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Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-29, 05:47 AM
In a campaign setting I'm preparing, the story goes as follows:


1) Some hundred thousand years ago, mankind discovers magic.
2) Huge war between tech and magic nations follows. Magic wins.
3) Cue in several millenia of nuclear winter.
4) With the aid of magic, mankind survives. As the unnatural ice age comes to an end, a very, very advanced civilisation is built where magic replaces-and is better than-tech.
5) Advances in species manipulation through magic are being made. Rich people pay to become exceptionally long-lived, more beautiful, smarter and perceptive. Companies pay for stronger, more durable, socially and intellectually dependent workers. The military studies the creation of extremely powerful beings with innate destructive sorceries while scientists pursue the paths that lead to immortality. As factions within humanity and between nations become more varied, the differences lead to strife, racism and eventually all-out war.
6) Cue in several millenia of nuclear winter.
7) Many different intelligent species evolve out of the ashes of the previous world. Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Orcs become distinct races. Abominations and demons, the weapons of the second war, roam the worst places of the world. There are rumors of things that dwell in the dark, creatures that exist but do not live, unspeakable horrors that drink blood and eat flesh.
8) Humans repopulate the world faster than the other races but have little supernatural defences against the growing darkness. The undead, results of mankind's long-forgotten hunt for immortality, multiply, finding easy victims for their hunger. An alliance of all the humanoid races is formed to stop the dark tide whose members have learned how to walk in daylight and disguise themselves as human. A council of the most powerful mages in the world is formed.
9) The archwizard Adiom curses all supernatural bloodlines everywhere to be unable to conceal themselves as human. The curse takes the form of twisted ears, longer and more pointed the farther from human the humanoid in question is. The stealth advantage of the undead is nullified and the war would be over-if the curse had not also marked the humans' living allies. Mass hysteria ensues as the populace sees enemies everywhere. Attempts at elven genocide begin the third and worst of the great wars.
10) Cue in several millenia of nuclear winter.


11) Present day, beginnings of the fourth age. The geographical features of the world have changed so much as to be unrecognizable; a new world has risen from the Great Wars.
The council of archwizards lives in a shielded sanctuary-city in an unknown location, periodically seeking strong magical talent among the humans. They are the self-appointed guardians of the world yet few see them actually guarding anything beyond themselves. The Curse of Adiom is still strong, a bitter rift between the White Order and most nonhumans.
Human settlements have been appearing over the last five hundred years but humanity has not recovered enough to build major cities or nations yet.
The elves retain a few major magical enclaves that survived the Third War and the following ice age deep in the wildest parts of the surface world; the majority of their population has retreated there and most of them have taken up peaceful coexistence with Nature as their way of life.
The dwarves have weathered the ice age underground, in bunkers that eventually developed into subterranean cities. Dwarven culture is now focused on the earth and its crafts.
The orcs are now barbarian tribes occupying the harsher climate zones, living in desert and tundra environments. Tribes of orcs have lived underground, growing smaller and adapting in the darkness. They are now called goblins.
Vast disaster areas plague the planet's surface; Zones of increased volcanic activity where the earth's crust is fractured, fire and stone rises from the depths and few living beings can endure. Radioactive wastelands and poisonous swamps where foul fumes darken the air and scorch the skies and too-high mountains where the air is thin and the temperature abysmally cold. Living weapons and monsters from the past wars dwell there, what men are now calling demons, abominations and giants. The dead sleep in the darkest places and oldest ruins, the darkness that once walked and almost devoured the world now dormant and forgotten...



So, in a world without dragons and a very different take of the origins of various races, what creatures would you have replacing dragons? Looking for refreshing ideas for the strongest type of creatures in the world here.

Tehnar
2009-09-29, 06:19 AM
Androids left over from the first age emerge from some hidden location?

Gibbering Mouthers could be a interesting big bad, lets say if you give them world wide telepathy and the ability to spawn monsters as in previous editions.

A setting where giants are the top dog could also be interesting.

Saph
2009-09-29, 06:21 AM
Strongest all-round creature type after dragons would probably be outsiders - demons, devils, and celestials. With no dragons around you'd expect them to dominate, as they've got most of what dragons have (intelligence, strength, toughness, magic, flight, no real weaknesses).

If those are out then we're starting to run thin on high-power monsters. Illithids are powerful enough, but traditionally they keep to themselves. Vampires are typically few in number and need a large prey population.

Maybe nightshades and giants. Giants are tough enough to take on most things, given class levels, and nightshades would rule the night hours with all of the more powerful creatures that typically keep them in check removed.

Comet
2009-09-29, 06:28 AM
Giants sound good. They fill the same classic big monster in a cave- slot as dragons.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-29, 06:37 AM
Strongest all-round creature type after dragons would probably be outsiders - demons, devils, and celestials. With no dragons around you'd expect them to dominate, as they've got most of what dragons have (intelligence, strength, toughness, magic, flight, no real weaknesses).

