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View Full Version : Wand of Lesser Vigour vs. Healing Belt



Tyger
2009-09-27, 04:50 PM
OK math folks... which one makes more sense for the 750 GP? No cleric in the party, only a Crusader (who has some limited healings), a druid (who hates memorizing healing spells) and me, the bard, who isn't taking Cure Light Wounds.

If the game lasts long enough, it seems that the Belt would outmatch the Wand... but I am torn. What are your thoughts?

sonofzeal
2009-09-27, 04:55 PM
Wand of Lesser Vigor - heals a static 550 hp, for 750 gp

Healing Belt - heals 13.5 per day, for 750 gp

Eternal Wand of Lesser Vigor - heals 22 per day, for 820 gp




....the Eternal wand catches up after 25 days, but can't heal faster in an emergency. I'd go with the regular wand.

taltamir
2009-09-27, 04:55 PM
OK math folks... which one makes more sense for the 750 GP? No cleric in the party, only a Crusader (who has some limited healings), a druid (who hates memorizing healing spells) and me, the bard, who isn't taking Cure Light Wounds.

If the game lasts long enough, it seems that the Belt would outmatch the Wand... but I am torn. What are your thoughts?

For the three bolded parts: why? why? and why?
As for the items. sonofzeal has done the math... the problem with those "per day" items, is that when you NEED them, you need lots of them... also, as you consume them, you gain levels and wealth. And they become obsolete.

sure the belt costs less per use eventually, but it also heals too little to matter eventually... it will probably heal enough to be cheaper per heal, eventually... but it still has a limit per day, which means when you really really need it, it isn't enough.

jokey665
2009-09-27, 04:56 PM
Wand is better if you need a lot of healing every day. Belt gets better the longer you own it. I recommend both, use the belt first and the wand if you need it.

sonofzeal
2009-09-27, 04:56 PM
Wand is better if you need a lot of healing every day. Belt gets better the longer you own it. I recommend both, use the belt first and the wand if you need it.
Good point! Just substitute Eternal Wand for Healing Belt, imo.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 04:59 PM
It takes a long, long time for the belt to be more cost efficient than the wand...and the wand has the advantage of being more flexible, because sometimes, you have a bad day, and need a *lot* of healing. As an additional bonus, the wand doesn't use a body slot.

Now, do you have a UMD user or other means of using the wand(Im not up on those class lists, but it seems to me that one of ya'll should have either vigor or clw.)? That's the only real downside there is that you need someone capable of using it, while the belt can be slapped on anyone.

Now, if there's some money to spare, both is a good option.

Tiktakkat
2009-09-27, 05:00 PM
You need a house rule (or some splat book element I am unaware of) for an eternal wand of lesser vigor to exist.
Eternal wands only hold arcane spells, and lesser vigor is only on the cleric and druid spell lists.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-27, 05:01 PM
Hell, I'd get a wand of CLW too ... for when LV just takes too long.

Bang
2009-09-27, 05:02 PM
For the three bolded parts: why? why? and why?
Who wants to play an Aristocrat so the party can have a healing battery?

taltamir
2009-09-27, 05:04 PM
Who wants to play an Aristocrat so the party can have a healing battery?

its not even that, all the classes listed have some healing capability, they just refuse to use it. The druid refuses to prepare healing spells, the bard refuses to take healing spells...

sonofzeal
2009-09-27, 05:04 PM
Hell, I'd get a wand of CLW too ... for when LV just takes too long.
If LV takes too long, chances are CLW does too. You need a Heal spell before you're gaining fast enough to really count.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 05:06 PM
Woah, that is a bit odd. With a party of three healers, healing belts should be all you really need.

What's the harm in taking one or two healing spells?

PinkysBrain
2009-09-27, 05:18 PM
If LV takes too long, chances are CLW does too. You need a Heal spell before you're gaining fast enough to really count.
Oh, I dunno ... 5.5x speedup is quite a bit, at low level short downtimes are not entirely uncommon (while people trade arrows from cover for instance and one side is either summoning up courage to rush or trying to decide who gets point).

