How much of a threat is the Linear Guild?

[Turkish Delight]

So far all their plans have failed pretty spectacularly. Do you think they're basically going to forever be the Team Rocket of OotS, technically bad guys but so utterly inept at villainy that they come across as sympathetic instead? Or is there some level of actual threat involved at this stage?

I ask this because it strikes me that the The Order has been stuck on a boat/trapped in a city/serving as food for maggots for many, many months. Team Evil has been sitting around in a city torturing a Paladin for many, many months. The Linear Guild has had a massive head start in finding a boat to the Western continent and then a gate. If they are competent in the slightest, they should at the very least be well on their way to figuring out a plan to crack the defenses of one or the other gate.

If they aren't, they might be half-way across the continent going the wrong way from their chosen gate before realizing they misread the map or some other epic feat of stupid that causes us to chuckle merrily at their inept antics. Oh, Linear Guild!

Frankly, given how badly thinned out their numbers have been...three mid-level NPCs to the OotS six, or three mid-level NPCs to Team Evil's epic sorcerer, high level cleric, mid-level mystic theurge and ten gazillion expendable Hobgoblins...they really come across as the underdog by now. It's hard not to root for an underdog, even if really evil.

[Thanatosia]

The Linear Guild are unwitting Pawns of the IFCC, and have nothing to do with the gates until/unless the IFCC points them in that direction. The LG didn't even have any clue that the Gates existed until Nale posed as Elan in Sapphire City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html), and although Nale had indicated a willingness to use the Gates for his own ends, he lacks any knowledge of where the other gates are or how to use them, and is very unlikely to ever get that knowledge unless its through the intervention of the IFCC.

Even the IFCC's ability to feed information to the LG seems limited by the fact that the IFCC appearantly did not know about the gates until Sabine delivered her report on them. The IFCC have set up V to be their sleeper agent, but I think they are relying on V to get to a gate for them to know where one is. So until V goes to a gate, the IFCC wont' know where to find one, wich means the LG wont know where to go to find one.

[Turkish Delight]

The IFCC have set up V to be their sleeper agent, but I think they are relying on V to get to a gate for them to know where one is. So until V goes to a gate, the IFCC wont' know where to find one, wich means the LG wont know where to go to find one.

Unlikely. As mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), they know there are two other gates available for them to capture and appear confident enough that they can find them on their own that they seemly just leave without seeking further information.

If Nale went off to go capture another gate without having any knowledge whatsoever of where the other gates are or how to find out where they are, then that would drop him squarely into the utterly ineffectual, too-stupid-to-be-a-threat villain category, thus answering the question.

They are puppets of the IFCC, but outside of Sabine they are unaware of it and therefore have any number of chances to play havoc with the IFCC's plans.

[spargel]

You realize both of their plans nearly succeeded (With a bit of luck) spectacularly, right? The first one could have been a total party kill if Haley didn't roll a natural 20.

[Turkish Delight]

You realize both of their plans nearly succeeded (With a bit of luck) spectacularly, right? The first one could have been a total party kill if Haley didn't roll a natural 20.

But they didn't succeed and ended with the Linear Guild captured and imprisoned. Ergo, they failed spectacularly.

[Lamech]

They did fail. But that doesn't mean the first plan was bad. The Order got lucky. It would be the same if the black dragon's finger of death killed V because she rolled a one.

And lets see here... Sabine is immune to Belkar, Elan and apperantly Durkon. That sucks big time. IIRC Thog, could overwhelm Roy, just give him a magic buff or two and some mind control so he fights to the end. Haley is an archer so a couple spells like... windwall or fog cloud, would make Haley rather useless. Luckly V will save the day because she is probably one of the more powerful arcance casters, its not like they can just order up one of the most powerful casters of all time and... crap.

If they get some decent leadership they will do just fine.

[factotum]

The Linear Guild as it currently stands (just Thog, Nale and Sabine) isn't any threat at all. If they've managed to gather a few more people, then yes, they might be able to throw a few spanners in the works. However, ultimately the LG are antagonists and therefore whatever they do can't win in the long run...unless Rich is going for the ultimate Downer Ending!

[Katana_Geldar]

According to the Giant, the Linear Guild are significantly weaker than the Order of the Stick, which is one of the reasons their plans are so elaborate. Also, Nale has rather different goals than the other villains as he just wants personal revenge on Elan.

Chances are, they're on the Western Continent (as Nale knew that was where the order were headed) and may have found the gate already, given they had at least a three month head start. And, if Elan and Nale's father is over there, they may have had some help (or not, depending on what happened in Tyrinaria).

