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Shadowbane
2009-09-27, 06:07 PM
Yes, you heard me right. I want to play a monk. It's not like the group I play in (not DM, play in) is a bunch of optimizers. It's just that I'm going to be subpar, no matter how we play this.

In the end though, it's the flavor that matters. I want a character who is all about discipline, is the unarmed fighter like the monk, able to perform these amazing physical feats and run really really fast.

My DM says that he'll give me the Saint template without LA, and that will help. I want to do a full monk. (sorry, I know that is an optimizer's nightmare.) How should I build him effectively? I'm tempted to give him Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at first level.

Anyway. Human, starting scores 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13. Help!

Talya
2009-09-27, 06:12 PM
Yes, you heard me right. I want to play a monk. It's not like the group I play in (not DM, play in) is a bunch of optimizers. It's just that I'm going to be subpar, no matter how we play this.

In the end though, it's the flavor that matters. I want a character who is all about discipline, is the unarmed fighter like the monk, able to perform these amazing physical feats and run really really fast.

My DM says that he'll give me the Saint template without LA, and that will help. I want to do a full monk. (sorry, I know that is an optimizer's nightmare.) How should I build him effectively? I'm tempted to give him Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at first level.

Anyway. Human, starting scores 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13. Help!

If they're not optimizers, VoP is probably fine. Most players never even think about flying, from what I've seen. In my level 17 party, we've got a cleric, a hospitalier, a ranger, and a rogue, and my sorceress is the only one who ever takes flight. (And that with Alter Self instead of any fly spells.) VOP is a lot of fun with a monk, even if it is "suboptimal." It's actually more than optimal if you are primarily focusing on hitting and doing damage and not worrying about all the fancy gear abilities anyway, it will get you the highest hit bonuses/damage totals and fancy built in abilities (along with most--but not all--of the abilities from equipment that most optimizers consider "essential.")

Flickerdart
2009-09-27, 06:12 PM
VoP is a trap! Grappling, also a trap.

Find a Monk's Belt. Get the Superior Unarmed Strike feat. Now your fists are doing good damage. Minimize MAD: Carmendine Monk/Kung Fu Genius keys your abilities off INT, which also gives you precious skill points. Invest in a way to Flurry and move: Travel Devotion, or a bunch of teleporting items. If you want, dip some Psychic Warrior levels for Expansion and Hustle, you will be that much more effective. Take Tashalatora, that way you don't lose those levels from your Monk unarmed and AC progressions.

Starscream
2009-09-27, 06:14 PM
VoP isn't bad for monks (they and druids are pretty much the only classes that can get away with it), but it still isn't as good as magic items usually. If you are playing a somewhat "magic light" campaign it can be good. And it can help reduce the horrible MADness that is one of a Monk's prime weaknesses.

Don't grapple! Monks just don't have the BAB required for a good grappling build.

Talya
2009-09-27, 06:15 PM
VoP isn't bad for monks (they and druids are pretty much the only classes that can get away with it), but it still isn't as good as magic items usually. If you are playing a somewhat "magic light" campaign it can be good. And it can help reduce the horrible MADness that is one of a Monk's prime weaknesses.

Don't grapple! Monks just don't have the BAB required for a good grappling build.

Goliath monks can grapple alright, actually. Other than that, no.

Flickerdart
2009-09-27, 06:16 PM
Half-Minotaur, if your DM lets you take it, would help that grapple out.

jiriku
2009-09-27, 06:22 PM
The wall walker ACF from dungeonscape lets you exchange slow fall for the ability to run up walls. The decisive strike ACF from PHB2 lets you exchange flurry of blows for decisive strike, which, combined with the aforementioned monk's belt and superior unarmed strike, will give you impressive damage, and improves the save DC of your stunning fist.

Shadowbane
2009-09-27, 06:22 PM
Thank you for the advice! My DM would like to note that he is willing to give me the following things to make my class less suboptimal:

BAB at level 20 is +20/+20/+20/+15/+10, and will increase in a different way so it ends up like that .

In addition, monks get DR 10/- instead of DR 10/Magic, and quivering palm is 1/day, instead of 1/week.

Things are looking better.

AgentPaper
2009-09-27, 06:26 PM
Natural flight as part of VoP would be helpful, probably at around 10-12 or so.

Keld Denar
2009-09-27, 06:38 PM
If you want, dip some Psychic Warrior levels for Expansion and Hustle, you will be that much more effective. Take Tashalatora, that way you don't lose those levels from your Monk unarmed and AC progressions.

This. Do this. Tashalatora is AWESOME! You wanna know what the true meaning of mental focus is? Psionics. Your mind is SOOOO awesome, it deflects hits (Inertial Armor), it rearranges your body (Expansion), it bends space (Psionic Dim Door), it gives you quickness your body couldn't produce (Hustle or Psionic Lion's Charge). It gives you the supreme focus to break stuff with your hands (Grip of Iron).

Monk2/PsyWarX with Tashalatora will outmonk a monk any day, at any level. Its MORE of a monk in every way, except for the fact that it only have 2 levels of monk written on the sheet. But guess what? Your character can't read that sheet. He just thinks hes a monk, like other monks are, except his focus is SOOOOOO much more complete than theirs while his physical prowass is the same.

Seriously, give it a try. Its a blast! I played a higher level 1/2 Giant Monk2/PsyWar11 lady named Clothilda, and she was a grapplin hugglin lovin machine!

PinkysBrain
2009-09-27, 06:44 PM
I'm tempted to give him Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at first level.
It will make you weaker.

Anyway Saint, so you need some exalted feats ... Sanctify Ki Strike, Holy Ki Strike, Fist of the Heavens and maybe Touch of Golden Ice? (Vow of Non Violence would make that last one more powerful, but you will be worse to have in the party than a paladin.)

ericgrau
2009-09-27, 06:47 PM
Grapple-focus with a non-monk is a trap. You not only disable the monster, you also disable yourself, since you can't do much damage. Remember folks; there is no grappler and graplee, just 2 creatures involved in a grapple. Unless you take a -4 penalty, which puts you below monk BAB at most levels, and use a light weapon. Also remember that even initiating a grapple deals unarmed damage and only takes one attack (not a standard action), so often there's no reason for a monk to not do it.

Just make sure you use the monk's level 1 and level 6 feats when the opportunity arises. When it doesn't, then don't. Read the monk weapon descriptions because they're related to these. Use the kama to trip and the sai/nunchaku to disarm. Yes, sais disarm well, historically they disarmed well, WotC has a posted NPC that uses a sai to disarm as a main strategy, and an employee made a monk who was a disarming master. If you still think it's a net +0 bonus, then group it with using drowning to heal you up to 0 HP by RAW and ask the DM to give it a bonus "anyway".

If you want to perform cool physical feats, use your monk speed combined with the appropriate skills. Read up on them to see what you can do, including the general skill rules such as there are no natural 1's. Use your mobility to pick out strategic targets. Consider magic items that add even more mobility, such as bonuses to skills or more options like flying. While you're at it consider magic items and potions for other things you may want to do, besides healing potions. Mix AC from multiple sources for best value.

Stats: IMO str 18, dex 17, wis 16, con 15, int 14 and cha 13. Maybe bump con up.

Depending on how far you want to optimize I hear you can stack a bunch of size boosts and etc. to get a lot of unarmed damage, which again translates to grapple damage too. Someone else can help you more with this than me.

Woodsman
2009-09-27, 06:49 PM
My friend has a monk fix that can be found here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=64436).

Never tried it, but I've heard it works well. If you don't want it, though, VoP isn't a bad choice at all.

