Was saving Belkar from Miko the right thing to do?

[Sewblon]

I don't just mean if it was the moral thing to do, I also mean was it the smart thing to do. Like Roy said Belkar is one of his people, even though he is evil, so it was the moral thing to do. Like the Oracle said if the Order hadn't have defended Belkar Miko wouldn't have immediatly concluded that they wear evil, but she decided that they wear working for Xykon once she learned that he still existed which means she still would have concluded that Lord Shojo was evil when she learned that he was working with them and still would have killed him. I think it was the right thing to do, what does everyone else think?

[Pigkappa]

I think that was the right thing to do too. In my opinion, there is still (a little) hope for Belkar to become Neutral (or, at least, to realize that killing random people is wrong), and even now I don't think he would part with Xykon against his team. Miko was a crazy chick who would have killed everyone who seemed to be Evil, and she wasn't really that good at all.

Belkar sometimes kills random people, but he usually doesn't screw up all the team's strategy (except for the time he killed the Oracle, of course), and can be a decent ally in struggles (such as the battle of Azure City).

[hamishspence]

Betrayal is considered an evil act by BoVD rules, so if failure to do so can be called betrayal, then there is a case for Roy's act being "avoidance of doing evil when you are offered the opportunity to do it".

Which is a form of moral behaviour.

If Roy stands to gain by "betraying Belkar" - which one could make the case that he does- since keeping Belkar in line takes a lot of effort that could be spent elsewhere, then it would be "Betraying an ally for personal gain"

Which is a fairly serious Corrupt Act by Fiendish Codex 2 rules.

That said, whether it was the Smart thing to do is another question, harder to define. In theory Roy could seek out a more useful party member than Belkar. In practice this may be easier said than done.

A counterclaim would be that without Belkar, the order might not be any worse of, and some people (like Solt Lykyurg) would still be alive.

[Steven the Lich]

Moral-wise, it would've been a similar situation to the Elan-bandit incident.
Belkar is one of Roy's people, and it would've been wrong to just leave one of his people to die (this isn't the first time he realized this, IE the Elan-bandit incident).

Smart wise, yes, it was smart.
Why? Because Belkar is the team tracker, and is one of their most capable fighters, believe it or not. After all...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html
... Sexy god of war.

[hamishspence]

there are people who claim that the deva was wrong to deem Roy's short-lived refusal to rescue Elan an evil act, on various grounds.

For example, that Roy doesn't really owe any duty to him- since the contracts were invalid.

Or that Elan was in no danger (even though Roy had no way of knowing that)

Or other lines of reasoning.

The thread on that particular comic is here for the details of those arguments:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57991&page=3

There are D&D rulebooks that can be taken as suggesting otherwise, however, which I have mentioned.

[Steven the Lich]

Belkar sometimes kills random people, but he usually doesn't screw up all the team's strategy (except for the time he killed the Oracle, of course), and can be a decent ally in struggles (such as the battle of Azure City). For the sake of comedy, Belkar does actually screw over his team's strategy...
For instance...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html

[Forbiddenwar]

I know it's hindsight, but if Belkar was killed by Miko, and assuming events still played out as they had, Hinjo would have been killed as well. And Haley would have never been able to retrieve Roy's body, or survived her encounter with Tsuk. There are a lot more, but I do think that Belkar has done more good than harm since his encounter with Miko.

[Kish]

There are a lot more, but I do think that Belkar has done more good than harm since his encounter with Miko.
Solt Lorkyurg might disagree.

And...amazingly, Belkar's fake character growth may have derailed him doing anything else really despicable for the remainder of his short life. Not, ah, that anything that happened after the Order protected Belkar from Miko can really play into the morality or wisdom of that action, with the knowledge the Order possessed at that time. They're not Oracles.

[FujinAkari]

I know it's hindsight, but if Belkar was killed by Miko, and assuming events still played out as they had, Hinjo would have been killed as well. And Haley would have never been able to retrieve Roy's body, or survived her encounter with Tsuk. There are a lot more, but I do think that Belkar has done more good than harm since his encounter with Miko.

Well, technically, if Belkar is dead Haley would have no need to retrieve Roy's body since Roy wouldn't have jumped up there in the first place :P

((Theoretically, if Miko had killed Belkar, Shojo might still be alive. I don't doubt Shojo's stopping Miko's attack fueled a lot of her certainty of his trecherousness.))

[hamishspence]

That would depend on if the Order get Belkar's items after Miko "executes" him, or if Azure City confiscates the lot to help pay for the soldier's resurrection.

If it had turned out Belkar was right after all about Miko falling for killing him, quite a lot might have changed. Someone else might have carried the message, and met Xykon. Shojo might not have been overheard, or at least, might have talked Hinjo into believing that his actions were excusable. And so on.

