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taltamir
2009-09-27, 01:07 AM
Is being a lich worth it? sure, the abilities are nice, but don't you gain an LA? (also, sucks for you if you have a godly con score).

is there any other such transformation?

anything that doesn't require you to give up on your humanity and maybe even something for good characters? (i think i remember hearing about "baelnorns" or some such)

Paulus
2009-09-27, 01:18 AM
Is being a lich worth it? sure, the abilities are nice, but don't you gain an LA? (also, sucks for you if you have a godly con score).

is there any other such transformation?

anything that doesn't require you to give up on your humanity and maybe even something for good characters? (i think i remember hearing about "baelnorns" or some such)

Aside from all the were temples? Erm, the various blood type temples, Dragon... fiend... but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for. or is it?

arguskos
2009-09-27, 01:31 AM
Baelnorns have rules in the Monsters of Faerun booklet. They're 3.0 and hard to track down, but they are there. It's really nothing to write home about though, they just make you a "good lich" with a few abilities replaced with more "good friendly" ones.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-27, 01:33 AM
My vote goes for Walker in the Waste if you want lichdom. Do it right and become a nigh-unkillable dry lich, and if possible, snag a swarm template to go with it (REALLY unkillable then).

arguskos
2009-09-27, 01:34 AM
My vote goes for Walker in the Waste if you want lichdom. Do it right and become a nigh-unkillable dry lich, and if possible, snag a swarm template to go with it (REALLY unkillable then).
Eh... why bother? Standard liches are QUITE capable of being utterly unkillable. I'll grant that being a swarm is great for survival, but really, if you have a phylactery, you're all good.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-27, 01:35 AM
Eh... why bother? Standard liches are QUITE capable of being utterly unkillable. I'll grant that being a swarm is great for survival, but really, if you have a phylactery, you're all good.

And that's MY point. Why bother with only ONE phylactery, when you can have 5?

Gorgondantess
2009-09-27, 01:37 AM
And no, being a lich is not worth it. Why play a nigh-unkillable 17th level wizard when you can play an unkillable 21st level wizard?:smalltongue:
(Okay, maybe killable by a savvier wizard of greater power, but you get my drift.:smallsmile:)

taltamir
2009-09-27, 01:56 AM
ok... so baelnorn is just "good lich"... lichs have a +4 LA adjustment...
I got one vote for "no"... Yea lichs are neigh unkillable. But humans can be resurrected. a 4 levels higher wizard can do a lot more, and if he dies, well thats why you have a party priest. or better yet, an ally from you have entered into a cross resurrection agreement with...

Actually, I Would make that into a business... "making sure you are resurrected should you die". Cater to nobles.

What about Elans? I recall reading about them, but not which book they are from.

Tokiko Mima
2009-09-27, 02:07 AM
In general, being a lich is great for NPC's, since it's a bunch of useful protections and attack abilities and the CR bump is minor. Since the PC's will be getting close and personal with the Lich (usually) it's abilities actually get used.

For PC characters, a full caster should never under any circumstances give up caster levels, because no LA template in the game is as awesome as what they'll be getting via additional spell access at a lower level. It might be ok to accept some LA at 17-18+ when you have 9th level spells, but whatever you get has to be better than more 9th level spells. Lich is not a good idea before then, and it's +4 LA makes it worse.

Probably the best way to become a lich is to use Sandstorm and the Walker in the Wastes PrC. It's an 8/10 progression class, and dry lich is superior to lich in most respects.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-27, 02:10 AM
And no, being a lich is not worth it. Why play a nigh-unkillable 17th level wizard when you can play an unkillable 21st level wizard?:smalltongue:
(Okay, maybe killable by a savvier wizard of greater power, but you get my drift.:smallsmile:)

Ultimately, this is true. But if you're dead set on it, Dry Lich all the way. And I had this debate on another thread...once you have mythal-tech, you are unkillable by anything other than your own stupidity you don't have a contingency for. Literally.

taltamir
2009-09-27, 02:22 AM
I am not actually interested in becoming one, just curious.
As for walker in the wastes and dry lich... what books are they in?

Myrmex
2009-09-27, 02:34 AM
In general, being a lich is great for NPC's, since it's a bunch of useful protections and attack abilities and the CR bump is minor. Since the PC's will be getting close and personal with the Lich (usually) it's abilities actually get used.

For PC characters, a full caster should never under any circumstances give up caster levels, because no LA template in the game is as awesome as what they'll be getting via additional spell access at a lower level. It might be ok to accept some LA at 17-18+ when you have 9th level spells, but whatever you get has to be better than more 9th level spells. Lich is not a good idea before then, and it's +4 LA makes it worse.

Probably the best way to become a lich is to use Sandstorm and the Walker in the Wastes PrC. It's an 8/10 progression class, and dry lich is superior to lich in most respects.

Re: NPCs
Liches & Vampires have the same CR adjustment, but vampires come with way more sweet abilities.

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-27, 04:03 AM
Re: NPCs
Liches & Vampires have the same CR adjustment, but vampires come with way more sweet abilities.

Well, there is the small problem of vampires not being able to be more than 9 miles away from their coffin or face permanent distruction, or not being immune to polymorph, cold or electricity. Or recoiling from mirrors, holy symbols, garlic. Or being unable to cross water. Or unable to enter homes. Or having to avoid direct sunlight, or water, or pointy sticks.

Yora
2009-09-27, 04:06 AM
I say that NPCs don't advance by gaining XP, that's just a device to track PC progress by the gm. So for an NPC Lich, the cost is only the money, and a rotten body.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-09-27, 05:30 AM
What about Elans? I recall reading about them, but not which book they are from.

Only Elans I know (baring our lovable bard) are from the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

They're in the SRD though. They don't look that bad, but they get a Charisma penalty. Pretty odd considering who shares a name with them.

Bayar
2009-09-27, 06:06 AM
Only Elans I know (baring our lovable bard) are from the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

They're in the SRD though. They don't look that bad, but they get a Charisma penalty. Pretty odd considering who shares a name with them.

Until you get those 2 feats and go psionic...then they become a tank.

