capture is the most prudent choice. Hence a high sneaking skill, and anything to help with that would be preferable. Obtaining light, and quiet weapons along the way. A dagger, not a sword, A large sword would only slow me down and while more damaging, I need avoid a fight, not prepare for one. so, a light dagger, for sneak attacks as last resort, or for utility. Prying open a door with a cloth covered sturdy dagger, removing henge, picking locks, avoiding patrols, hiding in shadows OUT OF SIGHT even while in sed shadows. Muffling breathing, movement, I would need to be in very fine physical shape indeed to accomplish this. Also, knowledge of traps is a must especially if I am to avoid the most highly traveled areas. And, it would behoove me to learn of the most common occurrence in dungeons anyway.

Patience is a virtue, more so in an instance where I must escape. I have all the time in the world to bypass traps, and scout out an exit, as long as I am not discovered and I previously stock piled food and water, I can survive trying to escape for three days. Making sure to mask my scent in decaying flesh, dirt, or mold, and drinking water even if forced to wait hours for my mouth to fill via drips, if needed. Therefore Stamina is a requirement, and also, sleeping lightly, with ears always on guard, as well as the ability to move and search my way about in absolute darkness. As well as the ability and self discipline to squeeze into dark and dank and absolutely filthy places such as sewer pipes, places my foes would absolutely NEVER go, or think it worth trying to escape through. The dirtier and more risky for disease the better, if I can escape, i would traverse it, because it would mean an out. I would also keep my escape route planned, and have a way out the way I came planned, and if those failed have a way to hide in places thought impossible, thus squeezing beneath, around or even in places not commonly searched. Requiring a great deal of control of body, breath, and temperance as I could be suck for hours.

Next, getting past guards is a sure way to risk capture, therefore looking for unconventional if dangerous ways out works better. Getting past sentient guards is preferred to animal guards, unless the means can be better procured to by pass the lack of intelligence in animals as opposed to the superior intelligence of people. A steak, well placed, better than a rock thrown in a odd direction. Or better, a rat, captured and released to entice the animal guards. height would have to be a non issue. So a good climb skill, jump, run, and hide, and search, spot, listen, and tumble check would be best. I would also have to be able to stomach drinking the blood of rodents and eating their raw meat would bring if I am on the verge of starvation. But, as long as I am not missed, which by means of disguising someone back in the cells as me, or moving a mound of cloth or hay or dirt in my shape every now and then to represent me on sight should buy me at least a day if not two, depending on the arrogance of my captors. of which I would full well know having studied them for at least two days to see how they interact with others, how thorough they are, and above all, keeping up the act or insane quiet pyromaniac easily discounted as weak and helpless if interacted with.

With perhaps back up storywise from people who claim to have known me in town as a shut in, assuming of course they did not shadow me fro a few weeks before kidnapping. In which case they would know full well my potential and not even bother to lock me away for cattle as I would be the riskiest thing to capture, thus I can safely assume they didn't know everything about me if they were willing to treat me like everyone else, or that indeed their arrogance was great enough to count on it. the same goes for the gnoll situation. Following every tenant until i gather full strength and can fight back long enough to escape, or escape outright. Which should only be a case of outdoor escape and concealment until sunrise, or until I have sufficiently escape the antimagic field to formulate armor and weapons from the bark of trees while praying for assistance in my most dire hour of need, and indeed for the lives of all the others captive. Next it would be a matter of returning unseen to a public place, finding authority and power, most likely in a church, and convincing them to help me rally the entire populace to ransack and save everyone.

... but, that's only for the first and last situation.

As for the second situation. First level spells only, highly guarded keep. Walled city. In this situation The fully prepared function is getting IN as opposed to out. In this case, I am very well prepared. So, i would have a plethora of items needs, alchemist fire, maps, rope, stealth gear, magic items -all of which can be stolen and left with a note of return or repayment later- The focus is extraction, so, i can't really answer this very well without knowing full well what my resources are. what exactly is my manpower? What skills? what can I buy? what can I steal? what do I have access to?


On the whole, Two very different situations and very different answers need apply. Can you give me more information on the second -infiltration- problem? or have I blabbered enough?

In any case, hope this helps.

taltamir
2009-09-26, 04:44 AM
well... here is the thing... why are you adventuring? why is killing some goblins and an orc suddenly make you a better wizard, instead of poring over your tomes of magic?

If I was in such a world... cleric or wizard for sure. Maybe paladin.
The cleric / paldin is nice because you can heal yourself, healing is really really important. IRL you can't heal with magic and you get crippled and then maybe killed.
Resurrection is very nice too.

as said, focus on survival... get potions of healing, spells that make you invisible, run run faster, silent, etc...

EDIT: the reason humans are not cattle, is that most races have ONE god, humans have a ton of them... and human adventurers regularly ascend to godhood.
So, when the vampires start REALLY taking over a major city and enslaving humanity, a horde of gods and celestials descends upon them and exterminates them all.

bosssmiley
2009-09-26, 07:54 PM
The Shadow Hunters setting for d20 Modern was exactly this (although a little too Buffy-flavoured for my tastes), as were Unknown Armies, In Nomine, and - arguably - most WoD games.

Why haven't the ubermonsters taken over the world already? The simple answer is:
Human numbers
Organised human opposition
Class levelled characters. The latter (especially) are the antigens our society has developed against ubermonster invasion. For all its cheesy schlockyness "Van Helsing" pretty much was D&D in the (quasi-)real world. Ancient institution dedicated to fighting evil send mysterious hardman and his comedy sidekick to put down rising threat. Ditto "Blade".

Oh, and the break into a castle at level 1 thing. D&D as MI/O11 heist movie (http://superheronecromancer.blogspot.com/2009/04/great-dungeon-caper_19.html). :smallbiggrin:

Thoughtbot360
2009-09-26, 09:42 PM
EDIT: the reason humans are not cattle, is that most races have ONE god, humans have a ton of them... and human adventurers regularly ascend to godhood.
So, when the vampires start REALLY taking over a major city and enslaving humanity, a horde of gods and celestials descends upon them and exterminates them all.

Huh. I thought the reason why human beings weren't cattle was because we take too long to grow up and be worth too little meat while being smart enough to commit suicide if all else fails. In other words, humans (and other sentient humanoids that aren't Jabba the Hutt....and even then I'm not so sure who want to eat any part of him...) make for terrible food animals, and any realistic monster (all of which should totally be supported by some kind of super-ecosystem with biodiversity we just don't have on RL earth) should only really consider us a supplemental food source at best. Sometimes they consider manflesh a delicacy, and sometimes its simply the only thing on the menu and they just don't quite care enough to not eat the little lost kid they found in the woods, so don't worry about the ramifications of 500 different monster species that are all exclusively maneaters: you don't need to take that idea that far.

for the ones that classically do need food that was capable of language, look below.


The thing about vampires and mindflayers is that they are parasites, and can't afford to kill off the host. Vampires can't defend themselves during the day (and trying to take over the world is risky for them), and Mindflayers can Plane shift to harvest brains from a myraid of worlds, but they both have some form of mind control powers ("Look into my eyes..."). Still, their parasitic nature will limit the number of "ranch hands" they have to watch and herd "the cattle."

