[3.5] So the candy squirrel barbarian PC in my game is kicking ars. @.@

[Pika...]

So, currently the player playing the squirrel (a Kercpa) barbarian who accidentally gained the Candy Subtype and the ability to turn into a Poring 3/days is whooping butt to my shock.

His brother is playing an Adept, and I added a KamB inspired "dogbold" Adept as a DMPC until we manage to get a third player.

They had the worst luck I had ever seen when rolling for random encounters. Not only did they get lost in the wilderness (without realizing it until nearly the end of the session), but I kept rolling 3s and 4s for their encounters % chances (you need a 1-20% chance if I remember correctly). Basically, in the first session they should have bought voyage on a ship and been on the opposite side of the continent. However, instead they barely got to the next town over due to no less than ten rolled encounters in one day/night. :smalleek:

Then a few more the next day.

Yet, Skeash kept cutting down WOLVES with his tiny little tooth-pick, and arrowing medium-sized monstrous spiders all over the place.

Meanwhile the Adept brother kept going under, and the Dogbold Adept had to keep bringing him back between cowarding.

So for any who remember my past threads on this little guy, is he broken, or near it?

Kercpa stats:
http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=875

As was suggested here, as long as he remains a melee character (no rogue or caster levels) I dropped his LA to +1.

[Fhaolan]

Candy subtype? Poring?

Okay, I started off lost on this one. I've used Kerpac in-game before, but I've never heard of these other things. Wassat?

[Eloel]

Could you tell us more about how he built it, what level he is, and what you are throwing at him?

[Pika...]

Candy subtype? Poring?

Okay, I started off lost on this one. I've used Kerpac in-game before, but I've never heard of these other things. Wassat?

I found it using the Search feature on these forums. Funny stuff.

Basically there is a "plane of candy", so a candy subtype. A poring is from the game Ragnarok, and someone stated it up. Both these attributes the PC got by being splashed with "highly chaotic water" in the prior session.

Unless he is in poring form, his stats are still Kercpa basically. Well, except for having a "candy aura" looking like this:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/angrysquirrel.jpg



By the way, can you please tell me of your experience DMing for a Kercpa? I imagine I could learn from you.



p.s. Oh yeah, and both players missed my hints about it being chilly November, so I almost TPKed them right off the bat with Fortitude Saves against cold. They rolled 5 Cold Snaps to boot. :smalleek:

[Johel]

Candy subtype? Poring?

Okay, I started off lost on this one. I've used Kerpac in-game before, but I've never heard of these other things. Wassat?

For his LA, the character seems balanced.
No at-will SLA or other cheese that a player would love to abuse.
The guy is just lucky or you don't set the CR high enough.

The Kercpa is ECL 4 at 1st level.
Wolves are CR 1 but I guess you send them by groups, right ?
Try to drop an ogre on the group and see how they far. They should handle that from the trees. :smallamused:
Then try to drop a whole host of Fiendish Raven...

[Pika...]

Could you tell us more about how he built it, what level he is, and what you are throwing at him?

Well, here is his character sheet (minus the equipment):


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/Skeech2_Page_1.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/Skeech2_Page_2.jpg

[Johel]

Well, here is his character sheet (minus the equipment):

I laugh at the idea of a 1,3 lb squirrel, capable of lifting 87 lb over his head.
:smallamused:

[Pika...]

For his LA, the character seems balanced.
No at-will SLA or other cheese that a player would love to abuse.
The guy is just lucky or you don't set the CR high enough.

The Kercpa is ECL 4 at 1st level.
Wolves are CR 1 but I guess you send them by groups, right ?
Try to drop an ogre on the group and see how they far. They should handle that from the trees. :smallamused:
Then try to drop a whole host of Fiendish Raven...

Well, again on this forum (I believe you were in the discussion as well Johel?) I was advised to drop his LA to +1 if he remained as a pure melee class character, but to up it back to normal if he either went to a roguish or caster class.

The Adept is also an LA+1 race, but for both of them I offered the Races of Faerun optional mechanic where they take a -1 per LA to basically everything (skills, attack, damage, saves, etc) until they reach their proper ECL.

So no, I was throwing wilderness CR1 equivalent encounters against them.

Then again, the wolves kept missing him when he provoked AoOs from stepping into their squares (not one hit), so I guess that was lucky?

[Pika...]

I laugh at the idea of a 1,3 lb squirrel, capable of lifting 87 lb over his head.
:smallamused:

Well, he messed up there.

We redid it, and his max is 75lbs...

[Pika...]