Volkov
2009-09-27, 06:53 AM
The lich is worth it, as long as your phylactery is safe, you cannot be killed for good. And eventually, you can become the ludicrously powerful demi-lich. Plus, you look like an awesome skeleton, you have damage reduction, a boost to mental stats, natural armor, immunity to electricity and unwanted polymorphs, and you can touch someone to make sure they never move, ever again.

Volkov
2009-09-27, 06:55 AM
Ultimately, this is true. But if you're dead set on it, Dry Lich all the way. And I had this debate on another thread...once you have mythal-tech, you are unkillable by anything other than your own stupidity you don't have a contingency for. Literally.

Unless something kills you before you managed to develop and cast your first epic spell. I.E A DM ****move.

Volkov
2009-09-27, 06:57 AM
ok... so baelnorn is just "good lich"... lichs have a +4 LA adjustment...
I got one vote for "no"... Yea lichs are neigh unkillable. But humans can be resurrected. a 4 levels higher wizard can do a lot more, and if he dies, well thats why you have a party priest. or better yet, an ally from you have entered into a cross resurrection agreement with...

Actually, I Would make that into a business... "making sure you are resurrected should you die". Cater to nobles.

What about Elans? I recall reading about them, but not which book they are from.

That loss of a level really hurts.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-09-27, 06:58 AM
Until you get those 2 feats and go psionic...then they become a tank.

I'm torn between asking what two feats and why they matter, and sticking to my promise of not using uber-powerful builds from the internet because then my group would be pissed at me.

...I guess I could just keep it in the back of my mind and not use it. :smallamused:

kamikasei
2009-09-27, 07:04 AM
Elans have no maximum age, but they're in no way indestructible - an Elan can be killed just like any human character could be. Of course, unlike a lich, they're resurrectable.

Volkov
2009-09-27, 07:05 AM
Elans have no maximum age, but they're in no way indestructible - an Elan can be killed just like any human character could be. Of course, unlike a lich, they're resurrectable.
There is revive undead. It's raise dead for the undead.

Tokiko Mima
2009-09-27, 07:13 AM
That loss of a level really hurts.

Casters concerned about level loss are advised to use spells like true resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm). :smallwink:

The correct high level spells can make you more immortal than even the most powerful template. It's all about getting as much access to spells as possible, at the lowest level possible.

Volkov
2009-09-27, 07:25 AM
Casters concerned about level loss are advised to use spells like true resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm). :smallwink:

The correct high level spells can make you more immortal than even the most powerful template. It's all about getting as much access to spells as possible, at the lowest level possible.
And you can't access that at level 11.

Johel
2009-09-27, 07:51 AM
No need for epic for a lich to become unkillable, though.

Discern Location can't find an object if nobody but you has ever touched the object. Make sure to Soul bind any person who has ever touched your phylactery.

Permanency + Prismatic Sphere can block most threats. Put the phylactery and the soulgems inside of the sphere.

Symbols of Insanity and Symbols of Death will take care of most intruders.

Permanency + Mage’s Private Sanctum can prevent the place from being scry uppon.

Teleport Object can call the phylactery to you if you have any doubt about its security.

The only weakness is that you can't be warn if somebody enter the area while you are far away. If somebody can think of a way that can send a warning to you when you are on the other side of the continent and that doesn't rely on somebody else to send the warning, then the Lich is indeed invinsible, as it can just call back the phylactery once somebody dispel the Prismatic Sphere.

Tokiko Mima
2009-09-27, 07:55 AM
And you can't access that at level 11.

Where are you getting the level 11 from? :smallconfused:

Volkov
2009-09-27, 07:58 AM
Where are you getting the level 11 from? :smallconfused:

Minimum level to become a lich.

Jack_Simth
2009-09-27, 08:13 AM
The only weakness is that you can't be warn if somebody enter the area while you are far away. If somebody can think of a way that can send a warning to you when you are on the other side of the continent and that doesn't rely on somebody else to send the warning, then the Lich is indeed invinsible, as it can just call back the phylactery once somebody dispel the Prismatic Sphere.
Let me introduce you to a little spell called Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm), that lets you create a totally loyal minion in an Instantaneous manner, that can be as intelligent as you are. There's also Ice Assasin from Frostburn, which is a more powerful version.

Tokiko Mima
2009-09-27, 08:17 AM
Then at that point the choice is whether you'd like to be a 15th level wizard casting 8th level spells, or an 11th level lich casting 6th level spells. ECL 15 WBL of 200k gp could afford a true resurrection, I would hope. Of course, finding the caster is a pain and it's still 25k gp for the diamond, but if the level is important to you, there ya go. It's not impossible at all.

Also important is that as a PC lich saddled with +4 LA, you won't be able to get 9th level spells before the level 20 deadline when Epic rules halt spellcasting advancement. This is bad because you won't be able to qualify for Improved Spell Capacity or Epic Spellcasting... ever.

You could use a fast progression PrC to make up the difference? :smallsmile:

Volkov
2009-09-27, 08:18 AM
Then at that point the choice is whether you'd like to be a 15th level wizard casting 8th level spells, or an 11th level lich casting 6th level spells. ECL 15 WBL of 200k gp could afford a true resurrection, I would hope. Of course, finding the caster is a pain and it's still 25k gp for the diamond, but if the level is important to you, there ya go. It's not impossible at all.

Also important is that as a PC lich saddled with +4 LA, you won't be able to get 9th level spells before the level 20 deadline when Epic rules halt spellcasting advancement. This is bad because you won't be able to qualify for Improved Spell Capacity or Epic Spellcasting... ever.

You could use a fast progression PrC to make up the difference? :smallsmile:
There is one enemy true resurrection cannot defeat. Old age.

Oslecamo
2009-09-27, 08:20 AM
Let me introduce you to a little spell called Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm), that lets you create a totally loyal minion in an Instantaneous manner, that can be as intelligent as you are. There's also Ice Assasin from Frostburn, which is a more powerful version.

Let me introduce you to the fact that simulacrum costs a boatload of resources, huge casting time, and that can be destroyed relatively easily, due to the fact that it can only be repaired by a specialist's hands. That's right, over the time, random acidents and rat bites will reduce the simulacrum to nothing.

