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View Full Version : [3.5] Making Higher-Tier Characters Via Gestalt.



Zovc
2009-09-28, 08:58 AM
Gestalt significantly increases a character's potential, but even Unearthed Arcana makes sure to point out that you're not doubly powerful. So, let's try to make stronger characters by mixing and matching!

Currently, I'm interested in turning Tier 5 Characters into Tier 3 Characters.

So, we're starting with a Tier 5 Base class; we want to gestalt a Tier 4, 5, or 6 class to try to end up with a Tier 3 character.

Let's start with the monk. What puts the monk in Tier 5? What does he need to be higher tier?

Mongoose87
2009-09-28, 08:59 AM
Higher BaB, and some way to avoid MAD.

Telonius
2009-09-28, 09:22 AM
Some possibilities for gestalting a Monk:

Scout (assuming you can get a Sparring Dummy of the Master)
Swashbuckler (coupled with the Kung Fu Genius feat)

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-09-28, 09:23 AM
Full Base Attack Bonus, Wisdom to attack and damage in place of Strength, and an incentive to use that speed for a good reason.

I'd probably Gestalt it with a modified Scout, granting the Monk a good BaB, skirmish, a bonus Fighter feat at 4th level and every subsequent 4 levels, Blindsense (later Blindsight), permanent (or X rounds/day) Freedom of Movement, and throw in Wis to attack (and maybe damage) somewhere early on.

Riffington
2009-09-28, 11:56 AM
Sneak Attack Fighter will make you a very solid Tier 3: you win the damage game, have good saves, and can tank. Outside of combat you may be sad.

Zovc
2009-09-28, 12:31 PM
Swashbuckler (coupled with the Kung Fu Genius feat)

This is an interesting proposition. You get Full BAB, d10 HD, keep your good saves (and boost your reflex with Grace). Does Insightful Strike (/Weapon Finesse) work on unarmed attacks? If so, you can be a pretty good simply focusing on Dexterity (To-Hit and AC) and Intelligence (Damage and AC, also skills). I would also say that, while Swashbuckler suits its own flavor, but doesn't "disrupt" the Monk's flavor if you gestalt them together.

Does anyone think the Monk//Swashbucker wouldn't suit tier 3?


Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Does combat quite well(?), Has skills to be useful outside of combat. The monk has obscure abilities that can answer some encounters occasionally (Immunity to Poisons/Diseases, Dimension Door, Etherealness).

SinsI
2009-09-28, 12:48 PM
Gestalt significantly increases a character's potential, but even Unearthed Arcana makes sure to point out that you're not doubly powerful.
Of course you're not "doubly" powerful, as that is only +1 level.
Gestalt characters are almost as powerful as characters twice their level!
The point is, they have far less weaknesses than ordinary characters. If you Gestalt a class that is immune to everything but fire and a class that grants you fire immunity - you're getting a completely invulnerable PC.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-09-28, 12:54 PM
Gestalt characters are almost as powerful as characters twice their level!

Entirely untrue. A Fighter 20/Barbarian 20 would, honestly, probably still be about on par with a Warblade 20. A Wizard 20/Cleric 20 is NOT the equivalent of a 40th level character, who would simply curbstomp the poor Gestalt character. Most Gestalt combos net between a +2 and a +5 level equilvalent, depending on the strength of the Gestalt (Fighter/Swashbuckler is +2ish, while Wizard/Factotum is closer to +5). It's most definitely not a x2 level deal.


The point is, they have far less weaknesses than ordinary characters. If you Gestalt a class that is immune to everything but fire and a class that grants you fire immunity - you're getting a completely invulnerable PC.

This would be true...but name a single class that gets immunity to anything but fire. They have less weaknesses and more options, but don't become invincible. I would be careful of allowing single-ability dependent Gestalts, caster/strong non-caster gestalts, and the like in games with lesser powered characters though, as otherwise the power levels are quite far apart.

Zovc
2009-09-28, 12:58 PM
Of course you're not "doubly" powerful, as that is only +1 level.

Are you trying to argue something? I don't feel like there is anything contested here. I know people who DID think gestalt means "Character*2," I tried to explain that wasn't the case.