Oh, and they decided that his free explorer's outfit consisted of a Scottish Quilt. >.>


He also did the Star Wars thing with one of the wolves to avoid making Fortitude Saves during the night...

[Johel]

Well, again on this forum (I believe you were in the discussion as well Johel?) I was advised to drop his LA to +1 if he remained as a pure melee class character, but to up it back to normal if he either went to a roguish or caster class.

The Adept is also an LA+1 race, but for both of them I offered the Races of Faerun optional mechanic where they take a -1 per LA to basically everything (skills, attack, damage, saves, etc) until they reach their proper ECL.

So no, I was throwing wilderness CR1 equivalent encounters against them.

Then again, the wolves kept missing him when he provoked AoOs from stepping into their squares (not one hit), so I guess that was lucky?

Don't remember the discussion... but there are many.

Sending 1 wolf after another against a 3-players group is bound to be unchallenging, especially since it can't touch the squirrel.
If the squirrel is lucky on top of that...

Swarm them with lot's of low-CR mooks.

A pack of rats, led by a dire rat.
A fly of fiendish ravens
A horde of tiny monstruous spiders



Star wars thing...

Awesome... Tauntaunt sleepingbag for the win

[Starbuck_II]

Oh, and they decided that his free explorer's outfit consisted of a Scottish Quilt. >.>


He also did the Star Wars thing with one of the wolves to avoid making Fortitude Saves during the night...

That sounds awesome.

I remember Candy subtype thread. Good times.

[Another_Poet]

Well, remember that you are the final arbiter on how many encounters show up to harass the party. Normally the random encounter tables are fine because you don't roll an encounter very often. But, like with all nigh-random events, sometimes you get a bunch in a row by coincidence.

You're not a slave to the dice. If they're just traveling from one town to another, how many wolves (or other carnivores, or bands of thieves, etc.) can there really be? Once they take down one or two, that area should be safe for quite a while. If there are 10 man-eating wolves between two towns, the residents would have abandoned the area long ago. Or hired someone to kill all the wolves before your PCs even got there.

My point is, if the random encounters are making it hard for your low AC char and at the same time throwing a wrench in the entire storyline, stop using random encounters. You can even pretend to roll on the random encounter chart to keep 'em nervous if you want. But they've probably had enough, for now, and want to move on to something that feels like a real accomplishment.

As far as balance, your choices with the Kercpac aren't bad per se, but the rules are there for a reason. Handwaving a LA, allowing an unusual race and adding an unusual template aren't game-breakers - if the others PCs are also getting similar perks. What have you given the Adept to even out the odds? 22 Dex is hard to compete with at low levels. If the Adept hasn't received anything, consider giving him a template (perhaps acquired through some magical mishap? Or as a reward for killing all those wolves, a thank-you from the town magus who assumes the human-looking fellow must have done all the work, while the squirrel is just a pet?). Or some kind of awesome item(s), peferably the sort that will stay useful long-term or scale with level.

[Burley]

Question: Why is this tiny greature wielding medium sized weaponry? Because, that sword he's using shouldn't be a d8, it should be, like... d1.

[Pika...]

Question: Why is this tiny greature wielding medium sized weaponry? Because, that sword he's using shouldn't be a d8, it should be, like... d1.

I thought that myself.

Turns out:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

[Cieyrin]

I thought that myself.

Turns out:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

huh, i thought it would decrease more rapidly than that. Good deal.

[Another_Poet]

huh, i thought it would decrease more rapidly than that. Good deal.


Yeah, that is awesome. I want to be Tiny now.

[Human Paragon 3]

A great sword is what... 6 feet long? So a small great sword would be about three feet and a tiny great sword would be about 18 inches of steel. Really it should probably be a d6, but the rules are the rules, I suppose.

[Another_Poet]

A great sword is what... 6 feet long? So a small great sword would be about three feet and a tiny great sword would be about 18 inches of steel. Really it should probably be a d6, but the rules are the rules, I suppose.


d8 might seem like a lot but think of the Str penalty to damage. Tiny creatures have horrible Str. Except for this squirrel, it seems. (14 Str? My gods.)

[ericgrau]

As was suggested here, as long as he remains a melee character (no rogue or caster levels) I dropped his LA to +1.

But he still took weapon finesse and a ranged weapon, right? I mean +8 dex and +4 con for LA 1? No way man. OTOH don't forget as a tiny creature he must enter an enemy's square to attack it in melee, which provokes an AoO. Try LA 2, and only because of the strength penalty to damage. Really once his damage gets so high that 2-3 points don't matter, I'd be tempted to stick with the original LA 3. OTOH if the rest of the party is equally crazy, you can stick with LA 2.