TheWerdna
2009-09-27, 06:49 PM
first off, convince your DM to let monks have a Full BAB

Get a Amultet of Natural weapon (aka the item that mkaes your fists magic weapon)

with those you should do fine


for stats

Str; 16

dex: 18

Con: 15

Int: 14

Wis: 17

Cha: 13


Get weapon finese, and raise your dex with magic items as you go (will help you get more AC while leting you hit more)

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-27, 06:50 PM
What about the Unarmed Swordsage? It's more interesting than Monk, in my opinion. If you must have monk levels, I second the Tashalatora thing.

While suboptimal, you should be fine with VoP if you're not in a particularly high powered campaign.

Flickerdart
2009-09-27, 06:53 PM
If we're letting homebrew in, Fax (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk) has an awesome Monk homebrew.

Also, do NOT waste feats on Weapon Finesse. You want Strength, because you want to punch people in the face. Weapon Finesse is fine and all, but when you hit you'll do piddling damage.

Glimbur
2009-09-27, 06:54 PM
Grapple-focus with a non-monk is a trap. You not only disable the monster, you also disable yourself, since you can't do much damage. Remember folks; there is no grappler and graplee, just 2 creatures involved in a grapple. Unless you take a -4 penalty, which puts you below monk BAB at most levels, and use a light weapon. Also remember that even initiating a grapple deals unarmed damage and only takes one attack (not a standard action), so often there's no reason for a monk to not do it.

I have two different counter-arguments to this.

One: Totemists. They have natural attacks, which work just fine in grapples.

Two: Rogues. Not a rogue that grapples, but you're in a party of ~4 people. The grappling Barbarian or whatever sets up the Rogue for lots of sneak attack opportunities. And the cleric can power attack, and the wizard can actually use those fun touch spells.

More on topic, Unarmed Swordsage can do everything you want out of the monk.

Starscream
2009-09-27, 06:55 PM
If we're letting homebrew in, Fax (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk) has an awesome Monk homebrew.

Agreed. This may be my single favorite homebrew of all time.

ericgrau
2009-09-27, 06:59 PM
I have two different counter-arguments to this.

One: Totemists. They have natural attacks, which work just fine in grapples.

Two: Rogues. Not a rogue that grapples, but you're in a party of ~4 people. The grappling Barbarian or whatever sets up the Rogue for lots of sneak attack opportunities. And the cleric can power attack, and the wizard can actually use those fun touch spells.

More on topic, Unarmed Swordsage can do everything you want out of the monk.

Natural attacks count as light weapons, and eat the -4. The grappler is also more vulnerable to his enemies, so strategically it can go both ways. I'm not saying martial guys should never grapple - there are good opportunities - but focusing on it too much is usually a bad idea. On the flipside of good opportunities there are times when no one should try to grapple. There are also other ways to get strategic advantage without giving up 1 player's damage.

Unarmed swordsage has already been suggested, and it is of course an option. But it's best to assume it could go either way until the OP gives an answer.

Keld Denar
2009-09-27, 07:14 PM
The great thing about most grapple based monk or totemist builds is that they still do do other stuff, and quite well. My Clothilda is just as happy punchinating the stuffing out of stuff, but she'd really shine if she could get her manicured hands on a nice dragon and wrestle it to the ground while fully Expanded. Being HUGE and counting as GARGANUTAN while having attacks that are considered COLLOSAL is pretty fun. But she does just as well while completely surrounded making a full attack with Flurry + Snapkick and not worrying about trying to grapple. In fact, with Scorpion's Grasp, grappling is more of an afterthought.

I guest which I had the free feats for Fling Enemy. It may not be super strong mechanically, but when you've got her grapple mod, flinging folks through the air is a riot!

My Totemist gets 8 natural attacks in a round and can do a good job shredding most folks, but when he needs to, he can grab on fine enough to harrass most foes that aren't dedicated grapplers themselves.

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-27, 07:33 PM
Agreed. This may be my single favorite homebrew of all time.

I disagree. Fax's homebrew is weaker than the PHB monk, special abilities wise, which is what the OP chose the class for.

On this board, I'm always amazed how quickly posters say "No don't! play X instead" when ever someone says "I want to play a monk," instead of, you know, helping the person to optimize a monk like they ask for.
Monks are fun to play.
Who needs flight when you have dimensional door? At least that is what my epic cleric used all the time. You teleport on top of the flying creature, pin its wings back. You and he plummet, and he takes all the damage when you both hit the ground.

As for MAD (multiple Ability dependency, an acrynom I had no clue about until recently) There is intuitive attack (uses WIS instead of STR to attack)(exalted feat, get as a bonus for VOP) and another feat (name escapes me) that ADDS Dex modifier to your damage. With a +8/+6/+4/+2 to abilities from VOPing, it helps a lot. The scores you have are great for MONK, all mid to high.

woodenbandman
2009-09-27, 07:34 PM
Grappling as a monk is not impossible. You will probably find yourself making some weird choices, though.

For starters, what sources are allowed? Magic of Incarnum and/or Tome of Battle help greatly, because they both give you a means of getting Constrict.

As for your race: I would personally go for Anthropomorphic Bear, but that's my answer to everything (and your capstone ability does look tempting now that your DM has given you all this junk). So go human for now.

Feats: First level, take Stunning Fist. Stunned Enemies can't fight back, and you can't qualify for it until later if you don't take it early. You could go for Improved Grapple but it's not necessary.

Your level 1 feats with flaws are Improved Grapple, Scorpion's Grasp Multigrab, and any other feat. Level 3 take Martial Study(or Shape Soulmeld: Kraken Mantle), Level 9 take Martial Stance (Crushing Weight of the Mountain), or Open Lesser Chakra (arms). 6th level, increase your strength and take Improved Multigrab. Then at level 12 take Rending Constriction.

So what should happen is you become able to hit people, start a grapple as a free action, maintain it with 1 hand at no penalty, and then break their neck with a rake attack. You could combine this with Decisive strike for double damage on all your constrict attacks when they inevitably try to break out.

A good race for monks is Duergar. Their Expansion ability is very good, and with a single feat they can use it 3 times per day. or just go Tashalatora, if your DM allows it.

Shadowbane
2009-09-27, 07:37 PM
tome of battle is allowed, Magic of Incarnum is not. All the completes are allowed, BoED, Miniature's Handbook.

gdiddy
2009-09-27, 07:37 PM
Play a Lawful Good Saint Deepspawn Illithid monk with VoP.

It makes grappling worth it.

Your mission? Show the world that monks mean business.

Tiny minor downside is the +8 LA. But a Mind Flaying Monk is an effective monk.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-27, 07:39 PM
A big problem with grappling is the fact that you can't grapple creatures two or more size categories larger than you. If you intend to grapple monsters, get a means to increase your size. Tashalatora does it best, but a friendly caster with enlarge person is also nice, as is an item that lets you cast enlarge person on yourself.

Jace Glaekon
2009-09-27, 07:45 PM
Sacred Fist is neat. I've got a Skarn (MoI) Monk 10/Cleric 1/Sacred Fist 9 with Cleric-zilla based buffs. Only took 2 size mod (Righteous Might and Sledge Strike(Book of Feats)) due to preferences of + modifiers instead of more dice.

Keld Denar
2009-09-27, 08:04 PM
On this board, I'm always amazed how quickly posters say "No don't! play X instead" when ever someone says "I want to play a monk," instead of, you know, helping the person to optimize a monk like they ask for.

Because most people who come here saying "I wanna play a monk" really mean "I wanna play an unarmed, unarmored guy who beats stuff up". The best solution for that generally involves very little in the way of actual monk levels. Not everyone realizies this off the bat, so the education starts. Things like various monk fixes, unarmed swordsage, and tashalatora are brought up. If one of them catches the OPs eye, GREAT, if not, the OP should take initiative to focus the thread.