There's plenty of other ways to get cheaper and equally loyal minions. Simulacrum only pays off when you're almost epic level and have the exp, level and gold to burn.

hamishspence
2009-09-27, 08:22 AM
Then at that point the choice is whether you'd like to be a 15th level wizard casting 8th level spells, or an 11th level lich casting 6th level spells. ECL 15 WBL of 200k gp could afford a true resurrection, I would hope. Of course, finding the caster is a pain and it's still 25k gp for the diamond, but if the level is important to you, there ya go. It's not impossible at all.

Also important is that as a PC lich saddled with +4 LA, you won't be able to get 9th level spells before the level 20 deadline when Epic rules halt spellcasting advancement. This is bad because you won't be able to qualify for Improved Spell Capacity or Epic Spellcasting... ever.

You could use a fast progression PrC to make up the difference? :smallsmile:

Given that NPCs do not follow this rule (their caster levels and number of spells gained are correct for their level), why would PCs?

All it means its the wizard would have to wait till 21st level in their casting class- level adjustments don't affect spellcasting restrictions.

a Level 25 character (level 21 wizard lich) would have all the casting abilities of a level 21 character- and qualify for Improved Spell Capacity, and/or Epic Spellcasting.

No matter what level you are, in fact, spellcasting follows the "normal rules" until the actual caster level exceeds 21- a 20th level Fighter 20th level mage, would have all the normal casting abilities, of a 20th level mage- even if all those mage levels, were levels taken after becoming Epic.

Jack_Simth
2009-09-27, 08:35 AM
Let me introduce you to the fact that simulacrum costs a boatload of resources, huge casting time, and that can be destroyed relatively easily.

There's plenty of other ways to get cheaper and equally loyal minions. Simulacrum only pays off when you're almost epic level and have the exp, level and gold to burn.
Part of it depends on whether you're doing this as a PC or an NPC, but compared to the Permanent Prismatic Sphere for your Phylactary that Johel noted, which costs 4,500 xp, the 100*HD xp (minimum 1,000) and the 100*HD gp (no minimum) is mostly negligible.

To put this in perspective, the minimal caster for Simulacrum (13th... although there's ways to reduce that; the white dragonspawn (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) Kobold with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon Web Enhancement) Sorcerer can be a twelve hit die character with 14th level Sorcerer spellcasting progression... and if you do it right, ends up as an 8th level caster when he makes a Simulacrum of himself), casting it on himself, spends 1,000 xp (the minimum; if he's got 20 hit dice, he also spends 1,000 xp) and 600 gp in materials (13/2, round down, is 6). Yes, the casting time is long, but Eschew Materials means you can cast it anywhere (snow is not an expensive component).

While the minion is easily killed and difficult to repair, it's not actually all that expensive to create. And mostly, it just serves as a warning that someone's in the same room as your phylactery (you leave it with a scroll of limited Wish, for a standard-action Sending, and order to to keep a readied action up at all times to use the sending to let you know if the prismatic sphere goes down or if any creature enters the prismatic sphere by any means. Oh, and you also arrange for a total lack of cover in the room, and for the critter to have Permanent See Invisibility). Use negative levels from a cross-aligned weapon to reduce your caster level on the Limited Wish so that the Simulacrum doesn't need to make a roll to invoke it.

Yes, it does get somewhat pricy, eventually. So?

Tokiko Mima
2009-09-27, 08:42 AM
Given that NPCs do not follow this rule (their caster levels and number of spells gained are correct for their level), why would PCs?

Because Level Adjustment is supposed to reflect that some monster abilities and qualities are more powerful in PC hands than they are in NPC hands? Thus, PC's pay a bigger balancing penalty when acquiring them, while NPC's ignore the LA penalty completely.

How does it make sense for one ECL 21 character to not be able to gain any more spells, while another ECL 21 character is because it has some LA? LA is not supposed to be a perk that allows you get around Epic restrictions, it's a balancing penalty because your race is stronger than normal.

Johel
2009-09-27, 08:44 AM
Let me introduce you to the fact that simulacrum costs a boatload of resources, huge casting time, and that can be destroyed relatively easily, due to the fact that it can only be repaired by a specialist's hands. That's right, over the time, random acidents and rat bites will reduce the simulacrum to nothing.

There's plenty of other ways to get cheaper and equally loyal minions. Simulacrum only pays off when you're almost epic level and have the exp, level and gold to burn.

You only need it to get enough levels to use a scroll of Sending with good chances of success.
For our 17th level Lich, a 8th level Simulacrum cost only 1.000 XP and about 800 gp, which is trivial when compared to the 7.000 XP that the permanent Prismatic Sphere and Mage's Private Sanctum cost.

Also, "random accidents and rat bits" seldom happens when you are sleeping in a prismatic sphere. Even outside of it, the simulacrum is inside a warded houses, with little chance to get damaged. He must just lurk in a corner and cast Alarm spells every 16 hours or so.

Provide him with a ring of invisibility and he can now use the scroll of Sending without the intruders noticing him. Once you get the word that there are intruders, you either teleport there or you teleport the phylactery to you.

EDIT : ninjad and bested !! :smallwink:

EDIT 2 : Would a 9th wizard, dominated by a Extended Dominate Person spell, be of any use here ? Same as a Simulacrum, except you have to feed him, that he must sleep (but that's covered by the Alarm spell) and can break free if you forget to focus on the domination for 1 round every 24 hours. Also, you must find a new one every 50 years or so, and re-dominate him every month.

Kobold-Bard
2009-09-27, 09:09 AM
Since it hasn't been mentioned I'll bring up the Necropolitan (BoBL).

Basically a 24 hour ritual costs you 1 level and an additional 1000XP, meaning taking at Level 3 will drop you to Level 1, but the self correcting XP system means you pretty much catch up, without the punishing LA.

You become Undead (with the augmented subtype), with all the immunities etc that go with it. Your Hit Dice become d12's (it doesn't specifically say racial HD, but that could be wrong), and you get a bit of help resisting Turn Undead, Control Undead spells etc.

You can be Resurrected, but you'll have to go through the ritual again because of course you'll come back alive again.

I am a firm fan of Elans, but then I'm an immortality whore in D&D.

tyckspoon
2009-09-27, 09:20 AM
How does it make sense for one ECL 21 character to not be able to gain any more spells, while another ECL 21 character is because it has some LA? LA is not supposed to be a perk that allows you get around Epic restrictions, it's a balancing penalty because your race is stronger than normal.

