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View Full Version : [3.5] Tenser's Transformation and the Factotum



Paulus
2009-09-29, 03:24 PM
Say you wanted to augment your straight Factotum for melee, would Tenser's transformation be worth it in this case? The main draw back I see is that it won't allow you to use spell complete items or triggers, which means no wands or scrolls etc. Is this a plausible way to get full bab, or is there any other way to get full bab and combat bonuses from a spell without multiclassing for Divine Power?

Edit: as a matter of fact, is it really such a draw back? wands and scrolls really don't seem that useful for a Factotum. But being able to increase their melee ability (bab specifically) with magic as a Spell like ability seems decent enough. Or am I missing the importance of wands and scrolls vs. Combat ability for the Factotum?

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 05:16 PM
The factotum is all about versatility. Being able to hulk out as a warrior at the cost of casting 1/day could definitely be useful.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-29, 05:30 PM
If you have UMD you can still use wands&scrolls with UMD if you have used Tensor's Transformation.

Paulus
2009-09-29, 05:32 PM
If you have UMD you can still use wands&scrolls with UMD if you have used Tensor's Transformation.

Huh, so it is a good alternative, Ill have to keep it in mind for my Melee Factotum. J-J-J-J-JAWESOME! Thanks guys!

Akal Saris
2009-09-29, 05:54 PM
Well, you can always UMD a wand of Divine Power, so the factotum does have that option available as well. And even with the loss of the ability to use spell trigger items normally, logically you could still UMD them if necessary.

I'd say that it's probably worth knowing, though as a DM, I would house-rule that this prohibits use of his other spell-likes for the duration of the spell.

Another good spell to cast would be the rogue version of this, Nightstalker's Transformation. Tenser's is better in most cases though.

Korivan
2009-09-29, 06:11 PM
Don't forget theirs a 2nd level spell that gives you fighter feats, has decent duration. Important if you want Power Attack, Leap Attack and few others. Especially if you don't want to use up your feats for fighter stuff. Definatly worth using those for Font of Inspiration, assuming your DM lets you have them.

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 06:16 PM
Nightstalker's Transformation?

Korivan
2009-09-29, 06:22 PM
Nightstalker's Transformation?

Boosts your dex, gives you sneak attack, and some other rouge like abilities. The rouge version of the fighter transformation.

On an afterthought, wonder if its possible to make a clerical transformation.

Cieyrin
2009-09-29, 06:29 PM
Boosts your dex, gives you sneak attack, and some other rouge like abilities. The rouge version of the fighter transformation.

On an afterthought, wonder if its possible to make a clerical transformation.

What would a clerical version even be like? you'd suddenly gain turning ability or cast divine spells with your slots? that sounds like you're making a mini-chameleon to me.

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 06:35 PM
Boosts your dex, gives you sneak attack, and some other rouge like abilities. The rouge version of the fighter transformation.



Was more of a "where?" than a "what?".

Grumman
2009-09-29, 06:49 PM
Was more of a "where?" than a "what?".
IIRC, it's in the Spell Compendium.

There's also a Psionic version, Mental Pinnacle, in the EPH.

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 06:52 PM
EPH?

Do you mean this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) spell?

Paulus
2009-09-29, 07:13 PM
Mental Pinnacle (psion emulation) EPH
Nightstalker's Transformation (rogue emulation) SC
Tenser's Transformation (fighter emulation) PHB
Divine Power (Clericzilla emulation) PHB

Missing anything?
Thanks a lot by the way!

sonofzeal
2009-09-29, 07:17 PM
"Buying a shortsword of throwing" = Soulknife emulation?

Korivan
2009-09-29, 07:20 PM
Was more of a "where?" than a "what?".

Sorry, its in the MIC

EDIT: NINJED!!!!!

quick_comment
2009-09-29, 07:21 PM
Why does tenser's transformation stop the factotum from casting more spells. Doesnt he use SLAs, not actual spells?

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 07:42 PM
Sorry, its in the MIC

EDIT: NINJED!!!!!

What is a spell doing in the magic item compendium?

Cieyrin
2009-09-29, 07:56 PM
Mental Pinnacle (psion emulation) EPH
Nightstalker's Transformation (rogue emulation) SC
Tenser's Transformation (fighter emulation) PHB
Divine Power (Clericzilla emulation) PHB

Missing anything?
Thanks a lot by the way!

I wouldn't say Divine Power is cleric emulation so much as it's clerics emulating melee.

Paulus
2009-09-29, 07:59 PM
I wouldn't say Divine Power is cleric emulation so much as it's clerics emulating melee.

Paladin emulation perhaps?

