PDA

View Full Version : IT'SATRAP! - Worst Spells Per Level [3.5]



subject42
2009-09-28, 09:25 PM
I've seen threads on here and gleemax for the best spells available at any given level, but is there a list of spells anywhere that should be completely avoided because they just aren't worth the spellbook space?

deuxhero
2009-09-28, 09:31 PM
I think there was a list of spells by school over on Gleemax that gave really bad ones a turkey smiley. The Conception The upgrade broke it though (still readable if you can ignore the :turkey: formating appearing instead of smilieys.

ericgrau
2009-09-28, 09:34 PM
Well, I'd find it better to split the spells into spellbook spells, scroll/wand spells, rare situation spells, and "just forget it" spells. There are maybe a couple trap spells per level, but many more that you'll often not want to take.

ghost_warlock
2009-09-28, 09:36 PM
Well, for starters, you can simply ignore the entire Evocation school, other than Contigency and Defenstrating Sphere. :smallwink:

CockroachTeaParty
2009-09-28, 09:44 PM
Well, this isn't a spell, but the psionic power Shatter Mind Blank is terrible. I honestly can't fathom what its use is.

First, it's higher level than Dispel Psionics. Second, it allows Power Resistance and allows a Will save. Dispel Psionics ignores PR and has no save. On top of that, Shatter Mind Blank requires a Manifester Level check just like Dispel!

SMB affects a 30 ft. radius around you, so you can get more than one person with it, and since there's no area dispel that targets a specific spell or power, perhaps it could be useful in a situation where you are surrounded by multiple people under the protection of a Mind Blank effect, and you need to remove the MB... :smallfurious:

Seriously... when would this EVER be useful? It's the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

ericgrau
2009-09-28, 09:45 PM
Well, for starters, you can simply ignore the entire Evocation school, other than Contigency and Defenstrating Sphere. :smallwink:

...until people bring up the "brokenness" of forcecage and the usefulness of two dozen other spells. Often to argue against someone else's point, saying that the wizard is ready for situation X. Even though they recommend in another thread that he ban evocation.

Seriously, do people have an enchantment(compulsion) effect on them to take pot shots at common topics every chance they get without exception? That is not the way to reason, though the sheer volume of words may convince some. That's advertising by repetition. And coke is the best cola ever. Now where's my $500 kickback?

Tyndmyr
2009-09-28, 09:47 PM
Disjunction.

Spells that destroy your loot are the devil.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 09:49 PM
water is better then coke...
I agree about disjunction... especially because if you keep on using it, suddenly your enemies do to... :( And you are a broke

Thurbane
2009-09-28, 09:49 PM
I found Bigby's Tripping Hand to be quite awful - it allows SR, a save, requires a to hit roll, and has an opposed check to negate it entirely. :smallconfused:

ericgrau
2009-09-28, 09:50 PM
Ah yes, disjunction, simultaneously one of the strongest and the worst. And, yes, water is better and cheaper than coke. I was being facetious.

Back on topic, I'm gonna say resistance. Who would even quicken a spell for a +1 to saves? Waste of time.

Zaq
2009-09-28, 09:52 PM
If psionics counts, I'm pretty sure that Slow Breathing is the stupidest power ever.

FMArthur
2009-09-28, 09:54 PM
This may be a little too subjective or circumstancial for a definitive list.

There are truckloads of very situational spells that you should not prepare unless you can forsee that you're going to need it... It's nearly impossible to determine just how much less valuable Silent Image is than Grease, because one is used almost exclusively outside of measurable combat.

...And then there are a smaller number of spells that are made literally redundant by others or by other easier methods. Those are the only ones you can safely say "do not ever think of using this spell", and this thread is best off describing those. Also, if spell B is better than spell A but is higher level, then spell A isn't completely redundant.

Draken
2009-09-28, 09:56 PM
The tome of Necromancy listed Ghoul Gauntlet as a trap, since it shares a control pool with Animate Dead, and creating ghouls is not particularly more effective than creating simple skeletons or zombies. It is also, of course, a sixth level spell with a rather poor dps.

But it doesn't really look all that bad, and ghouls aren't that much bad, for two HD they are better than zombies really. It's not like the LA factors into the control pool.

Plus no material component.

Now you want a trap? I will give you a trap. Player Handbook, page 231. Right bellow Firestorm.

:smalltongue:

deuxhero
2009-09-28, 09:58 PM
@Draken
And for people who don't have it in front of them?

Zemro
2009-09-28, 10:01 PM
@Draken
And for people who don't have it in front of them?

I'm assuming he's referring to the Fire Trap spell. Not that I have my book in front of me, just that that seems to be the next spell in alphabetical order.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:01 PM
Now you want a trap? I will give you a trap. Player Handbook, page 231. Right bellow Firestorm.

Thats more of a riddle than a trap... a riddle with a fairly simple solution, but nonetheless...

technophile
2009-09-28, 10:03 PM
@Draken
And for people who don't have it in front of them?
I prepared Fire Trap this morning...

Tyndmyr
2009-09-28, 10:03 PM
Ah yes, disjunction, simultaneously one of the strongest and the worst. And, yes, water is better and cheaper than coke. I was being facetious.

Back on topic, I'm gonna say resistance. Who would even quicken a spell for a +1 to saves? Waste of time.

It's a cantrip, though. Cantrips are automatically learned, and it's not like any of them are exactly powerful, so you don't really lose anything for having it. Sure, it becomes worthless pretty quickly...but are you seriously going to prepare ray of frost once you have any amount of levels? The only cantrips that keep any value are utility ones.

Draken, excellent choice. In addition to being a spell that actually is a trap(Fire Trap), it's also a trap due to being a level higher than, and much weaker damage than explosive runes.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-28, 10:05 PM
Oh....summon monster 1. All summons have a range of one round per caster level, and take a full round to cast. In short, at level one, summon monster 1 is pretty much worthless. By the time it actually is vaguely worth casting, you could have summon monster two, which is just better in every way.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-28, 10:07 PM
It's nearly impossible to determine just how much less valuable Silent Image is than Grease, because one is used almost exclusively outside of measurable combat.

Wah Huga wahtama? Silent Image worse than grease? Silent Image not useful in combat?


The tome of Necromancy listed Ghoul Gauntlet as a trap, since it shares a control pool with Animate Dead, and creating ghouls is not particularly more effective than creating simple skeletons or zombies. It is also, of course, a sixth level spell with a rather poor dps.

But it doesn't really look all that bad, and ghouls aren't that much bad, for two HD they are better than zombies really. It's not like the LA factors into the control pool.

