[3.5] Gravitational Beam Emitter

[Myou]

I want to make a spell that acts like a penetrating Disintegrate, as if Disintegrate were a line effect that isn't stopped by anything that it's able to disintegrate.

I'm looking for something like the Gravitational Beam Emitter from Blame!, as seen here (http://www.onemanga.com/BLAME/48/28/) and in the following page.


Since I also want to ramp up the power to match that kind of destruction, I think it will have to be a level 9 spell, maybe level 10 (see my epic rules).


So how does this look;

Graviton Lance

Conjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 10
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: 1,000ft./caster level
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Spell Resistance: No

With a colossal blast a thin, white beam springs from your pointing finger, moving at phenominal speed and lasting for barely a tenth of a second, knocking the caster prone with its force. The beam resembles a line effect in shape and area of effect, but is distinct and does not count as a Line for mechanical purposes. Creatures caught in its path may make a reflex save to try to avoid the beam.

Any creature, object or structure struck by the beam takes 2d6 damage per caster level (uncapped) as the beam passes through them. If a target is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell then in passing through the target the beam completely disintegrates whatever part of the target was hit, leaving a hole with a 5ft radius centred on the point at which it struck, not even dust remaining. Creatures subjected to this secondary effect die instantly.

The damage the beam deals if it hits cannot be obviated, altered or avoided by any means.

As the holes left by the beam are of only 5ft in radius the spell disintegrates only part of any very large creature, object or structure targeted, but completely destroys any smaller targets that lie wholly within its path. The beam even effects objects constructed entirely of force, such as Forceful Hand or Wall of Force.

Effects such as Temporal Stasis or Prismatic Sphere that render a target completely invulnerable to all harm stop the beam at that point. To clarify, Wings of Cover gives its caster a +4 bonus to their reflex save but does not stop the beam. The beam ignores antimagic fields as it is not magical in nature.



Too good? Awful?

Reduced it to 2d6, and allowed a reflex save to avoid it. :3
Opps, forgot, conjuration now too.
Added a clause about avoiding the damage, and reworded it to make it clear it's not a ray.
Added line about Regeneration and clarified WoC issue.
Clarified immunity to effects.
Took out line about the beam being stopped.
Simplified the save.
Less range, no longers ignores Stasis and like effects.

[Yora]

By convention, a spell is either a ray-effect and requires a ranged touch attack roll, or it is a line-area-effect that allows a reflex save for half damage. In any event, there has to be one way to avoind damage. There are no attack spells in the entire game, that have a 100% chance to cause full effect.

The reason is this: Every fight would be over in the first round. Whoever gets initiative first kills his enemies with 100% certainty. Who would want to play such a game?

But then again, it will probably take less than 10 minutes until some optimizing wizard player sees this and just laughs, because he knows a method to get immunity against this spell. :smallwink:
Direct damage is generally consered very weak by optimized spellcasters.

[Silverscale]

The ray even effects objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, or Prismatic Sphere. The ray ignores magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

I guess it's ok that it has an effect on things of Force but it should at least be weakened by GoI and AMF. Otherwise the only way to stop it is with a very large very solid object.

[Temet Nosce]

But then again, it will probably take less than 10 minutes until some optimizing wizard player sees this and just laughs, because he knows a method to get immunity against this spell. :smallwink:
Direct damage is generally consered very weak by optimized spellcasters.

It's SR no, no save, untyped damage. Best I can do is an immediate action to get out of the way. It would even go through Wings of Cover I think.

This is the single most powerful damage spell I've ever seen suggested. If it weren't epic, I'd say the entire concept of it is absurd. As is, I'd suggest reducing it to 1d6 per level at least... even then it'll be the best damage spell in the game.

[Yora]

I would make it a 7th level evocation that deals 1d6 point type-less damage per level, capped at 25d6. Long range. Requiring a ranged touch attack to hit a single target.

Or a 7th level evocation that deals the same damage, but as a 5 ft. wide line effect that allows a reflex save for half.

Not really sure about SR though.

[Omegonthesane]

I think the amount of damage it does is fine, given it's a friggin' EPIC spell slot for mere direct damage. However, I agree it should have a ridiculously hard Reflex save to negate outright, and anyone who passes this save explicitly doesn't stop the ray like someone who took the HP damage and lived.

The only other issue is 4000ft per caster level. How in the name of *eff* are you aiming that far?