If those are out then we're starting to run thin on high-power monsters. Illithids are powerful enough, but traditionally they keep to themselves. Vampires are typically few in number and need a large prey population.

Maybe nightshades and giants. Giants are tough enough to take on most things, given class levels, and nightshades would rule the night hours with all of the more powerful creatures that typically keep them in check removed.

Other possibilities are throwbacks from times gone by. I mean, it seems like magic ain't what it used to be. So, holed up in areas long forgotten, exist monstrous technological engines, their bodies comprised of rare and valuable metals.

In other words? Hit up some high powered golems in there.

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 07:21 AM
And it was so interesting until "And now the races fit the standard stereotypical role everyone gives them" *sigh*.

Berserk Monk
2009-09-29, 07:28 AM
There'd have to be organized world governments, and cars, and planes, and cell phones, and the internet, and the Statue of Liberty off in the background? Wait a minute...

it's earth? No! You bastards! You Blew it up! You really did it! Damn you! Damn you to hell!

Lvl45DM!
2009-09-29, 07:31 AM
Bah s/hes got a good idea and a creative way of getting them there dont knock it

Abberrations seem to be the way to go with this, id use beholders and mind flayers and their eldritch abomination big bads as dragon supplements

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 07:35 AM
Bah s/hes got a good idea and a creative way of getting them there dont knock it

I didn't. I disliked the presence of the sterotypical dwarf craftsmen, Orc barbarians and Tree huger elfs after the good backstory. It makes the world ultimately mundane.

Amphetryon
2009-09-29, 08:27 AM
Strongest all-round creature type after dragons would probably be outsiders - demons, devils, and celestials. With no dragons around you'd expect them to dominate, as they've got most of what dragons have (intelligence, strength, toughness, magic, flight, no real weaknesses).

If those are out then we're starting to run thin on high-power monsters. Illithids are powerful enough, but traditionally they keep to themselves. Vampires are typically few in number and need a large prey population.

Maybe nightshades and giants. Giants are tough enough to take on most things, given class levels, and nightshades would rule the night hours with all of the more powerful creatures that typically keep them in check removed.
This. Lords of Madness is a solid resource for filling a dragon-free world with high-level challenges if you simply retool your world's fluff so that all the aberrations have some reason(s) bot to be reclusive. This is doubly true if you're not running a campaign without Psionics.

chiasaur11
2009-09-29, 10:18 AM
There'd have to be organized world governments, and cars, and planes, and cell phones, and the internet, and the Statue of Liberty off in the background? Wait a minute...

it's earth? No! You bastards! You Blew it up! You really did it! Damn you! Damn you to hell!

So, Apes are the new big menace?

(For the record, I vote giant robots. SCIENCE! is better than magic any day of the week.)

Cieyrin
2009-09-29, 10:52 AM
I third the vote for giants or maybe titans!:smallbiggrin:

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-29, 11:01 AM
I like the aberrations suggestion, especially the illithids and aboleths. They tie into the campaign backstory nicely; as an alternative way to immortality, some arcane scientists decided to change their bodies into a type of creature that doesn't naturally age, is even smarter and has weird mental powers. Eventually they grew away from the concerns of humanity, seeing acquisition of knowledge as the ultimate goal, no matter the consequences (up to and including eating the brains of others)


As for the mundane ending to the backstory, I haven't really worked that far-hence the cheapskate stereotypical races.
What I'd really like to do though was give the elves and dwarves some magitech that really fits their flavor instead of the flying elemental ships and trains of Eberron;

Elves:
Spells and devices powered by solar energy from solar sail gliders and ships (solar panels) to crystal towers that store sunlight and strike enemies with searing light (lasers) to potions that promote and control plant growth (agricultural aides) and magically engineered plants that produce organically grown crystal tools and weapons (genetic engineering). Area magics that control the climate and environment to some extent and are responsible for elven enclaves surviving the ice age (weather control). Magically enhanced animals that are stronger, faster, lighter than normal and immune to diseases (again, genetic engineering)

Dwarves:
Magics and devices that harness the heat of the earth (geothermal power plants) to power huge foundries that can produce advanced earth (ceramic factories) weapons and building materials, runic containers of various sizes that can store heat energy and unleash it on command (explosives) and weapons based on them (grenades, cannons, flamethrowers)

jiriku
2009-09-29, 11:03 AM
Balrog balrog balrog! BALROG! Err, I mean, balor.

Choco
2009-09-29, 11:30 AM
I would say, make your own creatures! If you are going for a unique homebrew world, this is about the best you can do. Or work off of what is already there and modify it.