Aside from the levels, one advantage that the Order of the Stick has over the Linear Guild is the fact that Nale, Thog and Sabine tend to get blind sighted. The Order don't have this problem too much, as they don't follow Roy blindly as Sabine and Thog follow Elan and have a great variety of POVs.

And remember, Elan has a connection to Thog, at times, he can get on Thog's good side.

[lord_khaine]

And lets see here... Sabine is immune to Belkar, Elan and apperantly Durkon. That sucks big time. IIRC Thog, could overwhelm Roy, just give him a magic buff or two and some mind control so he fights to the end. Haley is an archer so a couple spells like... windwall or fog cloud, would make Haley rather useless. Luckly V will save the day because she is probably one of the more powerful arcance casters, its not like they can just order up one of the most powerful casters of all time and... crap.


Sabine is at the very best resistant to Belkar and Elan, Durkon is a highlevel Cleric and could crush her in a couple of rounds or so, unless he is prepared to fight evil Outsiders, in that case it will go even faster.

In their last battle Thog actualy found out that Roy was a bit to tough for him, and Roy have access to higher level magic buffs than Thog currently does.

The use of Windwall is severly overestimatet in its ability to shut down a Archer, especaly at close range where all Haley have to do is to walk though it.

No, the Linear guilds biggest advantage is Nale's ability to recruit highlevel npc to his cause, and the same ability to make his crazy plans work more or less as they are suposed to do.

[Kaytara]

It depends on your definition of the word "threat", I think. Just because their plans keep failing does not mean they are not a threat. While ultimately failures, their plans were a bit too close for comfort for the OotS too many times. Elan ended up skewered once and facing execution another time, Haley was a hair's breadth away from being stabbed mid-kiss.

But most importantly, they get in the way. Even if their schemes ultimately fail, they cause chaos and take up time and effort. In a quest as high-priority and time-sensitive as the Gate quest, that could be critical.

[DnDgeek13]

I find that they are good plans, just not good enough. And now they are even worse off. As it points out here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html), they are probably personal rivals and therefor the same level as each of the OoTS. so if all of the OoTS are level 15, it is 6 level 15 characters Vs. 3 level 15 rivals.

[rangermania]

Whatever you say about "Ultimate Failures" they serve to their purposes They are the only source of chaos for a long time...

[DukeGod]

if they find people who are not crazy to join their side maybe...
the kidnap Julia plan could also have killed them if Thor known the Control Weather(or listened to his Deva)

[The_Void]

On their own, not a threat. However, I suspect Nale may have an entire army under his command, possibly after deposing his father. Also, they have the support of the IFCC.

[spargel]

But they didn't succeed and ended with the Linear Guild captured and imprisoned. Ergo, they failed spectacularly.

Looking at only the results is not a good way to judge someone's actions.

[Conuly]

Well, are we talking about the Linear Guild if they're acting as independently as they (even, probably, Sabine) think? Or are we talking about them as the unwitting pawns of the IFCC?

Acting on their own free will... even though their previous fights were close, I think ultimately they're not that big a threat. Nale's plans just *aren't* clever enough to make up for the disparity in numbers. (I don't know enough about D&D to intelligently geek out over their supposed stats, and wouldn't want to do that even if I did.)

Acting as the tools of the IFCC? Well, now, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Of course, the IFCC doesn't want the Order dead right now, so... still not an active threat.

[krossbow]

you have to admit, the previous battle was basically half the order vs. Leeky.
The LG were a threat in that battle due to getting a highly optimized overpowered class to fight for them, which nearly resulted in the stomping of half the order; if it wasn't for blatant cheating by thor, it would have gone significantly worse.


The linear guild's strength lies in using plans to ensnare the order and exploit their (many) weaknesses. As it stands, Thog is a meatshield with a crippling weakness to will saves, and Nale is a cluster*%&^ of a multi-class, being basically a melee individual with ridiculously weak magic. Sabine is the only halfway effective member.
In order to proceed as a threat, they're going to need to recruit some big guns, or strike while something else has the order's attention.




But thats why i like nale; he tries to win through intelligence and analysis, not through Xykons method of godmoding through everything because he can.

[Conuly]

But thats why i like nale; he tries to win through intelligence and analysis, not through Xykons method of godmoding through everything because he can.

Hey, don't knock it if it works.

[Sewblon]

They are only a threat if someone smarter manipulates them. So right now they are a threat, but only because of the IFCC.