Because one ECL 21 character has actually finished the base class that was granting him spells, while the other one hasn't. The Epic rules don't say that nobody can gain any more spells per day once you hit 20; they say that spells per day progressions do not extend past level 20 in any particular class. You can still gain spells perfectly well by starting a new spellcasting class or finishing out levels in one you alreayd had. The ECL 21 Lich isn't getting anything the level 21 Wizard didn't already have, he's just getting it four levels later (if you want even more penalties than that- the ECL 21 Lich may qualify for Epic feats by virtue of the LA bumping it to Epic, but since his actual skills are still 4 ranks lower he won't qualify for Epic Spellcasting, or any of the other Epic feats that require Epic numbers of ranks in a skill, until ECL 25.)

Talya
2009-09-27, 10:21 AM
the level 20 deadline when Epic rules halt spellcasting advancement. This is bad because you won't be able to qualify for Improved Spell Capacity or Epic Spellcasting... ever.


This is....completely not true!

(1) whether you are epic or not is determined by your character level -- your hit dice-- not your ECL. You don't get to take an epic feat at 15 if your ECL is 21.

(2) You are referring to the rule stated in the SRD as follows:


•For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day don’t increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.

You are misreading this rule. It is in a section called "Class Features," and is referring to class level, not character level. Thus, a level 21 wizard or sorcerer does not increase in their spells per day/spells known, etc for having a 21st level of their class, however, you can start taking your first level of wizard at character level 21 and gain spellcasting as usual (except that you'll be advancing very low level spells very slowly on the epic experience table.) Thus one can be a wizard 20/cleric 20 and have full level 20 spellcasting for both. (Your caster level will be so bad that you won't be able to hit anything with SR, and you won't have epic spellcasting for either of them, but that's not the point.)


I'm not saying the lich template is a good thing before you hit level 21, anyway, because it's not. You're right, most campaigns don't proceed to epic levels and epic levels are so broken only a very few people want to play them, but you are entirely misreading the rules for spellcasters at Epic levels.

Volkov
2009-09-27, 10:23 AM
The lich is really just a stepping stone to the Demi-lich, which is ludicrously unfair. Harm at will, on self. Totally unfair.

Talya
2009-09-27, 10:34 AM
You don't get class features beyond 20th class level

That's only true of certain class features (like spellcasting, which he's talking about), but not all of them. Many class features do continue to advance beyond 20th level.


•Generally, any class feature that uses class level as part of a mathematical formula continues to increase using the character’s class level in the formula. Any prestige class feature that calculates a save DC using the class level should add only half the character’s class levels above 10th.

Flickerdart
2009-09-27, 10:36 AM
I'm not saying the lich template is a good thing before you hit level 21, anyway, because it's not. You're right, most campaigns don't proceed to epic levels and epic levels are so broken only a very few people want to play them, but you are entirely misreading the rules for spellcasters at Epic levels.
Spellcasters have rules at Epic? :smallconfused: Beyond "and then you win the game", at any rate.

hamishspence
2009-09-27, 10:39 AM
"and then you win the game" is assumed to be not in force- DM has discretion over any Epic spell you research.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-27, 10:52 AM
Even without epic spellcasting epic WBL means you can just replace beatsticks with a couple of HD advanced golems at minimal cost.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-27, 12:09 PM
There is one enemy true resurrection cannot defeat. Old age.

Elans beat Old Age like a red headed step child on crack.
For everything else there is master card (I mean True resurrection).

Other lich-like Prc:
Shadow Sun Ninja (Vampire with no sun weakness)
Mindborn template (for psionic characters)

Volkov
2009-09-27, 12:16 PM
Another thing that True ressurection can't beat is, Death by Deity's hand of death, Or death by demi-lich's soul stealing powers.

Kobold-Bard
2009-09-27, 12:43 PM
Another thing that True ressurection can't beat is, Death by Deity's hand of death, Or death by demi-lich's soul stealing powers.

If you annoy a God enough to make it use Hand of Death you deserve what you get. Either that or make friends with another, higher ranked God and make sure they have Gift of Life to counter it.

And who needs to be absorbed by a Demi-Lich, when a Barghest can just eat your soul much earlier on.

taltamir
2009-09-27, 03:05 PM
Because one ECL 21 character has actually finished the base class that was granting him spells, while the other one hasn't. The Epic rules don't say that nobody can gain any more spells per day once you hit 20; they say that spells per day progressions do not extend past level 20 in any particular class. You can still gain spells perfectly well by starting a new spellcasting class or finishing out levels in one you alreayd had. The ECL 21 Lich isn't getting anything the level 21 Wizard didn't already have, he's just getting it four levels later (if you want even more penalties than that- the ECL 21 Lich may qualify for Epic feats by virtue of the LA bumping it to Epic, but since his actual skills are still 4 ranks lower he won't qualify for Epic Spellcasting, or any of the other Epic feats that require Epic numbers of ranks in a skill, until ECL 25.)

the epic spellcasting rules are the most retarded thing even to come out of WOTC... it is an automatic "win the game" at level 21 to any spellcaster. You cannot actually USE any epic magic effectively (read: it is vastly inferior to non epic magic that does the same) without using mitigating factors. And almost every single mitigating factor system is abusable as hell. So you essentially get arbitrarily large epic DC mitigation to insta research, for free, arbitrarily powerful spells, that give you arbitrarily large buffs to anything.
It has been discussed at length in other threads.

As such, when playing, your DM is guaranteed to use something different for epic spellcasting. Which almost guarantees that the whole "and you will never ever get 9th level spells if you have LA" thing gets dropped and you gain spells as normal until your CL gets to 20.

golentan
2009-09-27, 04:29 PM
I'm going to sidestep the discussion on Epic Spellcasting and answer the OP. With something from the epic handbook. Yes, I realize the irony.

I'd go with "Worm that Walks" preferentially. Yes, you need to either pay through the nose for the ceremony or convince your DM that your character becomes one spontaneously, but it is a template that can be applied to any Wizard or Sorcerer, gives you a get out of death free card (in addition you're not undead, so you can be rezzed), HD and hit point boost, a non magical touch attack for massive damage and incapacitation, a nonmagical +20 bonus to AC, a heaping helping of SLAs, spell resistance, blindsight, and frightful presence. Level adjustment: +3.