Advice on the internet is free. Ignoring advice that doesn't apply to you is also free.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-27, 08:08 PM
Who needs flight when you have dimensional door? At least that is what my epic cleric used all the time. You teleport on top of the flying creature, pin its wings back. You and he plummet, and he takes all the damage when you both hit the ground.

Only if you ignore the rules. DD stops all actions afterward. Teleport works though, but Dimension Door doesn't allow actions.

deuxhero
2009-09-27, 08:15 PM
See if you can trade flurry for skirmish or such, because flurry+improved speed is one of the key show offs of how synergyless the Monk is (faster move speed and an ability that you can't use after moving).

Shadowbane
2009-09-27, 08:29 PM
So, I'll be playing this character from Level 6 into level 30. Long campaign, the best kind!

His name is Zane, and he didn't come from a monastery. I'm playing this similar to Exalted, actually, since he IS Exalted. He was always a disciplined young man, and was so devout he took a sacred vow of poverty. He worked with a paladin named Belisarius Graeme and a diviner named Aladar Moonshadow for some time, hunting down a group of elves known as the Maern'Rretynn that had slaughtered the Elven House of Os'Taesia.

They were, however, eventually ambushed and during the ambush, Zane's real monk powers and appeared and the rest is predictable.

So, starting at level six...

Zane, 6th level human saint monk. Lawful good.

Stats:
Str: 16
Dex: 18
con: 17
Int: 14
Wis: 20
Cha: 17

Feats:
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Sacred Vow
Scared Vow of Poverty
Sanctify Ki Strike
Holy Ki Strike (Bonus feat)
Sanctify Natural Attack (Bonus feat)
Touch of Golden Ice (Bonus feat)

...Seems ok so far!

PinkysBrain
2009-09-27, 08:34 PM
Well, I hope the roleplay will be stellar ... because combat will be boring for you :) Without items you really lose the last chance to mix it up a bit in combat ... also you are at the mercy of party members to deal with situations like flight, solid fog, difficult terrain etc.

Shadowbane
2009-09-27, 08:45 PM
Our roleplay is always excellent. Plus the guy playing the wizard is a definite pro, and we're talking about how to work together to help make my character effective.

DM has made one more ruling in my favor: I get fly at my land speed (heh) at 10th level thanks to Vow of Poverty.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-27, 08:49 PM
Might I recommend a reflavored Totemist instead of Monk? VoP works better with the Totemist, and you can get nearly identical flavor if you know what you are doing. The Totemist is mechanically superior to the Monk 9 times out of 10 (the 10th being Monks who follow Dman's advice), and likely more enjoyable.

At the very least, Shape Soulmeld: Airstep Sandals and some sources of Essentia to make up for your lack of Flight. Or Dragonborn. Because, you know, Wings.

ericgrau
2009-09-27, 08:50 PM
So, I'll be playing this character from Level 6 into level 30. Long campaign, the best kind!

His name is Zane, and he didn't come from a monastery. I'm playing this similar to Exalted, actually, since he IS Exalted. He was always a disciplined young man, and was so devout he took a sacred vow of poverty. He worked with a paladin named Belisarius Graeme and a diviner named Aladar Moonshadow for some time, hunting down a group of elves known as the Maern'Rretynn that had slaughtered the Elven House of Os'Taesia.

They were, however, eventually ambushed and during the ambush, Zane's real monk powers and appeared and the rest is predictable.

So, starting at level six...

Zane, 6th level human saint monk. Lawful good.

Stats:
Str: 16
Dex: 18
con: 17
Int: 14
Wis: 20
Cha: 17

Feats:
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Sacred Vow
Scared Vow of Poverty
Sanctify Ki Strike
Holy Ki Strike (Bonus feat)
Sanctify Natural Attack (Bonus feat)
Touch of Golden Ice (Bonus feat)

...Seems ok so far!

Okay, I can see why you got a high wis cuz of stunning fist, but why such a low strength with improved trip? You really need it for your strength check and your attack rolls. Do you have some way to get wis to AB that I don't know about? I mean, if your stunning fist attack misses, you lose it and your wis won't matter. I'd put strength first and wis maybe 2nd, and then only if you think you'll be able to stun a lot of things. I mean dex is still good for initiative, skills and AC. If you're gonna be a stunning master and expect vulnerable monsters, then maybe I'd put wis first and str would still be 2nd so they actually hit. Unless you have some other benefit from wis that my limited knowledge of BoED didn't realize.

EDIT: Even your cha is higher. Wth? Another exalted thing?

Shadowbane
2009-09-27, 08:58 PM
I'm going to be taking Intuitive Attack as my next feat. That means my Wis bonus to attack instead of Str.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-27, 09:00 PM
I'm going to be taking Intuitive Attack as my next feat. That means my Wis bonus to attack instead of Str.

That doesn't help when using the Trip action (for one, Touch AC is low, and two: You need Str for the opposed roll, something Intuitive Attack doesn't cover).

Shadowbane
2009-09-27, 09:01 PM
True. Should I switch my dex and str stat? The character hasn't been finalized yet.

EDIT: Plus I get the exalted stat bonuses thanks to VoP. At 20th level I'll have +8/+6/+4/+2. I was thinking Wis/Str/Dex/???

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-27, 09:02 PM
True. Should I switch my dex and str stat? The character hasn't been finalized yet.

Switch Int with Str, then Cha with Str. The 14 should be your Dump stat (Cha), while the Int score will help you. The 17 in Str needs to become an 18 or higher ASAP.

Shadowbane
2009-09-27, 09:04 PM
The issue is that my CHA gets a +4 from Saint, so I can't really effect that. CHA is already a base 13.

Kylarra
2009-09-27, 09:10 PM
The issue is that my CHA gets a +4 from Saint, so I can't really effect that. CHA is already a base 13.
You should put the base stats in parens so that we know you've applied the saint's stat mods already.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-27, 09:12 PM
The issue is that my CHA gets a +4 from Saint, so I can't really effect that. CHA is already a base 13.

Then lower your Wis a notch. To be honest, you really have to put effort into it to make Stunning Fist work properly, and you can't use 3 magic items due to VoP (all of which would have made Stunning Fist and friends very viable). Since you don't have access to those items, you can afford to drop Wis 2 points or so.

Draz74
2009-09-28, 12:51 AM
His name is Zane, and he didn't come from a monastery. I'm playing this similar to Exalted, actually, since he IS Exalted. He was always a disciplined young man, and was so devout he took a sacred vow of poverty. He worked with a paladin named Belisarius Graeme and a diviner named Aladar Moonshadow for some time, hunting down a group of elves known as the Maern'Rretynn that had slaughtered the Elven House of Os'Taesia.

Haha, as a fan of The Well of Ascension (http://www.amazon.com/Well-Ascension-Mistborn-Book/dp/B000VD9Y5I/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254117126&sr=8-4), this strikes me as terribly ironic. (One of the main villains of the book is named Zane. And he's ... very undisciplined, at least in some ways.)


Feats:
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Sacred Vow
Scared Vow of Poverty
Sanctify Ki Strike
Holy Ki Strike (Bonus feat)
Sanctify Natural Attack (Bonus feat)
Touch of Golden Ice (Bonus feat)

Yeah, Touch of Golden Ice in particular is an incredible feat at low levels, and never stops being somewhat decent as long as most of your enemies are evil.

You still may want to look into at least the feats in Tome of Battle. For example, if you stick with low Strength, a way to still be able to (occasionally) Trip effectively is to take Martial Study for some of the Setting Sun Throw maneuvers. And Snap Kick ... awesome.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 01:05 AM
you DM certainly seems to be with you on this one... That helps.
Why not propose one of the many various "monk fixes" to him and have him rule that those are monks now?
Or you could also play a reflavoring of some other kung fu based class as some have suggested and call it a monk.