[veti]

In terms of "smart" - it was the only thing to do. Miko was every bit as unpopular with the OOTS as she was on this board. If Roy, or even Vaarsuvius for that matter, failed to go to the aid of a party member when she of all people was attacking them, none of their teammates would ever trust them again.

In terms of "moral" - I'm not touching that one now, there are just too many different ideas of how "morality" is supposed to work around here...

[FujinAkari]

In terms of "smart" - it was the only thing to do. Miko was every bit as unpopular with the OOTS as she was on this board.

An odd statement, considering that Miko was nearly as popular as the Order at this point in the comic's history. It wasn't until she revealed herself as a delusional wrecking ball that liked to play "slice the sovereign" that popular opinion really shifted against her...

[Jagos]

Having read the strip a LOT later than others (as well as all in one session) my opinion of Miko was really cemented before the fight with Belkar. From what I'd seen, he antagonized her and probably should have been killed...

But I can't help feeling a sense of triumph when V stopped her because of the murderous intent in her eyes. It was double edge at this point. I really wanted to see Miko be a better person than what she was becoming. Instead she chooses to be belligerent and fight everyone who supposedly stood in her way.

*sigh*

[David Argall]

Well, we start with rejecting Roy's reasoning. Nobody has a duty to defend others from their proper punishment. Belkar deserves or does not deserve saving whether he is a stranger or best friend.

Now we do have some strong grounds for not killing Belkar. If you can avoid killing somebody, you should, and Belkar is right in the middle of a center of lawful good that can judge his case reasonably well. [Chaotics might well ask why bother with the delay in the decision, but as noted, any delay is often good of itself.]

But we are talking Belkar, in the hunt for the most evil character in the strip, and actively killing as many as he can. Any just trial of all of his sins had to decide he should be diced immediately.
Now we do have Roy, who is willing to act as a conscience/jailer for Belkar, and, according to the Deva, with a fair amount of success. Evil that does not present a great danger should be tolerated.

We can not judge Belkar's killing by the events in the strip. There are entirely too many if factors, and many of them entirely unknown to the actors. We must judge by what we can predict, and that says Belkar was highly useful, and highly costly.

Overall, I am rather marginal.

[Mugen Nightgale]

Yes. Belkar is a lil evil bastard but he is useful. And till now has been loyal to the party.

[73 Bits of Lint]

Well, technically, if Belkar is dead Haley would have no need to retrieve Roy's body since Roy wouldn't have jumped up there in the first place :P
The Order would be very poor (in every sense of the word) adventurers if they let a corpse go unlooted in their presence.

[FujinAkari]

The Order would be very poor (in every sense of the word) adventurers if they let a corpse go unlooted in their presence.

Ah, but would they have gotten the ring considering where he kept it hidden? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0261.html)

[Jagos]

And Roy used it later?

... I'm gonna be sick...

[dps]

there are people who claim that the deva was wrong to deem Roy's short-lived refusal to rescue Elan an evil act, on various grounds.

For example, that Roy doesn't really owe any duty to him- since the contracts were invalid.

Or that Elan was in no danger (even though Roy had no way of knowing that)

Or other lines of reasoning.

The thread on that particular comic is here for the details of those arguments:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57991&page=3

There are D&D rulebooks that can be taken as suggesting otherwise, however, which I have mentioned.

The deva spoke of Roy "abandoning a friend to an uncertain fate". She didn't say anything about Roy being Elan's commanding officer in this context.

[Larkspur]

Well, we start with rejecting Roy's reasoning. Nobody has a duty to defend others from their proper punishment. Belkar deserves or does not deserve saving whether he is a stranger or best friend.

This. The problem was the lack of due process, not letting Belkar get executed.

That said, it's not V's job to anticipate Miko's insane leaps of logic and try to compensate for them.

Although if they'd let Miko kill Belkar, Xykon would probably be dead right now. With no Ring of Jumping, there'd be no Roy-Xykon duel. With no Roy-Xykon duel, Xykon would have gotten to the throne room much earlier, which means that Redcloak wouldn't have reached him in time to tell him how to fight the paladin ghosts. Soon would have killed him, and with no Tsukiko/Chlorine elemental duel to accidentally destroy the prison, Miko would have remained trapped and been unable to destroy the gate.

Azure City might still have fallen to the hobgoblins, but with no arcane caster (because there's no way Redcloak would hire Tsukiko), the Plan would be dead in the water.

So losing Belkar would have been a net gain for our heroes. Not that they could have known that at the time.

[Sewblon]

This. The problem was the lack of due process, not letting Belkar get executed.

That said, it's not V's job to anticipate Miko's insane leaps of logic and try to compensate for them.