If you are looking for something with similar flavor to dragons (solitary, uber-powerful, reclusive) then you can re-fluff and power-boost Hydras, or even the Tarrasque. Or you can use Beholders with class levels maybe. Come to think of it this would work well with any gargantuan + creature.

Myshlaevsky
2009-09-29, 11:43 AM
I like the aberrations suggestion, especially the illithids and aboleths. They tie into the campaign backstory nicely; as an alternative way to immortality, some arcane scientists decided to change their bodies into a type of creature that doesn't naturally age, is even smarter and has weird mental powers. Eventually they grew away from the concerns of humanity, seeing acquisition of knowledge as the ultimate goal, no matter the consequences (up to and including eating the brains of others)


As for the mundane ending to the backstory, I haven't really worked that far-hence the cheapskate stereotypical races.
What I'd really like to do though was give the elves and dwarves some magitech that really fits their flavor instead of the flying elemental ships and trains of Eberron;

Elves:
Spells and devices powered by solar energy from solar sail gliders and ships (solar panels) to crystal towers that store sunlight and strike enemies with searing light (lasers) to potions that promote and control plant growth (agricultural aides) and magically engineered plants that produce organically grown crystal tools and weapons (genetic engineering). Area magics that control the climate and environment to some extent and are responsible for elven enclaves surviving the ice age (weather control). Magically enhanced animals that are stronger, faster, lighter than normal and immune to diseases (again, genetic engineering)

Dwarves:
Magics and devices that harness the heat of the earth (geothermal power plants) to power huge foundries that can produce advanced earth (ceramic factories) weapons and building materials, runic containers of various sizes that can store heat energy and unleash it on command (explosives) and weapons based on them (grenades, cannons, flamethrowers)

How do you explain the morphological differences of the Dwarves? If I've read your description right the Orcs are your Morlock-workers and the Dwarves are survivors who took refuge underground. The dwarven racial adaptations aren't what is typically seen as coming from living in a bunker. Were these the miners even back in the golden age? Their strength and size would make them well suited to working hard labour in small spaces. If they were a worker caste wouldn't they have common ground ideologically with the Orcs?

Also, I feel you should go nuclear for at least one Dwarven citadel. Look up currently planned nuclear technologies - they are pretty cool and dramatic in theory.

Beholders would make a nice antagonist, but in your world I feel they cannot be other than created weapons of war. Possibly a beholder is a battle-symbiote for an aberration-inclined scientist, but the enormous spellpower contained therein inevitably drove the user into arrogance and xenophobia?

Zen Master
2009-09-29, 11:45 AM
So, in a world without dragons and a very different take of the origins of various races, what creatures would you have replacing dragons? Looking for refreshing ideas for the strongest type of creatures in the world here.

No world I GM in ever has dragons. I've never felt the need to replace them with anything :)

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 12:20 PM
As for the mundane ending to the backstory, I haven't really worked that far-hence the cheapskate stereotypical races.
What I'd really like to do though was give the elves and dwarves some magitech that really fits their flavor instead of the flying elemental ships and trains of Eberron;


Better idea:Get rid of the Tolkien plagiarizing "we love saying we are smarter than you but we grows mentally at a 10th the pace of a human" and their ilk entirely!

hamlet
2009-09-29, 12:23 PM
I didn't. I disliked the presence of the sterotypical dwarf craftsmen, Orc barbarians and Tree huger elfs after the good backstory. It makes the world ultimately mundane.

I think it's a pretty good idea, though it should be taken a bit further. The dwarves didn't just survive by hunkering down in bunkers, they eventually grew so dependent upon their underground dwellings that they began to worship the earth/stone even if only a little bit. Orcs, left on the surface and in the wastes, grew to fanaticize survivalism. They're into the Spartan Way to an almost comedic and horrific extent. To them, anything that is not the self (i.e., that particular Orc or tribe of orcs) is nothing more than a resource to be used or an enemy/danger to be destroyed.

Don't just say "and all the racial groups fell into their standard slots per PHB," explain how they got there and how it affects their thinking.

arguskos
2009-09-29, 12:27 PM
Better idea:Get rid of the Tolkien plagiarizing "we love saying we are smarter than you but we grows mentally at a 10th the pace of a human" and their ilk entirely!
Meh, dwarves and elves can be interesting, if done well. My personal setting has some unique twists on them, for example. Dwarves are hyper-paranoid backstabbing greedy bastards who'd as soon shank you than give you the time of day. Elves are technocrats, more interested in high philosophy and the making of incomprehensible mechanical widgets that don't actually DO anything than in being polite. Gnomes are dead in their graves, thank god.

My thoughts about dragons are that they are good for some worlds, and not for others. My setting doesn't incorporate them in any real way. Instead, they're aloof masters that simply hide in their nation and don't interact with lesser mortals save through slave races and bred servants. They are completely unplayable, as is anything vaguely relating to draconic whatever.

