dragons have sorcerer levels... protection from shivering touch?

[taltamir]

there are some methods planned for easily taking down dragons... but dragons supposedly have sorcerer levels naturally... which spells could they use to render themselves immune to each "attack plan"?

[KellKheraptis]

there are some methods planned for easily taking down dragons... but dragons supposedly have sorcerer levels naturally... which spells could they use to render themselves immune to each "attack plan"?

Scintillating Scales, Ray Reversal, and Shroud of Undeath (I think that's the spell that gives you most of the undead traits, including immunity to crits and ability damage/drain) go a long way towards making life difficult for casters' usual tricks. Throw on the Heart Of series for Freedom of Movement of sorts, assuming that particular spell isn't available, and you're done. Also, all 4 Primal series spells grants some nice bonuses and improved uncanny dodge.

[jiriku]

Scintillating scales. It's second level, and turns the dragon's natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus, dramatically increasing touch AC. This protects from shivering touch and from tactics revolving around summoning large numbers of ability-draining incorporeal undead.

Wingbind or dispel magic against enemy flyers is good, although the dragon would need to take Practiced Spellcaster once or twice in order to have a chance at dispelling the spells of a CR-appropriate PC spellcaster.

For dragons with bolt-type breath weapons, you'd be surprised how well flyby attack+wingover+breath weapon works as a defense. If the dragon ends its turn airborne and at least 100 feet from any enemy, most melee characters can't get close enough to attack it, and spellcasters can't hit it with any spell with a range less than Medium. If it also ends its turn in a source of concealment, like a cloud bank or copse of trees, it's well-protected from most archery and long-range targeted spells. Plus, if one idiot (I'm looking at you flying monk) with a high movement rate pursues while the rest of the party can't keep up, the dragon is free to mutilate that fool on its next action while everyone else is double-moving trying to get into range.

Anticipate teleportation is a useful spell, as dragons generally don't rely on teleportation and players may try to use tactical teleportation to overcome the dragon's maneuverability advantage.

The classic mistake I see most DMs make with dragons is having them fight on the ground or in a confined space. The best environment for a dragon to fight in is outdoors, and next best is in a VAST chamber at least the size of a football stadium. A cornered dragon is a dead dragon. (Be sure to have an appropriate battle map prepared so that everyone can maneuver in this large space without running off the edge of the map.)

[Myrmex]

If you really need to boost the dragon's spellcasting to keep up with the party wizard, apply the Spellhoarding template and the Loredrake template.

Spellhoarding is a CR +0 template, and turns the sorcerer casting of the dragon into wizard casting, which means he casts spells a level higher, and has access to far more "lol, my dragon pwns ur interweb wizard" spells. This template is from Dragon.

Loredrake downgrades his HD to d10s (yawn), but increases his sorcerer casting by +2, with no CR adjustment. This template is from Dragons of Eberron.

Spellhoarding also lets the dragon ready an action to counter spells, and if he succeeds on the counter spell, he gains the spell known. This is for ANY spell, not just wizard spells! This means you can give your dragon access to things like Greater Consumptive Field, which will give him a CL as high as you want. Combine with Holy Word, Dictum, Blaspheme, and/or Word of Chaos to wtfbbq the party.

The Blood Wind spell (an evocation) allows the dragon to make his natural attacks at short range, which means that in the confines of his cavern, there is no safe anywhere for anyone, since he can level a very brutal full attack on them. Combine with improve natural attack, power attack, rapid strike, and improved rapid strike, and he should have no problem reducing the whole party into a gore fountain in a single round.

[edit]
Dragons are incredibly potent enemies, so long as you don't have your DM hat on inside out.

[Salt_Crow]

Some of the more powerful dragons can learn cleric spells and specific domain spells as their choice for sorcerer's spell list. So they could have Death Ward on to protect themselves from the ability damage I guess. Also, iirc, Silver and White dragons are naturally immune to Shivering Touch as it does not work on creatures with cold subtype.

[Seatbelt]

So how do you make those encounters fun? "The dragon flys by you, breaths, and flys away" gets extremely frustrating after a while.