But seriously, unless you *have* to get brains/large doses specifically from humans or other goody races (yeah thats right, A vampire who hunts warlike Orcs and Bugbears who raid villages at night would probably get on just fine with everyone up to the local Paladin. Kind of like a Crusnik (http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/page/Crusnik+%2F+Krusnik+%2F+Black+Angel) in a world were vampires are universally evil) or at least get periodic uncontrollable cravings for a little more ...sapience...in their diet, then just by getting food from LITERAL cattle, they become no more inherently evil or disruptive to society than a guy who orders a steak in a restaurant. The blood and brains of animals? Oh, the local butcher can hook you up. Trust me, he'll say "take all you want, less work cleaning up the place. Nobody in town is going to pay for that anyway." And even being bitten by a vampire kind becomes just "one of those things."

Of course, that change in biology doesn't stop vampires from ambushing young girls on cold, dark nights. Lest we forget, Jack the Ripper was human, and had no excuse for actions either.

If you say that vampires can only drink from humans on the other hand, well, that frees demihumans to deal with any vampire menace as they please. Would vampires, who would have a small population compared to humans to begin with really want to spend the resources to invade (or counterattack) a people whose blood is useless to them? If you make it more flexible, than there we go right back to why vampires can't drink cow's blood.

If you really want unsympathetic vampires, say that vamps get their substance from negative energy, with blood drinking as a symbolic evil act that recharges that juice.


On the whole, Two very different situations and very different answers need apply. Can you give me more information on the second -infiltration- problem? or have I blabbered enough?

To be honest, I kind of half-assed that one. It was getting late but I felt like giving another example.

Generally, it might've been better if I reworded the question this way:

Let's say you were going to the D&D world to save it (ala the standard plot of oooh, I don't know....A Kid in King Arthur's court, Digimon, MAR, Monster Rancher, the Actual Dungeons and Dragons Saturday morning cartoon.....the movie Galaxy Quest counts, I guess. Only this time, you are actually made aware you're going beforehand. No more of this "Hi. Time to leave your home and family behind with no explanation so you can fight our battles for us because you're the chosen one even though you needed our magic to even get to our world. Hope you don't break down under the pressure and anxiety of being seperated from your loved ones, thanks!" crap. Except for the chosen one bit, its too convient a plot device.) What would you take along(remember, no power grid and your batteries will only last so long.), and what would be useful to learn?

Godskook
2009-09-26, 09:50 PM
Huh. I thought the reason why human beings weren't cattle was because we take too long to grow up and be worth too little meat while being smart enough to commit suicide if all else fails. In other words, humans (and other sentient humanoids that aren't Jabba the Hutt....and even then I'm not so sure who want to eat any part of him...) make for terrible food animals, and any realistic monster (all of which should totally be supported by some kind of super-ecosystem with biodiversity we just don't have on RL earth) should only really consider us a supplemental food source at best. Sometimes they consider manflesh a delicacy, and sometimes its simply the only thing on the menu and they just don't quite care enough to not eat the little lost kid they found in the woods, so don't worry about the ramifications of 500 different monster species that are all exclusively maneaters: you don't need to take that idea that far.

Whale eat krill for sustenance, while bears can survive on bugs. Are you truly arguing that as plentiful and easily killed as humans are(let's face it, without our tool-making and herd instinct, we're easier than pretty much everything), we'd make a poor food source?

deuxhero
2009-09-26, 09:52 PM
@Thoughtbot360
Am I going to one of the worlds where gunpowder becomes dirt?

Paulus
2009-09-26, 11:26 PM
Let's say you were going to the D&D world to save it (ala the standard plot of oooh, I don't know....A Kid in King Arthur's court, Digimon, MAR, Monster Rancher, the Actual Dungeons and Dragons Saturday morning cartoon.....the movie Galaxy Quest counts, I guess. Only this time, you are actually made aware you're going beforehand. No more of this "Hi. Time to leave your home and family behind with no explanation so you can fight our battles for us because you're the chosen one even though you needed our magic to even get to our world. Hope you don't break down under the pressure and anxiety of being seperated from your loved ones, thanks!" crap. Except for the chosen one bit, its too convient a plot device.) What would you take along(remember, no power grid and your batteries will only last so long.), and what would be useful to learn?

If I was going to the D&D world to save it I wouldn't really take anything from this world. All my knowledge in this world and all my skills hardly apply in a D&D world. Things are different there, monsters, magic, faith, items, armor, culture, biology, physics. I would simply need to learn everything I could in the D&D world, which would be everything I've already listed as being needed t survive the two encounters you mentioned. That being said, the best way to prepare for such an occasion would be a good education, a fit body, an open mind, and a strong sense of morals, ethics, and values. Oh. And all the D&D source books. The secrets of their universe in the palms of my hands. MUWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!

Milskidasith
2009-09-26, 11:37 PM
Whale eat krill for sustenance, while bears can survive on bugs. Are you truly arguing that as plentiful and easily killed as humans are(let's face it, without our tool-making and herd instinct, we're easier than pretty much everything), we'd make a poor food source?

Wrong: Humans have more endurance than practically any other animal in terms of long distance running. If you give a human a decent head start on a cheetah, the human can outrun it, then eat it when it collapses. Primitive hunting methods involved chasing animals ranging from gazelle to mammoths with spears until they collapsed, then stabbing their corpses (or herding them off a cliff; either way.)

We aren't only a function of our tools; we're also really damn efficient in hot environments and when we need to put out a high amount of effort constantly (compare a cheetah, that puts out an extreme amount of effort in sprinting... but then it's pretty much exhausted.)

Your argument also ignores the point of his, in that humans are a poor food source precisely for the same reasons bugs and krill are. Krill and bugs are small, incredibly plentiful, and can be repopulated fairly easily and efficiently. Humans are terribly inefficient, take forever to repopulate, and have far less mass compared to the amount of food they eat (and we eat the same meat any predator that ate us could eat, so we are actually competition to them.)

Paulus
2009-09-26, 11:50 PM
Wrong: Humans have more endurance than practically any other animal in terms of long distance running. If you give a human a decent head start on a cheetah, the human can outrun it, then eat it when it collapses. Primitive hunting methods involved chasing animals ranging from gazelle to mammoths with spears until they collapsed, then stabbing their corpses (or herding them off a cliff; either way.)

We aren't only a function of our tools; we're also really damn efficient in hot environments and when we need to put out a high amount of effort constantly (compare a cheetah, that puts out an extreme amount of effort in sprinting... but then it's pretty much exhausted.)

Your argument also ignores the point of his, in that humans are a poor food source precisely for the same reasons bugs and krill are. Krill and bugs are small, incredibly plentiful, and can be repopulated fairly easily and efficiently. Humans are terribly inefficient, take forever to repopulate, and have far less mass compared to the amount of food they eat (and we eat the same meat any predator that ate us could eat, so we are actually competition to them.)

Humans are basically hairless, tailless, clawless, wolves. Which is why so many "primitive" cultures revolved around them and humans being brothers and also why Humans and "dogs" which are just different breeds of wolves, get along so well.

Humans had to physically survive long before their intellect and superior technology allowed them to dominate. People are only seen as weak and defenseless today because we have become so far removed from being forced to survive every single day. Or we too would be is as great a shape as the wolves.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 12:04 AM
Whale eat krill for sustenance, while bears can survive on bugs. Are you truly arguing that as plentiful and easily killed as humans are(let's face it, without our tool-making and herd instinct, we're easier than pretty much everything), we'd make a poor food source?