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 12:57 PM
Meh, dwarves and elves can be interesting, if done well. My personal setting has some unique twists on them, for example. Dwarves are hyper-paranoid backstabbing greedy bastards who'd as soon shank you than give you the time of day. Elves are technocrats, more interested in high philosophy and the making of incomprehensible mechanical widgets that don't actually DO anything than in being polite. Gnomes are dead in their graves, thank god.


Yes, the perfect way to solve shallow races, given them new sterotypes they follow to the letter...

CockroachTeaParty
2009-09-29, 01:05 PM
Well, if there's no dragons, there better be a crapload of dungeons!
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA!!

...
*dies*

arguskos
2009-09-29, 01:26 PM
Yes, the perfect way to solve shallow races, given them new sterotypes they follow to the letter...
So, the basic 5-second overview gives you a total insight into the race? Yeah, that's a great way to judge something. /sarcasm

That synopsis is just that: A SYNOPSIS. It wasn't a total overhaul or explanation, and I'm not done with the race rebuilds anyways. Please, don't judge people's ideas based on a very basic view of something. :smallannoyed:

Crafty Cultist
2009-09-29, 01:31 PM
refluff a titan and it would make a good giant robot

SartheKobold
2009-09-29, 01:38 PM
Sounds pretty Fallout... <Raises eyebrow>

How about the planet it'self? Take Elder/Primal Elementals and buff the crap out of them via advancement, templates, or even class levels...

Repeatedly blasted and poisoned by the arcane energies utilized throughout the wars, the forces of nature were dashed under it's corrupting force. That corruption held for years and years, infecting the planet and the environment, festering to the point that it had to be purged. Like an animal vomiting spoiled food, the planet cast off large portions of blighted nature.

Fissilemental
Colossal Elemental [Earth][Nuclear]
HD: 30d8+420 (555hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40ft
Armor Class: 10
BAB/GRP: +22/+32
Attack: Slam +32M(4d8+10 plus 3d6 Radiation)
Full Attack: 2 Slams +32M (4d8+10 plus 3d6 Radiation)
Space/Reach: 50x50/25ft
SA: Radiation Aura, Earth Mastery, Push, Mutate, Corrupt Elemental
SQ: Earth Glide, Rad Level 3
Saves: F+28 /R+10 /W+12
Abilities: Str-30, Dex-16, Con-38, Int-10, Wis-21, Cha-11
Skills: Listen+38 ,Spot+38
Feats: 11 Feats

Environment: Any Underground/Nuclear
Organization: Solitary or Reactor (4 Fissilementals)
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral Evil

Corrupt Elemental (Ex): Any Earth Elemental destroyed within 30ft of an active Fissilemental will reassemble as a Fissilemental of it's size, gaining the [Radiation] subtype, a Radiation Aura and a Rad Level based on it's size.

Earth Glide (Ex): As Earth Elemental

Earth Mastery (Ex): As Earth Elemental

Mutate (Ex): Creatures taking Radiation damage more than 3/4 maximum hp must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Con Modifier) or develop a mutation from the Radiation Mutation table. (Too lazy: Make one up...)

Push (Ex): As Earth Elemental

Radiation Aura (Ex): A Fissilemental radiates intense radiation from it's body. Unshielded creatures within 30ft of a Fissilemental must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10+1/2HD+Con Modifier) or take 1 Con Damage/Rad Level. A Fissilemental's natural attacks deal +1d6 Radiation Damage/Rad Level.

Half-assed and thrown together, unbalanced and probabbly lethal, but it's an example... Throw in spells that resist/utilize radiation, make up a mutation table, serve chilled...

Godskook
2009-09-29, 01:55 PM
I like this setting. One suggestion for an Ancient race of story keepers is Warforged. Fluff as something similar to the little guys in the movie '9'.

Jothki
2009-09-29, 02:20 PM
The nastiest creatures would probably be ones that were created as weapons near the ends of the previous ages. The nastier surface-dwellers from a previous age would probably have been driven extinct in the peak of the next age, though stronger creatures could have survived lurking in deep caves or underground ruins.

For the first age, you'd probably have some sort of constructs, either purely robotic or using some sort of magitechnology. For the second age, abberations and demons and like, along with any particularly nasty undead that didn't surface during the third age. For the third age, leftover undead from the war and whatever creations were made during the two wars.

You say that the war during the third age was the nastiest, but you don't say what actually made it nasty. The first war involved escalating magic and technology until everything blew up, the second involved escalating magical genetic engineering until everything blew up, but all you stated for the third war was a big nasty war. That'd be enough to beat civilization back to the stone age, but wouldn't cause a nuclear winter on its own. Given how effective a single caster's curse was at that point, was that level of magic being used for war at fault?