[Thanatosia]

Chances are, they're on the Western Continent (as Nale knew that was where the order were headed) and may have found the gate already, given they had at least a three month head start.
I think you underestimate just how secret the gates are. They know there are 2 other gates, but that is all they know about them. Given that even the gods themselves have to be read-in to the gates existance, it strikes me as very unlikely that Nale will find any clues as to the location of the two. Xykon spent ~25 years trying to find the location of the other gates after blowing it at Lirian's, and Lich-Xykon is probably a fair bit better at that kind of research then Nale would be.

[EleventhHour]

Chances are, they're on the Western Continent (as Nale knew that was where the order were headed) and may have found the gate already, given they had at least a three month head start. And, if Elan and Nale's father is over there, they may have had some help (or not, depending on what happened in Tyrinaria).


!


Haley should've checked the maps for a Linearia. Nale took over his own country!

:smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[Crafty Cultist]

The linear guild has had ample time to recruit new members and level up and are linked to the IFCC. they will probably play a major part in the struggle for the gates.

IF Nale is smart he will lay low and strike when the Order of the stick and team evil are worn out from fighting each other. however nale's sibling rivalry may get the better of him

[krossbow]

here's the problem; the linear guild's core isn't terribly powerful. Because of this, it begs the question of how they can recruit anyone able to stand toe to toe with the order (why leeky was taking orders from them is another question due to this) who wouldn't immidiately question why they were taking orders from nale. In a dungeons and dragons setting, political power and hiarchy tends to stem from personal strength; authority equals asskicking (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorityEqualsAsskicking) basically. Because of this, someone like nale isn't the most intimidating leader.

Because of this, anyone the linear guild could easily recruit would probably be a mook, like pompei. Due to this, its still hard to see how they could have rebuilt up effectively, unless they plan on suckerpunching the order (which admittedly would be fairly easy).

[waterpenguin43]

They did fail. But that doesn't mean the first plan was bad. The Order got lucky.

And it took an error on Thors part to save them next time from one single party member.

[Gametime]

here's the problem; the linear guild's core isn't terribly powerful. Because of this, it begs the question of how they can recruit anyone able to stand toe to toe with the order (why leeky was taking orders from them is another question due to this) who wouldn't immidiately question why they were taking orders from nale. In a dungeons and dragons setting, political power and hiarchy tends to stem from personal strength; authority equals asskicking (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorityEqualsAsskicking) basically. Because of this, someone like nale isn't the most intimidating leader.

Because of this, anyone the linear guild could easily recruit would probably be a mook, like pompei. Due to this, its still hard to see how they could have rebuilt up effectively, unless they plan on suckerpunching the order (which admittedly would be fairly easy).

"Begs the question" actually means to skip over or fail to acknowledge a central issue. The use you have employed would be more properly conveyed by "raises the question".

Back on topic, I think you are giving NPCs too much credit when it comes to figuring out how powerful someone is. Nale is pretty useless in combat, but he's got access to illusions and enchantments and is in command of a reasonably strong evil outsider. With a high Bluff check, he could probably convince potential allies that he's much stronger than he actually is.

The key thing is offering the new members something they want in return for help; Pompei wanted respect for his magical abilities, Leeky wanted revenge on city-dwellers, etc. While Nale can't necessarily coerce people into taking orders from him, he CAN negotiate his way to mutually beneficial alliances.

Now, whether he can find anyone with something to gain by going after highly obscure magical gates is another issue.

[Lamech]

Oh wait. Sabine has plane shift doesn't she? Thats a bastard of a spell to deal with. If she hits with a touch, and is a jerk it becomes a will save SoD require a true ressurection. (Because very few people survive a trip to the sun.) That can just kill... Elan, Belkar and maybe Roy. And in a crowd they wouldn't even know who cast it.

She is only suposed to use it in case of emergencies, but...
The biggest danger is the IFCC, if they send a hezrou (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm)* (with a CL booster). It would be really bad if they can brew up another soul splice. For supreme stuppidity they can drop a balor in the mix.

Thog is dangerous to say maybe one of the martial charcter signly, but not a group. Sabine could get a kill in a crowd, and could certainly drop quite a few by herself, in one-on-ones. Nale could die horribly, or recruit powerful evil NPC's. The IFCC, might flatten the party.


In their last battle Thog actualy found out that Roy was a bit to tough for him, and Roy have access to higher level magic buffs than Thog currently does.Haley was helping him, and he may have been told to surrender at some point. I still say Thog is probably better than Roy, (especially if he levels up with Roy, since he would now have a level on Roy.), but he won't last against Elan (Elan will get him to surrender or something, Durkon, or V. Maybe even lose to Belkar or Haley. No way will he stop any two.

[Cleverdan22]

They left for Girard's Gate a good while ago, I think they may already be there, trying to figure out how the hell to get past the illusions.