Both of which reproduce insanely quickly.

It's not that humans can't be killed, it's that we make poor ranched animals, due to our long time to reproduction and maturity. If it takes a human till only age 20, on average, to double reproduction(GL with that), which basically means a human couple having four kids, which still need to be raised at least partially, human infants being pretty helpless.....which means leaving the parents alive for say, another ten years. That's some serious long term planning for the vamps.

Now, what is the consumption rate of the vampires? A human every month? Every week? Every day? If it takes twenty years to double the population, then a vampire that kills a human every week would need to keep around...ooh, well over a thousand of them. For one vampire. This doesn't even get into possible losses from other sources.

Why bother with all that effort?

chiasaur11
2009-09-27, 12:10 AM
Lessee...

Situation #1:

Holy symbol kept where Captain Jack keeps his laser pistol. Vampires have some downright debilitating weaknesses. Shouldn't be too hard.

Number two is a bit tougher, but all you need is to hire an ace bard. Keep them confused, toss in a few charm persons, and then run like heck once someone notices that you weren't the general, and what you took wasn't headlight fluid or elbow grease.

Situation 3?

Never go after gnolls without an emergency exit planned. Ever.

Godskook
2009-09-27, 12:39 AM
Wrong: Humans have more endurance than practically any other animal in terms of long distance running. If you give a human a decent head start on a cheetah, the human can outrun it, then eat it when it collapses. Primitive hunting methods involved chasing animals ranging from gazelle to mammoths with spears until they collapsed, then stabbing their corpses (or herding them off a cliff; either way.)

People outrun cheetahs? Sure, we're great long-distance runners, but that's less 'prey-survival' and more 'scavenger-survival'. Sprint speeds matter more for surviving.

----------------------

As Tyndmyr says, we're lacking in almost all of the useful 'standards' for a creature of our size. We're fleshy and easily wounded, we lack natural weapons, hell, we even lack the ability to handle almost any elements without preperation(we require shade from the sun and clothes from the cold, unlike say a dog, which can survive sub-zero tempuratures). We have exactly 2 things going for us, which is tool making and herd instinct.

Milskidasith
2009-09-27, 12:47 AM
People outrun cheetahs? Sure, we're great long-distance runners, but that's less 'prey-survival' and more 'scavenger-survival'. Sprint speeds matter more for surviving.

----------------------

As Tyndmyr says, we're lacking in almost all of the useful 'standards' for a creature of our size. We're fleshy and easily wounded, we lack natural weapons, hell, we even lack the ability to handle almost any elements without preperation(we require shade from the sun and clothes from the cold, unlike say a dog, which can survive sub-zero tempuratures). We have exactly 2 things going for us, which is tool making and herd instinct.

No, we have more than that. A dog will collapse in a hot environment far faster than we will, because we are very efficient in such an environment (sweat is good for you!). And being a great long distance runner is a strength. That's how we hunted and gathered food. That's how we escaped predators; we ran away. Yes, we aren't physically strong, but we don't need to be when we can run as well as we can, and even basic tools are much better than natural weapons. Hell, just throwing a rock is better than most natural weapons.

EDIT: And of course we've got the whole "Crazy adrenaline fueled feats of strength" thing going for us, which allows us to do some pretty awesome things when our lives are on the line. Like lift cars off people, or rip the tongue out of a cheetah trying to maul you.

Paulus
2009-09-27, 01:01 AM
No, we have more than that. A dog will collapse in a hot environment far faster than we will, because we are very efficient in such an environment (sweat is good for you!). And being a great long distance runner is a strength. That's how we hunted and gathered food. That's how we escaped predators; we ran away. Yes, we aren't physically strong, but we don't need to be when we can run as well as we can, and even basic tools are much better than natural weapons. Hell, just throwing a rock is better than most natural weapons.

EDIT: And of course we've got the whole "Crazy adrenaline fueled feats of strength" thing going for us, which allows us to do some pretty awesome things when our lives are on the line. Like lift cars off people, or rip the tongue out of a cheetah trying to maul you.

Less cheetah mauling please, besides, you are far more apt to be mauled by lions or jaguars. Cheetah's can remove a finger or wreck your hands, but they aren't that strong comparatively, and a good kick will ward them off very well.

Anyway on the topic of human survival, we are not juts great runners, we are great climbers, and can even climb solid shafts with a smooth surface or scale a vertical if not horizontal plane against gravity. Our bodies are also well designed for joint lock systems, basically saying, a full nelson if successfully applied can destroy most of the big predators. If one is strong enough, we also have a natural acute sense of reasoning and the means to suppress 'prey' functions of fear and panic. We also have the capacity for abstract thinking, even if uneducated, which can help a great deal in any situation. And above all the most prominent survival feature of humans, human will.

Again, we had to survive long before we developed technology, tools, or even language. But we did. And we developed them supremely well.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 01:10 AM
People outrun cheetahs? Sure, we're great long-distance runners, but that's less 'prey-survival' and more 'scavenger-survival'. Sprint speeds matter more for surviving.

----------------------

As Tyndmyr says, we're lacking in almost all of the useful 'standards' for a creature of our size. We're fleshy and easily wounded, we lack natural weapons, hell, we even lack the ability to handle almost any elements without preperation(we require shade from the sun and clothes from the cold, unlike say a dog, which can survive sub-zero tempuratures). We have exactly 2 things going for us, which is tool making and herd instinct.

Hmmm? We simply make poor domestic animals. That's entirely different from being weak. Sure, we have specific weaknesses, everything does, but we're not at all bad off overall. Intelligence is much more than herd instinct, for starters.

taltamir
2009-09-27, 01:37 AM
1. humans reproduce fairly quickly
2. humans are the ONLY food source available to many of those magical creatures. Obviously orcs and the like aren't keeping humans as cattle. But many sentient monsters don't have a choice. Like illithids.
3. humans can probably be selectively bred to increase reproduction rate, like any other animal.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 02:32 AM
1. Humans do not reproduce quickly, in comparison with other animals. We typically have only one kid at a time, while many animals have litters. Our offspring are remarkably helpless and require years of raising in order to have any real chance of survival. Plenty of animals dump their young off quickly. Waiting a year to do so is a lengthy amount of time for most. A one year old human isn't going to do terribly well on it's own. Plus, it takes humans a fair amount of time to get to reproductive age.

2. Nope. Illithids only need to consume the brains of sentient creatures. In the world of D&D, humans are far from the only sentient creatures. Also, even in the case where humans are the only or the preferred food source, it may be more efficient to simply gather humans as needed than to arrange a giant human farming operation.

3. Yes. Eventually, within limits. However, our reproduction system is tied to our intelligence, or more specifically, our cranial size. Any modification that removes our food value isn't really going to be considered often.

In short, you need a reason to explain why it's more desirable to farm the humans than to simply take what you need, when you need it(or a bit in advance).

Thoughtbot360
2009-09-27, 02:35 AM
@Thoughtbot360
Am I going to one of the worlds where gunpowder becomes dirt?


I'm going to say.....no?