SinsI
2009-09-29, 02:51 PM
I'd take this world a little different:
"Elves" are those that enhance themselves through biotechnology;
"Dwarfs" are cyborgs;
"Orcs" are free-roaming tribesman that freely mutate and rely on survival of the fittest;
"humans" are the products of eugenics program that tries to keep the rate of mutations as low as possible.

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 06:06 PM
So, the basic 5-second overview gives you a total insight into the race? Yeah, that's a great way to judge something. /sarcasm

That synopsis is just that: A SYNOPSIS. It wasn't a total overhaul or explanation, and I'm not done with the race rebuilds anyways. Please, don't judge people's ideas based on a very basic view of something. :smallannoyed:

I am complaining/saying that if an overview of the entire race's (implied) personality exists, then the race shares a personalty (except for the drizit can'trecallhowtospellnameswitha'apostro'fees guys, who share a second). If the race shares a personality they are shallow, because they all follow the same paragraph for how they act (do all humans, even thouse of a single nation, follow the same paragraph for how they act socially if the paragraph isn't speaking boardly?).

Narco
2009-09-29, 06:44 PM
{Scrubbed}

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-29, 07:10 PM
Don't accuse people of trolling. Personally, deuxhero angered me too, but then I actually examined his/her arguments and calmed down.

Having certain listed personality tendencies for a race doesn't make them shallow. You can sum up typical traits of autistic people, black teenagers who listen to rap in Alabama, or Catholic/monarchist Spanish Nationalists in a paragraph. Doesn't make any of those groups shallow. If the whole race follows that same paragraph, that's bad DMing/writing, not a fault of the paragraph itself.

In my experience, the stereotypes are vastly preferable. Most of the counter-stereotypes are just so for the sake of difference ("I don't have any identity" is just such an example), or crippled in execution. Stereotypes came into existence for a reason, and if run well (which again, in my experience, is more common than a counter-stereotype being run well) is just fine.

But you do raise the entirely valid point that several aspects of the Tolkienesque races combined with their having any sort of "society" we would recognize are...inconsistent, at least.

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 07:14 PM
Yes, some narrow groups can be described semi accurately, but applying it to entire races/species (particularly ones who claim to be metally superior to, but have a tenth the mental growth of humans i.e., Elfs.) is my first or second biggest annoyance at fantasy writing (not sure because it overlaps very much with "Tolkien plagiarism")

TelemontTanthul
2009-09-29, 07:28 PM
Make Elememtals the main attraction.

You could say that in cases where magic goes awry, elementals are set free to ravage the countryside, and instead of loot, they hoard magic, meaning they kidnap wizards and stuff to be their slaves, and to continually feed their needs for power.

Just throwing that out there.

Lapak
2009-09-29, 07:47 PM
The nastiest creatures would probably be ones that were created as weapons near the ends of the previous ages. The nastier surface-dwellers from a previous age would probably have been driven extinct in the peak of the next age, though stronger creatures could have survived lurking in deep caves or underground ruins.

For the first age, you'd probably have some sort of constructs, either purely robotic or using some sort of magitechnology. For the second age, abberations and demons and like, along with any particularly nasty undead that didn't surface during the third age. For the third age, leftover undead from the war and whatever creations were made during the two wars.

You say that the war during the third age was the nastiest, but you don't say what actually made it nasty. The first war involved escalating magic and technology until everything blew up, the second involved escalating magical genetic engineering until everything blew up, but all you stated for the third war was a big nasty war. That'd be enough to beat civilization back to the stone age, but wouldn't cause a nuclear winter on its own. Given how effective a single caster's curse was at that point, was that level of magic being used for war at fault?I was going to write up something very similar to this.

Magically-empowered intelligent war-constructs would fill the slot very nicely indeed. Instead of needing treasure hoards, tearing them apart would provide the standard 'treasure' you'd expect. And the terror that adventurers feel when confronted with a dragon pales next to what would happen when a rocket-propelled magical bomber in the shape of a Gargantuan magi-techno eagle roars over their head and unleashes the equivalent of an orbital strike. It's something they're not equipped to comprehend. Or when a the iron fortress they are approaching to raid stands up and reveals itself as a walking weapons platform from a forgotten age.

Paulus
2009-09-29, 07:57 PM
The second biggest baddest's around after dragons would most definitely be... Tarasque.

But really I'd say Giants, or maybe giant animals.

Ehra
2009-09-29, 08:12 PM
Yes, some narrow groups can be described semi accurately, but applying it to entire races/species (particularly ones who claim to be metally superior to, but have a tenth the mental growth of humans i.e., Elfs.) is my first or second biggest annoyance at fantasy writing (not sure because it overlaps very much with "Tolkien plagiarism")

How are you supposed to give people ANY kind of idea about your setting if all of the descriptions of your races are "everyone's personality is their own and they all don't follow the same thought pattern"?