Kelpstrand
2009-09-27, 05:20 PM
Healing spells aren't very good. You should be glad the Druid has Entangle instead.

Buy a Wand of Lesser Vigor. It takes about 48 days before the Healing Belt is cheaper. Based on 4 per day + 14 per level, that's 13 levels. If you never ever need more than one charge per day, you won't notice the different for 13 levels.

If you ever do need more than one charge per day (you will) then you'll regret not having the wand.

sonofzeal
2009-09-27, 05:28 PM
Oh, I dunno ... 5.5x speedup is quite a bit, at low level short downtimes are not entirely uncommon (while people trade arrows from cover for instance and one side is either summoning up courage to rush or trying to decide who gets point).
5.5x speedup depends on only having one person being healed; usually in this sort of situation, in my experience, there'll be 3-4 people who need healing, and the Lesser Vigor can apply to each simultaniously so the speedup's only 1.833x if there's three being healed, 1.375x if there's four, and actually slower if there's six or more.

Also, 1d8+1 per round is generally not worth your round in combat after level 2. CLW just doesn't cut it for in-combat healing, and out of combat the speedup is rarely significant. I'll go with efficiency here, myself.

Godskook
2009-09-27, 05:37 PM
There's more than math to consider here. Wands require ranks in UMD and a free hand, while the healing belt just requires cash. All the frontliners should be wearing healing belts, regardless of the cost issues because practically, the belts work better in emergencies. If eternal wands aren't in play, the wand-user should consider buying his own healing belt too, if they are, he should be fine with an eternal wand.

Kylarra
2009-09-27, 05:42 PM
There's more than math to consider here. Wands require ranks in UMD and a free hand, while the healing belt just requires cash. All the frontliners should be wearing healing belts, regardless of the cost issues because practically, the belts work better in emergencies. If eternal wands aren't in play, the wand-user should consider buying his own healing belt too, if they are, he should be fine with an eternal wand.
Well technically the druid can just be using the wand anyway.

Tyger
2009-09-27, 05:44 PM
OK, no cleric because no one wants to play one.

Druid is a archery focused character, staying at the back and using some slight battlefield control spells. Because that is the way he wants to play.

Bard is level 2, and there are much better spells for me to know of my 2 first levels (Inspiring Song and Silent Image). Maybe later I'll take it, but that doesn't answer our admittedly meager healing here. Because that is the way I want to play... my character is a spy, not a cleric. But I have UMD, and can use the wand. Or just pass it to the Druid if its an emergency.

Now, hopefully that answers the questions asked.

Resources are tight (only have 1800 gold to buy everything I need) so its either the wand or the belt. And based on the suggestions here, looks like the wand wins out by a margin big enough to matter. By the time it runs out, I'll be able to afford more and better, and may well have some healing spells of my own.

Thanks!

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 05:44 PM
Im not sure the efficiency difference between the wands is really enough to matter. Both are pretty cheap sources of healing, so I generally take CLW for the speed. Of course, that's probably less important if you have belts as well.

What level is the party, and how much gold is available for healing stuffs?

Tyger
2009-09-27, 05:46 PM
Im not sure the efficiency difference between the wands is really enough to matter. Both are pretty cheap sources of healing, so I generally take CLW for the speed. Of course, that's probably less important if you have belts as well.

What level is the party, and how much gold is available for healing stuffs?

Level 2, with a generous DM, so we have 1800 GP each to start off with. I strongly doubt that anyone else will invest in healing sources, but I will be encouraging such.

lsfreak
2009-09-27, 05:50 PM
Im not sure the efficiency difference between the wands is really enough to matter.

Just to point out, Lesser Vigor is exactly double the average healing of CLW for the same price.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 05:51 PM
In that case, take the belt of healing. Not because it's optimal, but because it will hopefully show the value of having some healing around, and encourage them to make provisions for the same.