Allow me to clarify that I do not think that gestalt makes a character twice as powerful. I'm also not asking to make an invulnerable character--I'm trying to make a reasonably powerful one.

What I want to do here is make gestalt characters that allow a player to play a monk, for example, in a party of players who know what they're doing. In other words, you might have this Monk//Swashbuckler alongside a Factotum, Beguiler, and a Duskblade.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-28, 01:07 PM
A doubling in power isn't that much for a character such as a spellcaster. Exponential increase means every two levels doubles power. Gestalt is (if I'm getting his/her point correctly) more than double power, although less than the power of a character whose level is twice yours.

Riffington
2009-09-28, 01:22 PM
A doubling in power isn't that much for a character such as a spellcaster. Exponential increase means every two levels doubles power. Gestalt is (if I'm getting his/her point correctly) more than double power, although less than the power of a character whose level is twice yours.

I think you are explaining him well, but do you/he really believe a 12th level character is more than a match for 2 10th level characters of the same class?

Telonius
2009-09-28, 01:28 PM
This is an interesting proposition. You get Full BAB, d10 HD, keep your good saves (and boost your reflex with Grace). Does Insightful Strike (/Weapon Finesse) work on unarmed attacks?

Yes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFinesse).


Weapon Finesse [General]
...
Natural weapons are always considered light weapons.

Also (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#lightOneHandedandTwoHandedMeleeWeapons ):

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

And (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike):

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike.

Unarmed strikes are weapons, and they're subject to Weapon Finesse, so I see no reason that Insightful Strike wouldn't apply.

Godskook
2009-09-28, 01:30 PM
Entirely untrue. A Fighter 20/Barbarian 20 would, honestly, probably still be about on par with a Warblade 20. A Wizard 20/Cleric 20 is NOT the equivalent of a 40th level character, who would simply curbstomp the poor Gestalt character. Most Gestalt combos net between a +2 and a +5 level equilvalent, depending on the strength of the Gestalt (Fighter/Swashbuckler is +2ish, while Wizard/Factotum is closer to +5). It's most definitely not a x2 level deal.

Wait, are you meaning '//' or '/'? Makes a big difference in how I read that.

Nohwl
2009-09-28, 01:31 PM
I think you are explaining him well, but do you/he really believe a 12th level character is more than a match for 2 10th level characters of the same class?

if the character got a big enough increase in power from those 2 levels and that 12th level feat, yeah. not all characters, but for some.

Aneantir
2009-09-28, 02:07 PM
Most Gestalt combos net between a +2 and a +5 level equilvalent, depending on the strength of the Gestalt (Fighter/Swashbuckler is +2ish, while Wizard/Factotum is closer to +5).

For most gestalt games, this is correct. But there is more potential to be reached if you really look into it. As an example, heres a character I'm running in a game on this board. I'd say he's worth a bit more than a +5 level equivilant:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153819
(Note, the DM allowed the bypassing of such prerequisites of prestige classes like which gods we choose to worship due to some of the campaign fluff.)

Deepblue706
2009-09-28, 02:11 PM
Although I'm not sure how the end-result would play out, I'm tempted to say Fighter would be good.

Regular Fighter/Monk: The Monk obtains the Full BAB he wants (a weakness of the Monk), but still retains good saves (a weakness of the Fighter), has great movement (a weakness of the fighter) has a decent skill-set (a weakness of the Fighter). The bonus feats granted by Fighter grant versatility, which can grant huge offensive power (a weakness of the Monk). Regular Fighter gives useless Armor and Shield Proficiencies, however. But then, every class under tier 2 tends to have something that isn't universally applicable.

Now, if you go into Charging, you can get moving 180ft in a turn.

What's fun is that you can then take a couple levels in the Drunken Master PrC (CWar) so you never have to charge in a straight line, and can make a DC 15 tumble check to avoid provoking any AoOs while charging through threatened squares. Ranks in Tumble can get you the Combat Acrobat feat (PHB2) which lets you just ignore the impeding effects of difficult terrain (for a few squares a turn), although you could probably Leap-Attack over a decent amount, anyway.