Whale eat krill for sustenance, while bears can survive on bugs. Are you truly arguing that as plentiful and easily killed as humans are(let's face it, without our tool-making and herd instinct, we're easier than pretty much everything), we'd make a poor food source?

oh? And how "plentiful" are we, really? Whales eat krill because they move as gigantic CLOUD of themselves. I don't know what point your were trying to disprove, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't making it.
In the Southern Ocean, one species, the Antarctic krill, Euphausia superba, makes up an estimated biomass of over 500 million tonnes, roughly twice that of humans. That's one species of. As in one species of krill. Also, I'm pretty sure that as swarm creatures at the bottom of the food chain; they live off of a type of plankton, and every krill is born pretty much expecting to be eaten, if they expect anything from life at all. Same with insects.

It has been noted by many an observer that actually humans are a top predator themselves, that it takes nearly 20 years for a human to grow to full size, and they're only 70 kilograms at that point. (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=28553&sid=6268be80e40e24a8f2ab54b3dc1460f8#28553) Pigs (one of the few animals that switches from a peaceful ranch animal with no natural weapons to a wild boar in a manner of two generations) have large litters, can grow to enormous sizes (the sky's kind of the limit really. Hogzilla (http://digg.com/odd_stuff/World_s_Largest_PIG_a_k_a_Hogzilla_caught_by_11_ye ar_old) clocks in at 476), and reach sexual maturity in 6 to 7 months after being born. Cows take a year and can produce milk before you actually kill them (providing anywhere from 382 kg to 567 of meat depending on breed.) Chickens can lay an egg every 25 hours. There are countless insect species and each of those species breed at a rate that would make Catholic Rabbits on viagra blush.

And its fairly important to note that Pigs (in their non-feral generations) and the other animals have no to very little fear of their breeders and not much brains on how to destroy, escape, be decidedly unprofitable for their captors in any case. They also don't have a fraction of the emotional needs. So yeah. Monsters raiding a human village every so often for some decidely "free ranged" meat? Fine. But, trying to run a human (or halfling, or Dwarf, or heck even Orc) "farm" as a viable industry? I really can only see a creature even trying that if it literally has to for its own survival....and a creature in the specific level straits it has to be in to NEED to have manflesh-on-demand isn't long for the world.)

taltamir
2009-09-27, 02:39 AM
1. Humans can start having children around age 12. They can have a child or two per year, every year, until about 45. Western women choose 1 or 2 children often. But in many countries there are more than a dozen per woman, and they are a year apart unless twins. It is also accompanied by high mortality rate from disease, but that is assumed to be taken care of by careful control and separation by the herders.

2. illithids are a fudgy example, they are one of the few creatures that don't need humans for FOOD, they can eat humans, or anything else with a brain, what they need humans for is reproduction. Illithids can only reproduce by converting humans. Unless, rarely, they infect a humanoid which usually dies but might become a "half-illithid". or rather, half transformed humanoid.
Shades also convert humans, and many others... its less "food" and more "breeding" that they need us for. Vampires need humans as food in DnD but they do NOT breed by converting humans.

3. our cranial size imposes some limitations on our reproduction, true... but so what?. Make us GROW into sexual maturity faster, have twins often (I knew a guy who took a mere 6 generations to get his cows to have 90% twins per birth), begin reproducing faster, grow fatter and larger, etc...
And we wouldn't be THAT smart if raised as wild animals without being taught a language or anything else.


In short, you need a reason to explain why it's more desirable to farm the humans than to simply take what you need, when you need it(or a bit in advance).
Because the pesky things keep on hunting you (to give a human analogy, try to gore you when you hunt them), because they are inferior food animals and shouldn't be allowed to "rule", because farming is much more efficient in producing quantities of food resulting in a greater community of your species, because it is too much work to chase them down, etc etc etc. Basically, same reasons why humans farm domesticated animals instead of hunting down wild ones.

taltamir
2009-09-27, 02:46 AM
Thoughtbot360, I am pretty sure that a domesticated pig and a boar are two different strains of pigs.

Also, I am pretty sure only domesticated chickens lay unfertilized eggs.. and those are not always every 25 hours, it varies, up to 2 weeks for some. Wild chickens only lay fertilized eggs after sex. But domesticated ones have been bred for faster and faster egg laying...

Thoughtbot360
2009-09-27, 03:59 AM
illithids are a fudgy example, they are one of the few creatures that don't need humans for FOOD, they can eat humans, or anything else with a brain, what they need humans for is reproduction. Illithids can only reproduce by converting humans. Unless, rarely, they infect a humanoid which usually dies but might become a "half-illithid". or rather, half transformed humanoid.
Shades also convert humans, and many others... its less "food" and more "breeding" that they need us for. Vampires need humans as food in DnD but they do NOT breed by converting humans.

Ah. Well, thats also a bit of a problem. For these monsters, this makes their relation to the humans kind of sensitive, and some kind of peaceful coexistence (or at least, access to a steady supply of volunteers who want to join the club-and their species is basically a club or cult or somesuch- while doing it on a small enough scale that minimizes unwanted attention from the authorities.) In other words, these monsters basically are humans, if only through a shared threat of extinction between them and the "mere mortals". Such creatures might actually be part of the reason human civilization survives the occasional contact with other ubermonsters with such reliable frequency.... Of course, how the politics of such things work out is anybody's guess.


Thoughtbot360, I am pretty sure that a domesticated pig and a boar are two different strains of pigs.

details. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_boar#Feral_pigs)



Also, I am pretty sure only domesticated chickens lay unfertilized eggs.. and those are not always every 25 hours, it varies, up to 2 weeks for some. Wild chickens only lay fertilized eggs after sex. But domesticated ones have been bred for faster and faster egg laying...

I'm just going to let that one go, but I do have to say this doesn't diminish chickens as a superior ranch animal.

Dervag
2009-09-27, 07:17 AM
Whale eat krill for sustenance, while bears can survive on bugs. Are you truly arguing that as plentiful and easily killed as humans are(let's face it, without our tool-making and herd instinct, we're easier than pretty much everything), we'd make a poor food source?Absolutely. Look, a cow can live on a random patch of grass in the middle of nowhere, weighs half a ton (most of it edible if you're hungry enough), and takes a few years at most to grow to full size.

A human cannot live on grass, and must forage its environment for the relatively few things it can eat. Healthy humans weigh no more than 150-200 pounds, and take twelve to eighteen years to reach full size.

From the point of view of a predator that herds its prey, no contest. The cow gets you five to ten times the payoff, in exchange for a much smaller investment of resources, in something like 10 or 20% the time.

Moreover, dismissing humans' "tool-making and herd instinct" and then saying we'd be easy to kill without it is a really bad idea, because that is part of what we are. It's like saying cows would be easy to kill if they were blind. Sure they would, but it doesn't matter, because they're not blind. They're born with sight... and we're born with the instinct to form tribes and use tools to defend ourselves, even if only using rocks and sticks.

I mean, think about it. In much of the world, "wild" humans live by herding cattle and hunting game. From the point of view of an intelligent carnivore, which is smarter: preying on the herdsman, or taking his herd of cattle and using it for yourself?