I wish to reemphasize this. Can be applied to ANY WIZARD OR SORCERER. If you can pull off sufficient cost and experience loss mitigation, you can take leadership and throw these puppies around like they're candy (a 1st level sorcerer without bonus spell slots undergoing the ritual has an 8% chance of producing a worm that walks). Is this whole thing applied to anything non epic gouda of the worst variety? Yes. Is it better than Lich? Yes. Is it legal by RAW? Yes. If you're looking for the most powerful wizard/sorcerer transformation and death cheating template, I humbly submit to you to grab a copy of the epic level handbook.

(edit: yeah I realize this is evil only. But I think it answers the "is Lich worth it" question definitively.)

taltamir
2009-09-27, 04:45 PM
is there any possible transformation that doesn't make you an unholy abomination?

What if your character want to be able to visit his parents, siblings, and their kids without everyone running and screaming?
What if he wants a family? or worse, has a family which he would rather not be terrified of his presence?

DementedFellow
2009-09-27, 04:45 PM
Side question. Could a warlock become a lich? It just seems that a warlock would be more suited to this and the loss of caster level is mitigated snce they have spell-like abilities instead of actual spells.

Johel
2009-09-27, 04:47 PM
(...) Worm that Walks (...)
(edit: yeah I realize this is evil only. But I think it answers the "is Lich worth it" question definitively.)

A few words you've probably missed about the Worm That Walks :


Worm That Walks Characters
The spellcaster performing the ritual must spend 10,000 gp in rare reagents for the ceremony. Furthermore, the ritual drains 2,000 XP from the spell-caster and requires the following spells: limited wish, polymorph any object, summon swarm (heightened to 7th level), and sympathy. Even if the ritual is performed correctly, there is only a chance that the deceased spellcaster will arise as a worm that walks. For each prepared but uncast arcane spell the deceased had at the moment of death (or unused spell slots if a spontaneous caster), there’s a 1% chance that a worm that walks will slither from the grave soil in 1d4 days.
and

GATHERING OF MAGGOTS
Target: Dead creature touched

You cannot do it alone.

This makes it a very unreliable method to become immortal, as you must find another spellcaster that can cast limited wish, polymorph any object, summon swarm (heightened to 7th level), and sympathy on your dead body. While a 20th level Simulacrum can do it (lower than that, he doesn't have the XP for it) and the "normal" method is great for Sorcerer, the Wizards just don't have enough spellslots to make sure they'll come back. :smallfrown:

You can also find a spellcaster that can cast Gathering of Maggots on your dead body. But the problem is here different : an EVIL and EPIC spellcaster will have to sacrifice 2.000 XP so that some chmuk can get immortality and becomes more powerful than himself ? UNLIKELY !! :smallmad:

arguskos
2009-09-27, 04:48 PM
You can also find a spellcaster that can cast Gathering of Maggots on your dead body. But the problem is here different : an EVIL and EPIC spellcaster will have to sacrifice 2.000 XP so that some chmuk can get immortality and becomes more powerful than himself ? UNLIKELY !! :smallmad:
Ah, but what you're missing is that once you are a Worm, you do it to him too. :smallwink: That way, everyone wins!

Johel
2009-09-27, 04:55 PM
Ah, but what you're missing is that once you are a Worm, you do it to him too. :smallwink: That way, everyone wins!

It takes a aweful lot of trust from two BBEGs, though.
Your "associate" can just dispose of you because you were an annoyance to begin with and he has no intention to become a worm.
Or he can ask to be made into a worm first and then kill you "because it's your turn" and then let you rot.

The body's going to be consumed by maggots, so only True Resurrection can bring the dead back if something wrong happens. And this will have to be cast by another person than you, since you're dead.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-27, 04:58 PM
Side question. Could a warlock become a lich? It just seems that a warlock would be more suited to this and the loss of caster level is mitigated snce they have spell-like abilities instead of actual spells.
Sure, all you need is craft wondrous item and CL 11 ... it's going to hurt a warlock just as much as casters though.

Artificers are the ideal Liches ... at higher level they only really need money to be powerful.

arguskos
2009-09-27, 04:58 PM
See, this is why minions exist: to prevent such things.

Also, it'd be a great campaign to have a pair of BBEG Worms dueling it out with one another time and again. Or just have a pair of Worms that don't really trust one another, and the party can potentially turn one against the other. Sounds fun. :smallwink:

taltamir
2009-09-27, 05:02 PM
It takes a aweful lot of trust from two BBEGs, though.
Your "associate" can just dispose of you because you were an annoyance to begin with and he has no intention to become a worm.
Or he can ask to be made into a worm first and then kill you "because it's your turn" and then let you rot.

The body's going to be consumed by maggots, so only True Resurrection can bring the dead back if something wrong happens. And this will have to be cast by another person than you, since you're dead.

there are problems there, but there are ways around it. besides which, evil people need allies too or they are all easy pray for the good parties which hunt them while cooperating and supporting each other.

Johel
2009-09-27, 05:05 PM
See, this is why minions exist: to prevent such things.

Also, it'd be a great campaign to have a pair of BBEG Worms dueling it out with one another time and again. Or just have a pair of Worms that don't really trust one another, and the party can potentially turn one against the other. Sounds fun. :smallwink:

"-I die first !!"
"-No, I die first !! You were the one who died last time !!"
"-But you were the one who was too greedy to use the epic spell !!"
"-Here you go again... Whinning for a little diamond..."
"-A 25.000 gold coins diamond !!"
"-Details... Say, it failed 'cause you're a wizard. Not enough magic. So if I go first, it will work for sure !!"
"-And then you can let me rot !?"
*Blast, Blast*
"-...****, he wins. Sort of... Well, so, the formula..."

arguskos
2009-09-27, 05:06 PM
Exactly! I think this is amusing and awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-27, 05:26 PM
is there any possible transformation that doesn't make you an unholy abomination?

What if your character want to be able to visit his parents, siblings, and their kids without everyone running and screaming?
What if he wants a family? or worse, has a family which he would rather not be terrified of his presence?