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-28, 02:18 AM
you DM certainly seems to be with you on this one... That helps.
Why not propose one of the many various "monk fixes" to him and have him rule that those are monks now?
Or you could also play a reflavoring of some other kung fu based class as some have suggested and call it a monk.

A good monk fix is to propose that flurry of blows makes 1 attack into 2. This would mean you can flurry as a standard action (and after a charge, etc) As a DM, I would allow it, but of course it depends on your DM.

Otherwise, see if you can pick up Pounce (full round attack after charge) if I'm remembering things correctly.

lord_khaine
2009-09-28, 03:22 AM
Your monk looks decent enough, though i would recomend you put your highest stat in str, as its used for so much, to hit, damage, trip and grapple.

And in that regard i would also recomend you take the feat Improved grapple, you will get a lot more use for it than most people gives it credit for.

As for the feat combat reflexes, then i would personaly considder changing it, but you must know your own GM best, and if there are normaly more opponents ignoring the threat of a AoO, than ranget attacks, then i guess its worth it.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-28, 06:19 AM
Look into Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle. +4 monk level for unarmed damage. It was mentioned earlier; not sure if you caught it.

lord_khaine
2009-09-28, 06:24 AM
Im not sure it would be worth taking for him though, atm he is allready going to hit pretty hard, though a combination of improved natural attack, high str, exaltet bonus and the holy property (+2d6 holy damage).

In that case i would actualy recomend looking at feats that adds more options instead, things like blindfighting or Mage slayer.

Prime32
2009-09-28, 06:25 AM
Can I suggest combining the white dragonspawn template with that sorcerer/monk multiclass feat from Complete Arcane? It gives you a flight speed equal to double your land speed, so you'll be crazy-fast. The feat makes your monk abilities Cha-based, reducing MAD. Plus, with LA buy-off you're getting some useful sorcerer spells (like enlarge person and true strike) for free.

Oh, and if your DM allows it take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown). :smallbiggrin: Whenever you deal more than 10 damage you get a free trip attempt. If it succeeds you get to make another attack for free. If that attack deals more than 10 damage...

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-28, 06:26 AM
Ah. I'm unfamiliar with BoED. I suspected that might be the case, however, hence the phrase "look into".

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-28, 06:44 AM
Oh, and if your DM allows it take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown). :smallbiggrin: Whenever you deal more than 10 damage you get a free trip attempt. If it succeeds you get to make another attack for free. If that attack deals more than 10 damage...

Even if IMHO knockdown is a great feat and I love it, the thing is debated.

This is the errata from S&F:



p. 7, Knockdown
Insert to end of Benefit:
12/5/01 3
Sword and Fist Errata
Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats.
Insert may into “you may make a trip attack as a free action.”
After “whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee” insert: with a single attack


Someone says it is 3.0 but it makes more sense this way. And K. is anyway useful.

Prime32
2009-09-28, 07:02 AM
Oh well. Martial Study for some Setting Sun manouvers still works with Improved Trip.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-28, 07:44 AM
The most important thing you can do to improve a Monk requires a magic item, so do not go for Vow of Poverty. The item is the Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide), and after training with it you'll be able to take either 5' or 10' adjustments, not just 5' steps. (Plus sell the Sparring Dummy back for half price when you've finished training.) 10' steps give you a big tactical advantage. Full attack with flurry of blows, then move 10' away. (Put some cover or difficult terrain in the way to impede charges if you can.) The enemy needs to use a move action to close, then only gets one attack and can't move afterward. Full flurry on them again, and step 10' away. Repeat until they're dead.

The most important feats to add are Improved Natural Attack (an obvious one) and Snap Kick (Tome of Battle), which will give you an extra unarmed attack any time you make at least one melee attack. That includes the obvious standard attack and full attacks, but also attacks of opportunity and bonus attacks (such as from Improved Trip).

The most important magic item to keep is a Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a). Boost your kicks and punches with all the weapon enhancements you can afford.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 08:03 AM
Look into Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle. +4 monk level for unarmed damage. It was mentioned earlier; not sure if you caught it.

monk belt from the DMG:
1. gives +5
2. Does not stack with superior unarmed strike.
3. Does not use a feat

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-28, 08:04 AM
I doubt that the OP is going to abandon Vow of Poverty at this point in the game.

Also, the stacking is ambiguous, but eh.

Vizzerdrix
2009-09-28, 08:22 AM
The feats Superior Unarmed Strike (Bot9S) and Hidden Talent (XPH, pg 67) are good for monks (expansion comes to mind). Also have your DM look at this -> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070327a and then get yourself some nice gauntlets.

An Earthsilk tunic from Races or the Stone can help a little bit with your defenses as well.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-28, 08:28 AM
Also have your DM look at this -> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070327a and then get yourself some nice gauntlets.
Please don't. Monks have no proficiency with gauntlets, and there's a whole world of contention involved with that.

A Necklace of Natural Attacks does what the gauntlet advocates want, costs half as much as a pair of magically enhanced gauntlets, and (best of all) you can skip any arguments about the rules.

Dixieboy
2009-09-28, 08:32 AM
Play a Lawful Good Saint Deepspawn Illithid monk with VoP.

It makes grappling worth it.

Your mission? Show the world that monks mean business.

Tiny minor downside is the +8 LA. But a Mind Flaying Monk is an effective monk.

That is sick, sick and wrong.

gdiddy
2009-09-28, 09:55 AM
Inhuman reach with 6 iterative tentacle attacks, all of which allow for grapple checks starting at +19 (+7 Lvl +4 Str + 4 Imp. Grapple + 2 Deep Spawn + 2 Flexible Limbs) at level two monk. Every two rounds, you are killing something. Combine with Clever Wrestling for even more hijinks. That's really without optimizing it.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-28, 09:58 AM
A Necklace of Natural Attacks does what the gauntlet advocates want,

Well, except that you can have Flaming Gauntlets, but not a Flaming Necklace...

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-28, 10:26 AM
Well, except that you can have Flaming Gauntlets, but not a Flaming Necklace...You sure about that? (http://s54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/?action=view&current=image1xl.jpg)

Calmar
2009-09-28, 10:40 AM
for stats

Str; 16

dex: 18

Con: 15

Int: 14

Wis: 17

Cha: 13




58 point buy is kewl!!1 :smallwink:

jiriku
2009-09-28, 10:44 AM
The snap kick feat in conjunction with the decisive strike ACF will allow you to make two attacks as a standard action, or two attacks for double damage as a full-round action. At 11th level, decisive strike improves and you'll be able to make three attacks for double damage as a full-round action.

Combine this with improved trip, combat reflexes, and possibly mage slayer and/or thicket of blades stance, and you'll likely get several additional opportunity attacks with doubled damage in every combat.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-28, 12:34 PM
Well, except that you can have Flaming Gauntlets, but not a Flaming Necklace...
I don't see why not. You can have throwing and returning natural attacks; so if you can magically make your head fly off, butt some enemy, and return to your body, there really isn't any reason you can't have burning elbows.

Willis888
2009-09-28, 01:12 PM
Anyway. Human, starting scores 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13. Help!

Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 17
Int: 14
Wis: 15
Cha: 13

Get your Str as high as you can, and get the feats available to you that will maximize attacks per round. Items that make you move faster by some multiplier of your current rate sets your speed to ludicrous yards per round (Boots of Speed, etc...), and you'll want to pick something up to help with saving throws.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-28, 01:14 PM
58 point buy is kewl!!1 :smallwink:

Maybe that's why he's playing a monk. :P

I got 18/18/18/15/15/11 once (that third 18 might have been a 15). My first thought was to play a monk.