And I don't think a greatsword is as tall as its wielder. Maybe 4-5 feet, putting the squirrel's sword at a foot or so. As for the drawback of having a smaller weapon, that's only 4-5 points of damage vs a greatsword and just a couple vs a bow. Meanwhile as a small creature he gets +2 AB and +2 AC, which means a lot more hits for him and a lot less for the baddies. It evens out now and when his damage gets higher it'll be a net advantage.

Another alternative is to send grapplers at the kercpa until he gets smart enough to carry a light weapon. After the weapon it'll be like picking up a chainsaw pointed in the wrong direction. Sure, it can't get away, but...

[Fhaolan]

I used Kercpa's back in 2nd edition, where there weren't as many options for using Dex instead of Str, so my experiences aren't quite as relevant.

The only 3rd edition stuff I've done that would be relevant is an archer-type Fighter/Rogue reincarnated as a squirrel. The problem with that is that the Kercpa is a -4 Str, whereas a squirrel is like -8 Str or something. It makes a *big* difference. This character is relying on his Sneak Attack damage for everything, because the best he can do is 2pts damage otherwise. Mind you, the image of a squirrel standing beneath someone and firing his tiny longbow straight up for a Sneak Attack... yeah, that's fun.

The big thing to remember is that unless you're trading with a lot of other Kercpas, Pixies, and the like, he will never get regular equipment that fits once the campaign has started. And I believe the auto-sizing for magic equipment has limitations as well, but I can't remember what those limitations are.

[Pika...]

So did I just unleash a tiny little colorful monster?

If so, how do I handle this "unbalance" as a DM?


ps. I am glad you all liked the Star Wars things. We laughed a bit about that. I ruled the squirrel is currently stained blood red. :smallbiggrin:


pps. Anyone know if D&D soap is enough to remove blood like that?

[Starbuck_II]

So did I just unleash a tiny little colorful monster?

If so, how do I handle this "unbalance" as a DM?


ps. I am glad you all liked the Star Wars things. We laughed a bit about that. I ruled the squirrel is currently stained blood red. :smallbiggrin:


pps. Anyone know if D&D soap is enough to remove blood like that?

The spell Prestigitation will clean that up.

[Pika...]

The spell Prestigitation will clean that up.

Low-Magic setting. :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Too low for cantrips? Wouldn't that be a No-Magic setting?:smallsmile:

[Pika...]

Too low for cantrips? Wouldn't that be a No-Magic setting?:smallsmile:

Basically the only starting magic class is adept. And even then you need some background as to why. So I guess it might. :smallsmile:

Athough the party currently has two. >.>

[The Glyphstone]

You should totally add Prestidigitation to the adept spell list then. It's been unanimously voted by the entire membership of People Who Know Anything as the Best Cantrip Of All Time And Space.:smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

If so, how do I handle this "unbalance" as a DM?

pps. Anyone know if D&D soap is enough to remove blood like that?
Tell the player you screwed up and add another LA. He'll still be on the strong side of LA 2, but that can be his consolation. If it's too much trouble for him to delevel, just make him stay at his current level until he levels up twice.

Blood stains are hard to get out. Older stains are harder than fresh. Quick google search says to soak in salt water.

[awa]

i do think the squirrel is a little bit to powerful for la 1 hes got a lot of powerful abbilities and highly uneven ability scores. but i think the bigger problem is his companion is a low level npc class caster. as he gets higher level and his casting ability increase then maybe the party will even out a little bit.

[PinkysBrain]

The adept is a NPC class, he doesn't have the resources for that many encounters ... now it's still magic, so in the end it will be powerful ... but in the meantime he needs wands and scrolls.

[Pika...]

I see. I see.

So many issues.

I believe I forgot to mention he is using the Races of Faerun rules for a LA+1 race, so he is currently taking a -1 to practically everything. Does that help at all? Or should I still add another LA and/or keep him at the same level for an extra level?


And I know the adept is an NPC class, but this is a world where there are only a handful of magic weapons, where only generals and kings have access to a potion of healing or two, and battles are mostly melee and more militaristic in style (with large combat rules hopefully going to be used at mid to high level).

Not to mention I focus on the roleplaying significance of being a vessel of one's god, so if players play smart that adds to their "power". I am waiting to see if the current adept tries to recruit followers through roleplaying/preaching. The last one did not even realize it. :smallconfused:

ps. Oh, and I jsut realized it will be a rare event when the party faces opponents who also have healing magic, or any magic, so does that help even the adept out?

[Another_Poet]

Here is my analysis.

Youhave very good reasons why the Adept has to eb an Adept, and can't be more powerful. That's fine.