[Cieyrin]

Well, Disintegrate's reasoning for being Transmutation is that it attempts to convert the matter targeted from a solid object to a fine dust. What you're trying to create here is more of a Conjuration or Evocation, since you want energy to disjoin everything it hits and have it do it in an antimagic field. The Globe of Invulnerability probably doesn't matter, as it wouldn't effect this spell regardless, as it's gonna be higher than 4th level, anyways.

Regardless, if you want it happening in antimagic, you'll have to create the effect so that the effect itself isn't magical, what brought it into effect is. You'll want a line like a Lightning Bolt to hit everything and destroy whatever gets in its way. I'd disagree about no save, as at the levels these things are going off, you got characters with Improved Evasion and sky-high Reflexes going for them that should have the ability to make split-second reactions. Your average tank warrior probably won't be making the save but monks and rogues avoid these sorts of effects without blinking and keep on coming.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'd point you to the actual rules for epic spells, but those kind of suck.

Make it a Line (probably 40'/caster level, not 4000), give it a Save: Reflex Negates, maybe drop the damage to 2d6/level, and definitely make it Evocation. And play this song in your head manually. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VFIfaM1qoI) Then we can talk.

There's a line in the Line description, I think, that already says it only affects things on the other side of walls if it destroys the wall already, so you're set there. Make sure you leave in a clause about it affecting Walls of Force and the like, and...as for Anti-Magic Field, I'd say give it a 25% chance to disjoin the AMF and affect things inside of it, but I'm not really sure on that one.

[Myou]

By convention, a spell is either a ray-effect and requires a ranged touch attack roll, or it is a line-area-effect that allows a reflex save for half damage. In any event, there has to be one way to avoind damage. There are no attack spells in the entire game, that have a 100% chance to cause full effect.

Hmmm, I should add a ranged tough attack, yeah. But how to determine where the line goes if you mis with the touch?


But then again, it will probably take less than 10 minutes until some optimizing wizard player sees this and just laughs, because he knows a method to get immunity against this spell. :smallwink:
Direct damage is generally consered very weak by optimized spellcasters.

Immunity to untyped damage doesn't exist. :smallconfused:


I guess it's ok that it has an effect on things of Force but it should at least be weakened by GoI and AMF. Otherwise the only way to stop it is with a very large very solid object.

Gravitons aren't affected by magic. that would be silly. Unless you're saying AMF blocks gravity. :smalltongue:

To stop it you have to put something in the way that can take the hit.



It's SR no, no save, untyped damage. Best I can do is an immediate action to get out of the way. It would even go through Wings of Cover I think.

This is the single most powerful damage spell I've ever seen suggested. If it weren't epic, I'd say the entire concept of it is absurd. As is, I'd suggest reducing it to 1d6 per level at least... even then it'll be the best damage spell in the game.

Well, what if I require a reflex save instead of no save? It's that or a ranged touch, and the reflex works better with the line shape. It would make some sense. But either way, 1d6 a level is pretty weak, but I could consider 2d6.


I would make it a 7th level evocation that deals 1d6 point type-less damage per level, capped at 25d6. Long range. Requiring a ranged touch attack to hit a single target.

Or a 7th level evocation that deals the same damage, but as a 5 ft. wide line effect that allows a reflex save for half.

Not really sure about SR though.

That sounds like a good idea, but one for a different spell. :3


I think the amount of damage it does is fine, given it's a friggin' EPIC spell slot for mere direct damage. However, I agree it should have a ridiculously hard Reflex save to negate outright, and anyone who passes this save explicitly doesn't stop the ray like someone who took the HP damage and lived.

The only other issue is 4000ft per caster level. How in the name of *eff* are you aiming that far?

Well, the reflex save would, I think, be to take less damage and avoid the giant hold in your chest part.

The idea of the range is to replicate the Gravitational Beam Emitter, which creates 70km holes in solid metal and stone when fired at normal power. I like the way it works - you have to take great care in firing it, because if you, say, fire straight down, you'll be creating a volcano. Under your feet. x3


Well, Disintegrate's reasoning for being Transmutation is that it attempts to convert the matter targeted from a solid object to a fine dust. What you're trying to create here is more of a Conjuration or Evocation, since you want energy to disjoin everything it hits and have it do it in an antimagic field. The Globe of Invulnerability probably doesn't matter, as it wouldn't effect this spell regardless, as it's gonna be higher than 4th level, anyways.

Hmm, that does make sense. I hate to make in Con, but that really is that it is. Oh well. Good call.