I've done that and I've had it done to me. I usually have some way to deal with it a little, but it seems that it ruins the enjoyment of some players.

[taltamir]

very cool, this makes dragons an actual credible threat...
speaking of, where do i find the Spellhoarding template?

[Salt_Crow]

So how do you make those encounters fun? "The dragon flys by you, breaths, and flys away" gets extremely frustrating after a while.

I've done that and I've had it done to me. I usually have some way to deal with it a little, but it seems that it ruins the enjoyment of some players.

If the players aren't having fun, then "don't-do-it" approach worked the best for me. Sometimes just letting the players beat the hell out of a creature big and mighty as a dragon works quite well for the amusement value. If you really want to make a recurring villain out of the dragon, let it use a teleport scroll or something. A little bit of DM-fiat can go a long way to ensure that people are having fun.

Edit: Oh, and in terms of tactics, let the players think for themselves: run away if the dragon is encountered in a wide open space, and think of ways to lure it into a more confined space (i.e. its lair). Running away is always fun :)

[Myrmex]

very cool, this makes dragons an actual credible threat...
speaking of, where do i find the Spellhoarding template?

crystalkeep.com has an index of a bunch of templates. Check there. Be aware that the index is not always right (voidmind is listed as a +1 LA template instead of +3 or +4, for instance), nor is the information always complete. Great starting place, though.

[KellKheraptis]

So how do you make those encounters fun? "The dragon flys by you, breaths, and flys away" gets extremely frustrating after a while.

I've done that and I've had it done to me. I usually have some way to deal with it a little, but it seems that it ruins the enjoyment of some players.

It might just be me, being a "High Level Campaigns" DM from 2nd Ed and an Epic Level DM from 3rd, but fighting a dragon is not meant to be a cakewalk. My players in 2nd Ed (including level 22-25 characters of all types, and all types of magic) were rightfully afraid when they had to face an ancient wyrm in battle, because they knew that of all the enemies I could throw at them, I wouldn't pull any punches with the dragons. They are the epitome of mythical power : hell in melee, capable spellcasters, and long-lived enough to know every dirty trick in the book, along with a few books on the subject they wrote themselves. If players can't deal with a strafe dragon, they have no business fighting it, and especially not on it's ideal turf.

[taltamir]

So how do you make those encounters fun? "The dragon flys by you, breaths, and flys away" gets extremely frustrating after a while.

If I wanted to godmode while slaying one bad AI monster after another to grind loot and levels I'd play a CRPG. It has better graphics too.

It is a freaking DRAGON, it shouldn't be a cakewalk. And there is no fun in butchering a bad AI mob.

[jiriku]

So how do you make those encounters fun? "The dragon flys by you, breaths, and flys away" gets extremely frustrating after a while.

I've done that and I've had it done to me. I usually have some way to deal with it a little, but it seems that it ruins the enjoyment of some players.

Encounter 1: swordsage says "I'm going to teleport up into the air with shadow blink, teleport again to right over the dragon's head with shadow stride, then hit him with swooping dragon strike!" Swordsage does this. Swordsage gets a critical hit. Dragon dies. Swordsage sustains falling damage but does not care, because He Is Awesome Now.

Encounter 2: Dragon gets off two good flyby strafes. By round three, players adapt and ready actions to cast mass resist energy and fire ranged attacks at the dragon when it approaches for its flyby attack. Dragon takes more damage than it deals and is forced to switch tactics.

I understand your concern, Seatbelt: it's the DM's job to create fun, enjoyable encounters, and if a tactic turns a battle into a tedious experience, the DM needs to do something to shake things up and keep the good times rolling. My personal experience has been that when I create a difficult tactical situation, Players Always Find A Way.

If they hadn't come up with any good ideas, I probably would have suggested to them OOC that since they were getting their butts handed to them, they should embrace the better part of valor and retreat, prep some different spells, and come up with an effective counter-tactic.

[PhoenixRivers]

Many dragons also cast cleric spells as arcane. Try Sheltered Vitality for surprising those that try to Shivering Touch your dragons.