It's not just that. It doesn't share your pool, it sets your pool to a smaller number than you could already have.

Not to mention why you would have 2HD skeletons anywhere at all when you are casting 6th level spells is beyond me.

sonofzeal
2009-09-28, 10:07 PM
Well, for starters, you can simply ignore the entire Evocation school, other than Contigency and Defenstrating Sphere. :smallwink:
Sure, because no Wizard ever casts "Light".

Alteran
2009-09-28, 10:07 PM
@Draken
And for people who don't have it in front of them?

I don't own the book, but I imagine it's Fire Trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireTrap.htm). :smalltongue:

Edit: Ninja'd several times.

ericgrau
2009-09-28, 10:10 PM
Fine, I'll leave cantrips out. How about daze monster then? The monster loses a single action but, oh wait, you just did too. But maybe the monster is strong enough so that, oh wait, 6 HD cap.

Fire trap is only 2nd level for druids, and often easier to trigger than explosive runes. But, yes, it's a trap :smallbiggrin:.

Summon monster I is famous for being the wizard's trapfinder extraordinaire.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:12 PM
baleful polymorph gives a +4 to resist it if you try to polymorph them into a form that cannot survive in current environment, such as a fish on land.

I'd say that this use of it is a trap. You can instead baleful them into something that cannot run away with not extra cost. Such as a slug. or a form that they aren't likely to be able to use effectively to escape, like a bat (they don't know how to fly, they don't know how to ecolocate, and they were just switched into a nocturnal creature). Although, I'd test the bat theory first, if it gives them perfect command of new body then it is risky as they can fly away. Maybe a toad.

The ferret polymorph is a bad idea because it is fast and can get away.

Ernir
2009-09-28, 10:12 PM
Tenser's Transformation goes on my list of actual traps - a spell that looks like it might be good, but isn't.
Because... congratulations. You are now essentially a Fighter with no bonus feats, lower HP, and an ability score array and items that don't fit your class.
I get it if this is literally the last spell you have prepared... but are you really sure you wouldn't rather have had another Disintegrate?


Now you want a trap? I will give you a trap. Player Handbook, page 231. Right bellow Firestorm.

:smalltongue:

*Doh*

Tyndmyr
2009-09-28, 10:16 PM
Daze is weak...but it's useful as a low level spell for targeting will saves. In theory, your party bashes him while you trade actions with him. Not great, but again...it's a cantrip.

Whispering Wind. It's like Message, but it's level 2. It has the usual limitations that message does. It does have a somewhat longer range, but unlike message, it can't be sent to multiple people. Also, it's ridiculously slow. When I call for help, I don't want it to take hours for them to even get my message.

deuxhero
2009-09-28, 10:16 PM
but are you seriously going to prepare ray of frost once you have any amount of levels?

If you have sneak attack dice possibly.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:17 PM
daze means sacrificing your action, which is useless anyways as a level 1 wizard... for maybe an enemy's action, who might be a bit stronger and is ganged up on by your tanks. so I would say it is useful.

jiriku
2009-09-28, 10:24 PM
Useless spells:

Virtue, as a paladin 1 spell. Paladins get hardly any spells. To burn one of those precious spell slots on a spell that grants one temporary hitpoint is a horrible trap. Even the bard doesn't face the insult of weak cantrips masquerading as 1st level spells.

Daze monster is also a terrible option. Action advantage wins battles, and sacrificing your action for a chance of forcing one low-HD enemy to sacrifice his action is a terrible use of an action and a worse use of a spell slot. Plus, the spell quickly becomes obsolete at higher levels.

For all the marketing it gets around here, rope trick is also A Trap! As in, everyone climbs into the extradimensional space and then the group's doofus (every group has one) says to the DM, "Hey, now that I'm in here, what happens to the stuff in that bag of holding I picked up the last adventure?" Boom. Really, rope trick is useless for its intended purpose, because I've never known a party not to use extradimensional containers like bags of holding and HHH.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-28, 10:25 PM
I'll agree that it's worthless after a bit though. Not really a trap, just only useful at low levels. There's a few spells like that.

Nystulís Magic Aura - Seems useful...but seriously, it's ridiculously specific. Does not function on non magical, non MW items. Does not function on artifacts. Only useful against detect magic. Says nothing about affecting alignment, which, if you want to hide something, is what you really want to hide. Generally not worth learning.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-28, 10:25 PM
baleful polymorph gives a +4 to resist it if you try to polymorph them into a form that cannot survive in current environment, such as a fish on land.

I'd say that this use of it is a trap. You can instead baleful them into something that cannot run away with not extra cost. Such as a slug. or a form that they aren't likely to be able to use effectively to escape, like a bat (they don't know how to fly, they don't know how to ecolocate, and they were just switched into a nocturnal creature). Although, I'd test the bat theory first, if it gives them perfect command of new body then it is risky as they can fly away. Maybe a toad.

The ferret polymorph is a bad idea because it is fast and can get away.

You must be in dire straights if a 20ft move speed Weasel with a -12 grapple mod can escape you. Toad is absolutely the best, since 5ft move and -17 grapple is worse, but yeah. After they fail the save, if you can afford to send anything at all after them, they are trapped.

Heck if they happened to already be within the are of an EBT, they are trapped. Even a summon monster 1 will keep them caught.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:37 PM
For all the marketing it gets around here, rope trick is also A Trap! As in, everyone climbs into the extradimensional space and then the group's doofus (every group has one) says to the DM, "Hey, now that I'm in here, what happens to the stuff in that bag of holding I picked up the last adventure?" Boom. Really, rope trick is useless for its intended purpose, because I've never known a party not to use extradimensional containers like bags of holding and HHH.

a party above level 8! because a 3rd level party in a rope trick will get 3 hours of sleep before being unceremoniously dumped unto the floor from however many feet in the air they were. (1 hour per caster level)


You must be in dire straights if a 20ft move speed Weasel with a -12 grapple mod can escape you. Toad is absolutely the best, since 5ft move and -17 grapple is worse, but yeah. After they fail the save, if you can afford to send anything at all after them, they are trapped.

Heck if they happened to already be within the are of an EBT, they are trapped. Even a summon monster 1 will keep them caught.

Or kill them :)... summon monster 1: housecat
perfect companion to baleful polymorph... and no need for that pesky +4 to resisting it.
If there are a bunch of other enemies, they might yet escape... especially if they have a contingency teleport now that I think about it...

Is there any creature worse than a toad to turn them into? it should have the minimum possible speed and a grapple resistance.. ideally an immobile creature.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-28, 10:39 PM
If you're elves, you can get away with it at level 4...an all elf party is a wee bit unlikely though, and you do run into meditation problems. Im pretty sure suddenly free falling out of a rope trick would count as an interruption.