Regardless, if you want it happening in antimagic, you'll have to create the effect so that the effect itself isn't magical, what brought it into effect is. You'll want a line like a Lightning Bolt to hit everything and destroy whatever gets in its way. I'd disagree about no save, as at the levels these things are going off, you got characters with Improved Evasion and sky-high Reflexes going for them that should have the ability to make split-second reactions. Your average tank warrior probably won't be making the save but monks and rogues avoid these sorts of effects without blinking and keep on coming.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Well, the idea is that it's firing gravitons, which are not magical. You could also fluff it as firing ions or protons or whatever you like.

And you're right about reflex - it does also fir the manga it's based on.

Thanks for the help so far guys! :smallsmile:

[Myou]

I'd point you to the actual rules for epic spells, but those kind of suck.

Which is why I don't use them. :smallsmile:


Make it a Line (probably 40'/caster level, not 4000), give it a Save: Reflex Negates, maybe drop the damage to 2d6/level, and definitely make it Evocation. And play this song in your head manually. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VFIfaM1qoI) Then we can talk.

Oh no no no, 40ft a level is way to short, hardly epic at all, and this is not evocation at all, it's clearly conjuration as someone said, because it's conjuring gravitons. The reflex negates is in after a fashion though.


There's a line in the Line description, I think, that already says it only affects things on the other side of walls if it destroys the wall already, so you're set there. Make sure you leave in a clause about it affecting Walls of Force and the like, and...as for Anti-Magic Field, I'd say give it a 25% chance to disjoin the AMF and affect things inside of it, but I'm not really sure on that one.

Ah, but it's not a Line effect, it's like one but not, so I thought I should be clear. :3

About AMF, think about Orb of Acid. :smallsmile:

[Temet Nosce]

Yeah, with a reflex save and the damage reduction it's still strong, and one of the best damage spells in the game but the save in particular makes it reasonable. SR no, and untyped damage make it incredibly appealing but it balances out.

Edit: Just realized this is also the perfect sniper spell. At epic levels you could snipe gods with it...

[Myou]

Yeah, with a reflex save and the damage reduction it's still strong, and one of the best damage spells in the game but the save in particular makes it reasonable. SR no, and untyped damage make it incredibly appealing but it balances out.

Edit: Just realized this is also the perfect sniper spell. At epic levels you could snipe gods with it...

Awesome, we agree! ^^

And yes, if you can see far away and aim it that's a great use for it! :D

[DracoDei]

Save line should probably be "Reflex Negates(See Below)".

[Milskidasith]

Actually, there is immunity to untyped damage...

Trollform + Blood of the Martyr = all damage that isn't Acid or Fire is nonlethal. All nonlethal damage = immunity.

Then just cast Energy Immunity and boom: invincible from direct damage, yay!

[Myou]

Actually, there is immunity to untyped damage...

Trollform + Blood of the Martyr = all damage that isn't Acid or Fire is nonlethal. All nonlethal damage = immunity.

Then just cast Energy Immunity and boom: invincible from direct damage, yay!

They still die to Graviton Lance, because whether it be lethal or nonlethal, when it meets their current HP they get disintegrated.


Save line should probably be "Reflex Negates(See Below)".

It's not a traditional save - you have to move. :3

[Milskidasith]

No... because they are immune to nonlethal damage. As in:

If Damage Type = Fire or Acid, Damage type = Fire or Acid.
If Damage Type /=/ Fire or Acid, Damage type = Nonlethal.
If Damage Type = Nonlethal, Damage taken = 0.

[Myou]

No... because they are immune to nonlethal damage. As in:

If Damage Type = Fire or Acid, Damage type = Fire or Acid.
If Damage Type /=/ Fire or Acid, Damage type = Nonlethal.
If Damage Type = Nonlethal, Damage taken = 0.

How are they reducing nonlethal damage to 0?

[Milskidasith]

Blood of the Martyr (Or one of the "Of the martyr" spells, it might not be that one).

[Omegonthesane]

Blood of the Martyr (Or one of the "Of the martyr" spells, it might not be that one).

Cite location please. In that situation I'd rule that you can't use it to negate nonlethal damage that was lethal damage when you were first hit with it. I'm sure a real lawyer can translate the intended meaning of that into legalese.

Also, creatures with Improved Evasion such as mid-level rogues should be able to dodge a graviton beam outright by ducking it without moving to a different square. Sure it's physically impossible to do so, but a lot of things you should be doing at 6th level or higher are physically impossible.

[Myou]

Blood of the Martyr (Or one of the "Of the martyr" spells, it might not be that one).