I just think it's a wee bit silly to have a bunch of healing classes with absolutely no healing spells, and to have the majority of the party not thinking about other ways of healing. If you take the wand, they'll be begging for heals, guaranteed. =)

Kylarra
2009-09-27, 05:54 PM
If it's just your money, I agree, go ahead and take the belt. Pool spare cash for a wand of lesser vigor if/when the party starts needing bandaids after fights.

Eldariel
2009-09-27, 06:28 PM
Wand of Lesser Vigor - heals a static 550 hp, for 750 gp

Healing Belt - heals 13.5 per day, for 750 gp

Eternal Wand of Lesser Vigor - heals 22 per day, for 820 gp




....the Eternal wand catches up after 25 days, but can't heal faster in an emergency. I'd go with the regular wand.

Eternal Wands can only be made of arcane spells. Also, Healing Belt heals average 9 per use with 3 uses or 27 per day (the 4d8 option is only used in emergencies and even that averages 18). It's the correct choice, but the real correct choice is:
BOTH

Once you have a Wand of Lesser Vigor or two, and Healing Belt per face, you'll never need to worry about Healing again. That's how every single adventuring party should be equipped. Wand should be bought split-budget with the entire party since the entire party will be using it, and it'll be cheap that way, while everyone should invest in their personal belts, just already so they can heal themselves in combat.

msully4321
2009-09-27, 07:03 PM
Healing Belt - heals 13.5 per day, for 750 gp

13.5? Healing belt heals an average of 27 HP (6d8) per day if you use 3 charges individually and 18 HP (4d8) per day if you blow all 3 charges at once.

Edit: Gah, I got ninja'd.

sonofzeal
2009-09-27, 07:07 PM
13.5? Healing belt heals an average of 27 HP (6d8) per day if you use 3 charges individually and 18 HP (4d8) per day if you blow all 3 charges at once.

Edit: Gah, I got ninja'd.
Yeah, did something massively wrong there, sorry about that. @____@

Healing Belt for yourself sounds good, then talk the party into getting a Wand of Lesser Vigour. The speed of CLW isn't substantial because, honestly, time is better measured in actions, and Lesser Vigour gives more healing for the same number of actions. You can then continue to fight, or run away, or play dead, while the CLW guys have to burn twice as many standard actions to get the same healing. Also, an advantage of Lesser Vigour is that you auto-stabilize during those 11 rounds, which is trivial at high levels but very useful now.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 07:33 PM
Well, you shouldn't be wanding heals in combat anyhow unless someone is in serious danger. At that point, speed of heals is critical. Once out of combat, speed of healing is mostly irrelevant.

taltamir
2009-09-27, 07:36 PM
Level 2, with a generous DM, so we have 1800 GP each to start off with. I strongly doubt that anyone else will invest in healing sources, but I will be encouraging such.

if you are the only one healing the party, then they should chip in to help pay for it.

woodenbandman
2009-09-27, 07:48 PM
Everyone has healing belts, and you have either 1 wand of lesser vigor and keep replacing it OR you have a bunch of eternal wands. For low levels, I'd go for the wand, because it is a pay-as-you-go scheme, and sometimes, you really gotta go.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-27, 08:10 PM
Everyone has healing belts, and you have either 1 wand of lesser vigor and keep replacing it OR you have a bunch of eternal wands. For low levels, I'd go for the wand, because it is a pay-as-you-go scheme, and sometimes, you really gotta go.

Again Eternal wands only arcane. So CLW would work, but Lesser Vigor is not a Bard spell.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-27, 08:34 PM
its not even that, all the classes listed have some healing capability, they just refuse to use it. The druid refuses to prepare healing spells, the bard refuses to take healing spells...