It's great at the appropriate levels, with the appropriate gear, and can also be used as a way of getting concealment in the middle of nowhere though, so I don't know if it's truly a trap...perhaps just overrated.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:41 PM
If you're elves, you can get away with it at level 4...an all elf party is a wee bit unlikely though, and you do run into meditation problems. Im pretty sure suddenly free falling out of a rope trick would count as an interruption.

It's great at the appropriate levels, with the appropriate gear, and can also be used as a way of getting concealment in the middle of nowhere though, so I don't know if it's truly a trap...perhaps just overrated.

well, you could also all wear rings of sustenance (2 hour sleep only)... but the only REASON to sleep in dnd is to regain spells... which means 8 hours... 9 technically because 1 hour to prepare spells... and free falling out is interrupting.

deuxhero
2009-09-28, 10:47 PM
Is there any creature worse than a toad to turn them into? it should have the minimum possible speed and a grapple resistance.. ideally an immobile creature.

new born puppy? A toad has sight.

infinitypanda
2009-09-28, 10:49 PM
Virtue, as a paladin 1 spell. Paladins get hardly any spells. To burn one of those precious spell slots on a spell that grants one temporary hitpoint is a horrible trap. Even the bard doesn't face the insult of weak cantrips masquerading as 1st level spells.

The real kick in the balls there is that paladins also get Cure Light Wounds as a level 1 spell.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:49 PM
new born puppy?

EPIC! they cannot walk, they cannot see for 2 weeks... perfect!

Korivan
2009-09-28, 10:52 PM
I'm assuming he's referring to the Fire Trap spell. Not that I have my book in front of me, just that that seems to be the next spell in alphabetical order.

Want a reall trap of fire...FireBall, Its big, its mean, its loud and in charge.....or not. Unmetamagiked its 10-60 points of fire damage. One of the largest if not thee largest found resistance/immunities out there. Evasion/improved evasion with a nice reflex makes it nill value. That and you need to make sure your not getting your own allies in the mix. In the last campaign, our party's wizard cast this constantly from levels 5-10. At level 10 he launched this in the mix of his 2 fighter companions and 4 enemies. The enemies all made thier save, and had fire resistance 10. He rolled a 36 damage. The enemies ended only taking 8 damage, meanwhile the 2 fighters in platemail took 36 damage. Not cool.

deuxhero
2009-09-28, 10:55 PM
EPIC! they cannot walk, they cannot see for 2 weeks... perfect!

Killing puppys (even if they are deranged serial killers or virgin kidnaping dragons turned into puppys) might kick your alignment to evil.

Do cats suffer the same disabilitys at birth?

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:56 PM
Killing puppys (even if they are deranged serial killers or virgin kidnaping dragons turned into puppys) might kick your alignment to evil.

Do cats suffer the same disabilitys at birth?

yes... actually, you can just do a human newborn :)

deuxhero
2009-09-28, 10:59 PM
yes... actually, you can just do a human newborn :)

Not really. While humans are scientifically animals, the spell calls for creature of the "animal" type.

But yeah, you can get away with polymorphing a monster into a kitten and killing it (before you can do the same with a puppy or human baby)

Akal Saris
2009-09-28, 11:08 PM
The real kick in the balls there is that paladins also get Cure Light Wounds as a level 1 spell.

Yeah - I'd have to agree with Virtue for the Paladin being possibly the worst spell for any 1st level list.

Eye of Power (Spell Compendium Wiz/Sorc 9) is another horribly weak one - spend a 9th level slot to cast Arcane Eye (Wiz 4) only with the ability to cast up to 3rd level spells through it? With a 10 minute casting time but a duration of minutes/level, and unlike Arcane Eye the summoned eye is visible, corporal, and has a low AC and low HPs? Who on earth would ever take this?

deuxhero
2009-09-28, 11:11 PM
Because uh... um... I have no idea what so ever. Eye of Power is the winner (loser?) of the thread.

jiriku
2009-09-28, 11:13 PM
a party above level 8! because a 3rd level party in a rope trick will get 3 hours of sleep before being unceremoniously dumped unto the floor from however many feet in the air they were. (1 hour per caster level)


Lol yes...you're having one of those nightmares that you're falling, and you can't wake up...then you fall and wake up.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 11:14 PM
Yeah - I'd have to agree with Virtue for the Paladin being possibly the worst spell for any 1st level list.

Eye of Power (Spell Compendium Wiz/Sorc 9) is another horribly weak one - spend a 9th level slot to cast Arcane Eye (Wiz 4) only with the ability to cast up to 3rd level spells through it? With a 10 minute casting time but a duration of minutes/level, and unlike Arcane Eye the summoned eye is visible, corporal, and has a low AC and low HPs? Who on earth would ever take this?

well... for sorc it would be stupid... but a wizard can have infinite spells... and if he needs to assassinate a specific person.. eye of power to their home at night, cast fireball. or anything else for that matter... summon poison snake... It sounds like an awesome spell for a very "intrigue" and RP based game...

it only fails if there is something that allows you to cast higher level spells through it at someone.

deuxhero
2009-09-28, 11:17 PM
well... for sorc it would be stupid... but a wizard can have infinite spells... and if he needs to assassinate a specific person.. eye of power to their home at night, cast fireball. or anything else for that matter... summon poison snake... It sounds like an awesome spell for a very "intrigue" and RP based game...

it only fails if there is something that allows you to cast higher level spells through it at someone.

2 castings of Teleport can be obtained many levels earlier.

Godskook
2009-09-28, 11:19 PM
phantasmal killer

Problems with it(each one alone, wouldn't make a trap)
-mind-affecting
-fear effect
-death effect
-will save
-fort save
-chance of backfire

Now, if you can get through all that, you kill the subject, but that's a lot of weak points in a single spell.

jiriku
2009-09-28, 11:19 PM
I took a diviner to level 20 in a previous campaign, and took eye of power because I had to -- there weren't any other divination spells available to fill my requirement of one per level. I never used that spell. Ever.

ericgrau
2009-09-28, 11:25 PM
2 castings of Teleport can be obtained many levels earlier.

As can dimensional anchor, a sword to the gut (or harmful spell) and similar things. I mean any major political figure without defenses would already be dead. The spell does seem a bit situational though.

Milskidasith
2009-09-28, 11:25 PM
You couldn't have just taken Foresight? That's a far better spell. (Then again, it can cause DM headaches.)

