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EnnPeeCee
2009-09-29, 12:35 PM
So, say a rogue throws an alchemists fire at a group of flat-footed enemies. Does sneak attack apply here? Does sneak attack only effect one enemy? Or all? I know precision damage only works on the first attack of a volley, but am not sure if splash weapons would be considered a volley. If there is a RAW ruling for this, please let me know where.

Eloel
2009-09-29, 12:43 PM
Just to start the commentary, I'm 100% sure it works on the target you hit.

Rest is beyond me.

tyckspoon
2009-09-29, 12:45 PM
The rule of thumb is that precision damage can be applied when you make an attack roll (for Sneak Attack, for example, it has to be a situation where it is relevant whether or not the target can use his Dex bonus to AC.) The guy you throw the fire at takes Sneak Attack damage; the guys standing around him do not.

DrGonzo
2009-09-29, 12:50 PM
I always thought that a rogue using sneak attack would be hitting a weak spot for the extra damage, like slicing someone's kidney in half or something. Splash weapons can't be used this precise, so no sneak attack damage with splash weapons..

- my 2 cp

ericgrau
2009-09-29, 12:51 PM
RAW says you need precision to reach a vital organ, deny the target dex or flank, and you must be able to see the target. FAQ says yes, it's allowed with splash weapons since it's an attack. IMO there's no way you can focus on a vital organ like that. If it does apply then it applies once per attack roll like any thrown weapon. "Volley" refers to spells with multiple rays.

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 12:54 PM
RAW says you need precision to reach a vital organ, deny the target dex or flank, and you must be able to see the target. FAQ says yes, it's allowed with splash weapons since it's an attack. IMO there's no way you can focus on a vital organ like that. If it does apply then it applies once per attack roll like any thrown weapon. "Volley" refers to spells with multiple rays.

I agree that it wouldn't work on the splash part, but the target would be subject to sneak attack:

"Oh god my face, it's on fire!"

ericgrau
2009-09-29, 12:56 PM
A fighter can do that fluff just as well, so I doubt that's sneak attack. Generally being on fire hurts a lot, except for high level adventurers with lots of HP. It helps for running through burning buildings too.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-29, 12:57 PM
Ok, so most likely it would still apply to the primary target. Makes sense.

Edit: RAW, splash weapons are still called weapons, require an attack roll, and do damage to the target. I'm pretty sure this allows a sneak attack.

gdiddy
2009-09-29, 12:58 PM
Yes, but only rogues can kidney shot you with a grenade.

ericgrau
2009-09-29, 12:59 PM
Ok, so most likely it would still apply to the primary target. Makes sense.

What? It's not a spell volley b/c it's not a spell. It should apply to all targets if it applies. The issue is whether or not it's precise enough to apply sneak attack at all. IMO no, but FAQ says yes.

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 01:01 PM
A fighter can do that fluff just as well, so I doubt that's sneak attack.

Everything besides "I roll a 1d20+ modifiers vs his AC; do I get to roll 2d6 + modifiers and subtract it from his HP?" is fluff.

Precision damage is the ability to make opportunistic attacks vs. opponents that are unaware or off guard. A fighter can hit someone in a vital spot just as well as a rogue, it's just that the rogue, when making a sneak attack, is doing a sort of de facto called shot. The fighter has no such luxury.


What? It's not a spell volley b/c it's not a spell. It should apply to all targets if it applies. The issue is whether or not it's precise enough to apply sneak attack at all. IMO no, but FAQ says yes.

Volley is an attack type. Scorching Ray has the volley attack type. So does Multishot.

Quit nerfing rogues.

Eloel
2009-09-29, 01:01 PM
You can only apply SA damage dice once when you shoot with Manyshot (another volley attack). I believe it's the same thing with splash weapon.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-29, 01:02 PM
What? It's not a spell volley b/c it's not a spell. It should apply to all targets if it applies. The issue is whether or not it's precise enough to apply sneak attack at all. IMO no, but FAQ says yes.

I was just reading a little more on splash weapons, and while no they aren't a volley, the splash damage isn't dealt from making an attack roll. Not sure if this has any effect on the precision damage.

Boci
2009-09-29, 01:12 PM
I always thought that a rogue using sneak attack would be hitting a weak spot for the extra damage, like slicing someone's kidney in half or something. Splash weapons can't be used this precise, so no sneak attack damage with splash weapons..

- my 2 cp

But a halfling rogue could not reach a dragon's vital organs with his dagger.

ericgrau
2009-09-29, 01:20 PM
Everything besides "I roll a 1d20+ modifiers vs his AC; do I get to roll 2d6 + modifiers and subtract it from his HP?" is fluff.