Sir Giacomo
2009-09-28, 02:13 PM
Hi Shadowbane,

here is a VoP lvl 1-20 monk build (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527386/Fighter_can_probably_do_Unarmed_better_than_Monk&post_num=201#331885450) that I once did over at the WoTC boards.

Maybe it can help you. It focuses on WIS as a stat and maximises stunning fist DC.

- Giacomo

Sophismata
2009-09-29, 01:21 AM
Um, if you're going to level 30, you're going to have problems.

Monk unarmed damage does NOT improve past 20th level. This means that you shouldn't take Superior Unarmed Strike, as it won't give you any benefit past level 16. Vow of Poverty will cripple your attack, because you won't be able to use magic items to make up for the lack of damage progression, and you'll never get the ability to pierce DR/epic.

If you're in for the long haul, I'd seriously recommend looking at Tashalatora, another class, such as Unarmed Swordsage, or multiclassing 20 Monk with something else.

Edit: Oops, no epic progression on the ToB stuff, either. Multiclassing is probably your best bet.


More stuff:

For stats, ditch Wisdom and focus on Int. You can use Int instead of Wis for monk benefits with a feat.

Alternatively, stick with Wis and use Tashalatora to mix up Ardent or Physchic Warrior with Monk. If you want to keep things simple, you could go 4 Monk / 26 Ardent. Hell, one of the Ardent's mantles will qualify you for Warshaper (you get Metamorphosis), but you can easily take a psionic class "straight" while mainting the paradigms of "Martial Artist", and "Mind Over Body".


My final recommendation would be a mix of Cleric / Crusader / Monk / Sacred Fist / Ruby Knight Vindicator / Swordsage. But it's a lot of bookwork.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-29, 01:24 AM
Hi Shadowbane,

here is a VoP lvl 1-20 monk build (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527386/Fighter_can_probably_do_Unarmed_better_than_Monk&post_num=201#331885450) that I once did over at the WoTC boards.
[S]

Shadowbane, you should play it and report back to us. I'd love to know how it goes...

Kurald Galain
2009-09-29, 03:47 AM
I don't see why not. You can have throwing and returning natural attacks;

...how, exactly?

I'm not disbelieving it, but it's so funny that I need to know how to do this :smalltongue:

olentu
2009-09-29, 03:54 AM
...how, exactly?

I'm not disbelieving it, but it's so funny that I need to know how to do this :smalltongue:

As I recall those are the example enchantments on the necklace of natural weapons from savage species.

Sophismata
2009-09-29, 03:58 AM
Shadowbane, you should play it and report back to us. I'd love to know how it goes...

You know, I was watching this thread, and seeing your post constantly change with time has left me feeling philosophically uncertain. :smalltongue:

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-29, 04:37 AM
You know, I was watching this thread, and seeing your post constantly change with time has left me feeling philosophically uncertain. :smalltongue:

I suspect that has less to do with an opinion changing, and more to do with diplomacy increasing. I'd like to think we just watched a few free class rerolls.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-29, 08:01 AM
...how, exactly?

I'm not disbelieving it, but it's so funny that I need to know how to do this :smalltongue:
Go to this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) and look at the bottom of the page. You don't need to buy Savage Species, because WotC has released the Necklace of Natural Attacks as free online content. Throwing and returning are the weapon enhancements that they use as examples of things you can do with your natural weapons. Since they explicitly blessed the most ludicrous example possible, having flaming unarmed strikes has got to be pretty ordinary.

olentu
2009-09-29, 05:13 PM
Go to this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) and look at the bottom of the page. You don't need to buy Savage Species, because WotC has released the Necklace of Natural Attacks as free online content. Throwing and returning are the weapon enhancements that they use as examples of things you can do with your natural weapons. Since they explicitly blessed the most ludicrous example possible, having flaming unarmed strikes has got to be pretty ordinary.

Strange the one in the link is the "Necklace of Natural Attacks" while the wondrous item from savage species is the "Necklace of Natural Weapons". It seems that the "Necklace of Natural Attacks" is also missing a part of a sentence in the "Necklace of Natural Weapons" that makes the "Necklace of Natural Weapons" more explicitly permissive then the "Necklace of Natural Attacks".

KellKheraptis
2009-09-29, 05:30 PM
If you would like, I could post the devil lord of versatility, who obtains QUADRUPLE NINES with zero fast progression classes, and BAB 16 by 20th level. You'll be a Kalashtar, but that's not so bad ;)

Jalor
2009-09-29, 06:04 PM
Unarmed Swordsage 20. You do everything the Monk can do and more, and you do it all better.

...Eh?
2009-09-29, 08:18 PM
Please don't. Monks have no proficiency with gauntlets, and there's a whole world of contention involved with that.

A Necklace of Natural Attacks does what the gauntlet advocates want, costs half as much as a pair of magically enhanced gauntlets, and (best of all) you can skip any arguments about the rules.

Well, no rule arguments, other than that the monk also isn't proficient with his own fists. :smallwink:

Sophismata
2009-09-30, 02:29 AM
If you would like, I could post the devil lord of versatility, who obtains QUADRUPLE NINES with zero fast progression classes, and BAB 16 by 20th level. You'll be a Kalashtar, but that's not so bad ;)

Please do, I would love you for ever.

Doc Roc
2009-09-30, 02:55 AM
Please do, I would love you for ever.

I'd say "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" but I work with Kell a lot, so.. :smallredface:

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-30, 03:41 AM
Unarmed Swordsage 20. You do everything the Monk can do and more, and you do it all better.

page 3? Generally is post #2, post #3 at max. Congratulation, playgrounders, we manage to hold us til page 3.

elliott20
2009-09-30, 04:16 AM
Hi Shadowbane,

here is a VoP lvl 1-20 monk build (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527386/Fighter_can_probably_do_Unarmed_better_than_Monk&post_num=201#331885450) that I once did over at the WoTC boards.

Maybe it can help you. It focuses on WIS as a stat and maximises stunning fist DC.

- Giacomo
I would love to see someone actually play this and give us a report.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-30, 04:32 AM
I would love to see someone actually play this and give us a report.

As long as it isn't me, lol. I personally despise VoP's lack of versatility.

EDIT: To be fair, I rather dislike most of BoED.

elliott20
2009-09-30, 04:45 AM
oh I'm just curious about how Giacomo's monk will actually fair in real play. I mean, by this point, the giacomo monk is almost a meme and yet I don't think I have ever seen a report on how well this monk actually plays out in practice.

Quietus
2009-09-30, 04:49 AM
page 3? Generally is post #2, post #3 at max. Congratulation, playgrounders, we manage to hold us til page 3.

Indeed. We had a couple references, but to go this long before someone posts the one-sentence auto-reply.. it's a nice change.

Thurbane
2009-09-30, 05:26 AM
Indeed. We had a couple references, but to go this long before someone posts the one-sentence auto-reply.. it's a nice change.
Indeed - deserves a golf-clap. :smallwink:

Kurald Galain
2009-09-30, 05:50 AM
oh I'm just curious about how Giacomo's monk will actually fair in real play. I mean, by this point, the giacomo monk is almost a meme and yet I don't think I have ever seen a report on how well this monk actually plays out in practice.

We have this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124758), about an ongoing play-by-post game. The status of the monk so far is as follows:



Giacomo: 2 deaths, once in combat, once as a result of drowning due to water creatures. 1 instance of being mind controlled by the enemy.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-30, 06:09 AM
In fairness, those numbers aren't provided in context.

Most other party members have one death.

I'm not familiar with how often the character has been targeted by mind controlling effects.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-30, 06:16 AM
In fairness, those numbers aren't provided in context.
That's why I provided the link, of course.


Most other party members have one death.
That's part of it, yes. Another bit of context is that most other party members have killed several of the opposing monsters, whereas the monk (so far) has not. At any rate the test is not finished yet.

Telonius
2009-09-30, 08:22 AM
...how, exactly?

I'm not disbelieving it, but it's so funny that I need to know how to do this :smalltongue:

I'd totally allow it for a Warforged Monk. :smallbiggrin:

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-30, 08:28 AM
I'd totally allow it for a Warforged Monk. :smallbiggrin:

I will do it! As soon as possible.

Aaand.. I will call it "Telonius' Monk". :smallbiggrin:.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-30, 09:04 AM
I'd totally allow it for a Warforged Monk. :smallbiggrin:

Rocket Punch!

Willis888
2009-09-30, 09:13 AM
For emphasis to points made above: heavily enchanted monk-specific weapons/gloves are the way to go at epic levels to deal appropriate damage. You might get 9 or more attacks per round, so every bonus gets applied many times over.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-30, 09:41 AM
For emphasis to points made above: heavily enchanted monk-specific weapons/gloves are the way to go at epic levels to deal appropriate damage. You might get 9 or more attacks per round, so every bonus gets applied many times over.

Well, if you want to use the sage interpretation of flurry + TWF, add snapkick and you have 11 attacks at -2.

maybe I'm wrong, and it needs:

1) Dm allows the FAQ's interpretation

2) DM allows such interpretation for Superior TWF

3) you have te 25 dex for Superior TWF, and we are talking of mr MADness.

Androgeus
2009-09-30, 10:29 AM
...how, exactly?

I'm not disbelieving it, but it's so funny that I need to know how to do this :smalltongue:

Rayman, uses "Necklace of Natural Throwing, Returning Attacks" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayman)

Eldariel
2009-09-30, 10:41 AM
Rayman, uses "Necklace of Natural Throwing, Returning Attacks" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayman)

Or just Kensai. Then it's inherent.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-30, 10:59 AM
Rayman, uses "Necklace of Natural Throwing, Returning Attacks" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayman)

Okay, so now all the monk needs is a Headpiece of Helicopter Hair :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon
2009-09-30, 11:40 AM
Well, if you want to use the sage interpretation of flurry + TWF, add snapkick and you have 11 attacks at -2.

maybe I'm wrong
Two-Weapon Fighting imposes at least a -2 penalty to all attacks.

Snap Kick imposes a -2 penalty to all attacks.

You'll be at -4 or worse.

Sir Giacomo
2009-09-30, 02:13 PM
oh I'm just curious about how Giacomo's monk will actually fair in real play. I mean, by this point, the giacomo monk is almost a meme and yet I don't think I have ever seen a report on how well this monk actually plays out in practice.

Trying to clarify a misunderstanding:
The link I provided above was meant as a suggestion to the OP who mentioned preference for a (non-core) VoP monk.
It actually has absolutely nothing to do with the joker monk build I once did, since that build was core only and relied in part on using UMD and items.
As such, it also has nothing to do with the core monk build that is currently doing a test of spite playtest.

Very funny, that.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Talya
2009-09-30, 02:14 PM
Two-Weapon Fighting imposes at least a -2 penalty to all attacks.

Snap Kick imposes a -2 penalty to all attacks.

You'll be at -4 or worse.

Circle Kick is worth picking up, though.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-30, 02:23 PM
Trying to clarify a misunderstanding:
The link I provided above was meant as a suggestion to the OP who mentioned preference for a (non-core) VoP monk.
It actually has absolutely nothing to do with the joker monk build I once did, since that build was core only and relied in part on using UMD and items.
As such, it also has nothing to do with the core monk build that is currently doing a test of spite playtest.

Very funny, that.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

If you want to talk about your VoP monk, mind explaining to the OP why it only has 153 HP at level 20, and how you plan on mitigating this problem?

Clearly it's not going to be by avoiding attacks: an attack bonus of +40 is achievable by level 20 without too much effort. 20 from BaB, 12 from strength, 5 from weapon, +3 from misc. items or feats = 40

Your AB, by contrast, is +29. Is that good enough to get the job done?

Blackfang108
2009-09-30, 02:25 PM
Circle Kick is worth picking up, though.

Where's that from?

Talya
2009-09-30, 02:30 PM
Where's that from?

I believe it's Sword & Fist (which is a 3.0 book, but is by RAW still legal in 3.5 since it wasn't replaced with any other version of the same feat.)

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Circle_Kick,SF

Really helps when fighting multiple opponents, as it works with every successful attack you make in a full attack action.

Edit: by RAW, it should even key off itself, but any DM will nix that.

Sir Giacomo
2009-09-30, 02:34 PM
If you want to talk about your VoP monk, mind explaining to the OP why it only has 153 HP at level 20, and how you plan on mitigating this problem?

Clearly it's not going to be by avoiding attacks: an attack bonus of +40 is achievable by level 20 without too much effort. 20 from BaB, 12 from strength, 5 from weapon, +3 from misc. items or feats = 40

As I said, it is a VoP build meant to provide additional ideas to the OP. It says nothing about whether I think that it is as powerful as other level 20 melee builds as you seem to imply.

- Giacomo

Willis888
2009-09-30, 03:57 PM
I read Circle Kick as triggering once-per-Full Attack action off the first successful attack to occur while a second target is in reach. +1

Snap Kick +1

Cleave +1

Haste +1

An off-hand monk weapon +1

Imp. TWF +1

And if you are duel-wielding monk weapons you still get +1 attack per round for being unarmed and can use Flurry of Blows for +1 attack.

So that is 12 attacks per round at -6 (two with 1/2 str bonus to damage), 11 at -4 (two at half bonus), 10 at -2 (two at half bonus), 10 at -4, 9 at -2 , or 8 without penalty.

I think that if you get TWF you should also take 7 levels of Weapon Master and Devastating Critical, and would advise against duel-wielding as a pure monk.

Keld Denar
2009-09-30, 04:02 PM
Needs more Aptitude Kukiri and Roundabout Kick/Lightning Maces abuse....

KellKheraptis
2009-09-30, 04:52 PM
Please do, I would love you for ever.

Kalashtar Arcane Swordsage 3/Warblade 1/Arcane Swordsage +1/Swiftblade 10/Incantatrix 3/Warblade +1/Arcane Swordsage +1

Be sure to snag that Tome of Ancient Lore and the True Believer feat. You now may learn NI spells, off any list that can become arcane, where NI = 1 per day, for however many years you wanna use up. I'll let you figure out how to abuse that. But there's more! Pay a psion to implant PsiChirugy, so you can add powers you find to your repertoire yourself. You naturally have 20 psp at 20th level, and if you need more, cast mental pinnacle. Need a special ability? Ever seen what domains get? Planar Touchstone feat! And it can be reattuned to change the domain (and domain powers and spells by extension). Last but not least : you've got a time stop effect that works in an AMF, so even in a worst case scenario, you've got a way out. And let's not forget : you have Ex haste with an extra standard action, and have 9th level maneuvers! Oh, and CL/IL of 22. Huzzah!

Prime32
2009-09-30, 05:05 PM
Kalashtar Arcane Swordsage 3/Warblade 1/Arcane Swordsage +1/Swiftblade 10/Incantatrix 3/Warblade +1/Arcane Swordsage +1

Be sure to snag that Tome of Ancient Lore and the True Believer feat. You now may learn NI spells, off any list that can become arcane, where NI = 1 per day, for however many years you wanna use up. I'll let you figure out how to abuse that. But there's more! Pay a psion to implant PsiChirugy, so you can add powers you find to your repertoire yourself. You naturally have 20 psp at 20th level, and if you need more, cast mental pinnacle. Need a special ability? Ever seen what domains get? Planar Touchstone feat! And it can be reattuned to change the domain (and domain powers and spells by extension). Last but not least : you've got a time stop effect that works in an AMF, so even in a worst case scenario, you've got a way out. And let's not forget : you have Ex haste with an extra standard action, and have 9th level maneuvers! Oh, and CL/IL of 22. Huzzah!
Good luck getting the DM to allow arcane swordsage. :smalltongue: While the unarmed variant has full details on its mechanics, that's more a bunch of vague suggestions. If you can just use spells as manouvers it becomes one of the most powerful classes ever.

olentu
2009-09-30, 05:14 PM
Kalashtar Arcane Swordsage 3/Warblade 1/Arcane Swordsage +1/Swiftblade 10/Incantatrix 3/Warblade +1/Arcane Swordsage +1

Be sure to snag that Tome of Ancient Lore and the True Believer feat. You now may learn NI spells, off any list that can become arcane, where NI = 1 per day, for however many years you wanna use up. I'll let you figure out how to abuse that. But there's more! Pay a psion to implant PsiChirugy, so you can add powers you find to your repertoire yourself. You naturally have 20 psp at 20th level, and if you need more, cast mental pinnacle. Need a special ability? Ever seen what domains get? Planar Touchstone feat! And it can be reattuned to change the domain (and domain powers and spells by extension). Last but not least : you've got a time stop effect that works in an AMF, so even in a worst case scenario, you've got a way out. And let's not forget : you have Ex haste with an extra standard action, and have 9th level maneuvers! Oh, and CL/IL of 22. Huzzah!

What no channel greater celestial and true mind switch.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-30, 06:51 PM
What no channel greater celestial and true mind switch.

CGC maybe, just to become an outsider when I want to, but no TMS. Then I'd lose my 20 free PSP's :P Besides, if I DO want the power, read the section about snagging PsiChir, as that's effectively NI powers.

olentu
2009-09-30, 07:06 PM
CGC maybe, just to become an outsider when I want to, but no TMS. Then I'd lose my 20 free PSP's :P Besides, if I DO want the power, read the section about snagging PsiChir, as that's effectively NI powers.

I was not saying those things because they would be impossible to get. Rather I was listing them because given the particular interpretations (that I am taking to be true in this case since I do not care to check if I feel it properly supported) you are working under why not get them.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-30, 07:10 PM
I was not saying those things because they would be impossible to get. Rather I was listing them because given the particular interpretations (that I am taking to be true in this case since I do not care to check if I feel it properly supported) you are working under why not get them.

Oh I get the point, but my point is why bother going Super Saiyan 4 when Kaioken makes the bad guys fall down :P Anything overkill beyond being able to do literally anything is just showing off for the beatsticks :tongue:

olentu
2009-09-30, 07:16 PM
Oh I get the point, but my point is why bother going Super Saiyan 4 when Kaioken makes the bad guys fall down :P Anything overkill beyond being able to do literally anything is just showing off for the beatsticks :tongue:

I suppose that there are few things I would consider as to much overkill if one is already going to put in any overkill at all.

Volkov
2009-09-30, 07:47 PM
At the later levels, your fists will begin to start dealing somewhat ridiculous amounts of damage, but the wizard is better at that than you, you do however, get to move RIDICULOUSLY fast.

Flickerdart
2009-09-30, 08:49 PM
At the later levels, your fists will begin to start dealing somewhat ridiculous amounts of damage, but the wizard is better at that than you, you do however, get to move RIDICULOUSLY fast.
Monk fists will never deal as much damage as a THFer with PA, regardless of the dice size. Unless, I suppose, you go Colossal. The Wizard is also better than you at moving fast.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-30, 08:50 PM
But the fighter could also go Colossal...

AslanCross
2009-09-30, 08:57 PM
tome of battle is allowed, Magic of Incarnum is not. All the completes are allowed, BoED, Miniature's Handbook.

In this case, I highly suggest Monk 2/ Unarmed Swordsage X. Add in some Rogue if you want to be a stealthy assassin type who can rip out a guy's spleen with two fingers.

I only suggest Monk 2 because it gets you a couple of bonus feats. If you want a grapple focus, take Improved Grapple and later get the Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance.

Flickerdart
2009-09-30, 09:08 PM
But the fighter could also go Colossal...
I think fists scale better than weapon damage, though. The Monk gets more from Colossal than the Fighter, whose main source of damage is the +lots from PA, anyway.

AslanCross
2009-09-30, 09:24 PM
I think fists scale better than weapon damage, though. The Monk gets more from Colossal than the Fighter, whose main source of damage is the +lots from PA, anyway.

Nope, it follows the exact same die progression.

Rainbownaga
2009-09-30, 09:52 PM
Martial training to get the feat that lets you jump as a swift action is a must, plus maxing out your skill in jump.

Remember that speed adds bonuses to your jump score, so half the time you could just jump up into the air and punch them without a fly spell.

Unfortunately, it's not clear what happens when you hit the ground again.

Darrin
2009-09-30, 10:29 PM
Martial training to get the feat that lets you jump as a swift action is a must, plus maxing out your skill in jump.


Requires two feats, since Sudden Leap has 1 tiger claw maneuver as a prereq. You can get around this by picking up a Novice Tiger Claw Bracers (3000 GP) for the prereq and then taking Martial Study: Sudden Leap. You can then sell/trade away the bracers, since maneuvers don't go away when you lose the prereqs.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-01, 03:24 AM
Requires two feats, since Sudden Leap has 1 tiger claw maneuver as a prereq. You can get around this by picking up a Novice Tiger Claw Bracers (3000 GP) for the prereq and then taking Martial Study: Sudden Leap. You can then sell/trade away the bracers, since maneuvers don't go away when you lose the prereqs. That's not correct when you gain the maneuver through Martial Study.
Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. You won't have Martial Study for that particular maneuver if at any time you fail to meet the feat's prerequisites. The fact that the prerequisite for the particular maneuver is buried in the feat's Benefit section doesn't change the rule.
Benefit: When you gain this feat, you must choose a discipline of martial maneuvers, such as Desert Wind. The key skill for the chosen discipline becomes a class skill for all your classes (current and future).

Select any maneuver from the chosen discipline for which you meet the prerequisite...
If you do not have martial adept levels, you can use this maneuver once per encounter as a martial adept with an initiator level equal to 1/2 your character level.
...
Once you choose a maneuver with this feat, you cannot change it.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-01, 03:50 AM
Two-Weapon Fighting imposes at least a -2 penalty to all attacks.

Snap Kick imposes a -2 penalty to all attacks.

You'll be at -4 or worse.

:smalleek:

Caught! I apologize. yes, is -4 :smallredface:

At that point, I wouldn't go devastating critical. I'd go Vorpal Strike and dipping in classes that allow extra movements and pounce. (psywar + swordsage + dire charge could be 4 move + full attack in a row, if SS is taken enough late due to ToB multiclass rules).

If you see the ELH errata, the monk woud crit at 18-20. Add Roundabout Kick (spelling?) from CW, and the vorpal will proc for sure!

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-01, 05:01 AM
That's not correct when you gain the maneuver through Martial Study. You won't have Martial Study for that particular maneuver if at any time you fail to meet the feat's prerequisites. The fact that the prerequisite for the particular maneuver is buried in the feat's Benefit section doesn't change the rule.