Ah, Favor of the Martyr. :o

I didn't know about that trick.


Cite location please. In that situation I'd rule that you can't use it to negate nonlethal damage that was lethal damage when you were first hit with it. I'm sure a real lawyer can translate the intended meaning of that into legalese.

http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=4413

Personally, I'd just rule that it doesn't stack with lethal damage immunity. :smalltongue:

[Omegonthesane]

How about Graviton Beam counts as all the damage types in the game for the purpose of DR and Regeneration?

[Myou]

How about Graviton Beam counts as all the damage types in the game for the purpose of DR and Regeneration?

I like the way you think, but fluff-wise that doen't work.

Instead I'll just add a line about negating damage. :3

[Milskidasith]

Even if it counted as all types... it would still only be fire (immune with a spell), acid (immune with a spell), and everything else into nonlethal (immune with a spell).

[Myou]

Even if it counted as all types... it would still only be fire (immune with a spell), acid (immune with a spell), and everything else into nonlethal (immune with a spell).

Not that a sane DM allows tha, but hey, no need to require rule 0 if you don't have to. How's it look now?

[Milskidasith]

Not that a sane DM allows tha, but hey, no need to require rule 0 if you don't have to. How's it look now?

What, immunity to all damage? In a high powered campaign, spending the time making yourself immune to HP damage is generally a waste.

Now it looks better, although this might get tricky with something that blocks anything automatically. Also, how does this interact with Wings of Cover?

[Cieyrin]

No... because they are immune to nonlethal damage. As in:

If Damage Type = Fire or Acid, Damage type = Fire or Acid.
If Damage Type /=/ Fire or Acid, Damage type = Nonlethal.
If Damage Type = Nonlethal, Damage taken = 0.

By RAW this works but by RAMS I'd say such a troll shouldn't be pulling a Cell when they get hit by something that's pulling you apart at a molecular level, more-or-less. The description should definitely include a clause about the damage ignoring all resistances and regeneration, somewhat similar to Flame Strike's holy damage.

[Milskidasith]

By RAW this works but by RAMS I'd say such a troll shouldn't be pulling a Cell when they get hit by something that's pulling you apart at a molecular level, more-or-less. The description should definitely include a clause about the damage ignoring all resistances and regeneration, somewhat similar to Flame Strike's holy damage.

Yeah, it should probably just ignore DR or regeneration, come to think of it... I mean, this can break through effects like Temporal Stasis (or is that an "unstoppable evocation meets unmovable wizard"?), which is kind of odd. Getting past regeneration is fine.

[Myou]

What, immunity to all damage? In a high powered campaign, spending the time making yourself immune to HP damage is generally a waste.

You can do it from level 11 though, and it might be a pointless against batman casters, but aginst most creatures it's pretty overpowered. :smallconfused:


Now it looks better, although this might get tricky with something that blocks anything automatically. Also, how does this interact with Wings of Cover?

Well, since WoC doesn't take the damage but just gives total cover, I'd say this ignores it, but I'd allow it to give the +4 to Reflex.

I better clarify that in the text.

[Myou]

By RAW this works but by RAMS I'd say such a troll shouldn't be pulling a Cell when they get hit by something that's pulling you apart at a molecular level, more-or-less. The description should definitely include a clause about the damage ignoring all resistances and regeneration, somewhat similar to Flame Strike's holy damage.

Done! But what's RAMS? :o


Yeah, it should probably just ignore DR or regeneration, come to think of it... I mean, this can break through effects like Temporal Stasis (or is that an "unstoppable evocation meets unmovable wizard"?), which is kind of odd. Getting past regeneration is fine.

I think the revised text should cover that - it ignores the Temporal Stasis. Is the text clear enough?

Oh, just to make sure it's clear, this is a conjuration effect, not an evocation. :smallsmile:

[Milskidasith]

No, the text change just mentioned regeneration... it didn't do anything. In fact you even got rid of the -10 reflex for being unaware (although that doesn't matter), and now it's... 4000 feet per caster level? That's absurd.

[Myou]

No, the text change just mentioned regeneration... it didn't do anything. In fact you even got rid of the -10 reflex for being unaware (although that doesn't matter), and now it's... 4000 feet per caster level? That's absurd.

Uhhh... the range was always 4000/cl, there was neer a -10 for being unaware (I typed that, but thought beter of it ad took it out before submitting... are you reading my mind?).

The text change I'm referring to is "The beam ignores magical effects that would otherwise stop or interfere with it, such as a globe of invulnerability of Wings of Cover.".

