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lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-28, 08:09 PM
There are several variants of swordsages under the Adaptation block. Besides the unarmed swordsage variant, there is a magical swordsage variant, but it doesn't go into detail much about how to use it. Anyone have any suggestions?

It only says:

Remove Light Armor Proficiency
Change Hit Die to d6

but it doesn't address class features and such; perhaps:

Change Discipline focus so it applies to schools instead
How would spells known work? Maybe similar to sorcerer but use the Manuevers known progression?
What to do with the Stances and stance based class features?

Glimbur
2009-09-28, 08:22 PM
So, the problem you'll have is that wizard spells are not meant to be a per encounter resource. You're not intended to be able to cast your highest level spells every encounter. At first level? Every fight starts with a Color Spray or Sleep. At fifth? Everyone is Hasted, every fight. At ninth? All Cloudkill, Feeblemind, or Waves of Fatigue all the time.

Wizard spells are too good to be per encounter.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-28, 08:36 PM
Ah of course, I've forgotten about the recovery mechanic, perhaps scrap them. How will spells work per day? Swordsage automatically gets all of them readied to use after meditation (15 minutes for manuevers right?)? Essentially giving all spells 1/day. Or give them only the amount equal to manuevers readied. However that would seem to weaken them if I'm right.

PonceAlyosha
2009-09-28, 08:59 PM
I've actually been ruminating on this for a while, along with ungimping the soulblade, as the both should fill the same sort of niche.

Since Swordsages don't get access to White Raven, none of their stances should be directly buffing allies. The maneuvers should fit the disciplines thematically, but probably at a level or two higher than they would be as spells, but that doesn't solve anything with recovery mechanics or casting stats.

Honestly, I think it may be better served by simply giving swashbucklers a TOB progression.

Draken
2009-09-28, 09:23 PM
If you want to make the mystical swordsage the first thing you should do is not give him the wizard spell list.

Quite simple really. Give him the Warmage list, maybe with a couple illusions and abjurations added. Nothing too much.

I am sure few would resist the pull of the potentia to shoot fireballs at whim without caring about the possibility of going out of spells. There is just something innately fun about shooting evocation around like it was a videogame and you could just sit for a few seconds (one full round action, to be specific), drink something and go back to blasting willy-nilly.

jiriku
2009-09-28, 09:52 PM
Ah of course, I've forgotten about the recovery mechanic, perhaps scrap them. How will spells work per day? Swordsage automatically gets all of them readied to use after meditation (15 minutes for manuevers right?)? Essentially giving all spells 1/day. Or give them only the amount equal to manuevers readied. However that would seem to weaken them if I'm right.

Look to the warlock for inspiration. Warlock gets a number of wizard spells usable an unlimited number of times per day, and is not considered an excessively powerful class. The key is limiting the spells known and controlling the level at which the powers are accessible (e.g. wall of fire an unlimited number of times per day at 7th level would be overpowered, but wall of perilous flame at 11th level is fine).

Generally, when a wizard of equivalent level has access to level X spells, granting a swordsage renewable access to a tightly controlled list of spells of level X-1 should be okay.

Edit: unless you're willing to edit and revise spells, choose spells with fairly limited effect. For example, the warlock's charm invocation is only balanced by the restriction that the warlock can have only a single being charmed at once. Without the revision it would get out of control quickly.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-28, 10:33 PM
The adaptation says that the mystical swordsage should get mostly Abjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation as spell schools to choose from, picking mostly touch or personal ranged spells. So working from there, I don't think that it would be too powerful to give the swordsage the wizard list; No Conjuration means no gate/planar binding, other stuff I missed. No enchantment or illusion means will save or dies are gone. No divination means no paranoid wizard builds. With Necromancy gone, fort save or dies are gone also. Thereby hopefully balancing the swordsage out; of course many transmutation spells will need to be removed (Time Stop; Polymorph line; etc.)

On a side note, I can't remember, but does the arcane swordsage remove their manuevers?

Sophismata
2009-09-28, 11:50 PM
So, the problem you'll have is that wizard spells are not meant to be a per encounter resource. You're not intended to be able to cast your highest level spells every encounter. At first level? Every fight starts with a Color Spray or Sleep. At fifth? Everyone is Hasted, every fight. At ninth? All Cloudkill, Feeblemind, or Waves of Fatigue all the time.