The only way to make the idea of 'herding' humans sensible is to create a predator with supernatural powers (so that the humans can't defend themselves) who must prey on intelligent beings because a cow just will not do. And by nature, such a superpredator is going to be rare, because they're preying on a creature that was itself an apex predator until they showed up.
________


Now, what is the consumption rate of the vampires? A human every month? Every week? Every day? If it takes twenty years to double the population, then a vampire that kills a human every week would need to keep around...ooh, well over a thousand of them. For one vampire. This doesn't even get into possible losses from other sources.

Why bother with all that effort?Well, de facto, this is what Dracula and other classical vampires are doing- Dracula sets himself up as feudal overlord over a fairly large population and preys on it whenever he wishes. The difference is that because Dracula has magic powers, there's no point in explicitly sticking his human 'herd' in a stock pen. He doesn't need that advantage over an ordinary mortal in order to take one down when he wants to.

But you'll notice that in most of the literature:
-Vampires are rare; as you note it takes a very large breeding population of humans to sustain one vampire if vampires kill their prey and feed more than once every few years.
-Vampires are associated with the aristocracy. This makes sense, because they tend to occupy the same niche that the aristocracy does in real life: powerful figures who are permitted to do as they please with everyone else in the vicinity, in exchange for the service of stopping anyone else from doing as they please with those people.
-Vampires are often seminomadic; if they don't sit down and rule over one place like Dracula they tend to move around. At some point, people will always get suspicious of them, because they don't fit into society all that well and because people keep dying around them. Sooner or later, like real intelligent carnivores (hunter-gatherer tribes and pastoral cultures), they have to move on to find richer feeding grounds.
________


well... here is the thing... why are you adventuring? why is killing some goblins and an orc suddenly make you a better wizard, instead of poring over your tomes of magic?Because killing some goblins and an orc typically gives you a very intense postgraduate course in combat magic, assuming you don't get your head torn off. The wizards who don't die are the ones who learn how to fight battles and push themselves to the limit.

By contrast, in a no-pressure environment you can read a book about complicated stuff all day and learn practically nothing.

Now, it gets stupid when we imagine that hypothetically you could level up by killing goblins and somehow be better at picking locks even though you never so much as saw a lock, but things should average out over the long run for a well-balanced party if the DM is putting them in situations that actually use their skills.

I think saying "killing monsters => XP => I get more powerful" is oversimplifying the relationship. What's really going on is that you have three types of characters with PC classes:

1)Adventurers who get killed.
For whatever reason, these people don't have what it takes. They're too headstrong to know when to run, or they just do not learn from their mistakes, or they pick fights with things too powerful to handle. Darwin says you won't see very many of those guys around, because they don't last long.

2)Characters who don't adventure.
This makes up most of the population: who would go ogre hunting for a pile of gold unless they were desperate or weird? But the ones who don't adventure (or serve in an army or in some other high-stress, dangerous* line of work) also never fully develop their potential. Or they don't have much potential and don't go looking for trouble because they know it. And so they never become powerful.

*read as "XP-producing"

3)Characters who adventure and do well.
These are the ones who not only have power in their character class, but who have the kind of skills that make powerful people effective: being able to push themselves to the limit when they need to, knowing when to cut their losses, being able to lead, plan, and coordinate their actions, things like that. I don't know if you've ever had a truly good manager, but if you have you'll know what I'm talking about.

The people in group (3) have great potential, and because they tend to be active and efficient, they're likely to end up in situations where they are forced to develop it. Some die of bad luck, of course, but the survivors benefit from a sort of circular logic: they become powerful because they succeed, they succeed because they are increasingly powerful. They wind up stronger than everyone around them because they act faster, plan better, and work harder than others, including others who have the same raw physical and mental power they do.
_______

Although real life isn't as meritocratic as D&D, you still see people like that in reality. For instance, few high-ranking corporate executives are lazy or timid; lazy, timid people don't make it to that rank. Politicians are generally very good at reading people and getting people to do what they want; if they weren't they wouldn't be able to do their job on a day to day basis.

Of course, none of this stops powerful people from being wrong; there are plenty of "active stupid" leaders who climb the ranks by their activity only to screw up royally when they get to the top and have to make all the decisions themselves. And a lot of leaders who don't understand how the game has changed since they got started, or who don't understand the difference between what they do and what the people who work for them do. But they're nearly always good at something, if not what you'd like them to be. And there are certain vices that nearly always get weeded out along the way, like laziness.
______

Applying this to wizards, you get three types:
1)1st and 2nd level wizards who do something stupid like pepper a giant with magic missiles and end up in the stewpot.

2)Low level wizards who lack either the ability or the gumption to become high level wizards, and who spend most of their time fooling around in a lab. They occasionally brew a potion or make a minor magic item to pay the rent... which ends up sucking down the XP they gain from study.

3)High level wizards who mastered their trade fast enough to be effective adventurers. Now you're now dealing with the wizardly equivalent of scientific geniuses who make brilliant discoveries in their twenties. The XP merely serves to represent the fact that they rise quickly to very high levels of power, because they are capable of controlling that power and motivated to acquire it. People without the capability end up in (1) or (2); people without the motivation end up in (2).

Old wizard, bold wizard, powerful wizard: you can have any one of the three, or you can have all three, but you can't have two out of three.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 07:51 AM
Well, de facto, this is what Dracula and other classical vampires are doing- Dracula sets himself up as feudal overlord over a fairly large population and preys on it whenever he wishes. The difference is that because Dracula has magic powers, there's no point in explicitly sticking his human 'herd' in a stock pen. He doesn't need that advantage over an ordinary mortal in order to take one down when he wants to.

And this is likely as much control as any other human-feeding animal would ever want or need. If you are raising thousands of humans...now you have to guard them. And feed/care for them. It becomes a royal pain.

You've got the classical dragon myth of getting sacrifices through fear as well. That way would also work. It's not explicit control over everyone, you just get what you need via coercion. I can see plenty of human feeding animals using this method, either overtly, or covertly through the ruling class.

woodenbandman
2009-09-27, 09:42 AM
Well, if I were to be an adventurer, I would be a Warblade or Swordsage. From a flavor standpoint they're not too impressive, but they're more of my style than any of the supernatural things (God? No. Souls? Eew. Psionics? Mayyybe.). If anything I would be a multiclassed Psion/Warblade/comining prestige class.

EDIT: Seeing as how it is profitable to kill Monster X, I would extensively research the strengths and weaknesses of that monster, as well as related monsters and in fact probably all monsters in general, just to be prepared (I have a great memory). I would learn a variety of fighting styles, and carry a gun AND a crossbow. My weapon of choice, if I could ever learn to master it, would be the Spiked Chain, otherwise I would probably stick to the Lucerne Hammer and Gauntlet.

Otherwise, I would dedicate my skills to learning the art of freerunning. It would allow me to move and confuse my enemies, and escape when stuff goes bad. I want to say that I would learn spring attack, but I'm not sure I could mix that with my huge physique, and I'd probably just go for killing things immediately dead.

For the capture situation, it would be helpful to know how to grow plants without water or dirt, specifically how to grow garlic. To know the shape of a holy symbol, and to have sharp fingernails, would also be good (just carve it into your hand). The ability to hold a psionic focus and use Up The Walls (from what I gather, Psionic Foci are Extraordinary abilities). To know the technique of the Mountain Hammer would be very good as well. In fact, I would use Up the Walls to run up to the ceiling, sunder it, and ferry my fellow cattle out through the roof during the day.