Akal Saris
2009-09-28, 11:42 PM
Well, it probably went like this:
17: Foresight
18: Hindsight
19: Eye of Power
20: Holy Moly, there's only 3 divination spells this level?!

jiriku
2009-09-28, 11:48 PM
Well, it probably went like this:
17: Foresight
18: Hindsight
19: Eye of Power
20: Holy Moly, there's only 3 divination spells this level?!

Yup. I made it worse by picking up all of the good 8th and 9th level divination spells by level 18. By level 19 it was eye of power, and for level 20 I had to pick some lame 5th level divination or other.

Teron
2009-09-29, 12:35 AM
phantasmal killer

Problems with it(each one alone, wouldn't make a trap)
-mind-affecting
-fear effect
-death effect
-will save
-fort save
-chance of backfire

Now, if you can get through all that, you kill the subject, but that's a lot of weak points in a single spell.
It's not a death effect, actually, and the possibility of backfiring is pretty negligible. It's still not a great spell, though, and weird is even worse. At that level, immunity to mind affecting effects is readily available to humanoids in addition to being inherent to many monsters, and you have a lot of better SoDs to choose from.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-29, 01:26 AM
well... for sorc it would be stupid... but a wizard can have infinite spells... and if he needs to assassinate a specific person.. eye of power to their home at night, cast fireball. or anything else for that matter... summon poison snake... It sounds like an awesome spell for a very "intrigue" and RP based game...

it only fails if there is something that allows you to cast higher level spells through it at someone.

If you're familiar with 2nd Ed spells that got converted in 3rd Ed Dragon Mag, sticks to snakes would be THE assassination spell with this. Limited duration, can be used on his freaking FERNS, and at that CL, can get something like Gargantuan Constrictors. Average of like 4 of them per casting, and against a sleeping opponent...ouch. Enemy captain walks in to find the king turned into pulp, assuming you don't benign transposition his remains through the sensor (swapping with some random summon that'll go away shortly) to properly dispose of him permanently (big fan of casting his ashen remains into a dozen different planes, and doing the disintegrating there as well, to make sure there's nothing left at home or at the demiplane).

taltamir
2009-09-29, 01:31 AM
As can dimensional anchor, a sword to the gut (or harmful spell) and similar things. I mean any major political figure without defenses would already be dead. The spell does seem a bit situational though.

exactly... remember how well teleporting worked for V? teleporting means putting yourself in harms way...

I love the benign transposition idea... or heck, just make it baleful transposition and teleport him to you... then disintegrate them... or sic the presummed large elemental on him... A naked level 20 fighter being awoken by being grappled by a CR 20 monster... not pretty.

EDIT: benign means you swap with a party member. baleful means you swap with an enemy... either seems to be a terrible idea. you want to swap a level 1 summon with the victim, not yourself...

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 01:56 AM
water is better then coke...

Yeah, but coke is cheaper.

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 01:58 AM
Useless spells:

Virtue, as a paladin 1 spell. Paladins get hardly any spells. To burn one of those precious spell slots on a spell that grants one temporary hitpoint is a horrible trap. Even the bard doesn't face the insult of weak cantrips masquerading as 1st level spells.

He can cast it out of a wand or scroll at low levels, though. Pretty cheaply, I might add.

taltamir
2009-09-29, 02:15 AM
He can cast it out of a wand or scroll at low levels, though. Pretty cheaply, I might add.

or he could cast cure instead.
are you suggesting using it as a very low level buff pre combat from a wand? too expensive to be worth it

Saph
2009-09-29, 04:26 AM
Just from the Wiz/Sorc core choices, here would be my list.

0-level

Resistance - wow, spend a standard action to give someone a 5% extra chance of passing a save . . . for 1 minute. Pass.
Flare - Give a creature a 5% chance of missing their attacks. For 1 minute. Unless they make their Fort save. Or have SR. Or are sightless. Pass.
1st-level

Hold Portal - Okay, it holds a door shut, that's useful. Except wait, it only lasts for a few minutes? And you can still kick the door down with only +5 to the DC? Truly, Vaarsuvius was having an off-day when he scribed this one.
Erase - It lets you get rid of magical writing, like explosive runes or a glyph of warding. Except you have to be touching the writing for it to work. And pass a DC 15 CL check. And if you roll a 1 or 2, it goes off anyway. Of all the ways of removing a magic trap, this is probably the worst.
2nd-level

Daze Monster - Sucks horribly, for reasons mentioned above.
Summon Monster II - Gets you roughly the same sort of creatures Druids can get with Summon Nature's Ally I. And if you just want a disposable creature, you'll be using Summon I. You have to be truly desperate for extra allies to use this spell.
3rd-level

Rage - Like a barbarian's rage . . . except suckier. Only half the bonuses, but all the drawbacks. Plus it only affects 1 target per three levels. Given the wealth of good 3rd-level spells, there is literally no good reason to take this one - you'd have to be nuts to choose this over Haste.
Summon Monster III - As above. I'll stop listing these now.
4th-level

Crushing Despair - Why would you ever hit a group of enemies with this when you could use Confusion?
Contagion - Wow, if the enemy fails a Fort save, they now have a disease. Quick everybody, let's retreat for a couple of weeks and wait for him to sicken to death!
5th-level

Mind Fog - If the targets fail a Will save, it gives them -10 to their Will saves. Except, if you can get them to fail a Will save, why not hit them with something that'll actually take them out of the fight? While this one isn't totally useless, it's really hard to make it effective.
Blight - Deals 1d6/level damage to a plant, and only a plant, and no more than one plant . . . oh, and it's Fort half, and guess which creature type are good at Fort saves? Plants. What on earth's the point of this spell?

Kurald Galain
2009-09-29, 04:37 AM
It's worth mentioning that the Fool's Gold spell from second edition, in its most powerful version, requires more actual gold in material components than the illusory gold it produces.

taltamir
2009-09-29, 04:40 AM
I agree with most of them Saph, but:

Erase - very useful for various RP and non combat purposes. Can be used to erase an arcane mark, a spell, or just regular text. And as for magical traps, if they are on something that you wish to protect from being damaged by the explosion, this beats having a summon trigger them or some such.

Contagion - unlike a normal disease, contagion immediately deals attribute damage without incubation period. The save DCs however are laughably low.

Caster chooses which disease:
Disease DC Damage
Blinding sickness 16 1d4 Str
Cackle fever 16 1d6 Wis
Filth fever 12 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con
Mindfire 12 1d4 Int
Red ache 15 1d6 Str
Shakes 13 1d8 Dex
Slimy doom 14 1d4 Con

Each time a victim takes 2 or more points of Strength damage from blinding sickness, he or she must make another Fortitude save (using the diseaseís save DC) or be permanently blinded.