Of course, PrCs are a bit separate from the base tier system (since it's an exception), but I just really wanted to talk about 180ft Shock-Trooper/Leap Attack charges in any direction(s) I please.

You could also be a Dungeon-Crashing Zhentarim Fighter with the "Overwhelming Attack" Monk Fighting Style variant. Get bonuses to Intimidate so you can Demoralize everyone to get bonuses to Bull Rush so you can then Smash them so that they're Very Dead.

Excuse me, I have to write this down. This will make an excellent enemy for my group.

Indon
2009-09-28, 02:41 PM
The Monk is a good example of a solid Gestalt synergy class - you give the Monk to a class that focuses on active abilities (such as, say, a Rogue), and it complements that class and raises it into a higher tier. Other examples of such classes would be Incarnum classes (Incarnate, Totemist, Soulborn), or the Marshal.

So with classes like that, really, the answer as to who to combine it with varies pretty heavily - the Monk works well in Gestalt with a wide array of other classes to increase effective tier level. To get a Tier 3, adding any of the classes I named to many Tier 4's would be enough.

I daresay that between the Monk, Incarnate, Totemist, Soulborn, and Marshal, one of them could be gestalted with almost any Tier 4/5 class (and possibly one or two Tier 6 classes) to make a Tier 3 class.

The Marshal would even be helpful in regards to making Truenaming work.

Riffington
2009-09-28, 04:33 PM
For most gestalt games, this is correct. But there is more potential to be reached if you really look into it. As an example, heres a character I'm running in a game on this board. I'd say he's worth a bit more than a +5 level equivilant:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153819
(Note, the DM allowed the bypassing of such prerequisites of prestige classes like which gods we choose to worship due to some of the campaign fluff.)

You also have prestige classes that are combo classes (RKV and Ordained Champion, which are suggested to be forbidden in gestalt).

/yes, by RAW it's just a suggestion, not a rule.
//factotum is broken in gestalt, don't use it for a baseline.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-09-28, 04:42 PM
You also have prestige classes that are combo classes (RKV and Ordained Champion, which are suggested to be forbidden in gestalt).

/yes, by RAW it's just a suggestion, not a rule.

This. Allowing dual-progression classes in Gestalt is opening a can of tremendously overpowered worms, especially if one character in the party isn't doing such a thing. If you showed up to a Gestalt game of mine with such a thing, it would be banned instantly. But that's just my DMing style and idea of balance, and your mileage may vary.

And additionally, I can still stop such a character flat with a 21st level character for the simple reason that your action economy isn't good. I'd get one standard action or full-round action per round, which could be 9th level or could even be Epic. You'd get the same amount of time to use actions in, but your actions are weaker. More versatility, but not as much additional power as you'd think.

Aneantir
2009-09-28, 07:56 PM
This. Allowing dual-progression classes in Gestalt is opening a can of tremendously overpowered worms, especially if one character in the party isn't doing such a thing. If you showed up to a Gestalt game of mine with such a thing, it would be banned instantly. But that's just my DMing style and idea of balance, and your mileage may vary.

And additionally, I can still stop such a character flat with a 21st level character for the simple reason that your action economy isn't good. I'd get one standard action or full-round action per round, which could be 9th level or could even be Epic. You'd get the same amount of time to use actions in, but your actions are weaker. More versatility, but not as much additional power as you'd think.

Ordained Champion is, more or less, just icing. RKV is where most of the strength comes from, as I have a lot of swift action abilities and make good use of them, buffing, moving, and so on. Also, dual progression classes are very opinion based. 3/5 and 7/10 progression, might not necessarily be considered dual progression to some, so the rule is fuzzy at best and open to interpretation.

Barring epic casting which would drop me like it would drop anything else, I fair decently against epic level challenges.

Siosilvar
2009-09-28, 08:26 PM
I think you are explaining him well, but do you/he really believe a 12th level character is more than a match for 2 10th level characters of the same class?

No. It should be a toss-up with a 12th level character and 2 10th level characters.

~14th would be "more than a match", and 16th+ is definitely out of their league.