Although if they'd let Miko kill Belkar, Xykon would probably be dead right now. With no Ring of Jumping, there'd be no Roy-Xykon duel. With no Roy-Xykon duel, Xykon would have gotten to the throne room much earlier, which means that Redcloak wouldn't have reached him in time to tell him how to fight the paladin ghosts. Soon would have killed him, and with no Tsukiko/Chlorine elemental duel to accidentally destroy the prison, Miko would have remained trapped and been unable to destroy the gate.

Azure City might still have fallen to the hobgoblins, but with no arcane caster (because there's no way Redcloak would hire Tsukiko), the Plan would be dead in the water.

So losing Belkar would have been a net gain for our heroes. Not that they could have known that at the time.

But if Redcloak hadn't been present when Xykon fought the paladin ghosts, Xykon's phylactery would have remained intact and Redcloak would have waited for his body to regenerate then finished the plan. Also, The Oracle confirmed that without the ring of +20 jumping, Roy would have fought Xykon on the ground, and still lost. So by saving Belkar, the order indirectly saved the world, for now.

[MReav]

But if Redcloak hadn't been present when Xykon fought the paladin ghosts, Xykon's phylactery would remain intact and Redcloak could just wait for his body to regenerate then finish the plan. Also, The Oracle confirmed that without the ring of +20 jumping, Roy would have fought Xykon on the ground, and still lost.

No, he said that if Roy would have found a way to duel Xykon on the ground, Xykon would still have spanked him. However, without the ring, Roy wouldn't have been able to engage Xykon at all at that battle.

[multilis]

But if Redcloak hadn't been present when Xykon fought the paladin ghosts, Xykon's phylactery would remain intact and Redcloak could just wait for his body to regenerate then finish the plan. Also, The Oracle confirmed that without the ring of +20 jumping, Roy would have fought Xykon on the ground, and still lost.
If Roy hadn't favoured chaotic evil Belkar over Miko so much, Miko probably wouldn't have jumped to such drastic conclusions and gotten in jail then smashed the gate, as result Soon would have finished off Xykon.

[Sewblon]

If Roy hadn't favoured chaotic evil Belkar over Miko so much, Miko probably wouldn't have jumped to such drastic conclusions and gotten in jail then smashed the gate, as result Soon would have finished off Xykon.

She probably would have reached the same conclusion once she met Xykon.




But we are talking Belkar, in the hunt for the most evil character in the strip, and actively killing as many as he can.

Do you mean that Belkar is the most evil main character, or the most evil character including all the antagonists?

[Nimrod's Son]

And Roy used it later?

... I'm gonna be sick...
Say, would you like a chocolate-covered pretzel?

[multilis]

She probably would have reached the same conclusion once she met Xykon.
I think Miko was Miko partially from how she was treated (no friends), and from her world view of being allied with an evil person.

It was natural for her world view to assume that an ally of one evil (Belkar) may also be ally of another (Xykon).

In her "black and white" view of everything, if Roy had seemed more white/LG like Durkon he would have been given more trust and chance to explain self.

[Jagos]

I think Miko was Miko partially from how she was treated (no friends), and from her world view of being allied with an evil person.

It was natural for her world view to assume that an ally of one evil (Belkar) may also be ally of another (Xykon).

In her "black and white" view of everything, if Roy had seemed more white/LG like Durkon he would have been given more trust and chance to explain self.

Doubtful.

It still isn't Roy's fault that Miko has no friends. Roy allowed her to step over him for some time. Problem with enforcement types is the fact that they always have to have things their way or the highway. And the highway involves a LOT of kicking @$% for their way. :)

[Sewblon]

I think Miko was Miko partially from how she was treated (no friends), and from her world view of being allied with an evil person.

It was natural for her world view to assume that an ally of one evil (Belkar) may also be ally of another (Xykon).

In her "black and white" view of everything, if Roy had seemed more white/LG like Durkon he would have been given more trust and chance to explain self.

You are a assuming a level of logic and patience from Miko that she never displayed, maybe she would have displayed it if she had survived but we will never know.


In a bonus strip in WaXP, Miko kinda demonstrates just why she doesn't have many friends. :smallwink:

Friendship is a two way street, you know. :smallsmile:

She did cause two other women to make out with each other, which could have earned her certain friends. But not the kind of friends she would have wanted.

[Porthos]

In a bonus strip in WaXP, Miko kinda demonstrates just why she doesn't have many friends. :smallwink:

Friendship is a two way street, you know. :smallsmile:

[factotum]

there are people who claim that the deva was wrong to deem Roy's short-lived refusal to rescue Elan an evil act, on various grounds.


It's a good thing she didn't deem it an evil act, then, isn't it? She deemed it a CHAOTIC act, hence saying her superiors wouldn't blink if she kicked Roy over to the Neutral Good afterlife.

[Porthos]

It's a good thing she didn't deem it an evil act, then, isn't it? She deemed it a CHAOTIC act, hence saying her superiors wouldn't blink if she kicked Roy over to the Neutral Good afterlife.