Saph
2009-09-29, 04:46 AM
Erase I can buy that it's got social and utility value, but Contagion really is terrible.

Let's say you want to blind someone. You can cast the 4th-level spell Contagion, requiring them to pass a DC 21 (or whatever) Fort save and then another DC 16 Fort save and for you to roll 2+ on a d4 . . . or you can just cast Blindness, which is 2nd-level and only allows one save. The 2nd-level spell is more powerful than the 4th-level one.

Teron
2009-09-29, 05:08 AM
Contagion obviously isn't a combat spell. It's mainly an indiscriminate jerk spell; used with a bit of finesse, it can also soften up a community before an attack, distract and occupy good clerics, and so on. In short, it's a villain spell, and reasonably useful as such, but PCs won't have much use for it outside an evil campaign.

daggaz
2009-09-29, 05:20 AM
Im actually surprised to see resistance on this one. As said before, its a cantrip, so its free. But not only that, the point is you dont use it in battle. As soon as you are out of initiative, the action economy is non-existant, so who cares if it takes "one standard action" to cast?

Cast it on the rogue before he attempts to disarm some horrible trap for which he does not have an auto success and is likely to set it off..

Cast it on a hero before he quaffs a potion which has an unfortunate negative side effect.


Remember, its a level 0 spell, so at level one, you dont have access to batmans bat-belt, and +1 can really come in handy when your best save is maybe +5. Even at higher levels, I have always kept one resistance memorized for that one situation where a +1 could save your butt. You never know whats going to happen when you are out of your better spells..

Saph
2009-09-29, 05:26 AM
Even at higher levels, I have always kept one resistance memorized for that one situation where a +1 could save your butt. You never know whats going to happen when you are out of your better spells..

Slight problem - Resistance gives a resistance bonus.

Cloak of resistance? Also gives a resistance bonus. The two don't stack.

So any character who has a cloak of resistance, or equivalent - which at mid-levels and up is everyone - gets no benefit from that cantrip at all.

That's why Resistance is terrible. It doesn't stack with what's probably the single most common protective item in all of D&D.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-29, 05:28 AM
Im actually surprised to see resistance on this one. As said before, its a cantrip, so its free. But not only that, the point is you dont use it in battle. As soon as you are out of initiative, the action economy is non-existant, so who cares if it takes "one standard action" to cast?

Cast it on the rogue before he attempts to disarm some horrible trap for which he does not have an auto success.

Cast it on a hero before he quaffs a potion which has an unfortunate negative side effect.

Cast it on the dwarf so he has that tiny bit more of a chance to jump the pit and escape whatever incoming death is incoming.

Remember, its a level 0 spell, so at level one, you dont have access to batmans bat-belt, and +1 can really come in handy when your max rank is 4.
Even at higher levels, I have always kept one resistance memorized for that one situation where a +1 could save your butt. You never know whats going to happen when you are out of your better spells..

The Resistance line doesn't really come into its own until you get into the Spell Compendium versions. (which is the time players get cloaks of resistance, as well)

+1 to one save just isn't enough to justify any slot, even a level 0. It's not about action economy, it's about spell economy. You'll get more use from a detect magic, an open/close, a light spell.

You're marketing it as a utility, but it just doesn't pull its weight, even for that. At best, it provides a mild increase in success for a generally non-lethal effect at levels 1-4. That's the absolute "at best" scenario. And it only benefits you when you roll exactly what is needed to succeed. Win by more than one? You'd have won without it. Lose? It didn't help.

Spells that provide the all day boost give a reasonable chance to see it actually matter. The level 0? 95% of the time, won't. The other 5%? You'd have likely gotten through fine on the failure.

daggaz
2009-09-29, 05:29 AM
True, but not every game is played where the DM runs Magik-Mart. By 15th lvl, yeah, I would hope to god the spell is out of use, but at 7th? Maybe you only found 2 or 3 cloaks of resistance... who knows. Its still a useful spell, and costs you nothing if cast out of battle.

Especially when you look at some of the alternatives. Cuz yeah, daze blows hard chunks.

Saph
2009-09-29, 05:33 AM
Especially when you look at some of the alternatives.

Detect Magic. Open/Close. Dancing Lights. Prestidigitation. All are far better than Resistance. Wizard cantrips are actually amazingly useful. Even something like Ray of Frost will probably do more good at low levels than Resistance.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-29, 05:34 AM
True, but not every game is played where the DM runs Magik-Mart. By 15th lvl, yeah, I would hope to god the spell is out of use, but at 7th? Maybe you only found 2 or 3 cloaks of resistance... who knows. Its still a useful spell, and costs you nothing if cast out of battle.

Especially when you look at some of the alternatives. Cuz yeah, daze blows hard chunks.

The Resistance spells from Spell compendium basically act like cloaks of resistance. So no need for Magik Mart.

Daze is far more useful, at low levels. Force an enemy to save or lose a turn?

That's about the best possible effect you can get out of a level 0 spell. A shift in action economy for the party.

daggaz
2009-09-29, 05:36 AM
:smallredface: "typeo" on my part, I meant flare.. get them mixed up in my head..

Tyndmyr
2009-09-29, 08:33 AM
Detect Magic. Open/Close. Dancing Lights. Prestidigitation. All are far better than Resistance. Wizard cantrips are actually amazingly useful. Even something like Ray of Frost will probably do more good at low levels than Resistance.

If you have dancing lights, you don't need Light. Open/Close is situationally handy, but not frequently useful. Detect Magic...can't argue with that one. It's good. Prestidigitation is circumstantial, again. Ray of Frost is ok at level 1, if only because you have few spell slots(ditto acid splash), but they *very* quickly become worthless as you gain more spell slots. Frankly, you're usually better shooting a crossbow than using either of those spells, due to more damage and better range.

The biggest reason to take it at low/moderate levels is that cantrips slots are of very low value. You frankly won't use them all most days, or even close to it. Also, the good ones are readily duplicated with items. Detect magic is a frequent choice. Sure, stacking rules make it irrelevant later, but until then, resistance is fine.

Think of it this way. Your rogue finds a trap with a save. Odds are decent that it's not the only trap, and hey, disarming might fail catastrophically anyhow. DCs and bonuses are both low...say he has a +5 reflex, and the DC is 10...you made it 20% less likely that he will fail.

Saph
2009-09-29, 08:39 AM
Think of it this way. Your rogue finds a trap with a save. Odds are decent that it's not the only trap, and hey, disarming might fail catastrophically anyhow.