I think there is an acquired template index somewhere that can answer your question.
Edit: This might narrow it down (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf)
Lycanthrope
Wendigo
Arcane blood
Corrupted
Poisonous
Stone Boned (sounds good)
Half golem
Captured one
Dustform
Faerzress-Infused
Mineral Warrior'
Fire souled
Lolth touched
Are some I found there

As for get out of dead free cards, the awful prestige class Death Delver give 9 lives. Problem is you need 10 terrible 0 spell progression levels to get it. But you aren't undead either. As a DM, I've homebrewed a Death Delver that does give full spell progression.

golentan
2009-09-27, 06:02 PM
No, I realize that most of the time you need a second party. (but notice it says that some generate spontaneously, and I mentioned the possibility in the post)

That's why you need to pay through the nose, or be low level when you get the template. With experience and or gold mitigation techniques (trap cheese for the latter, I seem to recall a magic item that restores lost XP for the former, or BOVD has some methods), it makes sense for a level 14 or 15 wizard to make some low level servants/apprentices into worms that walk. After all, he can still save or suck them if they get out of hand, he can include contingencies against them, he'll be able to stay ahead of them in power, and they become massively more effective servants. Now he just needs to be off the scene in a way that leaves you alive (maybe a rival, maybe an Inevitable), and BOOM! Several levels/decades later you have a PC with a way better template than lich, an interesting backstory, and plot hooks. And if the boss man is making one, he should really make a bunch; who ever makes a single version of their superweapon and declares it a day? No you have an army of these things. So now there's a ready supply of NPCs to interact with, and potential replacement players. Let us now move on to the LE Utopia by having our immortal brotherhood develop ways to create Ikea tarrasques and destroy the economy of the multiverse through torturing polymorphing traps. (sorry, inside joke)

And evil doesn't necessarily mean non-cooperative. Read some of the gaming articles over on the sidebar. The Emotional Responses article and Villain workshop especially.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 06:24 PM
Most templates are simply not worth it except for very, very specific builds.

As an example, I currently can't think of a single template I would want applied to any of my wizards that I legally could add(not playing a dragonwrought kobold, unfortunately). A great many of them have a laundry list of negative side effects, large level adjusts are common, and a *lot* of them are undead or evil.

Salt_Crow
2009-09-27, 06:32 PM
As it had been mentioned before, Dry Lich template (SS) is a superior alternative to lich (in my opinion). The only drawback is that a rainy day can seriously ruin a dry lich's day for sure.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-27, 06:56 PM
You cannot do it alone.


You are right, you can't touch yourself.

ericgrau
2009-09-27, 07:26 PM
Most templates are simply not worth it except for very, very specific builds.
I think that's the whole idea when they set the LA, though I'd cross out one "very" :smalltongue:. You are expected to take advantage of the template's strengths.

The paralzying touch, obscure DR 15, immunities and skills are pretty nice. Slap on a couple protective spells on top of that and you'll be hard to affect. But is it worth losing 4 levels of offensive capabilities? Probably not unless, as said, you really have a good idea in mind. But, y'know, it's good if old age is hampering your world domination schemes. And monsters only "pay" 2 CR.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 07:30 PM
Old age *never* truly hampers a wizards world domination schemes, given the ability modifiers.

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-27, 07:36 PM
Old age *never* truly hampers a wizards world domination schemes, given the ability modifiers.

Except, you know, the whole dying can never to resurected or cloned part.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 07:38 PM
If you die of old age before getting to epic levels, you were never really a contender for world domination anyhow.

Myrmex
2009-09-27, 09:12 PM
Well, there is the small problem of vampires not being able to be more than 9 miles away from their coffin or face permanent distruction,

Shrink Item.


or not being immune to polymorph,

Why would a high level caster ever want polymorph immunity?


cold or electricity.

Meh. Use spells for protection, either with straight up immunity, incorporeality, whatever.


Or recoiling from mirrors, holy symbols, garlic.

It's a spell caster. Not being able to get within 5 feet isn't that big a deal when you can end them with a Finger of Death or whatever.


Or being unable to cross water.

Abrupt Jaunt, Teleport, Dimension Door.


Or unable to enter homes.

Minions, bluff, diplomacy, charm, dominate, suggestion. How often do your high level liches enter homes? I know mine hang out in impenetrable fortresses and it's usually the PCs going to fight them.


Or having to avoid direct sunlight, or water, or pointy sticks.

Darkness gets you out of sunlight, as does control weather. D&D vampires have no specific weakness vs. getting wet. And most everything has vulnerability to pointy sticks.

Paulus
2009-09-27, 09:15 PM
Darkness gets you out of sunlight, as does control weather. D&D vampires have no specific weakness vs. getting wet. And most everything has vulnerability to pointy sticks.

Treant's scoff at your pointy sticks!

ericgrau
2009-09-27, 09:35 PM
If you die of old age before getting to epic levels, you were never really a contender for world domination anyhow.

It's an epic feat just to extend your life. You need to take it again to extend it further. And blowing too many epic feats can be a bummer.



Why would a high level caster ever want polymorph immunity?

You're still allowed to cast polymorph on yourself. And because baleful polymorph is a fort save.

As for the immunities and energy resistances, you can only mimic a couple with spells. It's nice to get some for free and then fill in the holes with spells.

I can't say if the LA is worth it, but the abilities are nice.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 09:41 PM
Well, you can become a construct, etc...there are a lot of tricks by the time you get to epic levels, including divine ranks for those so inclined. It's a lot easier to become effectively immortal...or at least, not very mortal when you hit epic levels. If you go lich, vampire, etc before becoming epic, you make it much harder to achieve that bar.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-27, 10:11 PM
Any wizard worried about dying can become pretty much impossible (or at least, severely improbable) to kill by 7th level. And reincarnation can thwart old age (and is nabbable in a number of different ways by any tier 1 character).

Jergmo
2009-09-27, 10:31 PM
For old age, there's a necromancy spell floating around, 9th level, Immortality. But, you still need to rely on True Ressurection.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 12:59 AM
Darkness gets you out of sunlight, as does control weather. D&D vampires have no specific weakness vs. getting wet. And most everything has vulnerability to pointy sticks.

If anything that is a strength... humans are just vulnerable to a steak through the heart, lightening too... That vampires aren't immune to those specifically says something...