[Uin]

Encounter 1: swordsage says "I'm going to teleport up into the air with shadow blink, teleport again to right over the dragon's head with shadow stride, then hit him with swooping dragon strike!" Swordsage does this. Swordsage gets a critical hit. Dragon dies. Swordsage sustains falling damage but does not care, because He Is Awesome Now.

Encounter 2: Dragon gets off two good flyby strafes. By round three, players adapt and ready actions to cast mass resist energy and fire ranged attacks at the dragon when it approaches for its flyby attack. Dragon takes more damage than it deals and is forced to switch tactics.

I understand your concern, Seatbelt: it's the DM's job to create fun, enjoyable encounters, and if a tactic turns a battle into a tedious experience, the DM needs to do something to shake things up and keep the good times rolling. My personal experience has been that when I create a difficult tactical situation, Players Always Find A Way.Sometimes I hate being the DM that knows how to work the d20 system, I can't be pleased by simply going up and whacking things any more. Last night was:

Half-Fey Young Green Dragon vs Level 6 Party

If the Dragon had not rolled a natural 1 initiative and I had not told the druid to cast sleet storm and entangle to prevent fly-by tactics they would have all been a thin red mist in the air. I've come to the conclusion that hardly any players have a level of savvy to pull off the above tricks. One of the characters that died is re-rolling a Whisper Gnome Swordsage (we have a dragonwrought kobald too, I let the players use most things but they do not use them well) and seems really keen. Maybe it'll spur him on to greater things.

[PhoenixRivers]

At level 6? Slow would work just as well, if the party arcanist had it. Dragons ain't that hot on maneuverability. Most, especially most young ones, can't hover. If they lose Move + standard, they have to choose between moving and attacking. If they don't keep moving in midair, they crash, per flying maneuverability rules.

The most a slowed dragon could likely do? Fear presence, if it had it.

If we're including outside of core, Ray of dizziness, even better.

Clerics/druids have Downdraft, that'll take most dragons close enough to breathe all the way to the ground.

This isn't even counting the summon monster spells that give you flyers.

[Uin]

At level 6? Slow would work just as well, if the party arcanist had it. Dragons ain't that hot on maneuverability. Most, especially most young ones, can't hover. If they lose Move + standard, they have to choose between moving and attacking. If they don't keep moving in midair, they crash, per flying maneuverability rules.

The most a slowed dragon could likely do? Fear presence, if it had it.

If we're including outside of core, Ray of dizziness, even better.

Clerics/druids have Downdraft, that'll take most dragons close enough to breathe all the way to the ground.

This isn't even counting the summon monster spells that give you flyers.

I think you overestimate my players. Also, I jigged the dragons feats too.

[Eldariel]

The principal issue with defensive Dragon casting is that their caster level sucks (on their natural CR) making them extremely vulnerable to Dispel Magic followed by whatever you were trying to protect them from.

You should definitely at least give the Dragon Practiced Spellcaster, and probably Ring of Enduring Arcana [CM] too. Those two together should enable the Dragon to withstand a Dispel Magic or two.

[PhoenixRivers]

The principal issue with defensive Dragon casting is that their caster level sucks (on their natural CR) making them extremely vulnerable to Dispel Magic followed by whatever you were trying to protect them from.

You should definitely at least give the Dragon Practiced Spellcaster, and probably Ring of Enduring Arcana [CM] too. Those two together should enable the Dragon to withstand a Dispel Magic or two.

+1. There are other ways to do it, as well. Those are the easy ones, however. I believe the Ring of Spell Battle works at higher levels, and a ring of counterspells with Dispel Magic is pretty solid.

All of this is true until the dragon hits CL 13, which means it's able to throw an AMF up. That makes fights a bit more challenging, especially when you don't know until after the dragon closes.