That's what Open/Close is for. :) A large fraction of traps are on doors, chests, etc. After the rogue detects the trap and decides that it's dangerous, you stand well back and cast your spell.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-29, 08:45 AM
Ah, see we normally get far, far too many traps for that to be a realistic approach. You just slap the resistance on the rogue, and have him disarm as many as possible before it wears off. It helps if you find and leave traps until you have a good number at once. Sometimes possible, sometimes not.

I agree that it's weak, just not really a trap. After all, you learn it for free, and the slots are pretty unimportant.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-29, 08:55 AM
Ah, see we normally get far, far too many traps for that to be a realistic approach. You just slap the resistance on the rogue, and have him disarm as many as possible before it wears off. It helps if you find and leave traps until you have a good number at once.

The thing is that even if there are so many traps around, statistically, casting Open on one door or chest is (much) more likely to be of benefit than giving the rogue +1 to his saves. The resistance spell only makes a difference in one out of every twenty saving throws; how many saves exactly do you expect the rogue to make in one minute?

taltamir
2009-09-29, 08:56 AM
Erase I can buy that it's got social and utility value, but Contagion really is terrible.

Let's say you want to blind someone. You can cast the 4th-level spell Contagion, requiring them to pass a DC 21 (or whatever) Fort save and then another DC 16 Fort save and for you to roll 2+ on a d4 . . . or you can just cast Blindness, which is 2nd-level and only allows one save. The 2nd-level spell is more powerful than the 4th-level one.

well, yes... as I mentioned, horrible saves..
but it is not a case of "cast and come back a few weeks later"...


If you have dancing lights, you don't need Light. Open/Close is situationally handy, but not frequently useful. Detect Magic...can't argue with that one. It's good. Prestidigitation is circumstantial, again. Ray of Frost is ok at level 1, if only because you have few spell slots(ditto acid splash), but they *very* quickly become worthless as you gain more spell slots. Frankly, you're usually better shooting a crossbow than using either of those spells, due to more damage and better range.

The biggest reason to take it at low/moderate levels is that cantrips slots are of very low value. You frankly won't use them all most days, or even close to it. Also, the good ones are readily duplicated with items. Detect magic is a frequent choice. Sure, stacking rules make it irrelevant later, but until then, resistance is fine.

Think of it this way. Your rogue finds a trap with a save. Odds are decent that it's not the only trap, and hey, disarming might fail catastrophically anyhow. DCs and bonuses are both low...say he has a +5 reflex, and the DC is 10...you made it 20% less likely that he will fail.

Prestidigitation is the single most used spell in the game I am currently playing.. multiple trips to sewer means using it to clean... cleaned wet blood off of a book (had to do more work to get the stuff that already soaked in), cleaned ourselves after battles from the guts and grime so we don't look suspecious, etc... You can't have enough cleans :)

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-29, 09:09 AM
If you have dancing lights, you don't need Light. Open/Close is situationally handy, but not frequently useful. Detect Magic...can't argue with that one. It's good. Prestidigitation is circumstantial, again. Ray of Frost is ok at level 1, if only because you have few spell slots(ditto acid splash), but they *very* quickly become worthless as you gain more spell slots. Frankly, you're usually better shooting a crossbow than using either of those spells, due to more damage and better range.

The biggest reason to take it at low/moderate levels is that cantrips slots are of very low value. You frankly won't use them all most days, or even close to it. Also, the good ones are readily duplicated with items. Detect magic is a frequent choice. Sure, stacking rules make it irrelevant later, but until then, resistance is fine.

Think of it this way. Your rogue finds a trap with a save. Odds are decent that it's not the only trap, and hey, disarming might fail catastrophically anyhow. DCs and bonuses are both low...say he has a +5 reflex, and the DC is 10...you made it 20% less likely that he will fail.

True. He is 20% less likely to fail.
It's still 95% likely that the spell will be of no use.

If the die roll comes up anything other than a 4? Then resistance didn't grant you a success or failure. You'd have succeeded or failed on your own. (a 3 or less will fail with or without the spell. A 5 or higher will pass with or without the spell. Only a roll of 4 results in a success or failure based on the spell. Odds of rolling that 4? 5%.)

This spell is useful 5% of the time, for 1 minute. Assuming you make one saving throw every round for that minute, the spell has about a 40.1% chance of turning at least one failure into a success. the other 59.9% ? The spell did absolutely nothing for you.

And that's assuming 10 saves in 10 rounds. More realistically is 5 saves (22.6% chance of being useful, 77.4% chance of doing nothing).

Now, if I have to cast a spell 4 times before it has any impact at all? That's not what I'd consider useful.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-29, 09:10 AM
Three or four, most likely. Hmm, that's a good point.

Eh, move it to the trap pile.

Light/Dancing lights? I can't see a reason to prepare both of them...and dancing lights seems more flexible. Is it reasonable to dump light?

Endure Elements is pretty weak. I guess it's potentially useful, though.

I would also like to submit Hypnotism. Fascinate several creatures for 2d4 rounds. Sounds ok...but you have much better save or lose spells, including sleep and grease at that level. Worse, they need to both see and hear you to be affected, and if it's in combat, they get a +2 to their save.

Ventriloquism. Trying to think of a use for this that isn't replicated by Ghost Sound that's actually reasonable is...difficult.

Tounges. It's like Comprehend Languages, except higher level, and doesn't work for reading. The *only* advantage is that you can cast it on another person. How often does it matter if you or another person in the party is doing the talking? Especially if the caster is a sorc, and thus, already the party face.

Thespianus
2009-09-29, 09:14 AM
Detect Magic. Open/Close. Dancing Lights. Prestidigitation. All are far better than Resistance. Wizard cantrips are actually amazingly useful. Even something like Ray of Frost will probably do more good at low levels than Resistance.

Acid Splash for your Arcane Rogue is my favorite cantrip. 1D3 of damage with no save and no SR, with a ranged attack roll? Hell yes!

With Craven and Hunter's Eye (with the Unseen Seer PrC), it's just plain wonderful. At level 8, I'm hitting Greased or Glitterdusted monsters with 1D3+6D6+8 from a safe distance, basically for free.

Granted, a wand of 50 Acid Splashes cost 375 GP or so, which makes it just ridiculously sweet to at least mid-levels.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-29, 09:20 AM
I think there was a list of spells by school over on Gleemax that gave really bad ones a turkey smiley. The Conception The upgrade broke it though (still readable if you can ignore the :turkey: formating appearing instead of smilieys.

The GOD handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0) was rescued from Gleemax's Explosion.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-29, 09:23 AM
Tongues. It's like Comprehend Languages, except higher level, and doesn't work for reading. The *only* advantage is that you can cast it on another person. How often does it matter if you or another person in the party is doing the talking? Especially if the caster is a sorc, and thus, already the party face.

