Who should replace Belkar?

[Asta Kask]

Belkar is soon going to be toast, so who should replace him?

I vote for Eric Cartman.

[Omegonthesane]

In his stated role as tracker, I can't think of anyone.

In his actual role as Evil comedy gold and sexy shoeless god of war, I can see Thog joining the party if the Linear Guild are defeated. Or I could link my old thread of crazy theories about how Ganonron could have prepared Tippyverse-style traps set up to resurrect him on demand, failed enough saves against Xykon's Energy Drains to go from Epic to however high the Order are, and be resurrected at some point when the party badly needs Greater Teleport.

(Mind you, I also suggested in that thread that there might be a huge build-up to this followed by Haley presenting her Use Magic Device skill and reading a scroll)

[Totally Guy]

The depressed monk from Origins of PCs. Lawful alignment and 5 attacks per round! 5 of them!

[factotum]

Nobody. They don't need a replacement.

[Kaytara]

Celia. :smallwink:

*RUNS*

[Lvl45DM!]

O-Chul! will replace him!

[Raging Gene Ray]

Mr. Scruffy...who has secretly been Tsukiko's familiar all this time!

[LuisDantas]

Celia. :smallwink:

*RUNS*

Seconded.

And yes, I mean it.

[Lvl45DM!]

Celia is a pasifist sorceror
they have a familicidal wizard
celia would be completly superfluous

[LuisDantas]

None of the PCs are defined by their professions and combat roles alone, so I fail to see the problem.

[73 Bits of Lint]

Celia is a pasifist sorceror
they have a familicidal wizard
celia would be completly superfluous
Of course, it could work; they're like the female odd couple. Except they argue about fantastic genocide as opposed to domesticity. Also one of them might be male.

[Shale]

Nobody. Seven weeks of in-comic time from now will be getting pretty close to the climax, I'd imagine.

[Lvl45DM!]

Well if they arent defined by their roles why replace belkar at all?
as especially why with celia, considering she would be a detriment any time they fought living creatures
No Celia would be a terrible idea

[Pyron]

O-Chul! will replace him!

Only if his battle cry is "Paladin Power!" whenever he fights the monsters. :smallwink:

[LuisDantas]

Well if they arent defined by their roles why replace belkar at all?
as especially why with celia, considering she would be a detriment any time they fought living creatures
No Celia would be a terrible idea

The OOtS was never supposed to be about triumph at the cost of style, if you ask me... and Celia has more interesting plot hooks in her than Belkar, at this point.

[Ichneumon]

I think Miko should replace Belkar. In fact, I think Miko should replace the entire OOTS and we need a comic solely devoted to Miko. [/sarasm]

[Nimrod's Son]

The depressed monk from Origins of PCs.
I agree. It was his gig before Belkar muscled in on it, so it's only fair.

[dps]

Belkar is soon going to be toast, so who should replace him?

I vote for Eric Cartman.

At first, I read that as Eric Clapton.

Which wouldn't make any sense, but might be interesting.

[Tenebrais]

Well if they arent defined by their roles why replace belkar at all?
as especially why with celia, considering she would be a detriment any time they fought living creatures
No Celia would be a terrible idea

But isn't Belkar a detriment any time they're not fighting living creatures?

Unless the Order need the extra firepower, I can't see Belkar being replaced. There are enough evil characters now to not need one in the main party in terms of story. And that's even if you don't consider V an evil character for that purpose.
Really, Belkar is pretty superfluous already...

[Dallas-Dakota]

The depressed monk from Origins of PCs. Lawful alignment and 5 attacks per round! 5 of them!
4 attacks per round. >.> And I checked my OoPC's >.> 's 4 attacks per round. >.>

Also if you look at the timeline, Frudu and Gundulf are done with their quest.
The only reason they weren't on the team was because they already had a quest. >.>

[Vetreon]

There's no such thing as a replacement for Belkar!

[valce]

Zombie Belkar

[Pyron]

Zombie Belkar

:belkar: "Brains..."
:vaarsuvius: "Is it me, or has Belkar put more points in intelligence and wisdom."

Alternatively

:roy: "Belkar - attack!"
:belkar: "Brains..."
:xykon: "A zombie cohort? Really... didn't you see any flaws with that idea?"
:roy: "Well, Durkon has to prepare more inflict spells for healing. But othe... um, crap!"