[The_Snark]

Friendly Fire (Exemplars of Evil) is a great spell for a dragon to have. It can be used either as a buff to redirect ranged attacks and ranged touch attacks for 1 round/level... or it can be used as an immediate action to redirect any one ranged (touch) attack. Very nasty surprise for any wizard who tries to go dragon-hunting with Reach Spell and Shivering Touch, and it's a solid defensive spell even if your players are nice enough to stay away from that. Particularly fun with flying monsters

If you really want to push your players, give the dragon Blood Wind and Wraithstrike as well. If they're within 100 feet of the dragon it can make a full attack against them; if they're foolish enough to close to melee range, it can inflict incredible damage with Wraithstrike and Power Attack. And if they don't, they have to deal with its Friendly Fire spell reflecting some of their ranged attacks.

[Kaiyanwang]

Friendly Fire (Exemplars of Evil) is a great spell for a dragon to have. It can be used either as a buff to redirect ranged attacks and ranged touch attacks for 1 round/level... or it can be used as an immediate action to redirect any one ranged (touch) attack. Very nasty surprise for any wizard who tries to go dragon-hunting with Reach.

Didn't knew that. Wow. Thank You!

[PhoenixRivers]

Other good uses for dragon spells are the Metabreath spells. A dragon's Breath weapon DC scales much faster than its caster level DC. These spells use the latter, and tack it on to an effect which can hit multiple party members, as is.

Even spells such as Fog Cloud and Obscuring Mist can be good (especially when widened), as the dragon can blindsense through it, and still hit with breath weapons.

Low visibility environments always help a dragon. Between Low light (that's better than most players can get), Darkvision at a respectable level, and blindsense that can reach out to very good levels, dragons have a solid sensory suite. Compound that with AoE attacks, and you can have a fight where PC range combat is all but shut down, and the dragon can plug right away with breath weapons.


Didn't knew that. Wow. Thank You!
The weakness to this is attacks which catch the dragon flat-footed (as in an invisible mage), or ones that outright dispel. A dragon can have a defense to some degree, but if a mage is focused on dispelling, a dragon will be more or less helpless to it.

[Salt_Crow]

The weakness to this is attacks which catch the dragon flat-footed (as in an invisible mage), or ones that outright dispel. A dragon can have a defense to some degree, but if a mage is focused on dispelling, a dragon will be more or less helpless to it.

That's what Blindsense is there for! Knowing whether a pesky mage might be crawling around his place or not.

[PhoenixRivers]

That's what Blindsense is there for! Knowing whether a pesky mage might be crawling around his place or not.

Blindsense doesn't protect versus everything. They still have total concealment, and you're still flat-footed against them.

[Kaiyanwang]

The weakness to this is attacks which catch the dragon flat-footed (as in an invisible mage), or ones that outright dispel. A dragon can have a defense to some degree, but if a mage is focused on dispelling, a dragon will be more or less helpless to it.

Of course, but sum this to other things and the big D will become even nastier.

You know, you can even have a Red with foresight, after a while..

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Awaken Spell Resistance: the dragon's SR is now equal to its HD or its previous SR+2. Can be taken multiple times, effects stack. And most dragons have lots of HD.


Yeah, it's a feat. But a really, really useful feat. Ever seen a CR 20ish dragon with a SR of 50?

[Dixieboy]

The weakness to this is attacks which catch the dragon flat-footed (as in an invisible mage), or ones that outright dispel. A dragon can have a defense to some degree, but if a mage is focused on dispelling, a dragon will be more or less helpless to it.

Not really seeing as the main thing the wizard did was spend a turn to piss of a dragon.

Now it's said dragons turn.

[Eldariel]

Awaken Spell Resistance: the dragon's SR is now equal to its HD or its previous SR+2. Can be taken multiple times, effects stack. And most dragons have lots of HD.


Yeah, it's a feat. But a really, really useful feat. Ever seen a CR 20ish dragon with a SR of 50?

This is especially useful on higher levels; Dragon HD scales faster than their CR so each age increase makes the feat relatively more efficient. Adult Red gets mere SR 22 at CR 15; not very amazing, but a Great Wyrm Red gets SR 40 at CR 26, much more useful (well, outside the fact that it's epic and yeah...).