Rescue: Mountain Hammer all the way. Maybe add in Chameleon for hiding (need to get Psy Reformation).

Retreat: Well, I dunno what feats I would have (in all honesty probably not vital recovery), but I would probably want to sneak around a fight I thought was too hard, or metamorph into a total badass if I can.

Maelstrom
2009-09-27, 12:09 PM
1. Humans can start having children around age 12. They can have a child or two per year, every year, until about 45. Western women choose 1 or 2 children often. But in many countries there are more than a dozen per woman, and they are a year apart unless twins. It is also accompanied by high mortality rate from disease, but that is assumed to be taken care of by careful control and separation by the herders.




How is that fast reproduction?

12 years to begin to reproduce, and then. maximum 35 or so offspring over the next 20-30 years. (Pregnancy taking 9 months)

A female pig on the other hand are able to be bred at 11 months, and producing their first litter at 14 months old (pregnancy taking 3 months). Each litter averages around 12 piglets.

No comparison.

Especially when, all things considered, pigs eat pretty much anything and food to weight ratio is well beyond that of a human.

Have to agree that humans, as a typical food source, would make no sense.

TheEmerged
2009-09-27, 01:21 PM
Speaking for my own world? The monsters aren't any more unified than the "normal" races. They work against each other just as badly. The derro are too busy fighting the morlocks and drow, who in turn are too busy fighting the derro... and so on and so forth.

Godskook
2009-09-27, 01:49 PM
I mean, think about it. In much of the world, "wild" humans live by herding cattle and hunting game. From the point of view of an intelligent carnivore, which is smarter: preying on the herdsman, or taking his herd of cattle and using it for yourself?

Preying on the herdsman, for an intelligent carnivore. Feeding on the herd is going to provoke reprisal from the herdsman, who'll then prepare for and be a match for you. Killing the herdsman is far safer, as the cattle aren't going to avenge him.

Thoughtbot360
2009-09-27, 04:59 PM
Preying on the herdsman, for an intelligent carnivore. Feeding on the herd is going to provoke reprisal from the herdsman, who'll then prepare for and be a match for you. Killing the herdsman is far safer, as the cattle aren't going to avenge him.

Except it isn't just the herdsman and his cattle, his neighbors are going to avenge him. If its a manner of wanting ownership over the flock, threatening the herdsman to give you his cattle or face the consequences is also rather safe. If the herder gives in, his only recourse is to send out the town guard to try to track you down-but this also happens if you kill him before taking his herd (Unexplained Murder is attention getting)-so its worth the risk of letting the herdsman have a "choice" between dying and willingly handing over his wallet, er I mean cattle, and the cops deciding its too much trouble to track you down.

Especially if you don't demand so much cattle that you ruin him...no, just stop by several different ranches and take a little. Then repeat it again every year or two. Protection-racket style. A carnivorous monster can build up a nice starting herd with just a few raids. In fact, why do the work of raising the cattle yourself? If you can walk the line between demanding too little and drawing too much attention to yourself, you can let the herdsman do all the work and you just come out of your cave when its time to collect your "cut" (via intimidation or outright theft.)

Wings of Peace
2009-09-27, 05:09 PM
I utter the name Pazuzu three times and wish for a Candle of Invocation, from there I begin the cycle.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 05:10 PM
Extortion is all well and good, but it's hardly raising people like cattle.

Raiding also is more promising the more powerful you are. To someone like an illithid, the idea of massed commoners is probably a joke. Yes, band together with your pitchforks and torches. It makes the rounding up process easier.

taltamir
2009-09-27, 05:13 PM
How is that fast reproduction?

12 years to begin to reproduce, and then. maximum 35 or so offspring over the next 20-30 years. (Pregnancy taking 9 months)

A female pig on the other hand are able to be bred at 11 months, and producing their first litter at 14 months old (pregnancy taking 3 months). Each litter averages around 12 piglets.

No comparison.

Especially when, all things considered, pigs eat pretty much anything and food to weight ratio is well beyond that of a human.

Have to agree that humans, as a typical food source, would make no sense.

1. those creatures have no choice, they must eat humans, or use humans to reproduce, or some other such thing
2. it is much faster than letting the humans choose how often the reproduce. (aka, force them to reproduce as much as possible)

Yahzi
2009-09-27, 08:49 PM
Are you truly arguing that as plentiful and easily killed as humans are(let's face it, without our tool-making and herd instinct, we're easier than pretty much everything), we'd make a poor food source?
Yes. People take too long to grow to maturity. The math simply doesn't work out.

As for the OP: I would be a cleric, and the first thing I would get is friends.

Paulus
2009-09-27, 09:05 PM
1. those creatures have no choice, they must eat humans, or use humans to reproduce, or some other such thing
2. it is much faster than letting the humans choose how often the reproduce. (aka, force them to reproduce as much as possible)

This all assumes they actually can even begin a foundation of a farm without the supreme power of human wizards and such noticing, or you know, the gods. Not to mention other races banding together.

When you do Race vs. race in D&D, especially when there isn't a collective race of monsters banning together in large numbers. You find yourself in a bit of a corner, they will only be able to hide their size, location, and evil deeds for so long... and once it's out of the bag, their will most definitely be nine hells to pay. And probably steps taken to prevent it from ever, ever happening again.

Would be a neat first time thing though, to find a race of being who had the audacity to try. Naturally it's doomed to failure, but boy would it be fun to play through and of course cause that downfall.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 12:53 AM
This all assumes they actually can even begin a foundation of a farm without the supreme power of human wizards and such noticing, or you know, the gods. Not to mention other races banding together.


that what my explicit explanation as to why this wasn't the case in DnD.

gdiddy
2009-09-28, 02:05 AM
Back to the OT,

I would bring 10 things:

1) The Liber 777 (I figure in case I have caster levels, might as well have a decent spell book with some Level nines.)

1a) A Tarot Deck (Which, in my mind, has a 50% chance of becoming a Deck of Many Things. Which I will then sell.)

2) A boomstick. (To deal with AC.)

2a) An elephant gun. (To deal with DR/-.)

3) $10,000 in gold coins

4) A powerful laser pen that can hurt the eyes of anything with darkvision.

5) A full set of 5 kg aircraft Aluminum full plate. (Greater shock absorption, piercing resistance than similar thickness steel)

6) Cigars (For dramatic effect as I rest on a pile of gunned-down foes)

7) An S-7 steel greatsword (Everyone knows that its the best damaging weapon in the game.)

8) Lighters.

9) Kerosene

10) 500 pounds of ground pepper (Remember that Aluminum armor? This pepper is going to make it into +5 Heavy Fortified, Greater Shadow, Greater Silent Moves Plate. Market forces in a medieval society make me win.)

taltamir
2009-09-28, 04:35 AM
I think the idea was if you were born and raised there, not if you could magically teleport into adventuring world... still, interesting concept, especially pepper... why not salt though?

Anyways... some of the problem with the whole "stealth build" and "avoid being hit" is that you are playing as if the rules of this world apply, gimping yourself in the process... in that world you can take multiple swords to the gut, the more you kill things, the more swords you can take. You can be brought back from the dead, you can heal any injury...

As a result, fighting as if you are desperately trying to avoid any injury because IRL it is crippling for life or even lethal doesn't fly. and will make you more likely to die than playing yourself as you would any other class.