[Totally Guy]

4 attacks per round. >.> And I checked my OoPC's >.> 's 4 attacks per round. >.>

<.<

>.>

He's probably a higher level by now... Or he took the 2 weapon fighting feat.:smalltongue:

[Omegonthesane]

None of the PCs are defined by their professions and combat roles alone, so I fail to see the problem.

Seconded, but Belkar is comedy gold, and the tone of the comic may well be different without him or a similar foil.

However, this may be what Rich intends, as he really hasn't set anyone up as being able to fulfil a similar role. Unless there's lots of conflict between O-Chul's rigid code and Roy being a little more pragmatic and snarky.

[Mystic Muse]

what about those guys in origin fo PCs who storm the nine hells for fun? They would be useful allies.

[Harr]

I have absolutely nothing to base this on, but I'm pretty confident Belkar after he dies will be replaced by Belkar's ghost, or Belkar's zombie, or Belkar's memory, Belkar coming to someone in dreams, etc etc., I believe he will die, but I do not believe he will actually ever be taken out of the comic.

So yeah, living Belkar will be replaced by dead Belkar in some form or another is my random, unfounded guess :smallsmile:

[Cleverdan22]

I honestly don't think Belkar will be replaced. I think the majority of the rest of the comic will most likely take place over his remaining lifespan, and what happens afterward will be mostly closing up the story and any epilogue-type pages.

[Pronounceable]

The Sexy Shoeless God of War shall not be replaced!

[Sewblon]

I have absolutely nothing to base this on, but I'm pretty confident Belkar after he dies will be replaced by Belkar's ghost, or Belkar's zombie, or Belkar's memory, Belkar coming to someone in dreams, etc etc., I believe he will die, but I do not believe he will actually ever be taken out of the comic.

So yeah, living Belkar will be replaced by dead Belkar in some form or another is my random, unfounded guess :smallsmile:

What harr said. It seems too late in the story to add another main character, even if it is someone we already know.

[David Argall]

what about those guys in origin fo PCs who storm the nine hells for fun? They would be useful allies.

Entirely too useful. The party does not need extra firepower, melee, magic, or other. So Superman joins the party and destroys Xykon in one round... So now what do we do? The story is over and we are bored again. Added power just gets in our way. What it needs is internal conflict so the characters can score off each other. That is why Belkar is such a useful character. So any replacement should be story useful, not party useful.
The one candidate suggested so far that really meets this requirement is Miko. She dominated the stage and would give massive chances for character conflicts. Ignoring the minor fact she is dead, she is much superior to the suggested alternatives.

[Teddy]

In one of the comentaries in NCftPB:
Rich sighed at the lost opportunity to show Belkar in the afterlife.

Perhaps the funny little psychopath will end up wreaking havoc in the abyss, possibly foiling whatever plan the IFCC has for poor V.
And during that time, the party will be happy that they won't get that -5 circumstance penality to skill checks that Belkar radiates, and they will be to occupied saving the world to hire another party member.

[Pyron]

SoD Spoiler
You know, I think Redcloak's Niece could make a decent replacement in terms of character development potential.

[multilis]

On the Miko front, after all these months/years she still amazingly has her name on title of 2 active theads (edit: actually *3*, lol), one already a version 2 as #1 got too full...

Haley has the money, and a body may still show up in the liberation effort...

And with no Belkar, a need to "redeem" her self back to Paladin status, no Soon oath left and a dose of truth, it *might* be possible to have her admit she was wrong and be workable somehow, even if it means sending her ahead of rest of party a bit.

***

We also have the oracle, seems to me would be a very useful addition to the party (always with the right magic item), but probably only could be convinced to join if life depended on it. (Eg, snarl would win otherwise)

***

There are probably lots of dragons and half dragons out there, especially of the black type (but probably also other colors including at least one green female) who would be *happy* to join OOTS if they got promised an extra little reward at the end.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Haley has the money, and a body may still show up in the liberation effort...

And with no Belkar, a need to "redeem" her self back to Paladin status, no Soon oath left and a dose of truth, it *might* be possible to have her admit she was wrong and be workable somehow, even if it means sending her ahead of rest of party a bit.