Because using wands and other items to heal people is better than using spell slots. OW4 has a wonderful guide covering this. Here's the post regarding this:


Healin'. Patchin' up the wounds. Sewing the Fighter's larynx back in after he took an arrow through the neck and lived and wanted to tell about it. Every player knows the drill. But oddly, a lot of players just use really... silly methods of going about healing themselves, and have some wild misconceptions about how to do it effectively and even how much of a priority it should be. The Problems Some players think they *have* to have a cleric or druid to cover the healing role, and place healing as an extremely high priority, even in combat, and even if they don't, many even spend inordinate amounts of money on extremely inefficient healing items that may hurt them more than help them. To summarize a few common issues:

* Players overprioritize healing in combat when there are more effective options available to them.
* Players spend too much money on healing, often spending wads of cash on things like potions of Cure Moderate Wounds.
* Players believe they can't heal efficiently without a Cleric or Druid or similar class in the party, and view such as an essential role, to the point where some even *force* others to play a Cleric or Druid just so that they can have a dedicated healer, and then downplay the extraordinary talents of those classes and belittle them to a mere healing role, making for an unenjoyable experience for the victim of this treatment.
* Many players just don't know how to get the best healing for their buck.

Some Information and Comparisons First, an effort at dispelling some of the myths. First off, you should probably never be buying healing potions, perhaps with the exception of Cure Light Wounds or a similar level 1 spell. The reason for this is simple. The cost is exorbitant, and it's really not worth it. A Cure Serious Wounds potion will heal, on average, 18.5 hp, and it will cost you 750gp, and it will take either a standard or a full round action to use, and it will provoke AoOs unless you did some further investment to prevent that, and on top of that it probably smells bad and tastes bitter. Yuck. For the same price, you could have gotten a Wand of Cure Light Wounds (275hp total instead of 18.5hp), a Wand of Lesser Vigor (550hp total instead of 18.5gp), or a Healing Belt (Either 6d8 hp (average 27 hp) a day, or 18 hp (same as the potion!) per day if you burst heal, usable as a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)) Would you rather get 18 hp, or 18 hp per day? Now would you rather use a standard or full action that provokes AoOs, *and* need to draw the item, or would you rather use a standard action that doesn't provoke AoOs? And hey, wouldn't you like the option to heal even more for efficiency, outside of battle? There's even another option, this one for artificers, that costs a mere 50 gp a pop: Infuse an ally with Greater Healing armor. This will give them 6d8+30 total healing (3d8+15 as a swift action, usable twice). As an added bonus, it will even automatically heal you if you get knocked unconscious. The point is... potions are bad. Potions are inefficient. So are scrolls of Cure Moderate Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, and so forth.

Second, a dedicated healer is not a necessary combat role. Seriously.

First off, healing often does not outpace damage. Moreover, removing an enemy a threat can often be much more effective at saving your allies' necks than going up and poking them with Cure X Wounds. If an enemy were to deal 50 damage to an ally, and you can take that enemy out by either disabling or killing them, then you've "healed" that ally of the 50 damage he would have taken. Additionally, as healing often does not keep up the pace with damage, even if you can't disable the enemy, healing the ally might not be good enough to save them. Instead, you might want to use an ability to help the ally escape, or block the enemy from attacking them (this can be something as simple as Benign Transposition, really). In fact, healing in combat is only situationally a good choice, and is often a subpar tactical option. Secondly, you can get very efficient out-of-combat healing quite easily without a Cleric or Druid, and indeed a Rogue, Artificer, Paladin, Ranger, Factotum, Warlock, or Bard could fill the healing role with a wand of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigor. In fact, you can even get good, cheap burst healing comparable to the Cleric or Druid's ability at low levels with items like the Healing Belt.

Actually, the Artificer can prove to be a fantastic healer, cheaply (we're talking 37.5% market price here) turning out healing belts, wands of lesser vigor, and providing Greater Healing armor infusions (a mere second level infusion) at an early level. The Paladin and Ranger can use wands of Cure Light Wounds without penalty, and the others can use UMD to master the efficient wands. On top of that, members of *any* class can easily chip in with the very efficient Healing Belt.