Kris Strife
2009-09-28, 05:31 AM
Would we be able to determine/adjust our stats before choosing a class?

But for what I'd take no matter what: D&D books, and this T-shirt (http://http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=QW-CHEATSHEET&Category_Code=QW)

gdiddy
2009-09-28, 09:17 AM
Anyways... some of the problem with the whole "stealth build" and "avoid being hit" is that you are playing as if the rules of this world apply, gimping yourself in the process... in that world you can take multiple swords to the gut, the more you kill things, the more swords you can take. You can be brought back from the dead, you can heal any injury...

As a result, fighting as if you are desperately trying to avoid any injury because IRL it is crippling for life or even lethal doesn't fly. and will make you more likely to die than playing yourself as you would any other class.

Ahh...but my whole character concept revolves around power sneak attacks. However, if I am a mage of some kind, then yes, Invocation candles, celerity, and time stop all the way.

Zen Master
2009-09-28, 09:39 AM
Whale eat krill for sustenance, while bears can survive on bugs. Are you truly arguing that as plentiful and easily killed as humans are(let's face it, without our tool-making and herd instinct, we're easier than pretty much everything), we'd make a poor food source?

You know, I'm quite convinced there is no more horrifying enemy to face - for anything residing on the prime material - than the full, awesome might of the human race.

Truly, the real question isn't how we resist the monsters. It's how any monsters manage to remain alive to this day.

It's funny, really - because when people open their MM, and look at the drow, no one things 'ah, ok - drow are basically all 1 hitdice.' However, everyone seems to assume that's the case with humans.

By virtue of numbers, and numbers specifically of highlevel adventurers, humans are the most powerful force on the prime - and quite possible on the great wheel.

Of course that's all a matter of opinion. Had the topic been another, I'd have argued that the greatest power of all is the sahuagin race.

Paulus
2009-09-28, 01:49 PM
I think the idea was if you were born and raised there, not if you could magically teleport into adventuring world... still, interesting concept, especially pepper... why not salt though?

Anyways... some of the problem with the whole "stealth build" and "avoid being hit" is that you are playing as if the rules of this world apply, gimping yourself in the process... in that world you can take multiple swords to the gut, the more you kill things, the more swords you can take. You can be brought back from the dead, you can heal any injury...

As a result, fighting as if you are desperately trying to avoid any injury because IRL it is crippling for life or even lethal doesn't fly. and will make you more likely to die than playing yourself as you would any other class.

Perhaps... but who wants to take a sword to the gut? Also see-

Let's say you were going to the D&D world to save it (ala the standard plot of oooh, I don't know....A Kid in King Arthur's court, Digimon, MAR, Monster Rancher, the Actual Dungeons and Dragons Saturday morning cartoon.....the movie Galaxy Quest counts, I guess. Only this time, you are actually made aware you're going beforehand. What would you take along(remember, no power grid and your batteries will only last so long.), and what would be useful to learn?

In which case you were taken from this world with your stats, your education, your build, your abilities. OP was asking what you would take with you and what would be handy to have.


NOW. of course I mentioned the exceptions here...

If I was going to the D&D world to save it I wouldn't really take anything from this world. All my knowledge in this world and all my skills hardly apply in a D&D world. Things are different there, monsters, magic, faith, items, armor, culture, biology, physics. I would simply need to learn everything I could in the D&D world, which would be everything I've already listed as being needed to survive the two encounters you mentioned. That being said, the best way to prepare for such an occasion would be a good education, a fit body, an open mind, and a strong sense of morals, ethics, and values. Oh. And all the D&D source books. The secrets of their universe in the palms of my hands. MUWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!


However, if say that whatever force which brought you to the D&D world would be so kind as to auto upgrade you to whatever class you desired at the appropriate level including stats... then i most certainly would be "Playing" something different than stealth. I would absolutely be playing a "gish" and a well armored mobile one at that. Possibly a Sorcadin, Or a Monk/Psywar, or a catfolk bard/sublime chord. gnehehehe!

Zovc
2009-09-28, 04:12 PM
Well, I think of myself as an expert, and assume that I have an intelligence of 13 (I usually put 14 on character sheets for the extra modifier point). If I was actually an adventurer, I'd probably be a Factotum, then a Swashbuckler. Once I learned to cast spells, I'd probably try to learn to use magic better (Spellsword/whatever).

Anyways, Right now, these are the skills I think I would have:
[6 + Int (+1)] * 4 = 28 skill points at level 1
4 Computer Use
4 Climb
4 Repair (Computer Hardware)
2 Repair (Office Machines)
2 Perform (Guitar)
2 Perform (Sing)
2 Gambling
2 Knowledge (Games)
2 Sense Motive
2 Concentration
2 Bluff
1 Autohypnosis
1 Heal

I suppose ranks in computers/work on modern machines would translate into knowledge skills in the "past," possibly a few ranks in survival, and another one in heal. Maybe I'd have Open Lock and/or Disable Device, possibly even Use Magic Device.

Other Stats
At this point in time, I'd give myself an 8-10 for Strength and Dexterity, and a 10 for Constitution, if I knew I was going to be adventuring I am confident I could acheive a 12 in each stat minimum. My dad is a strong man, and my brother has won weightlifting awards, he is practically a racial paragon.

Wisdom, I probably have a 8-10, as well. I'm rather absent minded, but am a rational person--I find it hard to judge my own Wisdom, but I'm not a dunce. My Listen and Spot checks would probably be sub-par, though, that leads me to believe I should have a -1. I'm convinced I have a strong willpower, but I suppose Constitution sort of represents that with Concentration (Iron Will Feat to compensate?).

My Charisma is probably between 10 and 14. Almost every adult I have associated tells me or my parents I'm "a character," and that I have great poise. In social situations, I do notice that I'm easily "overpowered" in conversation, I often have to "wait for my turn" when a friend and I both have an interjection (so no way I'm Mr. 15+).

I wouldn't have anything useful to take with me from the present time. I'd probably try to bring some weapon--a hammer (tool) or some sort of screwdriver is probably the best I could do on short notice... I'd likely try to grab water and/or something I could eat.

If I grabbed a weapon, I'd probably reach for a spear, or whatever weapon I could use to keep people at a distance. I have actually handled a "quarterstaff" before, and am comfortable making striking motions and switching between closer and farther hits. I would (although there is a serious amount of embellishment here) give myself the feat (it's name and source escape me) that lets one use a reach weapon in close quarters. I probably would also carry a longsword and a shield.

As far as armor is concernned, I doubt I would be comfortable in anything restrictive enough to have an armor check penalty. I would maybe put up with Studded Leather or a Chain Shirt, but I'd almost feel less safe by restricting my mobility significantly enough to slow me down.

Adventuring:
Vampires
I'd probably be screwed. First of all, I probably wouldn't know/believe they existed. Probably wouldn't see a stalking vampire coming, and wouldn't be able to fight a vampire off. Assuming I knew they existed, I'd carry any wards possible, be it superstitious or not.

Infiltration
I'd try to gather as much information as I could about the keep. I would not even consider storming it. I'd try my best to infiltrate, get what I need/rescue whoever, and get out in one piece. I'd probably be dead/punished if caught.