Precision damage is the ability to make opportunistic attacks vs. opponents that are unaware or off guard. A fighter can hit someone in a vital spot just as well as a rogue, it's just that the rogue, when making a sneak attack, is doing a sort of de facto called shot. The fighter has no such luxury.

...

Quit nerfing rogues.



The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.
Sneak attack is a kind of precision damage so the hit must be precise. And it's not a nerf as it doesn't apply to the rogue's typical attacks, i.e. a weapon. It's an obscure exploit to get sneak attack on touch attacks that shouldn't exist even if it is legal. If you like rogues then boost their attacks with normal weapons.

As for volleys, ya you only get 1 sneak attack on multishot too. But when chucking multiple thrown weapons that's not a "volley", it's multiple attacks that each get sneak attack. Spells with multiple rays that give mutiple attack rolls OTOH only give 1 sneak attack. Go figure.


But a halfling rogue could not reach a dragon's vital organs with his dagger.
Correct, and the sneak attack rules say so specifically. He does not get sneak attack unless he uses a range weapon or somehow gets beyond the dragon's limbs in melee.

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 01:25 PM
Sneak attack is a kind of precision damage as the hit must be precise. And it's not a nerf as it doesn't apply to the rogue's typical attacks, i.e. a weapon. It's an obscure exploit to get sneak attack on touch attacks that shouldn't exist even if it is legal. If you like rogues then boost their attacks with normal weapons.

It's totally legal, and makes sense. You're face is definitely a vital spot. Having your face on fire is uncomfortable, to say the least.


As for volleys, ya you only get 1 sneak attack on multishot too. But when chucking multiple thrown weapons that's not a "volley", it's multiple attacks that each get sneak attack. Spells with multiple rays that give mutiple attack rolls OTOH only give 1 sneak attack. Go figure.

I'm not talking about multiple thrown weapons, I'm talking about the damage from splash on a splash weapon. Since that doesn't have an associated attack roll, it cannot do sneak attack damage.

ericgrau
2009-09-29, 01:31 PM
And I wasn't talking about splash (though what you said on splash is true). That's just miscommunication.

As for the face on fire, you can have your whole body immersed or surrounded by flame, face included, and not be damaged so much. Us commoners, sure, but not adventurers. It's still not a vital organ. Most sword stabs hurt a lot too, even if it's just to the gut. Heck I could imagine even a knife sticking out of an arm is fairly traumatic.

Boci
2009-09-29, 01:33 PM
Sneak attack is a kind of precision damage as the hit must be precise.

Not teally. You could rule that timing is the key to the extra damage.


It's still not a vital organ

How does a halfling's dagger reach a fully grown dragon's organs?

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 01:36 PM
And I wasn't talking about splash (though what you said on splash is true). That's just miscommunication.

As for the face on fire, you can have your whole body immersed or surrounded by flame, face included, and not be damaged so much. Us commoners, sure, but not adventurers. It's still not a vital organ. Most sword stabs hurt a lot too, even if it's just to the gut. Heck I could imagine even a knife sticking out of an arm is fairly traumatic.

???
Even to the gut? Is that a typo?
Getting your guts damaged is probably one of the worst pains out there.

ericgrau
2009-09-29, 01:41 PM
Exactly. And yet it's not sneak attack. It's a typical fighter stab. That's the whole point. Pain does not mean it's a vital organ.


Not teally. You could rule that timing is the key to the extra damage.
Except that's not what the sneak attack rules say. It's quite specifically precision.


How does a halfling's dagger reach a fully grown dragon's organs?
Like I said it doesn't and you don't get sneak attack damage. The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm) are also quite specific about this. Get higher first or get a bow.

Boci
2009-09-29, 01:47 PM
Like I said it doesn't and you don't get sneak attack damage. The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm) are also quite specific about this. Get higher first or get a bow.

Oh come on. First, you claim this isn't a nerf. It blatantly is. Then you say the rules suggest a DM consider the size of rogue and victim to determine if sneak attack is possible? At what age catagory can a rogue no longer sneak attack a dragon with a dagger (according to the rules)?




Except that's not what the sneak attack rules say. It's quite specifically precision.

Precision in timing. I think you are getting caught up here in the flavour of the ability.

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 01:48 PM
Exactly. And yet it's not sneak attack. It's a typical fighter stab. That's the whole point. Pain does not mean it's a vital organ.

Eh?
No, a typical fighter stab is "I make an attack roll for 1d20+ modifiers; if it hits my opponent takes 2d6 + modifiers HP damage". There's nothing about guts or vital spots in there whatsoever.

A fighter may like to hit someone in the guts, but anything other than the final last 11 HP on a creature are "flesh wounds".