Of course, taking it multiple times can help, but given the amount of other feats a Dragon wants (and it prolly switches to epic feats post-20), I've found it hard to find room for more than a couple of Awakens.


Not really seeing as the main thing the wizard did was spend a turn to piss of a dragon.

Now it's said dragons turn.

Quicken Spell... Also, the Wizard generally has party while the Dragon...more rarely. Action Advantage truly is the bane of the Dragon here. Druid Dispels, Cleric Assay Resistances & Limited Wishes the SR down and the Wizard delivers the fatal Shivering Touch.

[PhoenixRivers]

Not really seeing as the main thing the wizard did was spend a turn to piss of a dragon.

Now it's said dragons turn.

Nah, now it's the cleric's turn, then the beatstick, then the skillmonkey. Then the dragon.

And the dragon has to contend with wizard spell defenses, which are not as easily dispelled by the dragon.

Alternately, the cleric can dispel, leaving the dragon open to magical attack by the wizard.

I mean really, if the goal is to kill it, at some point, you kinda gotta piss it off a bit.

[Tokiko Mima]

Don't forget to effectively use a Dragons breath weapon, especially with Meta-Breath Feats. A dragon with paralyzing breath is a lot more fearsome when it can add double it's CON bonus to the DC (Heighten Breath), and guarantee that any who fail will be helpless for long enough for it's breath weapon to be ready again (Maximize Breath.)

Flying overhead is also a good time for the dragon to use spells that debuff the entire party. For example a dispel magic, slow, or Fell Draining magic missile or two is a good opener. To protect themselves while doing this, Ray Deflection (SpC) is great for blocking orbs and Arcane Reach'ed touch spells.

Dragons are only going to be on the ground when they know they have a melee advantage. They should never land when there is a possibility they could be flanked. They have a speed advantage over almost all fliers, so a tactic they would use would be flying away until their breath weapon was ready then returning for a round to inflict as much damage as possible.

Oh, and give a dragon guardians, whether it's a tribe of kobolds, or golems it made, or even undead it controls. A dragon that's all by itself can easily be overwhelmed, and it doesn't make sense for most dragons to place themselves in that vulnerable a position.

[Kaiyanwang]

Nah, now it's the cleric's turn, then the beatstick, then the skillmonkey. Then the dragon.

And the dragon has to contend with wizard spell defenses, which are not as easily dispelled by the dragon.

Alternately, the cleric can dispel, leaving the dragon open to magical attack by the wizard.

I mean really, if the goal is to kill it, at some point, you kinda gotta piss it off a bit.

Well two cases:

1) The party managed to reach such advantageous situation and deserves the initiative

2) the dragon is not using terrain at best. I mean, the dragon didn't even acted, and the meleers are in reach?

Said this, if the DM builds the dragon properly, I wouldn't completely exclude the chance the dragon take damages and debuffs and then wipes the party anyway.



Oh, and give a dragon guardians, whether it's a tribe of kobolds, or golems it made, or even undead it controls. A dragon that's all by itself can easily be overwhelmed, and it doesn't make sense for most dragons to place themselves in that vulnerable a position.

I definitively second this. It's, IMHO, a basic tactic for evey big monster the DM wants to make survive vs one slightly optimized party.

And dragons have a lot of way, fluff wise, to reach this: a brood of wyrmlings, half-dragons children, magic experiments refluffed dragonspawns (or simply with the fluff of gifts of Tiamat), worshippers..

[Myrmex]

At level 6? Slow would work just as well, if the party arcanist had it.

But SR & saves....

[edit]
Oh, my bad, young dragon has no SR. Was looking at young adult.


You should definitely at least give the Dragon Practiced Spellcaster, and probably Ring of Enduring Arcana [CM] too. Those two together should enable the Dragon to withstand a Dispel Magic or two.

At higher levels, using limited wish to put up dispelling buffer (psionic power) for another +4 is also helpful. As well as giving them wizard casting & loredrake.


Nah, now it's the cleric's turn, then the beatstick, then the skillmonkey. Then the dragon.

Nerveskitter + Improved Initiative (pre-req for Dire Charge, as well) + Superior Initiative.