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Jergmo
2009-09-26, 01:00 PM
I'm going to be running a lower-level low-magic campaign, and rather than just nerf the crap out of Illithids, I was thinking of giving Elder Brains the axe and making them more solitary/operating in small groups. However, another issue is Psionics.

Illithids are obviously psionic-y, but the question is, do they make sense with arcane spell-like abilities and such rather than just psionics? What do folks actually think about magic and psionics existing side by side?

kamikasei
2009-09-26, 01:06 PM
I don't really understand either question. Why would illithid have to be changed at all? In a low-magic game they're just tougher opponents. What are you worried about regarding psionics? In the core MM they're already statted up with "psionics" which are just a handful of (Sp) abilities.

Jergmo
2009-09-26, 01:14 PM
I don't really understand either question. Why would illithid have to be changed at all? In a low-magic game they're just tougher opponents. What are you worried about regarding psionics? In the core MM they're already statted up with "psionics" which are just a handful of (Sp) abilities.

The problem is that there are fewer higher level folks and they'd be unstoppable as a community with an Elder Brain, which is epic level. And while it says they're psionics, they're actually arcane abilities that are subject to things such as spell resistance and spell immunity, meaning it's magic. There are alternate rules for actually psionic Illithids, but the question is, is it really sensible that psionics and magic exist side by side?

kamikasei
2009-09-26, 01:21 PM
The problem is that there are fewer higher level folks and they'd be unstoppable as a community with an Elder Brain, which is epic level.

Oh, I see. Well, the problem of extremely powerful monsters is present in any game... if you want there to be fewer powerful entities overall, why not just leave mind flayers out? If you feel they're iconic, then yeah, I don't think it'd be a serious problem to portray them as solitary creatures or at least without elder brains.


And while it says they're psionics, they're actually arcane abilities that are subject to things such as spell resistance and spell immunity, meaning it's magic. There are alternate rules for actually psionic Illithids, but the question is, is it really sensible that psionics and magic exist side by side?

Psionics/magic transparency is the default. Running a psionic illithid out of the XPH, it'll still find its abilities subject to SR and the like. And yes, it makes perfect sense to me that psionics and magic exist side by side.

Jergmo
2009-09-26, 01:24 PM
Psionics/magic transparency is the default. Running a psionic illithid out of the XPH, it'll still find its abilities subject to SR and the like. And yes, it makes perfect sense to me that psionics and magic exist side by side.

Ah, now see, I thought they were supposed to have been separate, because there's a different beast altogether with Power Resistance and there's a psionic equivalent of Spell Resistance/Immunity powers.

kamikasei
2009-09-26, 01:30 PM
Ah, now see, I thought they were supposed to have been separate, because there's a different beast altogether with Power Resistance and there's a psionic equivalent of Spell Resistance/Immunity powers.

I'd love to know the root of this error that crops up again and again. The XPH is quite clear that the default assumption is for psionics to work on magic and magic to work on psionics just as they each work on themselves, because the alternative is a lot harder to balance, yet people complain that psionics is broken because you can't use magic against it...

Anyway, yeah, aside from the skills (which personally I'd roll together) and the fact that powers differ from spells in important ways (no counterspelling, no components), you can use dispel magic and dispel psionics interchangeably, spell and power resistance do the same thing, an antimagic field and a null psionics field have the same effect, and psionics is actually weaker against spell/power-level based immunities as an augmented first-level power may cost as much and be as dangerous to the target as a ninth-level spell but will still count as a first-level power for purposes of immunity.

Jergmo
2009-09-26, 01:33 PM
I'd love to know the root of this error that crops up again and again. The XPH is quite clear that the default assumption is for psionics to work on magic and magic to work on psionics just as they each work on themselves, because the alternative is a lot harder to balance, yet people complain that psionics is broken because you can't use magic against it...

*Scratches head* I'm not sure how that view came about, I thought it meant that neither of them have resistance to each other, not that one is more effective against the other.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-26, 01:36 PM
I'd love to know the root of this error that crops up again and again. The XPH is quite clear that the default assumption is for psionics to work on magic and magic to work on psionics just as they each work on themselves, because the alternative is a lot harder to balance, yet people complain that psionics is broken because you can't use magic against it...

Anyway, yeah, aside from the skills (which personally I'd roll together) and the fact that powers differ from spells in important ways (no counterspelling, no components), you can use dispel magic and dispel psionics interchangeably, spell and power resistance do the same thing, an antimagic field and a null psionics field have the same effect, and psionics is actually weaker against spell/power-level based immunities as an augmented first-level power may cost as much and be as dangerous to the target as a ninth-level spell but will still count as a first-level power for purposes of immunity.