I don't see anything absurd about the range myself.

[Milskidasith]

The -10 on the reflex saves is still there.

And that text is irrelevant. The problem is when you get something that says it can't be obviated by any means, and then have something like Temporal stasis where you can't be hurt by any means.

Instead of "Cannot be obviated by any means" say "this effect ignores any Damage Resistance, Immunity, or Regeneration a creature may have. It is always counted as lethal damage. Effects that make a creature completely unable to be interacted with, such as Temporal Stasis, and the 9th level Power Timeless Body prevent this effect from damaging a creature, and the beam stops on impact with that creature."

[Myou]

The -10 on the reflex saves is still there.

Woah, it is! That must have been a copy+paste error. :smallredface:
So I didn't get rid of it, I just thought I did.

I'm not sure if it should stay now, but I think it should, after giving it some thought. A happy mistake.



And that text is irrelevant. The problem is when you get something that says it can't be obviated by any means, and then have something like Temporal stasis where you can't be hurt by any means.

Ahhh, I see. *Nods.*

"The beam ignores magical effects that would otherwise stop or interfere with it, such as a globe of invulnerability of Wings of Cover, and even effects such as Temporal Stasis that would obviate its effect upon a target. "

That's better, no? ^^

[Milskidasith]

Better, though I'd prefer if something that made you completely immune to all effects made you immune to this; it's nothing special besides really high damage.

[Myou]

Instead of "Cannot be obviated by any means" say "this effect ignores any Damage Resistance, Immunity, or Regeneration a creature may have. It is always counted as lethal damage. Effects that make a creature completely unable to be interacted with, such as Temporal Stasis, and the 9th level Power Timeless Body prevent this effect from damaging a creature, and the beam stops on impact with that creature."

Well, "Cannot be obviated by any means" would preclude DR, immunity ad conversion to non-lethal damage, so why use the more prolix phrasing?

I think the mention of ignoring effects that would otherwise obviate it's own effect sohuld be clear, right?


Better, though I'd prefer if something that made you completely immune to all effects made you immune to this; it's nothing special besides really high damage.

But Timeless Body at least shouldn't stop the bea- aha, I know, it doesn't stop the beam, but does protect you! *Edits again.*

"Effects such as Temporal Stasis that would obviate its effect upon a target function normally, and the beam passes harmlessly through the target (forming a small hole for a moment as it warps space in passing, the hole then vanishing and dealing no damage) and on to strike any further targets in its path."

[Worira]

Why wouldn't it stop the beam?

EDIT: And summoning particles, especially theoretical ones, isn't a good reason for it to be Conjuration. There are plenty of spells that produce light in Evocation, which presumably need to be conjuring photons. In fact, pretty much every spell in Evocation would be Conjuration by that logic.

[Myou]

Why wouldn't it stop the beam?

Because like any material object, gravitons don't just vanish, and the beam has an incredible amount of energy. So even if the target is immune, it bends the targe around the beam to allow the beam through. :smallsmile:


EDIT: And summoning particles, especially theoretical ones, isn't a good reason for it to be Conjuration. There are plenty of spells that produce light in Evocation, which presumably need to be conjuring photons. In fact, pretty much every spell in Evocation would be Conjuration by that logic.

Think of orb of fire vs fireball. One is magical fire, the other material fire.

[Worira]

Then why would any solid object stop it? Particles don't bend around obstructions.

[Myou]

Then why would any solid object stop it? Particles don't bend around obstructions.

Solid objects don't stop it. :smallconfused:

[Worira]

If a target struck by the beam survives the damage, the beam is stopped and no further targets are affected.

Uh, yes they do.

[Myou]

Uh, yes they do.

That would only be if the target completely absorbed the damage, 'soaking up' the particles. It makes sense to me.

[Worira]

Particles do not work that way!

[Myou]

Particles do not work that way!

What about photons being absorbed by black objects? :smallconfused:

But perhaps I should take that bit out. Since gravitons aren't the ame as photons.

[Claudius Maximus]

Would a Divine Shield Stop it? They can even stop Divine Blasts, which have similar penetrating power with regards to spell effects.

I'm also of the opinion that Timeless body and such should stop it. It pretty much makes your molecules unmovable, right? What is more, if this can hit people who are effectively frozen in time, this spell becomes pretty ridiculous when used during a Time Stop.

I also second the call for it to be Evocation.