I recall hearing that Rich said in the commentary of War and XPs that one of Miko's roles is to represent how most people don't get a chance to fix their mistakes, even if they sincerely would want to.

If Miko has any more character development, it would be acknowledging that she could have lived a better life, but deciding to make the best of the future (you always have a future when there's an afterlife) as opposed to dwelling on the past and the ideal she tried to live up to.

So, no, Miko's is VERRRY likely not being raised. Personally, I doubt Belkar needs replacing. They could give his screen time to Durkon and it looks like we'll have enough to keep the story going without a sixth official member.

[Sewblon]

Entirely too useful. The party does not need extra firepower, melee, magic, or other. So Superman joins the party and destroys Xykon in one round... So now what do we do? The story is over and we are bored again. Added power just gets in our way. What it needs is internal conflict so the characters can score off each other. That is why Belkar is such a useful character. So any replacement should be story useful, not party useful.
The one candidate suggested so far that really meets this requirement is Miko. She dominated the stage and would give massive chances for character conflicts. Ignoring the minor fact she is dead, she is much superior to the suggested alternatives.

That is exactly why Belkar can't be replaced, it isn't just that Miko is dead, she has clearly fulfilled her narrative role and bringing her back to become a main character would damage that. The Giant said in No Cure For The Paladin Blues that Miko alienated the people who share his view of the paladin class, he would never bring her back now. So no matter who did it, replacing Belkar would do more harm to the drama than good.

[Crafty Cultist]

If a sexy shoeless god of war dies there is only one who can replace them;

a sexy shoeless undead god of war!

[multilis]

...she has clearly fulfilled her narrative role...
IMO not really, orignially Miko was suppose to be a returning character, which shows that Giant can change his mind.

There is still lots of room to explore what a Miko would be like if she was returned. That isn't saying she will be returned but others have screwed up including Roy who was brought back and there are lots of other characters that may end up in similar "not able to fix in end", eg we still don't know what happens to V, Belkar and Durkon (likely something bad for each). Belkar is an owl's wisdom away from being a good guy, and sometimes con jobs become somewhat real accidently, which could make for a very strange ending.

That is not saying she is likely to return, but there *is* lots of room if Giant changed mind and wanted to again. Same is true with many other blasts from the past.

[Katana_Geldar]

The Giant said Miko was one of those characters who falls from grace and doesn't redeem herself before death, I say her story is done.

A lot of harm can be done to a story by bringing up characters who have done their time.

[Sewblon]

IMO not really, orignially Miko was suppose to be a returning character, which shows that Giant can change his mind.

There is still lots of room to explore what a Miko would be like if she was returned. That isn't saying she will be returned but others have screwed up including Roy who was brought back and there are lots of other characters that may end up in similar "not able to fix in end", eg we still don't know what happens to V, Belkar and Durkon (likely something bad for each). Belkar is an owl's wisdom away from being a good guy, and sometimes con jobs become somewhat real accidently, which could make for a very strange ending.

That is not saying she is likely to return, but there *is* lots of room if Giant changed mind and wanted to again. Same is true with many other blasts from the past.

I admit that I don't know what The Giant will do, but I can't see Miko returning causing anything but more problems. The Giant can always add more characters, or do something that changes the group dynamic, but replacing main characters for the sake of having a certain number of main characters really devalues the characters and story. I don't mind if Belkar dies, since death doesn't equal being written out of this strip, but replacing him would ruin it for me.

[Raging Gene Ray]

IMO not really, orignially Miko was suppose to be a returning character, which shows that Giant can change his mind.


And she has been a returning character. I think the Giant said that after the trial, but before Miko met Xykon. Back then it was a hint of things to done, but now it's a prophecy that's already come to pass...or something.

In other words, recent commentary that hints Miko's story is done (War and XPs) trumps old commentary about how she's a recurring character (Whichever book he said that other thing in).

Oh, and I think Thog should replace Belkar. Give him a shock collar, a few Enchantment spells from V, let him have some of Elan's ice cream-he can be a team player!

[captin-caveman]

Arnold Schwarzeneigers half ogre barbarian

[captin-caveman]

Eugene all said:smallbiggrin:

[multilis]

And she has been a returning character. I think the Giant said that after the trial, but before Miko met Xykon. Back then it was a hint of things to done, but now it's a prophecy that's already come to pass...or something.
If I recall correctly the original wording was something about recurring throughout the story, so he changed his mind.... and there is always a change he may change it again.