It is a flsvor issue. Flavor-wise Magik (yes with the k letter) and Psionics are different so it is assumed they shouldn't interact.

Personally that always resonates like Bull to me, but then I always liked the idea that while separate they are equal.

sofawall
2009-09-26, 01:58 PM
*Scratches head* I'm not sure how that view came about, I thought it meant that neither of them have resistance to each other, not that one is more effective against the other.

SR resists powers, PR resists spells.

Happy?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-26, 02:23 PM
I'd love to know the root of this error that crops up again and again. The XPH is quite clear that the default assumption is for psionics to work on magic and magic to work on psionics just as they each work on themselves, because the alternative is a lot harder to balance, yet people complain that psionics is broken because you can't use magic against it...

It's because in prior editions, Psionics Is Different was the default. It's only a variant now, but anyone who's used psionics pre-3e will most likely assume it's the standard.

FMArthur
2009-09-26, 02:39 PM
The mistake occurs because so many things in psionics are made to accommodate campaigns without psi-magic transparency, since they clearly thought it would be a common houserule or the default rule changed during the writing process. So we wind up with powers and abilities and monster entries that phrase things in ways that suggest nontransparency, and the existance of Power Resistance at all is as strong a nudge in that direction as there could be without saying it.

It's only stated otherwise in one easily-missable section. I know I wouldn't go to that section on my first time through the EPH - psionics is so easily explained that you don't need much more than a class and a list of powers to fully understand it.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-26, 03:13 PM
Removing the Elder Brain's from Illithid society also opens up other possibilities, aside from being (on a society level) a way of limiting them slightly. Simply put, a lot of Illithid behaviour is, or seems to be to me, directly the result of the Elder Brain's guidance. Without it, perhaps they have the chance to be slightly less... morally predictable?

If nothing else, it suggests a change in Illithid society that could, should you be interested, provide an interesting point to develop and build upon.

On an individual level, leave Illithids as they are, I'd say (or perhaps use the explicitly Psionic build, for extra MIND POWER flavour).

Jergmo
2009-09-26, 03:18 PM
Removing the Elder Brain's from Illithid society also opens up other possibilities, aside from being (on a society level) a way of limiting them slightly. Simply put, a lot of Illithid behaviour is, or seems to be to me, directly the result of the Elder Brain's guidance. Without it, perhaps they have the chance to be slightly less... morally predictable?

If nothing else, it suggests a change in Illithid society that could, should you be interested, provide an interesting point to develop and build upon.

On an individual level, leave Illithids as they are, I'd say (or perhaps use the explicitly Psionic build, for extra MIND POWER flavour).

The Illithids follow the guidance of the Elder Brain because they think it will further their own goals and power, because they believe (incorrectly) that they will persist after joining with the Elder Brain - the Elder Brain just devours their minds to add to its own power. To quote an Eldathyn text from an FR game "What future do these self-serving individuals have in the service of their self-serving gods?" However, that is a neat idea.

Johel
2009-09-26, 03:40 PM
As Kamikasei and the others have said, Psionic is just yet another kind of magic. Treat it as such.

For the "power" problem, I think I get your problem : no kingdom should be able to stop Illithids to do as they are pleased if the biggest heroes are 5th level and if most of said heroes aren't spellcasters.

Solution :
The Illithids are a cursed race.
A brain-rotting disease has already killed most, if not all, Elder Brains.
This significantly slows down the maturation process of larvae and endangers the species as a whole, as the overwhelming knowledge that Elder Brains passed to larvae is now largely lost, forcing Illithids to directly teach the larvae. This process is rather inefficient but it's better than nothing.
The number of Alhoons is much greater now as, without a Elder Brain to merge with, Illithids fear death and try to avoid it.
The lack of central authority has shattered their society, as individual schemes, paranoļa and fear of death went out of control. Most Illithids are now true loners, searching a way to either extend their life or cure the disease and transform themselves into Elder Brains.
As a race, they aren't a cohesive threath anymore, though the survivor remained dangerous psionics and spellcasters.

Blacky the Blackball
2009-09-26, 03:57 PM
Watch the Doctor Who episode "Planet of the Ood".

That is all.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-09-26, 04:09 PM
Watch the Doctor Who episode "Planet of the Ood".

That is all.

But Illithids don't throw up their brains and hold them in their hands. :smallamused:

...somebody stat up the Ood!

Volkov
2009-09-26, 04:22 PM
Just axe them and everything else that isn't a humanoid, giant, monstrous humanoid, or an animal.

Jergmo
2009-09-26, 05:01 PM
Just axe them and everything else that isn't a humanoid, giant, monstrous humanoid, or an animal.

...What fun would that be?