[Cieyrin]

Done! But what's RAMS? :o

A term coined by sofawall, I'm fairly sure, standing for "Rules As Makes Sense," which is a step beyond RAI, so that despite how the rules make things seem, it applies common sense (uncommon as it sometimes is) to rules situations so that the what situation is resolved fairly.

That's probably a butchered explanation but that's what I got for right now. sofawall can come correct me if he so wishes. *summons sofawall*

[Myou]

Would a Divine Shield Stop it? They can even stop Divine Blasts, which have similar penetrating power with regards to spell effects.

What's Divine Shield? I can't find it. ^^;


I'm also of the opinion that Timeless body and such should stop it. It pretty much makes your molecules unmovable, right? What is more, if this can hit people who are effectively frozen in time, this spell becomes pretty ridiculous when used during a Time Stop.

As it is now, it doesn't hit subjects of Timless Body or anything like that. :3


I also second the call for it to be Evocation.

It's not evocation though! It's conjuration, because these aren't magic gravitons, just like Orb of Fire isn't magic fire! :smallsigh:


A term coined by sofawall, I'm fairly sure, standing for "Rules As Makes Sense," which is a step beyond RAI, so that despite how the rules make things seem, it applies common sense (uncommon as it sometimes is) to rules situations so that the what situation is resolved fairly.

That's probably a butchered explanation but that's what I got for right now. sofawall can come correct me if he so wishes. *summons sofawall*

Makes perfect sense to me. I do that as a DM all the time. :3

[Stormthorn]

What makes you think a graviton travels faster than c?

Also, it shouldnt knock the caster prone unless gravitons happen to ahve mass, in which case they definitly shouldnt be moving faster than c, otherwise they would each have greater than infinite energy.

And it shouldnt allow a reflex save in any event, since at that speed no being could react. If it travels FTL then you would be dead before you were aware of the spell firing.

That was the guy inside me vaguely interested in that science stuff. You could just make it evocation and leave as is and then you can throw the laws of physics out the window completly.


I also second the call for it to be Evocation.

In case you couldnt tell, third'd.

[Myou]

What makes you think a graviton travels faster than c?

Oh, that was just fluff, I'll take that out. I have no idea what speed they'd be.


Also, it shouldnt knock the caster prone unless gravitons happen to ahve mass, in which case they definitly shouldnt be moving faster than c, otherwise they would each have greater than infinite energy.

Gah, physics nazis. x_x
It knocks you prone because that's what happens in the manga, and because it's cool. And because gravitons in this world have a little mass.


And it shouldnt allow a reflex save in any event, since at that speed no being could react. If it travels FTL then you would be dead before you were aware of the spell firing.

Well it didn't have a save, but that made it a little overpowered.
But anyway, I think we can say it's not literally moving at c. In which case it sohuld all make sense.


That was the guy inside me vaguely interested in that science stuff. You could just make it evocation and leave as is and then you can throw the laws of physics out the window completly.

Why does everyone say evocation? Evocation makes no sense here, since this works like an Orb of X, not like a lightning bolt.


In case you couldnt tell, third'd.

Well unless you have some reasoning to back it up, it's not happening. :smallsigh:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well unless you have some reasoning to back it up, it's not happening. :smallsigh:

Peoplw HAVE...:sigh:

[Myou]

Peoplw HAVE...:sigh:

No, they have not. As I keep saying, it's conjuration, because these aren't magic gravitons, just like Orb of Fire isn't magic fire! :smallannoyed:

[Nerd-o-rama]

So...what I'm getting here is you're not looking for game balance, just a way to make an ultimate, unavoidable, unresistable damage spell. That would have been a good clarification to make at the beginning.

And how does this conjure "gravitons" any more than lightning bolt conjures electrons? Generally, regardless of physics, creating an instantaneous blast of a force is considered Evocation. Orb of Fire and the like were just created to give a viable means of attacking into an AMF. Why they thought Wizards needed this, I'm not sure.

[Agmundr]

well as is the only thing that can stop that spell are gods or other epic spell casters with a counter spell readied.

edit: or a terrain feature large enough, like say a mountain... i just might use this one against my players once its all finished.

[Myou]

So...what I'm getting here is you're not looking for game balance, just a way to make an ultimate, unavoidable, unresistable damage spell. That would have been a good clarification to make at the beginning.

What? The school its from has no effect on its power! You're just being needlessly offensive!

It's not unavoidable or unresistable, and I don't see why you're being so rude.