She threatened to send Roy over to the True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html) afterlife over the Elan incident, actually.

You're probably thinking of the other bit where the Deva questions some of Roy's other actions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) and then says that her superiors wouldn't blink if he got sent straight to the NG afterlife.

[Jackson]

Letting somebody kill your teammate is never the right thing to do.

[LuisDantas]

I think Miko was Miko partially from how she was treated (no friends), and from her world view of being allied with an evil person.

True. Hinjo is my favorite Azure City Paladin, but it was shocking to see him show so much callousness to Miko in #265 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html). I wonder if I would have felt differently about him if I had read that strip at the time it was published.


It was natural for her world view to assume that an ally of one evil (Belkar) may also be ally of another (Xykon).

Maybe so. Evil, by its own basic nature, is not very good at allying with itself, however - and an average Paladin would probably realize that.


In her "black and white" view of everything, if Roy had seemed more white/LG like Durkon he would have been given more trust and chance to explain self.

That is probably true, but not too meaningful when push comes to shove. In the end it is Miko's fault that she is so bad at listening to others.

--------------

As for the OP: I don't know if we are talking about #408-409 or some other incident, but sure, saving Belkar from Miko WAS the right thing to do. For all I can't stand dagger-happy Belkar, Miko did not even know of any good reason to kill him (the Ring of Jumping incident came later, and it is arguable if it justified on-the-spot killing anyway).

What bugs me is how protective of Belkar Haley was during the Greysky City plot, even after she learned that the GMoJ was activated and, later, that Belkar killed the Oracle. If you ask me, by this point Haley is a greater question mark in the morality department that Vaarsuvius or even Belkar himself.

[Raging Gene Ray]

The first time I read the strip where V saves Belkar, I forgot they were actually there when Miko found the dead guard. After rereading it and seeing they were, I'm really surprised how Roy reacted.

I could understand if he was doing that because he assumed Miko was beating Belkar for the sake of being a bad cop, but after seeing that carnage he owed Miko a little more explanation than "he's one of our people." That made it look like he had no problem with Belkar killing whoever he wants. Something along the lines of "he's helpless. Let him have a fair trial,: or "he's actually a good tool if you point him at the bad guys." Not "he's a member of the Order of the Stick, and you will never be."

[Asta Kask]

Maybe so. Evil, by its own basic nature, is not very good at allying with itself, however - and an average Paladin would probably realize that.

But then, Miko wasn't your average Paladin, was she?

[Larkspur]

Belkar totally was about to go over to Xykon, except that it would have cost him the opportunity to share Mr. Scruffy with Tsukiko's face. It's not like it's some kind of crazy, impossible idea that they might be allies.

It happened to be wrong, but it wasn't totally stupid. It was the "Shojo is sneaky, therefore he must be an ally of an apocalypse-bringing undead horror" assumption that took her off the deep end, not her suspicions of Belkar.

[73 Bits of Lint]

Ah, but would they have gotten the ring considering where he kept it hidden? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0261.html)
You've got to be thorough about these things if you expect to make it to the big leagues. When greed meets dignity, the former often makes the latter it's plaything.


And Roy used it later?

... I'm gonna be sick...
I'll tell you what my father used to tell me, "You can always wash your hands later."

[Zolkabro]

In my opinion, there is still (a little) hope for Belkar to become Neutral (or, at least, to realize that killing random people is wrong).

You're kidding.

[hamishspence]

The first time I read the strip where V saves Belkar, I forgot they were actually there when Miko found the dead guard. After rereading it and seeing they were, I'm really surprised how Roy reacted.

I could understand if he was doing that because he assumed Miko was beating Belkar for the sake of being a bad cop, but after seeing that carnage he owed Miko a little more explanation than "he's one of our people." That made it look like he had no problem with Belkar killing whoever he wants. Something along the lines of "he's helpless. Let him have a fair trial,: or "he's actually a good tool if you point him at the bad guys." Not "he's a member of the Order of the Stick, and you will never be."

I'd have gone with:

"he was a kidnapped person (since we were not in the jurisdiction of Azure City) under the impression that he would be convicted and executed for a capital crime that he didn't personally commit.

An impression you gave him by using the phrases "crimes for which the only sentence is death" and "We have diviners who do not make mistakes about such things"

That makes him to be acting in genuine fear for his life- and thus, executing him for his actions taken under this fear of wrongful execution by kidnappers, to be unjust."

Probably not Roy's line of thinking, but it is true that a case can be made for this.

[Kish]

As for the OP: I don't know if we are talking about #408-409 or some other incident, but sure, saving Belkar from Miko WAS the right thing to do. For all I can't stand dagger-happy Belkar, Miko did not even know of any good reason to kill him

You mean, other than decapitating an innocent guard and using his blood to taunt her? And swearing to sadistically kill her sapient, Lawful Good horse? (The latter assumes Windstriker told Miko about something that I can't imagine any reason why he wouldn't tell her, but I'm sure there are people on this forum who can; the former is inarguablyclearly established.)