Question then... If you are now level 21, why WOULDN'T you become a lich?
Also can a dry lich become a demilich?

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-28, 02:24 AM
D&D vampires have no specific weakness vs. getting wet.

"Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion."
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Because everything dies if immersed in water after 18 seconds.


It's a spell caster. Not being able to get within 5 feet isn't that big a deal when you can end them with a Finger of Death or whatever.

while being held at bay you cannot attack or target those who hold the items.

I noticed that all of my concerns about vampire weaknesses you plan to compensate using spells, that would have to be cast and paid for, rather than getting it all free with a lich template. Hmm. By that logic going straight wizard is still the best choice (since a straight wizard has more spells than a wizard Vampire)

On a lighter note, liches don't have to worry about vampire slayers, unlike demons and vampires. :smallbiggrin:

Dixieboy
2009-09-28, 02:46 AM
You know what needs to be made?

A fighter-lich.
Something for high level evil fighters to transform themselves into using their fightin prowess.

Cyclocone
2009-09-28, 02:55 AM
It's an epic feat just to extend your life. You need to take it again to extend it further. And blowing too many epic feats can be a bummer.

The Fortify seed can do it as well y'know.

On lichdom.
Spells can cover everything a lich gets. Veil of Undeath and Energy Immunity can give you all the lich immunitites; and Genesis + Astral Projection (from Planar Binding a Nightmare) makes an excellent replacement for a phylactery, as does a Clone and a Thought Bottle. Even the +2 Int you can cover with Epic Spellcasting (Fortify seed again).

As has been said, lich is only marginally worth it for NPC's, who only have to pay +2 CR; and even then, they might be better of with two more levels in wizard for more feats and CL.

It's not that lich is so bad, it's just that spell versatility has gotten so inflated.

Johel
2009-09-28, 03:19 AM
You are right, you can't touch yourself.

That was an horrible pun :smallwink:


"Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion."
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Because everything dies if immersed in water after 18 seconds.

Undead and non-breathing creatures don't.
Vampires are the exception here, though they are still awesome.

Asheram
2009-09-28, 03:39 AM
That was an horrible pun :smallwink:
Undead and non-breathing creatures don't.
Vampires are the exception here, though they are still awesome.

Then, there's always pulling up Ravenloft, with Denizens of Dread.
Vampire strains are Really fun to play with

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-28, 04:44 AM
You know what needs to be made?

A fighter-lich.
Something for high level evil fighters to transform themselves into using their fightin prowess.

I don't know if is worthy but.. the Death Knight from MMII.

Siegel
2009-09-28, 10:23 AM
When an Undead (let's say maybe Vampire or other sentient Undead) performs the Lich ritual, does he become living again ? :smallconfused:

Myrmex
2009-09-28, 12:01 PM
"Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion."
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Because everything dies if immersed in water after 18 seconds.

No, but anything you can immobilize for 18 seconds in D&D is usually dead meat, regardless of whether you get it wet or not. My bad on that one, though.


while being held at bay you cannot attack or target those who hold the items.

From the SRD:

"Repelling a Vampire

Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action."


I noticed that all of my concerns about vampire weaknesses you plan to compensate using spells, that would have to be cast and paid for, rather than getting it all free with a lich template. Hmm. By that logic going straight wizard is still the best choice (since a straight wizard has more spells than a wizard Vampire)

Well yes, of course straight wizard is better. 2 more levels of wizard means another spell level. Besides, immunity to two elements that any good wizard isn't going to be using isn't much of a benefit.

Furthermore, all the problems you brought up may be a problem for your standard, stupid, girl-rub vampires, but if you're running your vampire as a lich (reclusive, lots of spellcasting, genius, patient), then virtually none of those problems are problems. How often does Bob the Lich go kick in someone's door without asking, or hang out next to running water?

And if they do become problems, you have a host of 4th level or lower spells to simply solve them (or skills, or minions, or simply going out at night), and if your players ask you how he crossed that stream, etc, you can say "he used a teleport effect".

Spell slots usually aren't an issue for encountered creatures, anyway. I don't think I've ever ran a spellcaster past 5th level that ran out of spells when fighting a party. Either the party defeats it or DM protection teleports it away to be used another day.

Occasionally in really drawn out battles, you may run out of spells with an NPC, but typically that's when the PCs are attacking the NPC at home base, where the NPCs can win by attrition. In that case, though, the vampire has no need to put up its typical defenses.

Jergmo
2009-09-28, 01:01 PM
...Am I the only one that suddenly thinks a Lich Eldritch Knight would be cool?

Jergmo
2009-09-28, 01:03 PM
Well yes, of course straight wizard is better. 2 more levels of wizard means another spell level. Besides, immunity to two elements that any good wizard isn't going to be using isn't much of a benefit.

So, "good wizards" only use the elemental types that everyone thinks of getting resistance to? Huh... :smallconfused:

cZak
2009-09-28, 01:06 PM
From the OP...
It has been generally assumed that all association with dead things is considered an evil act; however, other systems do make allowances for this: Eberron (Deathless) and Forgotten Realms (Baelnorn: Monsters of Faerun). So i see no reason that a PC could not maintain their goodness, or at least freedom from evilness, while being undead.

If you want a 'mini-lich' try the Necropolitan (Libris Mortis) followed with the Spell stitched undead (Comp Arcane).
By 12th level (lich req) you get:
DR 5/ silver & magic
SR
Turn as HD+2
Multiple SLA's; limited to conjuration, evocation and necromancy. However, not limited to any particular class (druid, clerical, bardic, etc...)

Compared to lich, there are +/-'s, but no LA (though I question that) as debilitating as the lich template.



Fools are made to suffer, not to be suffered

Optimystik
2009-09-28, 01:54 PM
You are right, you can't touch yourself.

Bit tricky when you're dead, yes.