The enemis don't have healing magic either, which means they won't be as powerful. Also fine.

But your squirrel is very powerful. That's the real problem - not that the Adept is weak or that the enemies are weak, but that the squirrel is not weak. Generally all party members need to be roughly evenly matched for everyone to have fun.

My suggested fix is not to nerf the squirrel, but to offer freebies to the Adept(s) to get them on an equal playing field.

It's a low magic world, but you do have a talking squirrel who can turn into candy. So surely you can bend the rules for the Adepts as well? Give them special abilities, or SLA's or something. You can attribute this to a bloodline or their faith or whatever. A clever package of SLA's can make a PC really happy. Imagine: Haste 1/day, Gaseous Form 1/day, Sanctuary 2/day, Suggestion 3/day, Burning Hands 3/day, Detect Magic at-will. Now they have a little more attack power, a lot more utility and can basically feel good next to a candy squirrel.

Alternately, come up with a mechanic for their divine favour, and allow it to fuel special abilities. Let this be their very own special thing, that the candy squirrel can't do because he's not an Adept.

If nothing else, give them each an extra level.

edit: to answer your other question, no, I don't think the -1's to the squirrel really even it out because he has something like +4 to hit, +4 to AC and +2 hp/level.

[Pika...]

Thanks for the constant help Poet. :smallsmile:


1. I am actually currently experiment with the current adept PC (with his permission). The two things he has now are:

a) I am adding either a focus or material component for each spell. The daily spell limit only applies to spells using focuses (focuses do not get sued up during a spell's casting, so can be used indefinitely). Material Component spells on the other hand, like I have made the Cure Light-Medium spells into (with Cure Serious being a "quest" component search), can be cast limitless times as long as you have the component to use up (aka "burn") during the casting process. (They already burned down a bit of the High Elven ancient forest in the first session with the candle spell. >_>)

b) He receives Commune with his deity once per week.


Good? Bad?

2. Do you have any other suggestions besides the SLAs per day? I do not like it much because it screams of 4.0 to me.

[Another_Poet]

can be cast limitless times as long as you have the component to use up (aka "burn") during the casting process.

Wow, awesome, that is an awesome start.


b) He receives Commune with his deity once per week.

Interesting.


Good? Bad?

Good, though the power level of the Commune depends entirely on how you DM it.


2. Do you have any other suggestions besides the SLAs per day? I do not like it much because it screams of 4.0 to me.

Yeah, the only thing missing at this point is something that makes the Adepts useful in combat. Unlimited spells off the Adept list is sweet, and so is getting advice from God. But Adepts still can't hit anything and I'm not sure what their armour proficiency is like offhand.

Consider adding a few offensive or battlefield control spells to the Adept list (maybe mix in some Druid spells?). Otherwise what you've done so far should help a lot. A feat or a random +2 to a stat of the player's choice might also help balance with the squirrel.

[Toliudar]

I find it difficult to picture this guy as an effective melee combatant, especially against wolves. With a 0 reach, he has to enter the wolf's square to attack. Wolf gets attack of opportunity as he does so, and gets a free trip attempt (at a +8 modifier due to the size difference). What am I missing? I mean, if it's just him rolling super-well in one or two fights, that's not a problem to worry about.

[ericgrau]

I see. I see.

So many issues.

I believe I forgot to mention he is using the Races of Faerun rules for a LA+1 race, so he is currently taking a -1 to practically everything. Does that help at all? Or should I still add another LA and/or keep him at the same level for an extra level?

That should counter half of an LA, ya. But he's already on the high end of LA 2. I mean a -1 only goes so far against a +6 to hit (or vs. less bonuses to everything else). So I'd still dock him an LA, unless that means he gets a -2 to everything. That might be too much.

Ya, the adept thing also seems like an issue. That's like having LA 2-3 at a level when casters are already weak. So you're up to a 3-4 level disparity It'd be less of an issue of adepts had any battlefield control spells, since those still work at low level. Instead he has 1 and only 1 which he gets at level 16.

Then later you're gonna have trouble because the lack of magic items will imbalance things, most against the barbarian. And it's not just something you can fix with more or less LA, because some stats are affected and some aren't. But, hey, this is what happens when people implement a low magic system. You could try a free vow of poverty feat or something to counter that, or say that only the PCs find magic items.

[Inhuman Bot]

I'm sure someone has said this, but...

A squirrel that turns into candy.... In a low magic setting.... bwa?

[Licensedtoill]

I would think that there would be a lot of collectors wanting to capture your candy squirrel, especially in a low magic world. It would HAVE to give you some sort of awesome power, right?:smalltongue: