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Urist Ironblood
2009-09-27, 07:38 PM
I'm DMing an encounter with the Crawling Claw (Open Grave p.142) and there's a pack of four serving as backup for a Force Spectre. I fully expect them to pin down one of my party's three ranged attackers and end up stacked 4 to a square on top of him or her. If either of the other two ranged attackers tries to target it, are they in any danger of hitting their teammate? How about if a player tries to make a melee weapon attack against it?

tcrudisi
2009-09-27, 08:04 PM
Well, that's not quite how those monsters were designed to be run... but, I like the way you are thinking.

If you want them to run as a pack like that, there are two options that I can think of:

1) Impose a -2 penalty to all attack rolls. There is no chance for the party to hit their ally.

2) Give the Claws an ability: Scurry (Immediate Interrupt): When three or more Claws occupy the same square as a creature that is the target of their Hampering Claws ability, they can instead make that creature the target of an incoming attack. (Note: since it is an immediate action, they can only do this once a turn)

I like the second idea best, personally. Just make sure they work as a group and only get to do it once a round.

Really, the Claws are designed to attack from an adjacent square, not the square that a player occupies. But if you want to let them for whatever reason, just go with one of the above ideas.

Urist Ironblood
2009-09-28, 01:34 PM
Really, the Claws are designed to attack from an adjacent square, not the square that a player occupies. But if you want to let them for whatever reason, just go with one of the above ideas.

I thought I had read that tiny creatures have melee reach 0 unless otherwise specified -- they need to occupy the same space as a medium creature in order to attack (but no more than four may occupy the same space as a medium). Or did I read that incorrectly? The Hampering Claws power definitely talks about being adjacent, but I think that's so that you can't get more than a square away once they're on top of you.

tcrudisi
2009-09-28, 07:06 PM
You are correct. I just re-read page 282 and 283 of the PHB. Apparently, tiny creatures have a melee range of 0, and so must occupy the same square in order to make an attack. However, since the Crawling Claws are the only monster to have the ability "Hampering Claws", I assume that you can be adjacent (or on the opponent) for the ability to work.

Do note that this means that the players will get an opportunity attack unless the claws shift from an adjacent square onto the players. Sorta lame considering these guys are minions. Unless you house-rule otherwise, which in this case I might just so the players will have a challenge.

Since I've been thinking of this, I would personally just impose a -2 penalty due to "cover" and they have no chance of hitting their ally. Technically the claws should not get that, as the player will always work to make it as easy as possible for their allies to hit the claws. However, it's not as though the ally can step to the side to let an arrow past them... instead, they are trying to get some claws out in the open. Maybe they have to turn around, maybe the claw is just running back and forth... regardless, it would be harder to hit him considering he's on one of your allies. I would impose a -2 penalty... but I'd also tell my players why I was imposing that penalty and inform them that this is the exception, not the rule.

Urist Ironblood
2009-09-29, 06:52 PM
You are correct. I just re-read page 282 and 283 of the PHB. Apparently, tiny creatures have a melee range of 0, and so must occupy the same square in order to make an attack. However, since the Crawling Claws are the only monster to have the ability "Hampering Claws", I assume that you can be adjacent (or on the opponent) for the ability to work.

Yes, I'm going to rule that as "adjacent (as per medium-on-medium combat) or closer".


Do note that this means that the players will get an opportunity attack unless the claws shift from an adjacent square onto the players. Sorta lame considering these guys are minions. Unless you house-rule otherwise, which in this case I might just so the players will have a challenge.

I could add recharge to their encounter power -- they can shift their full move once per encounter as it is. I don't imagine they'll need to move on (I foresee them getting sliced & diced on their first target), but if they do, I'll let the power auto-recharge when their target is dropped. Also, if they successfully make their attack, I'm going to rule that they're on (as opposed to "in the same square as") the target.


Since I've been thinking of this, I would personally just impose a -2 penalty due to "cover" and they have no chance of hitting their ally. Technically the claws should not get that, as the player will always work to make it as easy as possible for their allies to hit the claws. However, it's not as though the ally can step to the side to let an arrow past them... instead, they are trying to get some claws out in the open. Maybe they have to turn around, maybe the claw is just running back and forth... regardless, it would be harder to hit him considering he's on one of your allies. I would impose a -2 penalty... but I'd also tell my players why I was imposing that penalty and inform them that this is the exception, not the rule.

Having watched my players in action, I suspect the solution will probably be "Hold perfectly still and take Total Defense. I'll nuke you on my turn." ...followed by a Close or Area attack on the PC. Nonetheless, I'm going to keep this suggestion close at hand (ha!) for tomorrow's session. Thanks for your help!

Oh, one last thing: suppose a player wants to grab one of the hands and throw it -- say, against a wall with great force? The creature is two sizes smaller (except in the case of the halfling) but clearly weighs less than a throwing hammer. My gut feel is a grab attack (Str. vs Reflex) followed by a heavy thrown attack at the wall (Str vs. AC of 5 to hit the chunk of wall, and 1d10 "falling" damage), which is theoretically two standard actions... but I think once you've grabbed the thing, chucking it away should be a minor.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-30, 03:26 AM
If either of the other two ranged attackers tries to target it, are they in any danger of hitting their teammate? How about if a player tries to make a melee weapon attack against it?
By RAW, the answer to both is "no".


My gut feel is a grab attack (Str. vs Reflex) followed by a heavy thrown attack at the wall (Str vs. AC of 5 to hit the chunk of wall, and 1d10 "falling" damage), which is theoretically two standard actions... but I think once you've grabbed the thing, chucking it away should be a minor.
How exactly do you miss a wall? :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, this has to be standard + minor to be worth using (primarily if there are no forced movement powers in the party); if it were two standard actions it would fall firmly under "never mind, I'll use one of my powers instead".

Urist Ironblood
2009-09-30, 11:42 AM
How exactly do you miss a wall? :smallbiggrin:


They're in the catacombs, where the walls are pocked with niches for bodies; the idea is that if they fail the attack roll, they throw the hand across the room, but it lands somewhere innocuous that breaks its fall and it can attempt to come skittering back into the fight. Hilariously there's also a doorway that leads to a balcony looking over a 40-foot drop. If they throw the hand that direction and miss the wall, they actually do more damage to the hand.

Thanks for the RAW clarification, too. I'm going to probably go with the RAW interpretation of "shooting at an enemy who's riding your friend" unless the players suggest something really tricky like "I want to run the hand through with my spear, but stop before I hurt my buddy."

Kletian999
2009-09-30, 12:11 PM
The 4e attack roll system assumes a lot of Player competance.

I'll start with a seperate example: If a monster is described as having only 1 weakpoint in their armor (represented by high AC) then 4e assumes all attacks are aiming for that point and anything that passes the "Hit" roll landed there- you don't force the player to miss a roll of 19 because they didn't give details of the attack.

Now we go back to these hands. There are many monsters (and Assassin players, or wearers of a certain armor in PHB2) with explicit powers to redirect an attack aimed at them to someone else near. They are balanced for their experience to have this ability, and conversely, monsters without the ability would be more dangerous than their XP value if you gave it to them.
In the case of a monster that lacks the redirection ability like the hands, 4e assumes you're making a shallow slash, stabbing when the hand is on top of a heavy armor plate, or whatever motion is needed to threaten the hands without hitting your friends (perhaps the victim player is "repeatedly brushing them off" as a background flavor and you strike one before it can climb back on).

All that said, monsters aren't written in stone. You can give these monsters redirect powers, you can have your ally grant cover from single target attacks to the hands to represent extra care, or any other mechancial representation of the effect: just make the rules clear either as result of a monster knowledge check or an explicit player warning before confirming an attack action and increase the exp alloted to the fight.

FlyingWhale
2009-09-30, 12:48 PM
Now we go back to these hands. There are many monsters (and Assassin players, or wearers of a certain armor in PHB2) with explicit powers to redirect an attack aimed at them to someone else near. They are balanced for their experience to have this ability, and conversely, monsters without the ability would be more dangerous than their XP value if you gave it to them.
In the case of a monster that lacks the redirection ability like the hands, 4e assumes you're making a shallow slash, stabbing when the hand is on top of a heavy armor plate, or whatever motion is needed to threaten the hands without hitting your friends (perhaps the victim player is "repeatedly brushing them off" as a background flavor and you strike one before it can climb back on).

All that said, monsters aren't written in stone. You can give these monsters redirect powers, you can have your ally grant cover from single target attacks to the hands to represent extra care, or any other mechancial representation of the effect: just make the rules clear either as result of a monster knowledge check or an explicit player warning before confirming an attack action and increase the exp alloted to the fight.

Agreed with all of that for sure! I've always been big on looking at a monster, looking at my party, looking at the monster, looking at my party...Crumbling up the print-out from Monster-Builder and starting over!:smallbiggrin:

I can't help but thinking of imposing something slightly more than a -2... I mean, if they are minions and the party is lower than level 6 I could see that as sufficient... But a 10% more chance to miss when possibly 4 of the buggers are swarming over your ally? I also think about an arrow, bolt, axe, or hammer hurling at your ally cannot be good... I watch trick shooters hit coins in the air while they turn load and shoot and hit it... But with a gun. And after it hits the target it doesn't just magically stop. I mean, an arrow flying at least 200+fps hitting a rotting hand... I somehow disbelieve it is just going to hit the hand and that's the end of the story... Does this make me seem like a cruel DM?
So I was thinking... Maybe, 1 point of damage? I mean, I would also of course throw the -2atk in the equation. But I like detail:smallsmile:. What kind of armor are they wearing? OK, so maybe if they are wearing cloth or basic leather armor(magical or otherwise) that arrow doesn't have much stopping it. I think something like leather armor at the time, plus ~3" of flesh is what you had from a typical arrow hit. So, if they have scale, chain, etc maybe nothing happens but a good thump, but could we reason hide,leather, and cloth would warrant a little puncture?:smallfrown: I mean, after all, the hands are ON the person... Sure the game mechanics don't have all sorts of rules for this(that I have ever seen or read) but that is what the GM/DM is for right?
Another idea! Roll damage (yes yes they are minions) and see how that adds up. It is a minion with 1hp, it is tiny, it is a hand! Let's say the rogue blasts it with a handbow as a basic ranged doing(1d6) 3 damage. OK cool, the hand is dead, and it isn't exactly a crazy damaging hit. Let's say the ranger blasts two of them with his longbow(1d10) using twin strike...7 on one and 3 on the other, both are dead, but one of those hits had to hurt. Not even thinking about modifiers like ability or magic here...

Anyway, I was just wondering about making it (albeit cheese) a little less "Shoot 'em! SHOOT 'EM!" and a little more, "You want to shoot your arrows at me?! After I invited you to my sister's wedding?!"

So I like the idea of grab'n'fling, I also like the idea that they occupy the space AND the player, and most of all... I like the scary thought of, "My gods these things are all over me! Get them off!"

Kudos

Urist Ironblood
2009-10-01, 02:26 PM
It turns out to be a moot point. After all that, the player who was closest when I spawned them was the mage. All four successfully made their leaping attacks and grappled onto him. Sensing great danger, he promptly stepped back from the PC adjacent to him (clearing the area) and cast Scorching Burst on himself and the hands. He was in the center of the blast area, aiming at himself. He declared the order of his to-hit rolls, rolled damage to see if he would accidentally kill himself (he'd be dropping himself to 0hp) and then rolled around the circle to hit.

He got all but one of the hands, and managed to miss himself (or step clear of the flames, or however you want to fluff it).

FlyingWhale
2009-10-01, 04:40 PM
NOOOO!!! Even the best planned things falter. Good thinking on his behalf though!

Yakk
2009-10-01, 04:55 PM
Lession: Minions are minions. Don't invest to much into them!

FlyingWhale
2009-10-01, 05:04 PM
Lesson: Minions are minions. Don't invest too much into them!fix

My players learned after the first session in my first game... Town guards to the capital city are charged with protecting the entire population and ready to face any foe on a moments notice...

Lesson: Don't try to pull sh-- with town guards. Video game guards may die in one hit. My guards have Improved Disarm and are typically at least 5 levels higher than the average commoner... Minions are minions... but never underestimate an opponent!

Also @Yakk~~~ I know they are minions...but I want to see my babies grow, thrive, and make a place for themselves in this beholder-eat-beholder world of ours:smallbiggrin:

BobTheDog
2009-10-01, 05:34 PM
Also @Yakk~~~ I know they are minions...but I want to see my babies grow, thrive, and make a place for themselves in this beholder-eat-beholder world of ours:smallbiggrin:

Heh. My last minions had names, personalities, and a lot of background.

I read that part on "narrative ideas" in the DMG2 and decided to do a cutscene with my players. I gave each of them a Human Guard statblock (standard MM edition), and tossed the BBEG at them. They fought for some rounds and died (creating the names, personalities and background before/during the fight).

Then, back to the main PCs, later on they encountered the BBEG and the now-undead guards (zombie minions). One of them actually chose to let "his" guard live for another round, and went out of his way to attack the BBEG. Fun times! :smallbiggrin:

FlyingWhale
2009-10-01, 05:37 PM
Heh. My last minions had names, personalities, and a lot of background.

I read that part on "narrative ideas" in the DMG2 and decided to do a cutscene with my players. I gave each of them a Human Guard statblock (standard MM edition), and tossed the BBEG at them. They fought for some rounds and died (creating the names, personalities and background before/during the fight).

Then, back to the main PCs, later on they encountered the BBEG and the now-undead guards (zombie minions). One of them actually chose to let "his" guard live for another round, and went out of his way to attack the BBEG. Fun times! :smallbiggrin:

Someone else actually narrates cut scenes for what would otherwise be another hack and laugh encounter???

*tear*:smallfrown:*salute* Bless you, you little undead minions you! Even in death you stand tall and are wiped into oblivion by the feeblest of PCs...

BobTheDog
2009-10-01, 06:18 PM
Someone else actually narrates cut scenes for what would otherwise be another hack and laugh encounter???

*tear*:smallfrown:*salute* Bless you, you little undead minions you! Even in death you stand tall and are wiped into oblivion by the feeblest of PCs...

Actually I had to, or the paranoid player wouldn't stop trying to find out how the BBEG managed to find "dressed-as-guards" zombies.

"Ha! I bet that someone in the Castle helped the BBEG get in and kill these guards!" or something like that.

With a cutscene, they know what happened, so they won't stop their current search with an investigation of suspects... :smalltongue:

FlyingWhale
2009-10-01, 06:37 PM
...
With a cutscene, they know what happened, so they won't stop their current search with an investigation of suspects... :smalltongue:

OH MAN! Tell me about it!!! I think I had, oh I don't know, several hundred times where I put like... Shields on the wall by a door or, or, or a bears head over a mantle piece... LAST TIME I EVER GIVE DETAIL!!! The parties always spend an hour out of game and days in games trying to find the mystery of "the candelabra on the table" or... "The case of the half-eaten stew"... They swear they are the Hardy Boys... ASDFGHJKL!!!!! IT'S A BOWL OF STEW! GAH!

Yakk
2009-10-01, 06:59 PM
Narrative powa:
Have them roll an appropriate skill. If they roll high on the skill they choose, whatever they where interested in is actually important.

If they roll low, whatever they are interested in was utterly unimportant. Dismiss all future inquiries into the item out of hand.

DC: 20+Adventure Level/2.

Effect: Players think that your world is full of interesting detail, and that they are investigative geniuses! Geniuses I say!