I don't think anyone's mentioned Dread Necro 20 yet. Lichdom for free with no LA, dough or exp cost.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-28, 02:37 PM
A vampire with 11 class levels can have an epic spellcaster as spawn.

tyckspoon
2009-09-28, 04:08 PM
So, "good wizards" only use the elemental types that everyone thinks of getting resistance to? Huh... :smallconfused:

No, good blasting wizards either use elements where native resistances and immunities are rare (acid, sonic) nigh-impossible to resist (Force and the occasional typeless damage) or just damage you through your immunity regardless (Searing Spell and Piercing Cold metamagics for Fire and Cold spells, respectively.) For spellcasting/treasure-using enemies, either opening with a good Dispel or the metamagic route is preferred. Most low-treasure or unintelligent things you can just go with sonic/acid.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 04:42 PM
And if they do become problems, you have a host of 4th level or lower spells to simply solve them (or skills, or minions, or simply going out at night), and if your players ask you how he crossed that stream, etc, you can say "he used a teleport effect".

I think in DnD he can cross the water, he just takes damage if falls into it while crossing.

sentaku
2009-09-28, 05:03 PM
From the srd


Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-28, 05:13 PM
Can't cross it and takes damage if the Vampire tries for the Lolz.
Unless Vampire has Aquatic subtype it says.


If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire retains the ability to swim and is not vulnerable to immersion in running water (see below).

taltamir
2009-09-28, 05:59 PM
Can't cross it and takes damage if the Vampire tries for the Lolz.
Unless Vampire has Aquatic subtype it says.

an aquatic vampire?

does that mean there is a fire vampire which is immune to the sun?

Starbuck_II
2009-09-28, 06:18 PM
And a wood Vampire immune to staking. Although, does staking ever come up?

taltamir
2009-09-28, 06:33 PM
And a wood Vampire immune to staking. Although, does staking ever come up?

after "killing" the vampire it turns to mist form and flys back to coffin where it regenerates, one of the only ways to kill it is to stake it within its coffin.


Fast Healing (Ex)
A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.


Slaying a Vampire
Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 01:16 AM
So, "good wizards" only use the elemental types that everyone thinks of getting resistance to? Huh... :smallconfused:

No; the only spell a good wizard has with a de facto energy descriptor is going to be Shivering Touch. And if the wizard MUST be doing damage, he wants to use piercing cold on his cold substituted orbs of fire, because he gets to ignore immunities & resistances.

Alternatively; ninjas:


No, good blasting wizards either use elements where native resistances and immunities are rare (acid, sonic) nigh-impossible to resist (Force and the occasional typeless damage) or just damage you through your immunity regardless (Searing Spell and Piercing Cold metamagics for Fire and Cold spells, respectively.) For spellcasting/treasure-using enemies, either opening with a good Dispel or the metamagic route is preferred. Most low-treasure or unintelligent things you can just go with sonic/acid.

graymachine
2009-09-29, 11:21 AM
A note on the Necropolitan: The creature also heals from rest as though they are living creatures. My DM has also interrupted this to mean that they are healed by both Inflict and Cure spells, a neat trick. Also, the thing to keep in mind for them is that there is no LA. You lose a level, but this can be gained back easily; essentially you pick up the Undead traits, including a d12 HD (nice if your an arcanist with a poor CON), and some side benefits.

While considering the Lich template, or any template for that matter, it's important to find out if the DM is allowing LA buyback. If so, this knocks Lich down to a LA 1 template, making it far more palatable. A lower template gets completely paid off.

If your DM lets you take Worm That Walks sub-epic then s/he deserves whatever broken bits you can shovel into your character.

The Walker in Waste is an excellent PrC out of Sandstorm, but unfortunately not really relevant for an arcanist. The class primarily services divine casters, although the full caster level advancement in it doesn't specify divine. Still, it provides several side benefits that are nice, and gives you Dry Lich for free (I think.) Dry Lich itself is worth the 1 LA over Lich simply for the Unholy Toughness trait, which gives you hp per HD from your CHA bonus. Many other benefits as well.

Lastly, I'd point out that if you are in Ravenloft things are easier on the undead, with extra benefits and protections. The Dark Powers approve of Undeath, apparently.

Choco
2009-09-29, 11:23 AM
And that's MY point. Why bother with only ONE phylactery, when you can have 5?

On that note, the rules for a regular lich specifically say he can create new phylacteries, but I am wondering how that works in the case of a dry lich. Those 5 jars contain your actual organs, so you probably can't just "craft" yourself new ones. Would a Miracle/Wish be required to get a dry lich's jars back if they were destroyed?

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-29, 11:30 AM
an aquatic vampire?
does that mean there is a fire vampire which is immune to the sun?

You know, for the Sun there is Iron Hearth Surge :smallbiggrin:

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-09-29, 11:37 AM
Its amazing how off-topic this has gotten... Every template discusion of "is it worth the LA?" devolves into caster level hording. :(


Baelnorns have rules in the Monsters of Faerun booklet. They're 3.0 and hard to track down, but they are there. It's really nothing to write home about though, they just make you a "good lich" with a few abilities replaced with more "good friendly" ones.

A few more? This is the exception to the 'evil does it better' rule. This template is still doable with ninth level fast casting or +1sorc casting abuse. I know that isn't saying much but still. You really should like out how nuts the abilities that 4 LA can give you. Full turning and rebuking? Turning and rebuking immunity AND a counteracting destroy effect? A free cross-planar projection? Yes please.

tyckspoon
2009-09-29, 11:47 AM
While considering the Lich template, or any template for that matter, it's important to find out if the DM is allowing LA buyback. If so, this knocks Lich down to a LA 1 template, making it far more palatable. A lower template gets completely paid off.


Not under the buyback rules as written; if you become a Lich as soon as you can normally qualify, at level 11 (setting aside that it costs more than the WBL allotment of a character three levels higher and almost half a level's worth of XP), you can buy off one point of the LA when you hit 12. You can't buy off any more until you hit Epic (at which point the XP cost for the buyback really kinda hurts, and you may as well just suck it up.) Buyback works well for LA +1 and 2; the rules still suck for 3+.

graymachine
2009-09-29, 12:03 PM
Not under the buyback rules as written; if you become a Lich as soon as you can normally qualify, at level 11 (setting aside that it costs more than the WBL allotment of a character three levels higher and almost half a level's worth of XP), you can buy off one point of the LA when you hit 12. You can't buy off any more until you hit Epic (at which point the XP cost for the buyback really kinda hurts, and you may as well just suck it up.) Buyback works well for LA +1 and 2; the rules still suck for 3+.

Right, sorry. I forgot the buyback occurring at specific levels.