Comprehend Languages is quite useful for understanding what's being said.
It's useless for speaking it back. It just lets you read and hear. Not speak or write.

Tongues, however, lets you understand spoken language and talk back. Speaking back is more than situationally useful.

Rhiannon87
2009-09-29, 10:00 AM
5th-level
Mind Fog - If the targets fail a Will save, it gives them -10 to their Will saves. Except, if you can get them to fail a Will save, why not hit them with something that'll actually take them out of the fight? While this one isn't totally useless, it's really hard to make it effective.


Eh, I've been in situations where Mind Fog has really screwed up a party. Mind Fog followed by enchantment spells, like dominate? Really sucks. My character almost died when her rogue boyfriend got mind fogged then dominated by a vampire, then he got to make a full attack against her. He got sneak attack on two of the three hits because he's an invisible blade and he can feint as a free action and she failed her sense motive checks. She went from max HP to the mid-teens thanks to 1d4+8d6+3 twice.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-29, 10:02 AM
Eh, I've been in situations where Mind Fog has really screwed up a party. Mind Fog followed by enchantment spells, like dominate? Really sucks.
The point is that mind fog + dominate takes two turns to pull off and requires two saves (albeit one at a huge penalty) whereas regular dominate takes only one turn to pull off and requires only one save. It's the dominate that's nasty, not the mind fog.

technophile
2009-09-29, 10:17 AM
Eh, I've been in situations where Mind Fog has really screwed up a party. Mind Fog followed by enchantment spells, like dominate? Really sucks. My character almost died when her rogue boyfriend got mind fogged then dominated by a vampire.
Except if he failed the Will save vs. Mind Fog, he'd have failed it against Dominate too...

That said, I could see it making sense if you had a lot of spells/abilities that gave Will saves; you could spam Mind Fog until it succeeds, then proceed with your other spells, which are now more likely to succeed. Of course, given that most Will saves are save-or-lose anyway, just spamming the actual spells until you fail one is probably enough.

quick_comment
2009-09-29, 10:27 AM
Well, for starters, you can simply ignore the entire Evocation school, other than Contigency and Defenstrating Sphere. :smallwink:

Not true. Evocation has good spells, its just that it has less of them than conjuration.

Rhiannon87
2009-09-29, 10:33 AM
The point is that mind fog + dominate takes two turns to pull off and requires two saves (albeit one at a huge penalty) whereas regular dominate takes only one turn to pull off and requires only one save. It's the dominate that's nasty, not the mind fog.

The vampire cast Mind Fog before he was in range, and then while we were all busy fighting an undead giant he waltzed in and dominated the rogue.

Luckily our cleric was able to cast magic circle against evil on said rogue before a) the rogue could attack again and b) the cleric got torn into little bitty pieces by the giant.

Mind Fog affects multiple targets as well, and can be cast at a relatively decent distance. It's a good covering-your-bases spell, imo; you cast it in the surprise round, hit several people with it, and the odds are at least one of them is going to fail their save. Then you hit the failed-save people with dominate or whatever. If you are, for some unknown reason, a lone caster, it's a terrible spell. But if you've got the drop on enemies and you have big hulking brutes to distract the enemies while you're casting your will-save-or-suck spells in the first round, it can be quite useful.

Indon
2009-09-29, 10:49 AM
The point is that mind fog + dominate takes two turns to pull off and requires two saves (albeit one at a huge penalty) whereas regular dominate takes only one turn to pull off and requires only one save. It's the dominate that's nasty, not the mind fog.

The fog lasts for 30 minutes. You can cast the spell well before combat and still cast a Will Save spell during the surprise round for an ambush.

Edit: Also, it affects multiple targets with its' potent save penalty.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-29, 11:00 AM
Comprehend Languages is quite useful for understanding what's being said.
It's useless for speaking it back. It just lets you read and hear. Not speak or write.

Tongues, however, lets you understand spoken language and talk back. Speaking back is more than situationally useful.

If you understand a language, then could you not speak it back, albeit in a limited form, unless your physiology prevents it somehow? After all, you're comprehending what they say, not merely having it translated into a language you understand.

Likewise, if you can look at a written language in a book, and understand what it's saying, you should be able to write it, at least to a reasonable degree.

Draco Ignifer
2009-09-29, 11:19 AM
I've always viewed comprehend language as, if not magical translation, then magically allowing you to understand what's being said to you at the time. It definitely doesn't give you an innate knowledge of all languages. If they say a phrase, you might be able to repeat it back to them, but even slightly complex uses of language would be beyond your capabilities.

jiriku
2009-09-29, 11:24 AM
Comprehend languages explicitly does not grant the ability to speak or write the language you're comprehending. I guess this is discount-bin magic.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-29, 11:26 AM
Gotcha. Upgraded to "situationally useful", then.

Still wouldn't reccomend it as a very high priority pick, of course.

Is someone going to make a master list of all these?

Jergmo
2009-09-29, 11:35 AM
The tome of Necromancy listed Ghoul Gauntlet as a trap, since it shares a control pool with Animate Dead, and creating ghouls is not particularly more effective than creating simple skeletons or zombies. It is also, of course, a sixth level spell with a rather poor dps.

But it doesn't really look all that bad, and ghouls aren't that much bad, for two HD they are better than zombies really. It's not like the LA factors into the control pool.

Plus no material component.

Now you want a trap? I will give you a trap. Player Handbook, page 231. Right bellow Firestorm.

:smalltongue:

My Necromancer in a villain campaign had his undead minions beat on a number of juvenile black dragons, then used Ghoul Gauntlet on them. It certainly isn't useless. I want to get an adult one via Ray of Enfeeblement + Curse + Contagion for Con drain, but I haven't found one yet. :smallannoyed:

Overpowered Villain Man needs an undead dragon mount!

Jergmo
2009-09-29, 11:38 AM
Oh....summon monster 1. All summons have a range of one round per caster level, and take a full round to cast. In short, at level one, summon monster 1 is pretty much worthless. By the time it actually is vaguely worth casting, you could have summon monster two, which is just better in every way.

You're mostly right, though the cleric in my players party did make it useful once. She decided to make her character puny in the ways of combat and was just using a light crossbow, but she used Summon Monster I to summon a Giant Celestial Fire Beetle and it managed to critically hit and kill an enemy cleric. This was at level 1.

Jergmo
2009-09-29, 11:40 AM
Fine, I'll leave cantrips out. How about daze monster then? The monster loses a single action but, oh wait, you just did too. But maybe the monster is strong enough so that, oh wait, 6 HD cap.