These things considered, you really can get by without a Cleric or Druid. In fact, if you do have a Cleric or Druid, they're probably going to be more useful in most combats if they are doing something OTHER than healing, since they have considerable talents in many regards. How to Heal Effectively (Author's note: I have excluded a few very potent and efficient means of healing because things like the infinite-healing-for-cheap trap and other such things are just plain abusive, and few sane DMs will allow them)

* Blessed Bandages (10gp, MiC page 152): 10gp to automatically succeed to stabilize an ally. Can definitely save a friend at very low levels.
* Wands of Cure Light Wounds (750gp, Core): The hallmark of efficiency. These wands will dish out an average of 5.5hp a pop, and with 50 charges that will add up to 275 total healing. This wand gains an advantage over Lesser Vigor in two respects: Speed of use, and the fact that Lesser Vigor is a Cleric and Druid only spell, and thus is only available to those classes and UMD users, while Paladins and Rangers and the like will stick to Cure Light Wounds.
* Wands of Lesser Vigor (750gp, Spell Compendium Page 229): These are the most efficient healing wands around! You get 11 hp per pop (though it takes a full minute to gain that 11 hp), and you get a total of 550hp of healing for your 750gp.
* Healing Belts (750gp, MiC page 110): For 750gp, *anyone* can heal 6d8 hp a day, and even burst heal for 4d8hp as a Standard action with a Touch range, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity like spells and scrolls. Also, with the MiC rules for adding common effects, you don't even need to worry about "keeping the slot free" anymore. You can actually just say, give one of these to everyone in a party of 5 for 30d8 healing per day, and just subsidize your healing costs. This is a great way to keep everyone alive at low levels. As if this weren't good enough, you get feel-good +2 bonus to Heal checks as a bonus.
* Artificers can heal very effectively with Greater Healing Armor (MiC page 12), dishing out 3d8+15 healing *twice* usable as a swift action, and even automatically healing a character should they fall unconscious. Best of all, this only costs you 50gp for a total of 6d8+30hp healing, and is available at a very low level.
* Wand of Faith Healing (Spell Compendium): It's kinda cheesy, but it's worth mentioning if your DM allows it. It's exactly the same as Cure Light Wounds, except maximized and only usable on people who share your faith (which can easily just be everyone in your party). I personally don't allow this spell as a DM.
* Touch of Healing (Reserve Feat, Complete Champion pg 62): This one is for the actual "healers." As long as you have a healing spell of second level or higher ready to cast, you can heal anyone up to half their total hp (but no higher, meaning you have to use more abilities to fully heal them) for free. Basically, for the cost of a feat, you get a lot of free healing.
* Summon Nature's Ally IV (Core): Summoning a Unicorn nets you a free set of 3 CLWs, 1 CMW, and a Neutralize Poison. It has a caster level of 5th, so that'll total 5d8+20 points of healing (and a neutralize poison). It's even something a druid can cast spontaneously. Not bad.
* Revivify (Cleric 5, Spell Compendium page 176): Revive your dead buddy for 1000gp as a standard action instead of for 5000gp as a much longer action, and best of all *no level loss.* A no brainer really. You just need to be quick about it, acting within 1 round of the victim's death!
* Revenance (Cleric 4, Paladin 4, Bard 6): This spell can target any character that died within 1 round / caster level of casting. The subject comes back to life (as if by Raise Dead except with no penalties) and is able to fight (with a +1 morale bonus on attack, damage, and saves against the person who killer her) for 1 minute per level, at the end of which the character dies again. The real seller here is that it has a wider window to cast than Revivify (1 round / level), and moreover the ally will die at the end of the spell (or after being killed again), often allowing you to use Revivify when it would otherwise be impossible (window passed) or too dangerous (in the middle of combat).
* Delay Death (Cleric 4, Spell Compendium page 63): As an *Immediate Action*, the ally becomes unable to die from hit point damage (they'll still fall unconscious, they just won't die.) This means that you can instantaneously cast this spell when a buddy takes their final hit, and they won't die for 1 round/level (during which time you can finish the encounter, then heal them up.) Can definitely be a lifesaver.
* Tomb Tainted Soul (Feat, Libris Mortis): This handy feat allows you to be healed by negative energy. This means that a living Dread Necromancer can heal you to full as much as she likes with Charnel Touch, and that you can heal yourself with things like Uttercold metamagiced spells and the like.
* Amulet of Retributive Healing (2000gp, MiC Page 69): This handy little doodad lets you double up on your healing 3 times per day. When activated (as a swift action) this amulet allows you to cure yourself of an amount of damage equal to however much you cured your buddy of. So, if you cast Heal on your ally, you can activate this item to use a free quickened Heal on yourself. Works with scrolls and everything, too.