Even if Miko came back it is very possible she wouldn't redeem herself. She could become many many things from a different sort of antagonist to comic relief to "evolve".

Ansom from Erfworld came back...

[XAQ]

Nobody. Seven weeks of in-comic time from now will be getting pretty close to the climax, I'd imagine.

Between the fact that there's still TWO gates to deal with, AND this whole new revelation about the world within the Snarl, I doubt that... unless the Giant is really going to rush things.

[Asta Kask]

Seconded, but Belkar is comedy gold, and the tone of the comic may well be different without him or a similar foil

That's why I suggested Eric Cartman... :smallsmile:

As for Eric Clapton - they already have a bard.

[MetaCarpal]

Well, the Oracle only stated the Belkar would "draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the [in-comic] year." While this clearly precludes Belkar getting a Raise Dead after dying, it does not preclude him becoming any creature type that does not breathe.

I prefer to speculate in favor of his continued presence. :smallamused:

[Leper Master]

(bumping "Trying to overcome Oracle predictions")

Well, the spell clone could be used right?
As the spell is technically not Belkars body and as the spell does specify "The clone is psychically identical. . ." meaning that it is not his body and he is not really taking breaths and still lives. (I know it says "treat as raise dead" but we are talking real world mechanics here people!:smallsmile:)

Now would it be Cliche to mention TGWAH? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86816&highlight=Halberd)

[Scarlet Knight]

I was thinking that Belkar could be a ghost, with his angry personality and all. But that would be too horrible a fate if being a ghost meant
(to quote Barbossa in Pirates of the Caribbean) :

"For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it. Too long I've been starving to death and haven't died. I feel nothing. Not the wind on my face nor the spray of the sea. Nor the warmth of a woman's flesh. "

Other than the fun of inflicting pain, Belkar would lose everthing he enjoys - food , drink, women. Though I could see Belkar questing to become one of those sexually active ghosts (ie Ghost)...

[Kish]

Well, the Oracle only stated the Belkar would "draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the [in-comic] year."

...and that Belkar should savor his next birthday cake, needn't bother funding his IRA, and isn't long for the world.

Which, of course, doesn't preclude him becoming any creature that does not breathe, eat, pay taxes or exist.

[multilis]

...and that Belkar should savor his next birthday cake, needn't bother funding his IRA, and isn't long for the world.

Which, of course, doesn't preclude him becoming any creature that does not breathe, eat, pay taxes or exist.He still could exist in another world/plane, we see one beyond the rift and fiends have their own.

In theory, OOTS could end up in the inner world and Belkar could join them as vampire/golem/etc. For all we know they may need to help Frudu and his ming quest.

As well, Belkar's goal is to cheat... if he finds out the prophesy, he will be looking for a way to cheat it (fit the wording but avoid ending). Even reincarnate might work for that.

On the other hand the oracle was enjoying Belkars end too much, so even if he does manage to cheat, it probably will end up nasty backlash, eg reincarnate into worst possible option.

[Joerg]

If anyone replaces Belkar, it should be Julia. There's plenty potential for character interaction with her in the group (an overprotective Roy? a jealous Haley? a V who feels threatened in his function as party wizard? a very smug Eugene?).

She also represents an original viewpoint with her true neutral alignment, and I would like to see more of a wizard who isn't absolutely dedicated to her studies. Julias level could be a problem, but the group doesn't really need more power (and anyway she's not less powerful than e.g. Celia). Julia could also provide some spells which are barred to V if necessary.

[Omegonthesane]

If anyone replaces Belkar, it should be Julia....

She also represents an original viewpoint with her true neutral alignment, and I would like to see more of a wizard who isn't absolutely dedicated to her studies. Julias level could be a problem, but the group doesn't really need more power (and anyway she's not less powerful than e.g. Celia). Julia could also provide some spells which are barred to V if necessary.