Starshade
2009-09-26, 05:05 PM
If i remember correct, each Illithids get 2 tadpole offspring each, and "most dies". If only one of them survive to adulthood, the race get larger in numbers. Literally, that would mean they are doomed to extinction by default since if "most" mean more than 50% they slowly dies out.

but: make out of them what fits your world. Its your game! :smallsmile:

Make them, say, anything you need: ancient evil bound by the last Great Magi when the magic was more powerfull, sacrificing themself to bind the creatures underground. Or they could be different than ordinary Illithids, with no interest in surface at all. Or close to extinction due to issues as wars with Duergar.

Jergmo
2009-09-26, 05:22 PM
Ah, I just remembered another issue; what about Alhoons? It's mentioned that while rare there can be undead with the Psionic subtype, is there some way that a psionic caster can become a lich? Maybe their Psicrystal can act as a phylactery of sorts?

Craft Universal Item?

Johel
2009-09-26, 05:29 PM
Ah, I just remembered another issue; what about Alhoons? It's mentioned that while rare there can be undead with the Psionic subtype, is there some way that a psionic caster can become a lich? Maybe their Psicrystal can act as a phylactery of sorts?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/overview.htm#undeadPsionicCreatures
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/callerInDarkness.htm
It's undead
It's psionic

Also, I think the Alhoons keep their psionic abilities.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Alhoon_lich

Alhoons combine powerful wizardry and sorcery with their innate skill at psionics to become a new threat to the established order of the Underdark and beyond.

Volkov
2009-09-26, 06:02 PM
...What fun would that be?

It's easier and it makes the place low magic.

AslanCross
2009-09-26, 06:05 PM
There is a lower-CR Elder Brain called the Thoon Elder Brain. It's in MM5.
The entry says it's a good low-level alternative to using the CR 25 Elder Brain in Lords of Madness. It's still CR 15, though.

Cieyrin
2009-09-26, 06:16 PM
Also, I think the Alhoons keep their psionic abilities.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Alhoon_lich

A quick check of Lords of Madness confirms that Alhoons do indeed keep their psionics.

On the matter of the Caller, I don't think that's what he's looking for, as he'd stop being himself and would become a Caller, rather than maintain his manifester levels. Personally, I don't see why a psionic character couldn't be a psionic lich, just some reflavoring and it should work fine, I'd say. Craft Universal Item would probably be the way to go, as well.

kamikasei
2009-09-26, 06:25 PM
A statement that "psionic undead creatures are rare" is not a rule that says a character can't be both psionic and undead. Having to have a caster level makes being a psionic lich problematic (using the normal lich template, at least, as opposed to a specifically psionic variant), but I know of nothing that would prevent, say, a Necropolitan psion from being an entirely legal character.

Sophismata
2009-09-26, 07:21 PM
Arguably, becoming Elan is preferable to the wretched state of Lichdom that many arcane casters choose :smallsmile:.

Volkov
2009-09-26, 07:25 PM
Arguably, becoming Elan is preferable to the wretched state of Lichdom that many arcane casters choose :smallsmile:.

Becoming a Lich has many perks. Looking like a badass skeleton is one of them.

Jergmo
2009-09-26, 07:44 PM
Becoming a Lich has many perks. Looking like a badass skeleton is one of them.

Oh, yeah. Alhoons look awesome.

Cieyrin
2009-09-26, 08:02 PM
Arguably, becoming Elan is preferable to the wretched state of Lichdom that many arcane casters choose :smallsmile:.

But becoming an Elan means you lose all your hard-won experience up to that point, which seems to be counter-productive to me.

Sophismata
2009-09-26, 09:11 PM
But becoming an Elan means you lose all your hard-won experience up to that point, which seems to be counter-productive to me.

Possibly. I've always found the idea fascinating, particularly since I used to play MUDs where in order to progress beyond the maximum level, you'd have to reincarnate as a level 1 adventurer.

Consequently, I think Elans are awesome. I guess the idea of a continuous struggle for power appeals to me more than simply residing at the top of the (proverbial) food chain.

Cieyrin
2009-09-26, 09:44 PM
Possibly. I've always found the idea fascinating, particularly since I used to play MUDs where in order to progress beyond the maximum level, you'd have to reincarnate as a level 1 adventurer.

Consequently, I think Elans are awesome. I guess the idea of a continuous struggle for power appeals to me more than simply residing at the top of the (proverbial) food chain.

Well, if you put it that way, it's kinda similar to how humans used to dual class in 2nd Ed. and earlier, where you'd leave your last class. All in all, yeah, if that's your goal, becoming an Elan (or a Dragonborn, I do believe) could definitely be for you.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-26, 10:19 PM
Becoming an elan also means that you must start as human. That kind of leaves out a LOT of characters.

At least necropolitans only need to be humanoids. Slightly less exclusivity.