What bugs me is how protective of Belkar Haley was during the Greysky City plot, even after she learned that the GMoJ was activated and, later, that Belkar killed the Oracle. If you ask me, by this point Haley is a greater question mark in the morality department that Vaarsuvius or even Belkar himself.
Well, yeah. Belkar isn't and has never been a question mark. I would say Vaarsuvius isn't either now, though I know some people disagree.

[hamishspence]

the guard was (admittedly unknowingly) acting on behalf of a group that had unlawfully incarcerated Belkar and the rest of the Order.

That was the case Roy made to Hinjo, anyway. And Hinjo agreed that Belkar's act was manslaughter rather than murder.

Legally, unnecessary killing while escaping from wrongful incarceration being downgraded to manslaughter, usually requires some form of mitigating factor, like having "a belief that one's life is in danger" reasonable or otherwise.

[B. Dandelion]

I would neither praise it for its virtuousness nor condemn it for its immorality.

Standing aside and letting Miko butcher him would have probably earned a similar reaction. On the one hand, he was helpless. On the other, he definitely had it coming. (Though YMMV, I suppose.)

But that wasn't really the metric we were invited to use. There's a certain admirable quality to loyalty as a motivating factor -- at the least, it's more sympathetic than many others, even if we do ultimately have to call the character a bad guy. But since here neither choice was really strongly good or evil I think it reflects well on the OotS that they stood up for him on those grounds, yeah. If the Giant had tried to play it as a purely "good" move it would've failed, but it worked okay for me as the "right" thing to do for the sake of the group.

Was it the smartest choice? Well they probably didn't need to goad Miko verbally on top of stopping her physical assault, but I think that's a pretty impossible call to make even before you start throwing in speculation over "what could have been."

[multilis]

In a bonus strip in WaXP, Miko kinda demonstrates just why she doesn't have many friends. :smallwink:

Friendship is a two way street, you know. :smallsmile:Agreed, but it is a self feeding loop. X is not nice to Y so Y is not nice to X and X becomes even less reasonable.

Miko *was* somewhat reasonable with Durkon.

Roy also has his own ego problems which make things worse, as result he screwed up with asking Oracle to which gate X was heading, he ignored info in V from the celestials (thinking they were talking about Belkar), and imo he didn't handle Miko as well as he could have, Miko can be very useful if you can find the "right job for the right monster" like Klaus in Girl Genius comic, sort of like a mirror image of the pirate queen there... or in this comic X found a good use for her.

[Cleverdan22]

I think they made the right call on saving Belkar. Not only had some of them developed something similar to a friendship with him, (Elan, V in a way) but he is a sound melee warrior, more than able to hold his own and contribute to the fight.

[David Argall]

I'd have gone with:

"he was a kidnapped person (since we were not in the jurisdiction of Azure City) under the impression that he would be convicted and executed for a capital crime that he didn't personally commit.

An impression you gave him by using the phrases "crimes for which the only sentence is death" and "We have diviners who do not make mistakes about such things"

That makes him to be acting in genuine fear for his life- and thus, executing him for his actions taken under this fear of wrongful execution by kidnappers, to be unjust."

This idea might be beloved of an academic lawyer who has never tried an actual case, but it is horribly unconvincing for anyone else.
Miko and the forces of Azure City do not consider Belkar in the least anything but a lawfully arrested felon, and they will not be convinced by any plea on this basis, a point Roy should already know.
And Belkar does not act in genuine fear of his life. He actively lures Miko into following him and tells us of his desire to kill a few people just for fun. So he kills the guard not because of any desire to protect his life or other rights, but just so he can engage in crime.

[Lvl45DM!]

*shrugs* its a party, you always defend each other
Its like at the end of the Pirates movie. Jack Sparrow is a pirate, he is a theif at best a mass murderer at worst. Has committed dozens upon dozens of crimes and is thoroughly unrepentant...plus he smells bad

Wills saves him anyway, cos thats what you do when you adventure together

[ClericOfBelker]

YES IT WAS A GOOD THING TO DO!!!! *Stab*

[Trixie]

Yes, it was. Note that the ruler of the country supported Roy on this, and ordered Miko to withdraw, reminding her that justice is something best left to judges, not vigilantes.

[hamishspence]

And Belkar does not act in genuine fear of his life. He actively lures Miko into following him and tells us of his desire to kill a few people just for fun.

True...


So he kills the guard not because of any desire to protect his life or other rights, but just so he can engage in crime.

And... unsupported inference. The idea that Belkar killed the guard "just so he can engage in crime" does not follow from what he says to Miko later.