There's a bit of contention here. That's not a feat prerequisite. It's a choice. You can't choose a maneuver you can't pick, however, it's not a prerequisite for the feat, in the manner that "Dodge" is a prerequisite for "Mobility".

"...for which you meet the prerequisite..." defines the choice, not the qualification. So it could be ruled both ways.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-01, 05:42 AM
There's a bit of contention here. That's not a feat prerequisite. It's a choice. You can't choose a maneuver you can't pick, however, it's not a prerequisite for the feat, in the manner that "Dodge" is a prerequisite for "Mobility".

"...for which you meet the prerequisite..." defines the choice, not the qualification. So it could be ruled both ways.

IMHO, this sounds odd.. I mean, in a game where everything (feats, PrC) is lost if you lose prereqs, this tihng works?

Respectfully, it seems to me, at best, forcing (I admit that may seem odd from the man that suggested the TWF + flurry :smalltongue:).

Talya
2009-10-01, 08:30 AM
That's not correct when you gain the maneuver through Martial Study. You won't have Martial Study for that particular maneuver if at any time you fail to meet the feat's prerequisites. The fact that the prerequisite for the particular maneuver is buried in the feat's Benefit section doesn't change the rule.


Although you can correct this after the fact. Maneuvers can support each other's prerequisites.

Say for instance you take a level 1 tiger claw maneuver. Later you take a level 3 tiger claw maneuver that has a prerequisite of knowing 1 tiger claw maneuver. At the same time, you also trade out that level 1 tiger claw maneuver for a second level 3 tiger claw maneuver that also has a prerequisite of 1 tiger claw maneuver. They both qualify the other.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-01, 09:07 AM
IMHO, this sounds odd.. I mean, in a game where everything (feats, PrC) is lost if you lose prereqs, this tihng works?

Respectfully, it seems to me, at best, forcing (I admit that may seem odd from the man that suggested the TWF + flurry :smalltongue:).

CustServ and the Sage both agreed on this, as does the FAQ. I'd say this is one of the times where they are correct, despite the ability being a little dubious.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-01, 11:48 AM
CustServ and the Sage both agreed on this, as does the FAQ. I'd say this is one of the times where they are correct, despite the ability being a little dubious.

Well... true... Take a look:




Q: All of the new base classes from Tome of Battle offer the option of swapping out an old maneuver to gain a new maneuver at certain levels.
What happens if, as a result of swapping out an old maneuver, I can no longer meet the pre-requisites for another stance or maneuver that I currently know? Suppose, for instance, that I currently only have the following 2 maneuvers/stances from the Iron Heart discipline: A) Absolute Steel, and B) Disarming Strike. Absolute Steel is a stance that has one Iron Heart maneuver as a pre-requisite. Disarming Strike currently fulfills that pre-requisite for me. Suppose I reach 4th level and decide to swap out Disarming Strike for another maneuver from a different discipline. I no longer meet the pre-requisites for the Absolute Steel stance. Am I still allowed to use the Absolute Steel stance? What if Absolute Steel were a maneuver instead of a stance; would I be allowed to use it?
A: Going with a strict interpretation of the rules, you would only need to have the appropriate number of maneuvers to meet a prerequisite when you needed to learn the maneuver, not if you wanted to use that maneuver later. So the character in question would still be able to use the Absolute Steel stance even though you have given up your only Iron Heart maneuver. So again, you only have to meet the prerequisites when you learn the maneuver or stance, not when you want to use ready or use it. I hope that clears things up.



Nevertheless, about the item:




Q: Can you use a wondrous martial item, such as shadow hands, to meet the prerequisite for a maneuver?
A: No, because these maneuvers are temporary bonus maneuvers, and do not belong to your actual maneuvers known



EDIT: wow, look at this.




Q: Can a maneuver known through the crown of white ravens be used as a prerequisite for learning another maneuver?
A: Because abilities and bonuses granted through magic items can be used to meet prerequisites, you can use the granted maneuver to meet prerequisites. You would immediately lose the ability to initiate the maneuver learned through this method if you remove the item, though, unless you have met the prerequisites in another way in the meanwhile.




This is just for fun. Stoopidtallkid, is dedicated to you..




Q: When using the high level diamond mind maneuver Time stands still, you can make two full attack actions in a row separate from each other. Suppose you normally get 5 attacks, three from base attack and two more from two weapon and improved two weapon fighting. You use Raging Mongoose to gain two attacks with each weapon at your highest base attack, this ability lasts for one round. Does Raging mongoose let you make two extra attacks with each weapon for each full attack action, or does the limit of two attacks for each weapon apply only for the first full attack.
A: You can make two extra attacks for each full attack action that you make with this combination. So you would get the extra attacks in the first full attack action, and get them again in the second full attack action.

Q: I read on the boards that a forum member asked you how Raging/Dancing Mongoose worked with Time Stand Still, and you replied that you get the extra attacks per full attack action, so you would get double the attacks from Raging/Dancing mongoose using Time Stand Still.
Now I looked the maneuvers over in Tome of Battle, and I can't figure out why that is. The maneuver states that it last until end of turn and you get some extra attacks per weapon wielded (max of 2 or 4), nowhere in the maneuver is it said that the extra attacks come per full attack action. If you read about being hasted, it very specifically says you get the extra attack as part of a full attack action and therefore you will get an extra hasted attack from using Time Stand Still. But I can't see why you would get double bonus from Dancing/Raging Mongoose.
So my question is, why did you rule it that way? Have I overlooked something or?
A: Hmm.. Not sure who answered it that way, but they must have misunderstood the question! You could initiate Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose, and Raging Mongoose would give you four extra attacks that turn, two with each weapon you wield! But only four. not Eight. You would be able to choose which full attack action to apply the extra attacks to during your turn.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-01, 11:57 AM
Actually, if you lose requirements of a PrC, you may not take further levels in it. But unless you've violated something that the PrC specifically says is a no-no, you keep the current features that you have.

Doc Roc
2009-10-01, 12:05 PM
I believe we've let our e- (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3286166)motions cloud our judgement. It's pretty clear that we've strayed from topic. What are your thoughts on the following build?

Hoomin
Monk 2/Ardent 4
Monastic training, <something good> , Tashalatoran, Prac.Mani.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-01, 12:08 PM
As monk builds go, it's solid. Most of the worthwhile features of the monk. I'd likely choose:

Paladin 2 / Monk 2 / Ardent 2

Monastic Training, Talashtora, Practiced Manifester.

That gets you Evasion, Divine Grace, And a Manifester level of 6.

For the last feat? Ascetic Knight?

Curmudgeon
2009-10-01, 12:22 PM
Actually, if you lose requirements of a PrC, you may not take further levels in it. But unless you've violated something that the PrC specifically says is a no-no, you keep the current features that you have.
Mostly correct. But prestige classes from Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane have different rules, which strip you of all class features the instant you fail to meet any of the class entry requirements.

Edit: ... and there's no way to get them back.

Doc Roc
2009-10-01, 12:26 PM
Those rules are over-ridden by the more recent ones in the RC, just like handling of Faerun's regional feats was over-ridden by PGtF.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-01, 12:34 PM
Those rules are over-ridden by the more recent ones in the RC, just like handling of Faerun's regional feats was over-ridden by PGtF.
Gee, you'd have to point out the source for me to believe that. I've found no rules regarding prestige classes in Rules Compendium.

Doc Roc
2009-10-01, 12:43 PM
Gee, you'd have to point out the source for me to believe that. I've found no rules regarding prestige classes in Rules Compendium.

Would complete mage and similar suffice? As these are core mechanics, they are over-ridden by the most recent version. This is how the whole darn game works, and if I can't sell you on this then I think we have a bit of a ideological gap that may not be bridgeable.