Wounded in Enemy Territory
I assume I'm wounded in a city-esque environment. How was I injured? Am I bleeding/bloddy? In other words, will my injuries contribute to me being tacked/smelled? Am I able to try to lose them in the woods? Again, I'm probably toast in the case of an engagement, but so long as I can lay face up and fend with my spear I 'stand a chance' against one guy.

Adventures of choice would likely be ones where I travel with a party of adventurers to clean up goblin/kobold infestations. I'd be prone to accepting a "converted" goblin/kobold into the party, thus potentially getting myself killed in my sleep. XP

The White Knight
2009-09-28, 05:05 PM
3) $10,000 in gold coins

Gold = $991.10 USD/ounce at the time of this posting.
This is $27750.8 USD/pound.
$10,000 USD in gold is thus 0.36 lbs of gold.
In D&D, 50 coins weigh a pound.
Therefore you would have about 18gp. And a copper to tip your banker.

Conclusion: magic is EXPENSIVE.

Disclaimer: assuming D&D gold coins are pure gold, which in all likelihood they are not.

gdiddy
2009-09-28, 05:12 PM
That is why the pepper is coming with me, too. The $10k is just pocket cash. Though honestly, I was going by the current lease the US has in Cuba, where the US government pays 1,000 gold coins a year to Cuba (This works out to roughly $2,000). This was one of the few modern uses of gold coins, so I thought it was more useful than a weight comparison. I was hoping the $10k would net me 5k gp, but in either case, the pepper was going to be my main source of money once I got there.

Yukitsu
2009-09-28, 05:15 PM
Some pocket change, a spool of rope, a hunting bow, a knife, flint, powdered magnesium, a sewing kit, a pad of paper, food and water. Same as when I go hiking (sans bow). May be why I keep scoring ranger on those "what class would you be" tests. Despite that, I'd say I'd want to learn the class of paladin.

In scenario one, I'd probably not have any gear. Best I could hope for is bleeding myself out a bit, then dying when they use me to feed. May be tough. I bled for 36 hours straight once, and only felt a little woozy. Vampire spawn rather than thrall if they don't simply dispose of me, but better than a life of fodder.

Scenario 2, cut a suit out of leaves and twigs and watch the patrol rotations outside the keep. See if I can gnab one napping during the night. Tie him up with rope, pour the powdered magnesium on something sensitive, then light it up. Answer the layout, guard rotations (etc) of the place, or I move on to even more sensitive spots (if you catch my meaning) Stolen uniform may be possible at that point, but I'd try to move around guarded locations anyway, since close inspection would likely reveal that I'm a fake.

Scenario 3, patch myself up best I can and move. You can't stay still when you're being hunted. To avoid that situation, I'd simply have to have avoided contact before reaching my objective.

As an aside, I always try to use far more details and information than this. My best tool is my brain after all.

Kris Strife
2009-09-28, 06:36 PM
Dragon Flame Adept, my first invocation will be Magic Insight, which is an at will, no component Detect Magic/Analyze Dewomer (I can tell if something is magic and what magical effects are on it), that I'll charge the current market price to those who can afford it, so as not to undercut the local wizards, while offering it for free to those who cannot afford it, ie starting adventurers, the poor farm boy who has to sell off his great-grandfather's magic sword but doesn't know what spells are on it, etc, as well as selling the use of my breath weapon to the local blacksmith.

After paying for basic expenses, my remaining cash will be saved up for healing and restoration spells to repair my knee and shoulder, then start buying castings of Wish, Lesser Wish and Miracle to increase my stats permanantly, as well as small but regular donations to the local temples of Pelor, Heronius, Bahamut, and other good aligned dieties.

On top of the previously mentioned T-shirt and source books, I'd also bring several pounds of salt to start my business.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 06:38 PM
Perhaps... but who wants to take a sword to the gut? Also see-


In which case you were taken from this world with your stats, your education, your build, your abilities. OP was asking what you would take with you and what would be handy to have.


NOW. of course I mentioned the exceptions here...



However, if say that whatever force which brought you to the D&D world would be so kind as to auto upgrade you to whatever class you desired at the appropriate level including stats... then i most certainly would be "Playing" something different than stealth. I would absolutely be playing a "gish" and a well armored mobile one at that. Possibly a Sorcadin, Or a Monk/Psywar, or a catfolk bard/sublime chord. gnehehehe!

I only understood the word "gish" there...
sorcadin... a sorcerer paladin? why?
don't even know what a psywar is... i assume you mean a 2 level dip into monk?
why catfolk bard?

anyways, why not cleric, wizard, or druid?

chiasaur11
2009-09-28, 06:45 PM
I'd bring a knife and the seed money to get a ladder.

Separate ladder into ten foot poles, sell poles, buy ladder, repeat until rich.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-28, 09:38 PM
I'd bring giant piles of pennies. Pennies = copper coins.

The D&D world has a much more favorable copper to gold exchange rate than ours does. With a bit of gold, and knowledge of the economic system, I suspect it would be easy to get fabulously wealthy.

Paulus
2009-09-28, 10:21 PM
I only understood the word "gish" there...
sorcadin... a sorcerer paladin? why?
don't even know what a psywar is... i assume you mean a 2 level dip into monk?
why catfolk bard?

anyways, why not cleric, wizard, or druid?

A sorcadin is a Paladin/ sorcerer/ abjurant champion/sacred exorcist mix. Basically another name for a gish, but a specific type.
A psywar is a Psychic Warrior, using my mind power to enhance my body and therefore my monktastic abilities.

Cleric takes sever devotion to a single god. You have to really believe and that just isn't my bag. Wizard takes years and years of research and experience, or so it assumes, time which I will not have. I'd need a place to stay, food, water, and that would mean income. There is no way an off-worlder like myself, even re-equiped with the proper stats could survive long enough to become a wizard, there is simply too much work to be done to even qualify. As opposed to you psychic power generalization which imbues you with powers you never loose regardless of whether or not you read a book that morning. And a druid? weeelll... I do love me some nature, but I love other things just as equally. So my overall devotion to nature I could possibly swing, but then you have the problem of prepared spells again... which you loose if you happen to miss your specific time of day.

Also, why a catfolk bard/sublime chord? Why not? It's awesome!!

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:43 PM
well... if you suddenly gain psychic powers... why not suddenly gain years of learning in wizardry?

Paulus
2009-09-28, 11:21 PM
well... if you suddenly gain psychic powers... why not suddenly gain years of learning in wizardry?

Not really the same thing is it? What I mean by psychic powers is you gain the new found ability to use them. Comparative to a wizard gaining cantrips. You gain the ability, but Psychic powers -as I understand them- are like sorcerer spells in that you learn to cast them through practice and having the inborn ability. Wizards must study for their power, research, and bookwork.

Just not really my bag. Like I said I'd rather be a Sorc, but if I am not gifted with the inborn ability of magic for a sorc, or for a psywar, than I'd go monk or Factotum because those are the closest things to my current RL state.

If I wanted to become a wizard it would at least take me a few years of study, a few years which I wouldn't have. Whereas right off the bat as a Sorc or Psy I'd have power at my finger tips and plenty of time to use and improve it. I'd need a group of friends who didn't mind the sword in the gut so much to back me up... but then, no class in D&D is designed or meant to go it alone.

well... except for factotum. Or your gishs...