Nor, for that matter, does it follow from Hinjo's willingness to reduce the charges. As mentioned, if Belkar has been "illegally imprisoned" he has a case that he can take "reasonable steps" to escape, and even if the steps were unreasonable, charges can still be manslaughter instead of murder.

But this reduction can only follow from an illegal imprisonment.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd sayletting Miko kill him would definitily have been the right thing to do due to how I'd say the chances of Belkar actually turning neutral were always non-existant (also, the Order's reasons for defending Belkar were "murder is less serious then insulting ME!!!!" (Vaarseuveus), "You're mean!" (Elan), "He's not done anything to harm us." (Roy), and "Thor wouldn't want anymore death." (Durkon, who gave the only reason which seemed valid to any degree).)

Considering Belkar's crimes, and the fact that Miko's worse offence appeared to have been giving the Order the same treatment that they routeinly give NPCs (eg: Roy seeing them as only being relevant to his story while not caring about them if they aren't and V blowing people up because s/he is insulted by them or is too stupid to keep hold of a claim ticket). Considering how unlikable the Order in general are, I'd say Miko did well to avoid ranting at them earlier (eg: Roy and V are both highly arrogant while possessing superiosity complexes in addition to not being as smart as they think they are, Elan is a complete moron who had to wait until someone died due to his lack of planning before he started optimizing dispite almost dying in a similar situation, Haley is greedy, Belkar was a murderous psychopath and Durkon has no defining characteristics beyond being a Dwarf). (And Roy was constantly using bad pick-up lines on Miko. In addition to that, they, to Miko's knowledge, were potential criminals so she really had no reason to even keep them unchained initially.)

[Dark Faun]

I agree. Their reactions were more than questionable with Durkon's possible exception; it even seemed Roy helped Belkar not to actually help him, but because doing so angered (and maybe hurt) Miko even more.

Speaking of Miko's treatment of the Order, I was actually taken aback when Miko said she wouldn't mind dating Roy when he still was a criminal in her eyes. :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

In addition to that, they, to Miko's knowledge, were potential criminals so she really had no reason to even keep them unchained initially.)


As Roy pointed out: Who gave them the right to send her up there to arrest them? The gods, but not the law.

Being "arrested" and dragged south for "Crimes for which the only possible sentence is death" will sour you on the arresting officer.

also, Paladin Blues commentary described them standing up for Belkar as the point when Roy has matured fully in his respect for the party as a whole- and fully learned his lesson that began with him choosing not to abandon Elan after all.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point about the crimes they were accused off, Hammish. Having said that, once the Order surrendered, I'd say Miko was being more then reasonable with them. (The opening threat was a pretty bad idea due to it not giving the Order an incentive to actually go quietly, but considering the threat the Gates posed to the world, combined with Miko's assumption that they were dangerous criminals from the townspeople's accounts of the LG's actions, it could be argued that she had no reason to believe they would surrender anyway.)

[hamishspence]

While Roy didn't actually surrender in the middle of the fight, his "I think we got off on the wrong foot and should calm down" was an attempt at it, and when Miko responded to it with an attempt at killing him (when, as we later found out, Miko had been ordered to take them alive if at all possible), it strongly suggested someone who cannot be trusted to act reasonably.

Similarly, his "Elan did it and we are all accomplices" bit is attributing far too much blame- when they could hardly be expected to realize the danger.

Paladin Blues description of the legality of Miko's actions r.e. arresting:

"She feels entitled by her divine mandate to enter other nations and seize people for crimes committed in another place, because she feels that The Law of the Gods trumps the laws of man"

"she believes she is the instrument of the gods vengeance on the wicked, and acts accordingly"

"She is rude and brusque because she expects everyone around her to act as soldiers and obey her orders"

[Tempest Fennac]

I didn't know about that bit from OtOoPCs. Admittedly, I didn't think she was that rude at all.

[hamishspence]

It is true that V began the insulting remarks, refering to her as a "foul shrew" even before she started calling V "Elf".

However Miko starts yelling at Elan rather quickly.

Add in referring to staying in a hotel as "gluttony and corruption" and the Order have some grounds for being resentful.
Nobody likes being called "gluttonous and corrupt"

Roy's treatment of the wizard, the cops, etc does not nearly approach Miko's insulting tone.

[David Argall]

unsupported inference. The idea that Belkar killed the guard "just so he can engage in crime" does not follow from what he says to Miko later.
It follows from what Belkar says to us. "It's like my birthday came early, only instead of birthday cake, there are dead humans. ... Well, more dead humans at any rate." And then, instead of trying to flee the city [or maybe rescue his pals], he starts work on his evil plan.