It's assumed that racial explanations are broad and not concrete and specific. You say that describing "narrow groups" is ok, but does that mean everyone in that group will fit the description to the group? Of course not, and it's the same racial descriptions. No, not everyone is going to follow it to a T, but you need to provide SOMETHING for people to go by so they can have some idea on what's going on.

Just like how nations have their own general customs that differ from other nations, it makes sense that entire races would have their own general way of thinking that differs from other races. THAT is what's being described in racial descriptions. Arguing with someone that their races are shallow based on a description that the person has directly told you is broad just reeks of someone looking to start an argument for the sake of arguing.


edit: As for the topic, I'm going to second the suggestions to go with "genetically produced" aberrations like Illithids and Beholders, Elementals, Golems/Titans, or a mix of the three. I'm partial to the idea of the doomsday Golems buried under the earth's crust, but the others have lots of potential as well. I liked the imagery one person brought up by comparing the Earth purging its spreading corruption to an animal vomiting. There's a lot you can do here, and you're not really limited to just one "big baddie." Our own world has plenty of possible "dooms day" scenarios that all have the potential of happening. Your own world could have enough room for multiples as well :)

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 08:40 PM
No, I'm saying that kind of thing belongs in a paragraph under culture (or country or whatnot), not race.

Ehra
2009-09-29, 09:02 PM
It's the exact same thing and you're just arguing semantics now. Each race has their own culture that needs to be explained to give someone a general idea of your setting.

Talya
2009-09-29, 09:02 PM
OP: You just described the basic setting of the Shannara series, by Terry Brooks.

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 10:11 PM
It's the exact same thing and you're just arguing semantics now. Each race has their own culture that needs to be explained to give someone a general idea of your setting.

a:Citizens of the Elf nation of Lots'a'postrpohes are brought up to believe that, despite their blatant mental disabilitys, they are superior to all other races.
b:All Elfs, regardless of how they were raised, despite blatant mental disabilitys, believe that they are superior to all other races.
One makes a lot more sense...

As for who takes the Dragon's job of giant things to kill and take the stuff of, I say go with some varaiton of Giants. They share the same enviroments (tall mountains ) can easily have loot and the various mythologys are in agreement here, giants are mean.

Ehra
2009-09-29, 10:35 PM
a:Citizens of the Elf nation of Lots'a'postrpohes are brought up to believe that, despite their blatant mental disabilitys, they are superior to all other races.
b:All Elfs, regardless of how they were raised, despite blatant mental disabilitys, believe that they are superior to all other races.
One makes a lot more sense...


There are certain things that appear in almost every human society, no matter where in the world you look. Taking human life is generally frowned on. Some form of religion or idea of an afterlife is thought up of by almost every society to exist. Humans as a whole are almost all social creatures that pretty much can not go through life mentally "healthy" without interaction with other humans. Humans believe themselves to be above animals and nature in general, not its "equal."

Sure you can pick out exceptions to everything I just said but, for the most part, it's true for humans in general. Broad descriptions of whole races are perfectly fine.

Ormur
2009-09-30, 12:46 AM
It's hard for us, that live in a world with only a single sentient (humanoid) species to imagine how many such would interact on how they'd develop. It might make more sense for a very long lived race fewer in numbers from humans to think of themselves as a single culture in a way human's wouldn't (but if we'd turn the tables the same could apply to humans). A certain xenophobia and contempt towards other cultures is also pretty common among distinct human cultures so it could by amplified when the gap is not merely cultural.

If we take the elves we're handed by D&D then I think they'd be unlikely to think of their own slow maturity as a mental retardation wherever they are but the descriptions mention conflicting attitudes towards shorter lived species. If humans were dropping like flies around you it might instill a feeling of superiority. The Spanish didn't think highly of the Amerindians that died by their millions from diseases they brought with them, that doesn't justify it.

In my current setting the interaction between elves and humans as an example is based on their history. The long gone human empire of that part of the world (what I'm saying only applies to that, it might be very different elsewhere) was bad to them. That's yesterday for long lived elves so they don't trust humans. They've grouped themselves in forested mountains where humans and their agriculture don't follow. It's not exactly original but there are at least historical reasons for why elves are like that in human minds. It's easier to just take the stereotypes you're handed and work with them if you're focusing your campaign on something else.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-30, 01:28 AM
I think the scariest things are the things you can't really look at and determine power.