This can (and does) already happen with (specialist) Wizards. I am not seeing a big problem here, particularly if you take sharnian's suggestion and ban some schools.

jiriku
2009-09-29, 12:15 AM
On a side note, I can't remember, but does the arcane swordsage remove their manuevers?

Basically, the arcane swordsage keeps the standard swordsage maneuver progression but gains the ability to learn a spell instead of a maneuver when gaining a level.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-29, 06:42 PM
Eh, Not bad, makes it so he's not just a gimped spellcaster. However, potential problem? Does it have Prerequisites for spells or can he just dip Polymorph, Antimagic, and such while continuing through manuevers? Also does he have full CL?

Saph
2009-09-29, 07:29 PM
I'm playing an Arcane Swordsage at the moment. The way I've done it is that you start with the Evocation, Abjuration, and Transmutation spells that are personal or touch range, then pick the ones that are appropriate.

In general, you should be able to do the same sort of thing as a regular Swordsage, but with spells instead of maneuvers. So using Shocking Grasp is cool, because that's exactly the kind of thing Swordsages do with Desert Wind, except with fire instead of electricity. Using Resist Energy on yourself is also fine, because Desert Wind swordsages also get fire resistance. Spamming Resist Energy over and over again on your party members isn't fine, because it's completely against the way swordsages work - they don't protect everyone around them, just themselves. It's also pretty boring.

Arcane Swordsage is a very vaguely defined class, so you have to set a certain amount of limits to be able to use it. Note however that even with these limits, it's still VERY powerful, and isn't appropriate for any normal-powered campaign. My arcane swordsage's current maneuver/spell list looks like this:

1st-level

• Burning Blade
• Wolf Fang Strike
• Shield
• Mage Armour
• Shocking Grasp
• Expeditious Retreat

2nd-level

• Flame Dagger
• Belker Claws
• Wings of Cover

The result is a fast, high-AC character who jumps into melee and fights with touch attack spells, then backs off to recover. Very fun to play, as you have a lot of options every fight . . . but definitely not suitable for a normal game.

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 07:41 PM
Remember that the class in question is a suggestion for a class, not meant to be played.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-29, 07:47 PM
I see your point, but would this be enough to propel them into the Tiers of wizards and clerics, or sorcerers and favored souls?

KellKheraptis
2009-09-29, 07:56 PM
I see your point, but would this be enough to propel them into the Tiers of wizards and clerics, or sorcerers and favored souls?

Given that the schools suggested are just that, suggestions, yes. You have access to every arcane spell (and by extension with the right items, every spell), and every power if you play it right, and possibly every maneuver if you multiclass properly. Read a certain way, it gets broken by the fact that you treat your IL as your CL. Let that sink in. Now go JPM. +18 to CL and IL :) Level 9 spells by 14th level (I think was when it hit 17...I'll have to dig up my speed access ArcSS). But the real draw for me is versatility. Take for example : Arcane Swordsage 3/Warblade 1/Arcane Swordsage +1/Swiftblade 10/Incantatrix 3/Warblade +1/Arcane Swordsage +1. Potentially 9th level maneuvers from all but Devoted Spirit, which you can cover with spells, 9th level arcane spells, possibly including every divine spell ever as well (Tome of Ancient Lore trick being used to learn spells over and above your limit, freeing up full maneuver slots, or simply adding to your spells known if that interpretation is used to give a Wizard progression), and to top it all off, play as a Kalashtar, pay to have Psy. Chirugy implanted on you, and then you can self add powers as you come across/steal/DCFS/power stone them. Lacking PP's? Cast mental pinnacle to get a boatload. That build above gets a final IL/CL of 23 IIRC (too lazy to add again), so that's 69 points, +Int bonus PP at that level (and even without, that'll last you until you need to cast it again). And best of all : it's all of a full round action to refresh everything. And you can do that at will inside an AMF. That is why people think ASS is broken.

sofawall
2009-09-29, 07:58 PM
Hell no for Tier 1, not likely for Tier 2.

They may get some spells, but not the full gamut. Really high 3, or low 2.

EDIT: Saying the suggestions are just suggestions is kinda pointless, as the whole damn class is one big suggestion.

EDIT2: Didn't even think of double CL advancement... The whole class is too poorly defined to even have a try at placing it, as one person will interpret the vagueness one way, and another person will think it's completely different.

Proven by this thread :P