Nor, for that matter, does it follow from Hinjo's willingness to reduce the charges. As mentioned, if Belkar has been "illegally imprisoned" he has a case that he can take "reasonable steps" to escape, and even if the steps were unreasonable, charges can still be manslaughter instead of murder.
Each step in this reasoning is at best shaky. Indeed your very wording acknowledges this. "Has a case" means the judge actually listens. It does not come close to saying you win. Then we have challenges to whether the step were reasonable, whether Belkar was in fact trying to escape [as opposed to finding a good location to attack Miko from], and that there is any reasonable chance of a judge reducing charges when the steps are deemed unreasonable.
We only accept this sort of reasoning when we are forced to. We see Belkar on one side of a canyon with clearly no way to the other side, and then in the next picture he is on the far side. We start entertaining ideas that he built a catapult and used it to get over. But unless it is shown otherwise, we assume there is a bridge or that the canyon is easily walked around, or... We just do not accept an idea that depends on unshown trees, tools, and rope, not to mention things like Belkar having the knowledge to build one.


But this reduction can only follow from an illegal imprisonment.
No. There are an absurdly large number of reasons why a prosecutor might reduce charges. Here we only have Roy's word that Hinjo's sole reason for reducing the charge was illegal imprisonment. [Oh yes, Roy does not say "sole", "only" or anything like that. So if we take him at his word here, we definitely have to take him at his word when he attacks Miko, and no other motives can be allowed there.]

[Tempest Fennac]

As far as calling V "Elf" went, Miko could have reasonably forgotten it in the heat of battle. As far as Elan went, I'd say shouting at him would be a plausible reaction based on his idiocy, and the Inn buisness ties in with her upbringing (the fact that LG Monks complained about escalators on the side of Mt. Celestia because it made them feel like they were in a mall suggests the view that luxuary is a bad thing is wide-spread among them).

I assumed the reduced charges were solely because Hinjo needed high level characters to defend the city from RC's army rather then because of anything Shojo did.

[Freelance Henchman]

That Belkar got to join and stay with the OOTS at all was a suspension-of-disbelief-bending running joke for the entire timeline of the story. He's obviously a ruthless psychopath, which serves as a source for jokes.

[hamishspence]

Reducing charges without a legal reason to reduce them, can be a case of injustice. From the point of view of the judge, anyway.

Roy is speaking in Hinjo's presence. We can expect that if he was lying, Hinjo would have refuted him.

[Jackson]

What I found amusing about the whole 'gods and not the law' thing is that Shojo's justification is that the Twelve Gods' jurisdiction has no limits, so neither does the jurisdiction of the Sapphire Guard. Then, when the cosmology of the world is explained to us, we begin to see that the Twelve Gods' jurisdiction is limited to the Southern lands - which means that, any way you slice it, they acted without the power to do so.

Except the sheer physical power Miko displayed in putting the Order down. I don't think I'd give them moral superiority when they acted illegally and through force of arms.

Of course, this being a world in which adventurers are allowed to exist means that the laws are different from ours in ways we aren't aware of and never seem to take into account while conducting exercises such as this one, so I'm not sure what to make of the legality/illegality of it all.

[hamishspence]

In theory, Miko could have asked the King of Somewhere to permit her to remove the Order- claiming extradition rights.

In practice, if people "take prisoners" within a kingdom, and transport them around, they had better be able to explain their legal right to do so.

[B. Dandelion]

I'd sayletting Miko kill him would definitily have been the right thing to do due to how I'd say the chances of Belkar actually turning neutral were always non-existant

It's better to stand back and let someone kill a person they are not legally empowered to declare deserving of an execution sentence, when that person is defeated and in (or soon to be in) custody? This means Vaarsuvius was right to zap Kubota, even going one step further to argue that Elan would have been morally wrong to try and stop it.


(also, the Order's reasons for defending Belkar were "murder is less serious then insulting ME!!!!" (Vaarseuveus),

Vaarsuvius said nothing about the murder, so that's not at all an absolution, much less one because she found Miko's personal insults to be a worse offense. Insults were also not mentioned at all.


"You're mean!" (Elan),
Elan is backing up what Roy said ("yeah!"), adding in addition that she is mean. He thinks the OotS are his loyal friends, who came to save him when he'd been kidnapped. Miko chained up said friends and was trying to kill one. She's not a member of their group and she's a meanie.


"He's not done anything to harm us." (Roy),

What Roy said was that Belkar was one of his people, that he couldn't abandon. He was making a point about loyalty. Belkar was a member of Roy's group, had fought for them and failed to turn on them when given ample opportunity, so he'd proven himself worthy of that loyalty and Roy was obligated to him in return.

[Asta Kask]

In practice, if people "take prisoners" within a kingdom, and transport them around, they had better be able to explain their legal right to do so.

She's on a mission from God. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-xtJYIwfYo&feature=related)

[hamishspence]

Which makes her a kidnapper, not a cop with a warrant.