Fire trap is only 2nd level for druids, and often easier to trigger than explosive runes. But, yes, it's a trap :smallbiggrin:.

Summon monster I is famous for being the wizard's trapfinder extraordinaire.

Are you kidding? At low levels, have the wizard cast Daze on an ogre. One less chance to smash the fighter's head in.

ericgrau
2009-09-29, 11:54 AM
Gonna do my best to find holes in Saph's list; I don't actually think those spells are *usually* useful.

Flare: High level drow
Hold Portal: If the door wasn't locked before, now it is and the +5 is just icing. But it's still limited to things like fleeing b/c of the short duration.
Contagion: Glyph of warding + contagion = enemies softened for as long as they're in the dungeon. EDIT: Oh, wait, bestow curse is cleric 3. Contagion fails. Unless they stay overnight in the dungeon. Oh, wait, then they can prepare remove disease.

The case has already been made for mind fog and erase, but I'm not sure about them. Higher level summon monsters might have more utillity forms and they might be worth casting before the combat begins. For the other spells I found no way to salvage them.

Are you kidding? At low levels, have the wizard cast Daze on an ogre. One less chance to smash the fighter's head in.

I shall clarify, *again*, that I said daze monster, not daze. It's a 2nd level spell with a 6 HD cap. If you're extremely lucky you might neutralize a CR 5 creature at caster level 3, but more likely you'll be wasting both your own action and that of an equally (or less) powerful monster, not a stronger one. And your highest level spell slot. So 99% of the time the spell is a net loss. It blows chunks. Btw regular daze doesn't work on ogres anyway. You want a 4 HD humanoid.

Jergmo
2009-09-29, 11:57 AM
Contagion - Wow, if the enemy fails a Fort save, they now have a disease. Quick everybody, let's retreat for a couple of weeks and wait for him to sicken to death!

Correct me if I read it wrong, but Contagion immediately does ability damage from disease, and then additional damage is done every minute thereafter. The secondary damage is easy to resist, but the additional isn't so much.


I shall clarify, *again*, that I said daze monster, not daze. It's a 2nd level spell with a 6 HD cap. If you're extremely lucky you might neutralize a CR 5 creature at caster level 3, but more likely you'll be wasting both your own action and that of an equally (or less) powerful monster, not a stronger one. And your highest level spell slot. So 99% of the time the spell is a net loss. It blows chunks. Btw regular daze doesn't work on ogres anyway. You want a 4 HD humanoid.

Maybe I'm the only one who uses non-monster enemies, here, but you could use Daze Monster on a level 6 fighter or something.

ericgrau
2009-09-29, 12:05 PM
Correct me if I read it wrong, but Contagion immediately does ability damage from disease, and then additional damage is done every minute thereafter. The secondary damage is easy to resist, but the additional isn't so much.

Every day. And you can heal 1 or 2 points per day too, even while the disease is in effect.



Maybe I'm the only one who uses non-monster enemies, here, but you could use Daze Monster on a level 6 fighter or something.
He's weaker than a level 6 character since he gets NPC wealth, and these circumstances - with exactly the right levels for both wizard and NPC - are even rarer.

Woot Spitum
2009-09-29, 12:07 PM
With all the debate comparing Comprehend Languages and Tongues, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Speak With Plants. Seriously, what can a stationary organism that cannot see, hear, smell, touch, or taste tell you?

EDIT:Adding insult to injury, Treants, the one plant creature worth talking to, speak common.:smallamused:

tyckspoon
2009-09-29, 12:10 PM
Correct me if I read it wrong, but Contagion immediately does ability damage from disease, and then additional damage is done every minute thereafter. The secondary damage is easy to resist, but the additional isn't so much.


You're wrong. :smallbiggrin: Contagion only skips the initial incubation; after that the disease works as normal, and diseases only go off once a day. You're thinkig of poisons, perhaps.

Jergmo
2009-09-29, 12:10 PM
With all the debate comparing Comprehend Languages and Tongues, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Speak With Plants. Seriously, what can a stationary organism that cannot see, hear, smell, touch, or taste tell you?

Don't you see? The trees communicate in a world-wide network. :durkon:

ericgrau
2009-09-29, 12:11 PM
With all the debate comparing Comprehend Languages and Tongues, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Speak With Plants. Seriously, what can a stationary organism that cannot see, hear, smell, touch, or taste tell you?

PC: Sir plant, has anything passed through here.
Plant: Yeah, he stepped on me and crushed me badly <cough> <cough>
PC: Okay thank you.
Plant: Please get the bastard for me, okay?
PC: Umm, okay. Actually we need to warn him about an ambush.
Plant: What?! I'm damaged. Look at me! Look at meeeee!!
PC: ...

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 12:23 PM
The GOD handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0) was rescued from Gleemax's Explosion.

Missing the rating smileys.

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 12:41 PM
The only use I've ever seen resistance get is when someone gets poisoned, and they have to make their second save, at the very low levels.


or he could cast cure instead.
are you suggesting using it as a very low level buff pre combat from a wand? too expensive to be worth it

375 gp isn't that much, and if they found a partly filled wand in a treasure horde, even better.

jiriku
2009-09-29, 01:28 PM
My Necromancer in a villain campaign had his undead minions beat on a number of juvenile black dragons, then used Ghoul Gauntlet on them. It certainly isn't useless. I want to get an adult one via Ray of Enfeeblement + Curse + Contagion for Con drain, but I haven't found one yet. :smallannoyed:

Overpowered Villain Man needs an undead dragon mount!

That pwns. When you find the adult, use an empowered or maximized shivering touch, a necromancy spell from Frostburn. It will render the dragon helpless, then you can cast ghoul gauntlet to your heart's content.

Akal Saris
2009-09-29, 01:57 PM
I think the lower level summon monster spells are pretty poor choices unless you specialize in them with Augment Summoning and Rapid Summoning and the like, at which point they're fine. So for builds that intend to conjure stuff they're good, which is more than you can really say for Erase.

In PF, SM I is actually very good, since conjurers get extra duration to SM spells, there's a feat to reduce the casting time in 1 of the PF splatbooks, and the riding dog from SM II got bumped down to SM I.

CheshireCatAW
2009-09-29, 02:15 PM
The only use I've ever seen resistance get is when someone gets poisoned, and they have to make their second save, at the very low levels.



375 gp isn't that much, and if they found a partly filled wand in a treasure horde, even better.

Wouldn't it be better to find a wand of cure light? For twice the price you're almost guaranteed to get more than twice the mileage.