Instead of some Monstrous Manual beastie, I think you should make a list of 6 to 10 elf/dwarf/orc/human NPC who, through magic and maybe technology, have somehow attained a form of immortality and a series of templates and special homebrew abilities. Make them appear like their base race, but have strange, indiscernable qualities to them, like burning ice hair or an aura of writhing roots or something. Make them be the ultimate leftover weapons from wars past, and call them something cool like 'Landwalkers' or 'Striders' or 'Apocali' or something. Their desires are unfathomable and they just sorta show up randomly, creating or destroying before disappearing again.

paddyfool
2009-09-30, 01:29 AM
Elven characters, of course, level up and learn new stuff just as fast as other racial characters. On the whole, it always made sense to me for groups of longer-lived races to have more individuals with class levels, and more individuals with a high number of class levels, since life grants experience ;)

Incidentally, how would a small enclave of psions somewhere fit into the world? They could be the denizens of a hidden settlement around a laboratory from stage 5 of that history which managed to survive stage 6, and eventually to actually succeed in finding immortality. Possibly, they could also coexist with equally long-lived warforged dating back to the same era; originally crafted as servants, today it's more of an alliance of convenience between two groups viewed with great suspicion by outsiders. Of course, this lot would seem to have dodged the curse of Adiom; maybe because they'd sought immortality through distinct, psionic routes rather than magical ones. And probably the actual secret of how they obtained immortality would be lost by now.

Narco
2009-09-30, 12:31 PM
duexhero didn't anger me. His posts were somewhat provocative but that isn't what I took exception with. The OP asked specifically what should replace dragons in his setting. He DIDN'T ask if his setting's races were too stereotypical to be used in a campaign. deuxhero did finally answer the OP's question hours after I posted. As my message was scrubbed apparently I was in the wrong but I took exception to the thread derail not the aggression in duexhero's posts.

For the record I would like to say that I agree with duexhero in that Giants would be the most reasonable replacement for Dragons. In most campaigns I run the giants once had the most advanced civilization in the world before they fell into barbarism. Ancient giant artifacts and stuff of that ilk. (Also I was running my games this way long before Eberron came out 8^). Smart giants rule!)

LurkerInPlayground
2009-09-30, 12:56 PM
In a campaign setting I'm preparing, the story goes as follows:


1) Some hundred thousand years ago, mankind discovers magic.
2) Huge war between tech and magic nations follows. Magic wins.
3) Cue in several millenia of nuclear winter.
4) With the aid of magic, mankind survives. As the unnatural ice age comes to an end, a very, very advanced civilisation is built where magic replaces-and is better than-tech.
5) Advances in species manipulation through magic are being made. Rich people pay to become exceptionally long-lived, more beautiful, smarter and perceptive. Companies pay for stronger, more durable, socially and intellectually dependent workers. The military studies the creation of extremely powerful beings with innate destructive sorceries while scientists pursue the paths that lead to immortality. As factions within humanity and between nations become more varied, the differences lead to strife, racism and eventually all-out war.
6) Cue in several millenia of nuclear winter.
7) Many different intelligent species evolve out of the ashes of the previous world. Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Orcs become distinct races. Abominations and demons, the weapons of the second war, roam the worst places of the world. There are rumors of things that dwell in the dark, creatures that exist but do not live, unspeakable horrors that drink blood and eat flesh.
8) Humans repopulate the world faster than the other races but have little supernatural defences against the growing darkness. The undead, results of mankind's long-forgotten hunt for immortality, multiply, finding easy victims for their hunger. An alliance of all the humanoid races is formed to stop the dark tide whose members have learned how to walk in daylight and disguise themselves as human. A council of the most powerful mages in the world is formed.
9) The archwizard Adiom curses all supernatural bloodlines everywhere to be unable to conceal themselves as human. The curse takes the form of twisted ears, longer and more pointed the farther from human the humanoid in question is. The stealth advantage of the undead is nullified and the war would be over-if the curse had not also marked the humans' living allies. Mass hysteria ensues as the populace sees enemies everywhere. Attempts at elven genocide begin the third and worst of the great wars.
10) Cue in several millenia of nuclear winter.


11) Present day, beginnings of the fourth age. The geographical features of the world have changed so much as to be unrecognizable; a new world has risen from the Great Wars.
The council of archwizards lives in a shielded sanctuary-city in an unknown location, periodically seeking strong magical talent among the humans. They are the self-appointed guardians of the world yet few see them actually guarding anything beyond themselves. The Curse of Adiom is still strong, a bitter rift between the White Order and most nonhumans.
Human settlements have been appearing over the last five hundred years but humanity has not recovered enough to build major cities or nations yet.
The elves retain a few major magical enclaves that survived the Third War and the following ice age deep in the wildest parts of the surface world; the majority of their population has retreated there and most of them have taken up peaceful coexistence with Nature as their way of life.
The dwarves have weathered the ice age underground, in bunkers that eventually developed into subterranean cities. Dwarven culture is now focused on the earth and its crafts.
The orcs are now barbarian tribes occupying the harsher climate zones, living in desert and tundra environments. Tribes of orcs have lived underground, growing smaller and adapting in the darkness. They are now called goblins.
Vast disaster areas plague the planet's surface; Zones of increased volcanic activity where the earth's crust is fractured, fire and stone rises from the depths and few living beings can endure. Radioactive wastelands and poisonous swamps where foul fumes darken the air and scorch the skies and too-high mountains where the air is thin and the temperature abysmally cold. Living weapons and monsters from the past wars dwell there, what men are now calling demons, abominations and giants. The dead sleep in the darkest places and oldest ruins, the darkness that once walked and almost devoured the world now dormant and forgotten...