In the 420 discussion thread where Hinjo commutes the sentence: copy-pasted:


the guard was furthering an extralegal campaign of assault, kidnapping, and unlawful imprisonment. Granted, he was duped into doing it, and while that may shift culpability from himself it instead wanders over to ol' Shojo.

[Optimystik]

A counterclaim would be that without Belkar, the order might not be any worse of, and some people (like Solt Lykyurg) would still be alive.

And some people, like Haley Starshine, would be dead.

A rule of thumb I like to follow is Gandalf's. "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

[hamishspence]

True- the claim that "by protecting Belkar Roy is just as culpable for Solt's death as if he had murdered him himself" which some consequentialist reasoning supports, seems to be stretching morality way out of shape.

It is interesting to read The Giant's comment, in the discussion thread for strip 285 where Miko is stopped, on Miko at the time:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6106&page=6

That's an opinion. I would argue that she's getting worse, which is—in fact—development. Before, she was merely abrasive and rude, and maybe a little too devoted to duty. Now, she's bordering on a complete psychotic break.

Also, questions like both "Would Miko have fallen for doing it" "was roy acting properly by stopping her and "was belkar kidnapped"

with most people answering that it is plausible that she would, and:

that Roy wasn't wrong for doing so.

Was Belkar kidnapped and thus having some justification for using violence agent his guard? some people say yes.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding V, s/he was aware that Belkar had killed the guard due to seeing the corpse before the trial started. I could have sworn that Elan said something about Miko being mean (sorry about that mistake). As far as the "killing someone who's soon going to be in custardy" goes, it could be argued that killing Belkar when he was vurnerable would have been the best course of action due to how he already killed 1 guard, so there's every possibility that he may have ended up killing someone else (as far as Kubota went, based on his comments before he was disintigrated, it was arguably for the best that he was killed due to the risk of Hinjo's reputation being wrecked by a trial, especially since, Kubota seemed confidant that he was a "beloved pillar of the community" while Hinjo, based on what most of the refuges could have reasonably known, threw away the city in a hopeless battle rather then try to negotiate with Xykon, meaning they may not have trusted him if charges were brought against Kubota).

[theinsulabot]

hey, any excuse to blast miko

[B. Dandelion]

Regarding V, s/he was aware that Belkar had killed the guard due to seeing the corpse before the trial started.
I could have sworn that Elan said something about Miko being mean (sorry about that mistake).

V was aware of the murder, and for that matter Elan did call Miko a meanie right after chiming in behind Roy, so no need to apologize for a mistake you did not in fact make. But what I said was that V didn't say anything about the murder when attacking Miko. You are presuming that V's knowledge of the guard's death means that she attacked Miko because she believes murder to be a lesser offense than personal insult, when what I'm saying is that's speculation on your part. Vaarsuvius isn't condoning Belkar's actions and she doesn't say anything about Miko's either -- she's not trying to make the argument that Miko's "worse" in a moral sense. Obviously, the OotS doesn't much care for Miko, but I find their actions in the courtroom to be about loyalty to one another at the exclusion of an outsider. None of their issues with her are as paramount as that one, and under the specific circumstances I don't find Miko's inarguable moral superiority to Belkar to be of actual relevance. They would have defended Belkar against *ANY* foe they did not believe had the right to hold him accountable, and I don't see why they especially should have been expected to relinquish that right to her in particular. Not when he was already going to be held accountable by the rightful authority in charge.

[hamishspence]

Concerning Belkar's "right to escape" and whether killing committed in the process are murder or manslaughter (and if manslaughter, Miko's circumvention of the law which does not prescibe execution for it, being a possible reason for the Order to intervene in his defense):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4955&page=7:

The relevant post:


Let's ignore Belkar for the moment. Suppose you have a individual who is attacked, arrested, abused, dragged across national borders, and imprisoned by a foreign authority he does not recognize for an action he did not commit or condone. He expects to be found guilty in a show trial and executed. He is alone, injured, striped of most of his belongings, and unarmed. Finding the chance for escape, he escapes from the dark pit he is imprisoned in. In the ensuing scuffle with a guard, he wrests control of the guard's sword, and the guard is stabbed during the heated melee.

Are those actions
unreasonable?
unjustified?
evil?
Returning to Belkar, how similar are his circumstances with the above example?

[Optimystik]

Adding to hamish's point, Belkar only killed one person - his guard. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) He could have easily killed more - Miko certainly, and the soup chefs as well - but he didn't. Writing in his victim's blood was certainly depraved, and he definitely didn't need to relish the thought of killing more humans (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0261.html) as much as he did, but at least his actions showed more restraint than his words.

[Tempest Fennac]

You're probably right about them defending Belkar from anyone (admittedly, I find it hard to trace V's motives a lot of the time due to him/her appearing to do things on impulse without caring about obvious negative consequences, eg: at the magic item shop and when killing the Black Dragon).