* Collar of Healing (5000gp, MiC page 90): As an *Immediate action* once per day, heal your animal companion of 50hp and cures the Fatigued or Exhausted conditions. Keep your little buddy going. As an added bonus, it works at any range (as long as you're on the same plane), and lets you know your companion's exact hit point total at all times.
* Heal (Core): Heal is a great spell. It really is. It's the healing spell you actually might want to use in fights fairly often. It heals a ton of damage, and it takes away ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned. A laundry list of status effects, some of which are quite deadly in their own right! However, Heal is not a necessary party role in and of itself! Again, you don't actually need *any* in-combat healing to have a highly effective party. Still, when you *do* have a Cleric or Druid around, there's no reason they shouldn't have this ready. If you don't have a Cleric or Druid around, you may want to consider a scroll or two of this for those few situations where you really do want a Heal (i.e., your buddy just got blasted for 100 damage and got stunned to boot).
* Divine Ward (Feat, PHB II): This feat will help out the "true healers," allowing them to use Close Range instead of Touch Range for their healing spells on one ally by spending your Turning attempts. You can get a similar results with Divine Metamagic (Reach Spell) (Which happens to be doubly useful for, say, a ranged Slay Living).
* Augment Healing (Feat, Complete Divine): Add +2 healing per level of the healing spell cast. Simple and effective for a dedicated healer, should you choose to get one.
* False Life (Sor/Wiz 2, Core): Instead of taking up an action to heal during combat, take an action to heal up to 1 hour / level before combat ever happens! See also, Aid (Cleric 2, PHB)
* Empathic Transfer (Egoist 2, Psychic Warrior 2, XPH): This useful power is the standy of healing as a Psionic character. The method is a little unique as opposed to standard methods of healing, but it works just as well. You eliminate anywhere from 2d10 to 10d10 (depending on augment) hp of damage from an ally, and transfer half of that damage onto yourself. Combined with Vigor (Psion 1, Psychic Warrior 1, XPH), and Share Pain (Psion 2, XPH) both shared to your psicrystal through Share Powers, the temporary hit points will absorb all of the damage.
* Vigor (Psion 1, Psychic Warrior 1, XPH): This power giives you 5 temporary hit points per power point spent, lasting for a minute per level. It's like healing *before* you ever take damage, and lets you buff beforehand in order to avoid the need to heal in combat.
* Amulet of Tears (2300gp, MiC page 70): Another source of temporary hit points, this handy item stores 3 charges per day and grants temporary hit points lasting for 10 minutes based on the number of charges spent. For 1 charge, you gain 12 tmporary hit points, and for 3 charges grants 24 temporary hit points.
* Share Pain (Psion 2, XPH): This power transfers half of the damage dealt to you to a willing subject, and thus helps a good deal with damage mitigation. It lasts for an hour per level, so can last for a full day's worth of encounters, and a popular use is to combine it with a Vigor (Psion 1, Psychic Warrior 1, XPH) power shared with your psicrystal and make your psicrystal the subject, effectively doubling the effect of vigor and transferring a good deal of hp damage onto a target that is often a noncombatant.
* Shield Other (Cleric 2, Paladin 2, Core): This is much like Share Pain, except it deals half of an ally's damage to you, helping you to protect them. It also adds a +1 resistance bonus to saves and a +1 deflection bonus to AC for the target, as an added plus.
* Vampiric Touch (Sor/Wiz 3, Duskblade 3, Core): 1d6 damage per two levels, and gain temporary hp equal to the damage dealt. This spell is notable for combining offensive abilities and effective in-combat "healing" into the same attack. This spell is useful in spell storing weapons, or channeled through a Duskblade's "Arcane Channelling" ability. It is generally *not* a good idea for the average mage to run up into melee and try to touch an enemy with it, because the damage will be low and the temporary hp probably won't save you from a world of pain (unless you have other protective spells and such up). Also note that if you're an Unseen Seer or Arcane Trickster, you can increase the amount healed with sneak attacks!
* Bloodstone weapon enhancement (+1, page 29 MiC): Stores and casts Vampiric Touch just like a spell storing weapon, except that it's automatically empowered. Basically, this will deal extra damage on attacks equal to (1d6 per two caster levels)*1.5, *and* give the wielder of the weapon temporary hp equal to the damage dealt. Thus, you're adding to damage and to healing at the same time! See also: Vampiric Touch.
* Bodyfeeder weapon enhancement (+3 bonus, XPH): This handy enhancement will grant its wielder temporary hit points equal to the damage dealt by any critical hit he dishes out. With an expanded critical hit range, you can expect this to give a steady stream of temporary hp. This enhancement can be granted by an artificer spending a 3rd level infusion and a small amount of gp. (Note: Though "Wrathful Healing" is almost certainly more effective, it's much less likely to be allowed)