And how does this conjure "gravitons" any more than lightning bolt conjures electrons? Generally, regardless of physics, creating an instantaneous blast of a force is considered Evocation. Orb of Fire and the like were just created to give a viable means of attacking into an AMF. Why they thought Wizards needed this, I'm not sure.

Well by your logic, the orb spells should be evocation. But they are not evocation because that would not make sense. Nor would it make sense for this spell to be evocation.

And 'how does this conjure gravitons'? By conjuring a load of gravitons! It's not a blast of 'force'!


well as is the only thing that can stop that spell are gods or other epic spell casters with a counter spell readied.

Alteratively, just dodge it. It's only 2d6/level anyway, anyone with a good con mod should easily survive it!

[Milskidasith]

The orb spells are the exception, not the rule. They're only there because WoTC thought that Wizards needed a way to go through AMFs and Spell Resistance easily, and didn't care enough to make their damage lower than normal damage spells.

This thing's absurd, and it should be evocation. You know why the school matters? Because actually having something this good in evocation might make somebody consider not dumping it (instead just ditching Enchantment and... I dunno, maybe necromancy if they aren't going for the Enervate route.)

[Myou]

The orb spells are the exception, not the rule. They're only there because WoTC thought that Wizards needed a way to go through AMFs and Spell Resistance easily, and didn't care enough to make their damage lower than normal damage spells.

This thing's absurd, and it should be evocation. You know why the school matters? Because actually having something this good in evocation might make somebody consider not dumping it (instead just ditching Enchantment and... I dunno, maybe necromancy if they aren't going for the Enervate route.)

The problem with the Orb spells is not that they go through AMF, it's that AMF makes almost all other spells fail.

Anyway, fine, whatever, I have ceased to care about what school it is, so congratulation everyone, you have browbeaten me into making it Evocation.

Oh, and what's absurd about it? Or what that just thrown in as another dig at me?

Edit: No, you know what? I like it being conjuration, it makes sense to me even if you don't like it.

[Milskidasith]

It's absurd because whenever we post something that reasonably should change the spell to be weaker, you find some way of making it stronger. Temporal stasis, which prevents anything from happening, lets a hole be made in the creature so it can pass through? We ask for a reflex save, and you make it a -10 if you can't see it? 4000 feet per caster level? No spell resistance and not stopped by an AMF? It's an absurd spell, even if HP damage isn't great.

We aren't trying to insult you personally. Actually, nobody has. But you have to expect criticism when you make a spell like this, or when you make any homebrew. Taking constructive criticism of your spell as a personal insult is not what you should be doing.

Also, the problem with AMF isn't that other spells don't work. That's the entire point of the AMF. The problem is with the orb spells, because they are easy to hit with, ignore most any way of stopping them, and still have damage that is as good as, if not better than other spells... much like yours.

[Temet Nosce]

Edit: No, you know what? I like it being conjuration, it makes sense to me even if you don't like it.

It makes sense to me as well. Conjuration has specific mention of instantaneous duration creation spells being non-magical in addition.

Also, I don't really see why people are picking on the school. You've presented a valid explanation for why it's conjuration, and it's hardly relevant to the balance of the spell.

Regardless, as I noted earlier it seemed perfectly fine to me even then without all the qualifiers (I mean really, why do you need to qualify that a broken trick that renders one immune to all HP damage (well, unless you use Searing Spell) no one uses is bypassed by it? Throw a book at the idiot trying to the use the trick instead - it's more satisfying).

Is there some particular area of the spell you'd like more opinions on? Because to be honest it seems finished to me.

[Myou]

It's absurd because whenever we post something that reasonably should change the spell to be weaker, you find some way of making it stronger. Temporal stasis, which prevents anything from happening, lets a hole be made in the creature so it can pass through? We ask for a reflex save, and you make it a -10 if you can't see it? 4000 feet per caster level? No spell resistance and not stopped by an AMF? It's an absurd spell, even if HP damage isn't great.

*Sigh.* So you think that Temporal Stasis stops line effects? I'm not trying to make it more powerful, and you could have said something about the specific problems rather than just telling me the spell sucks.

You're the first person to complain about the -10. I took it out before you even posted anyway.

What is wrong with the range? You have to be able to directly see your target to aim it, so why is the range an issue?

And the SR: No and no AMF thing shouldn't even be an issue - SR is easily beaten with Assay anyway, and a heavily metamagiced orb deals more damage fired into an AMF/against SR.


We aren't trying to insult you personally. Actually, nobody has. But you have to expect criticism when you make a spell like this, or when you make any homebrew. Taking constructive criticism of your spell as a personal insult is not what you should be doing.