Vaarsuvius is no longer utterly devoted to her studies, not after the soul splice showed her the futility of arcane power (not that that's a valid lesson by D&D rules, but OotS seems to take place in a world where 3.5 wasn't broken to hell). As for Julia's level, she's explicitly a 3rd level wizard last time we heard and still in high school, whereas the party are all mid- to high-level adventurers; she'd be a deadweight or just plain dead within a few strips, unless the universe was kind and gave her a share of leaked EXP from a 15th level encounter.

Honestly, I think the new member - if there has to be one - will be Thog. Getting an LE replacement for a new spin on the philosophy conflict between Belkar and everyone else would be nice, and getting a wizard who can teleport would be nicer, but bringing in Ganonron requires Tippyverse shenanigans.

Wait, come to think of it, Haerta went free and was laughing madly when she did. She's far too powerful for a permanent member, but I'd be a little disappointed if she didn't help or hinder the party or at least get her fate confirmed in a later strip. Maybe Xykon becomes beatable because the Order manage to bribe her into trying to solo him first...

[ClericOfBelker]

How Dare You Even Think Of It!*stab 10000 Times!*

[Joerg]

Vaarsuvius is no longer utterly devoted to her studies, not after the soul splice showed her the futility of arcane power.

That remains to be seen. In 667 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html), she rather laments that she didn't use the power effectively; not that the power itself had been the wrong way.


As for Julia's level, she's explicitly a 3rd level wizard last time we heard and still in high school, whereas the party are all mid- to high-level adventurers; she'd be a deadweight or just plain dead within a few strips, unless the universe was kind and gave her a share of leaked EXP from a 15th level encounter.

Well, Celia was neither a deadweight nor plain dead and doesn't seem much more powerful than Julia, who could be fifth or sixth level by now.

[badam104172]

two words. HALFLING. LICH.

[hamishspence]

He'd need a caster level of 11 though. Since his caster level is half his ranger level, that implies 22 levels of ranger.

Halfling other undead is possible in theory and slightly more feasible.

[ClericOfBelker]

two words. HALFLING. LICH.

*applause*

He joins Team Evil!

[Allan Surgite]

...that doesn't make any sense (Belkar joining Team Evil, that is).

Belkar is "not long for this world", among other things - this precludes being an Undead in the OotS-verse. He could become a Death Knight or some variant in the "World Within the World", but that's grasping at straws.

[Zevox]

two words. HALFLING. LICH.
One word: impossible. Becoming a Lich requires you to be a spellcaster with a CL of at least 11. Belkar is no such thing - he can't even use the extremely limited spellcasting capacities he gets as a Ranger, and those wouldn't be sufficient for him to even try becoming a Lich if he could use them until epic levels.

Besides, as Allan A. Aokage said, the indications we have from the Oracle preclude Belkar sticking around as any form of undead. He's going to die and not come back.

Zevox

[Asta Kask]

Hilga? What do you think?

[Emanick]

How about Frudu, who has succumbed to the power of the Ming off-panel, murdered Gundolf, and is secretly out to harness the Snarl for his own diabolical ends? :smallbiggrin:

[rewinn]

Wait, come to think of it, Haerta went free and was laughing madly when she did. She's far too powerful for a permanent member, but I'd be a little disappointed if she didn't help or hinder the party or at least get her fate confirmed in a later strip....

Haerta's soul inhabiting the body of a flumpf.

Cosmic power ... itty bitty living space ... perfectly balanced CE!

[Omegonthesane]

Well, Celia was neither a deadweight nor plain dead and doesn't seem much more powerful than Julia, who could be fifth or sixth level by now.
Celia went from being captured to unquestionably having the upper hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html), while outnumbered by mid-level foes. Julia probably can't even cast the relevant Lightning spell. If you want a better comparison to her in raw power, try Durkon or Normal V - all her uselessness has come from being a pacifist, not from being weak.


Haerta's soul inhabiting the body of a flumpf.

Cosmic power ... itty bitty living space ... perfectly balanced CE!

But Haerta is NE...

[Pyron]

Another question is who should replace Vaarsuvius?

Would the Order trust her (and want her in the party) once the IFCC makes their play for the gate? :smallyuk:

[Mystic Muse]

Edward Cullen!:smallbiggrin:

prepares self for groans of agony

let it be known I have no interest in and have never read twilight.

[Asta Kask]

Another question is who should replace Vaarsuvius

Larry Gardener?