Tyndmyr
2009-09-27, 08:41 PM
While this is a useful guide, it appears that his party members in addition to not preparing healing spells are also not planning to purchase healing items.

That just smacks of a lack of preparedness.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-27, 08:44 PM
While this is a useful guide, it appears that his party members in addition to not preparing healing spells are also not planning to purchase healing items.

That just smacks of a lack of preparedness.

Then the Crusader may feel the need to take Blessing of the Godless (Exemplars of Evil). It's a fairly decent way of covering the party's healing needs, if time consuming.

Kylarra
2009-09-27, 08:50 PM
Might you spoiler the guide quote?

sonofzeal
2009-09-27, 09:29 PM
Then the Crusader may feel the need to take Blessing of the Godless (Exemplars of Evil). It's a fairly decent way of covering the party's healing needs, if time consuming.
Or just takes Martial Spirit, and pulls his punches for 1d4 nonlethal, average 2.5, while each hit heals 2 nonlethal AND 2 lethal.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-27, 09:36 PM
Or just takes Martial Spirit, and pulls his punches for 1d4 nonlethal, average 2.5, while each hit heals 2 nonlethal AND 2 lethal.

Against what? Elementals are immune to Nonlethal damage IIRC, and whatever he hits must pose a threat to him or the party, as written in the stance. He can't just start punching his allies and healing them at the same time.

Quick question though: Does Martial Spirit require the attacks to be in melee, from the Crusader himself, or can a Ranged character within 10ft of the Crusader trigger it? If the latter works, a Totemist with Manticore Belt can cover healing one character at a time in combat, quite well too.

Disclaimer: I've no problems with unlimited healing.

sonofzeal
2009-09-27, 09:39 PM
Against what? Elementals are immune to Nonlethal damage IIRC, and whatever he hits must pose a threat to him or the party, as written in the stance. He can't just start punching his allies and healing them at the same time.
Where? I mean, "each time you make a successful melee attack" seems pretty easy to trigger. I don't see anything about posing threats there.

icefractal
2009-09-27, 09:44 PM
Technically, the Crusader can just heal everyone to full by beating the crap out of a boulder, as Martial Spirit (unlike other healing strikes) does not specify anything about the target. However, the DM might object to this, and I can't say I'd blame them. So as to more legit healing methods:

For healing the party, go for Lesser Vigor wands. They basically never run out, because in anything close to a standard campaign, you gain wealth much faster than you use the wand up. Buy one or two wands - those should last you a few levels, by which point you can trivially afford 3-4 more wands; by the time those run out, you'll have enough to buy a big bag of wands and hardly notice the cost.

However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't get a Healing Belt. Healing Belts are great for giving a quick boost to a downed ally, or on yourself if you take a big hit. Don't be afraid to use the 3-charge burst either - the wands will take care of non-combat healing, and you can get several belts and swap between battles if necessary.