Being rude is insulting.
Criticism doesn't have to be hurtful or agressive, especailly when all someone says is that the spell is stupid.


Also, the problem with AMF isn't that other spells don't work. That's the entire point of the AMF. The problem is with the orb spells, because they are easy to hit with, ignore most any way of stopping them, and still have damage that is as good as, if not better than other spells... much like yours.

You might think that, but I don't. AMF is a badly designed spell that is a poor attempt at reigning in casters by making them useless when it's in effect.


Anyway, I'm sorry I got upset, I'm gonig over the spell now, toning it down a little.

[Myou]

It makes sense to me as well. Conjuration has specific mention of instantaneous duration creation spells being non-magical in addition.

Also, I don't really see why people are picking on the school. You've presented a valid explanation for why it's conjuration, and it's hardly relevant to the balance of the spell.

Oh gods, thank you! :smallsmile:
I was starting to wonder if I was just going insane.


Regardless, as I noted earlier it seemed perfectly fine to me even then without all the qualifiers (I mean really, why do you need to qualify that a broken trick that renders one immune to all HP damage (well, unless you use Searing Spell) no one uses is bypassed by it? Throw a book at the idiot trying to the use the trick instead - it's more satisfying).

Is there some particular area of the spell you'd like more opinions on? Because to be honest it seems finished to me.

Thanks. ^^
I'm taking out some of those qualifiers and such-like.
Thank you for your help. I thought it was finished until the school thing started.

[Cieyrin]

Well, I have a couple more thoughts on the range and effect. Considering that it pierces through targets, does it necessarily have to create a huge hole, as it seems to me that it would just pierce the target and keep going. Looks like an artifact from Disintegrate to me, personally.

On the matter of range, does it necessarily need to be firing for miles on end? As it currently stands, it fires at minimum 20,000 feet or 4ish miles, which everything in the range getting hit by it. Would it possibly be better to just make it long range and effect at minimum 1,200 feet, making it more of a tactical weapon so that you're not killing random NPCs half-way across town (not that random NPCs may still die with this but collateral damage is semi-reduced).

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Myou]

Well, I have a couple more thoughts on the range and effect. Considering that it pierces through targets, does it necessarily have to create a huge hole, as it seems to me that it would just pierce the target and keep going. Looks like an artifact from Disintegrate to me, personally.

On the matter of range, does it necessarily need to be firing for miles on end? As it currently stands, it fires at minimum 20,000 feet or 4ish miles, which everything in the range getting hit by it. Would it possibly be better to just make it long range and effect at minimum 1,200 feet, making it more of a tactical weapon so that you're not killing random NPCs half-way across town (not that random NPCs may still die with this but collateral damage is semi-reduced).

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Well, the collateral, range and hole are all based on the effect in the manga that I wanted it to emulate. Otherwise yes, that would work. :3

[Stormthorn]

Also, I don't really see why people are picking on the school. You've presented a valid explanation for why it's conjuration, and it's hardly relevant to the balance of the spell.

For me its more that if you oging to make a sci-fi feeling spell the gravitons need to act a cerain way or therabouts. If you handwave it and say that its magical gravitons you can do that, but then Evocation seems slightly more fitting.

Wont stop me from firing a Twined Occular Widened version tho.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Still think it's got too many special rules and should just be a regular old Line effect of gravitons, but at least it's more reasonable balance-wise now.

And really, wanting simple, elegant spell descriptions that conform to established archetypes is a matter of taste that I can't state is always objectively better.

[PId6]

There are no attack spells in the entire game, that have a 100% chance to cause full effect.
Magic. Missile.

[Milskidasith]

Magic. Missile.

Shield. (Stupid ten character limit).

[PId6]

Shield. (Stupid ten character limit).
Epic Magic Missile.

[Omegonthesane]

Epic Magic Missile.

[Citation needed] because it isn't SRD.

Also, normal Magic Peashooter allows spell resistance at least.

[PId6]

[Citation needed] because it isn't SRD.

Also, normal Magic Peashooter allows spell resistance at least.
http://images1.fanpop.com/images/quiz/4827_1213032430086_500_228.jpg

[Omegonthesane]

http://images1.fanpop.com/images/quiz/4827_1213032430086_500_228.jpg

That's not a real D&D spell. Although it does need statting up, totally.

[DracoDei]

Has been... totally. (Well, or at least there was noticable progress made toward a decent statting up of it).