So, in a world without dragons and a very different take of the origins of various races, what creatures would you have replacing dragons? Looking for refreshing ideas for the strongest type of creatures in the world here.
Or simply:
Dragons evolved from a biologically-engineered weapon. Unleashing a few of these flying predators would be a good way to terrorize an enemy.

Ironically, these dragons were themselves inspired by mythological dragons. Probably a mad-scientist with pretensions toward art got his hands on a budget and cranked a few out.

Also, interesting philosophical question:
What is magic?

Depending on how you choose to answer the question, it may have setting implications. Demons needn't be gene-manipulated humans that evolved on their own if magic is literally a supernatural phenomenon.

Trixie
2009-10-01, 05:16 PM
Tanks. Mutated and twisted by First War, the machines are not part-magical engines of war, capable of firing unholy blasts from their weapons. They exist only to destroy, seeking sustenance in the form of dead beings and destroyed magical artifacts, as they replenish their reserves on mana by devouring freshly freed magic.

Throw a few on machine specific powers (perhaps some can quietly fly just above earth, some can turn almost invisible, or even teleport from place to place, drawing from their internal reserves).

chiasaur11
2009-10-01, 05:23 PM
Tanks. Mutated and twisted by First War, the machines are not part-magical engines of war, capable of firing unholy blasts from their weapons. They exist only to destroy, seeking sustenance in the form of dead beings and destroyed magical artifacts, as they replenish their reserves on mana by devouring freshly freed magic.

Throw a few on machine specific powers (perhaps some can quietly fly just above earth, some can turn almost invisible, or even teleport from place to place, drawing from their internal reserves).

Evil Bolos?

Yeah. That would be worrisome.

Volkov
2009-10-01, 05:43 PM
So as dragons are gone, the dinosaurs and other giant prehistoric reptiles would explode in numbers, where dragons once flew and charged, pterosaurs, synapsids, crurotarsins, and dinosaurs would live. Where dragons once swam, mosasaurs, icthyosaurs, pliosaurs, marine crurotarsins (marine crocodile like creatures* and plesiosaurs would dominate. Also the dragon gods would curl up and die. Thus depriving Bel of his only major ally, thus he is overthrown, and without his tactical brilliance the devils lose the blood war and the universe is destroyed.

Trixie
2009-10-01, 06:40 PM
Evil Bolos?

Yeah. That would be worrisome.

Nah, Bolo's an overkill. I thought more about T-72, an armor covered with cracks and holes from long past battles, unholy light emanating from within.

Smoke grenade launchers and reactive armor would be a nasty surprise to anyone fighting it :smalltongue:

Volkov
2009-10-01, 06:41 PM
Nah, Bolo's an overkill. I thought more about T-72, an armor covered with cracks and holes from long past battles, unholy light emanating from within.

Smoke grenade launchers and reactive armor would be a nasty surprise to anyone fighting it :smalltongue:

You can keep your T-72's, I've got Soviet Apocalypse tanks!

Trixie
2009-10-03, 08:50 AM
Awww, some things are too ridiculous even for fantasy :smalltongue:

oxinabox
2009-10-03, 09:21 AM
All the Dragon's are Dead in my world.
maybe not Dead, dead, dead.
But Dead Go style Dead.

12 generations ago was a time for hero's.
Humanity had a war against the dark creatures, the Croem, they were terribly out numbered. and so a band of hero's set out to find the dragons, and bring back an army, ans so they did
But 12 gernations ago 100 dragon elites were shot out of the sky.
12 generations ago Hero's weren't enough.
It's a time for hero's again, and if they aren't enough then humanity is lost forever.

Players are currently considering going looking for the dragons again,
if they do then, they will find that when the dragon army left to fight the croem some other dark race, lauched a terrible assult agaist the dragon kingdom.
And now 300 years latter, there are only tiny hamletes of dragons' under the watch of great wyrms, who were isolated from the kingdom, and were deap in philosphical throught.
And were kinda shocked to find there younger, more active bethern clammering for room, and protection.
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124576)
No dragons and no hope.
The players will trek 12,000 miles across forest, icewaste desert and ocean to find the dragons are hardly better of than humans. infact they're worse.
at least 50 have been mindraped, and there proably a total of 100 left under 7 great wyrms, (in the whole continent), all to scared to even fly outside.