As for the party members not using spell-slots for healing, that's just common sense. In-combat healing is generally a losing move unless you're really good at it (Heal, Mass Heal, RSoP-boosted healing). A Druid is always going to be a better battlefield controller than healer, spell-wise (and if healing is direly needed, you can drop any 4th level spell to summon a Unicorn). Sometimes it makes sense to prepare a few Lesser Vigor spells at low level, but once you can afford the wands, go with those.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-27, 09:45 PM
Where? I mean, "each time you make a successful melee attack" seems pretty easy to trigger. I don't see anything about posing threats there.

So it seems they didn't attach that clause to the stance.


I really hate WotC's editing...

Godskook
2009-09-27, 11:39 PM
The next line says:

"Each time you hit an opponent in melee, you can choose a different recipient within range to receive this healing."

That makes hitting non-opponents a fairly awkward reading to gain the benefits of this, unless you keep a low-level opponent lying around somewhere for this purpose*.

*I can see it now, the Crusader of Pelor and his fellowship of friends prepare to assault the Lich's tomb. But first, the stop an prepare. The cleric and wizard cast their buffs, and everyone meditates. Then, the rogue pulls out the mob boss the group had topple many years prior from his bag of holding. The crusader proceeds to beat the pulp out of the poor thug, healing the group of all their wounds. The unconscious man is summarily dumped back into the bag, where the ring of sustenance keeps him alive**.

**They rigged the bag with air-holes somehow, ok?

Zaydos
2009-09-28, 12:03 AM
*I can see it now, the Crusader of Pelor and his fellowship of friends prepare to assault the Lich's tomb. But first, the stop an prepare. The cleric and wizard cast their buffs, and everyone meditates. Then, the rogue pulls out the mob boss the group had topple many years prior from his bag of holding. The crusader proceeds to beat the pulp out of the poor thug, healing the group of all their wounds. The unconscious man is summarily dumped back into the bag, where the ring of sustenance keeps him alive**.

**They rigged the bag with air-holes somehow, ok?

No they just give him an iridescent spindle ioun stone (no need to breath). If you have a problem there's an ioun stone to fix it somewhere.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 01:19 AM
Because using wands and other items to heal people is better than using spell slots. OW4 has a wonderful guide covering this. Here's the post regarding this:


Very nice guide. it should be noted that most of these are still spells. Mostly cleric spells.
Also some require feat slots, and I'd rather use a spell slot instead.
There are some very nice low level cheap items offered there, and he does the math right.

Thing is, I didn't suggest combat healing because of failure to understand the math, obviously there are better things, usually, to do than combat heal.

But when someone or two crits on the wizard in a surprise round and he goes down and looks "really bad" (aka, very low negative HP), and it is your turn in combat and lo and there is little you can do against THIS enemy (but the wizard could, very effectively down them)... then a combat heal would save your party.

Now is it always the BEST option? definitely not... and it should not be prioritized either... but it comes up on occasion as being the best tactical maneuver. "not always the best option" and "always always always a bad idea" are two different things, and I don't think the guide preaches the latter considering how many methods of effective combat healing it presents.

I am not suggesting playing healbots... but actively avoiding any healing capability is unwise, to the point where the rest of the party even flat out refusing to buy healing items is gross negligence.

Thrawn183
2009-09-28, 08:25 AM
Part of why I like the Healing Belt is it can be used offensively against undead pretty well. It is especially useful if you can't overcome their DR, or they have fast healing or both (why is it my characters only seem to encounter vampires at low level?)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-28, 08:30 AM
*I can see it now, the Crusader of Pelor and his fellowship of friends prepare to assault the Lich's tomb. But first, the stop an prepare. The cleric and wizard cast their buffs, and everyone meditates. Then, the rogue pulls out the mob boss the group had topple many years prior from his bag of holding. The crusader proceeds to beat the pulp out of the poor thug, healing the group of all their wounds. The unconscious man is summarily dumped back into the bag, where the ring of sustenance keeps him alive**.

Hilarious. I'd ask you if I could sig it, but that's not how I roll. Absolutely brilliant.