Quietus
2009-09-29, 08:04 PM
Boosts your dex, gives you sneak attack, and some other rouge like abilities. The rouge version of the fighter transformation.

On an afterthought, wonder if its possible to make a clerical transformation.

For those times when you REALLY need to look pretty! Rouge-like abilities, buy them today!

Disclaimer : These rouge-like abilities may or may not make you feel more like a rogue. This poster claims no liability for you getting yourself into wacky situations.

sonofzeal
2009-09-29, 08:10 PM
For those times when you REALLY need to look pretty! Rouge-like abilities, buy them today!

Disclaimer : These rouge-like abilities may or may not make you feel more like a rogue. This poster claims no liability for you getting yourself into wacky situations.
Fun things happen when a Rogue or Rogue-like character UMD's Nightstalkers.

In other news, to quote wikipedia - Rouge, also called blush, is a cosmetic typically used by women to redden the cheeks so as to provide a more youthful appearance, and to emphasise the cheekbones. Rogue, also called skillmonkey, is a D&D class that specializes in trapfinding and stabbing people in the spleen so as to kill them lots. Please don't get them confused. It causes me physical pain.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-29, 08:14 PM
Boosts your dex, gives you sneak attack, and some other rouge like abilities. The rouge version of the fighter transformation.

On an afterthought, wonder if its possible to make a clerical transformation.

Wouldn't that be transvestite's transformation?

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 08:38 PM
^What if they are already female?

Makeup Transformation sounds really magical girly.

Akal Saris
2009-09-29, 08:49 PM
Wouldn't that be transvestite's transformation?

I'm just a transsexual transmuter from Transylvania...

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-29, 08:56 PM
^What if they are already female?

Makeup Transformation sounds really magical girly.D&D is like The Interweb. There are no girls.

Korivan
2009-09-29, 09:27 PM
What is a spell doing in the magic item compendium?

Whoops, brain fart. I meant the Spell Compendium....

deuxhero
2009-09-29, 10:14 PM
D&D is like The Interweb. There are no girls.


Of coarse I know that, I meant the character (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Crossplayer).

Lamech
2009-09-29, 10:39 PM
Wouldn't turning into a hydra be better? Don't they give a 12 attacks a standard action. Probably would work really well with some buffs.

Paulus
2009-09-30, 12:17 AM
Wouldn't turning into a hydra be better? Don't they give a 12 attacks a standard action. Probably would work really well with some buffs.

Yeah, but you only get to cast polymorph once a day as you can not reuse your spell after you cast em until the next day and you can't prepare more than one of any spell. Average 3-4 encounter a day. So, Tenser's, Nighstalker, HD appropriate Dragon, wand of Divine Power. Should be good eh?

taltamir
2009-09-30, 02:14 AM
What would a clerical version even be like? you'd suddenly gain turning ability or cast divine spells with your slots? that sounds like you're making a mini-chameleon to me.

transforms you into some sort of celestial while giving you their cleric casting abilities for duration of spell?
A bit cheesy though :)

Myrmex
2009-09-30, 02:17 AM
transforms you into some sort of celestial while giving you their cleric casting abilities for duration of spell?
A bit cheesy though :)

The spell you are looking for is Shapechange. Turn into a Solar.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 02:19 AM
The spell you are looking for is Shapechange. Turn into a Solar.

that is where I got my idea for it.
Actually, why even BOTHER with tensers or the other transformation? just shapechange into something really warriory or really theify

Paulus
2009-09-30, 01:11 PM
that is where I got my idea for it.
Actually, why even BOTHER with tensers or the other transformation? just shapechange into something really warriory or really theify

Again this is for a Factotum where of course:


Yeah, but you only get to cast polymorph once a day as you can not reuse your spell after you cast em until the next day and you can't prepare more than one of any spell. Average 3-4 encounter a day. So, Tenser's, Nighstalker, HD appropriate Dragon, wand of Divine Power. Should be good eh?



Also, WOW can't believe I missed this for so long.

Why does tenser's transformation stop the factotum from casting more spells. Doesnt he use SLAs, not actual spells?

I'm sure he can't for the same reason the Factotums Spell like abilities don't count as actual spell slots. Can't let players have too much of a benefit, since arcane casting is so powerful and all. :roll eyes: In other words they probably count just enough to where they don't count yet not enough to count when it matters.

Myrmex
2009-09-30, 03:48 PM
You lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell trigger or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list.

I wonder if SLAs count as "spellcasting ability". I think they would.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-30, 03:57 PM
I wonder if SLAs count as "spellcasting ability". I think they would.

SLAs and spells are separate enough that they don't count as each other. Otherwise a Warlock would be eligible to enter PrCs that require the ability to cast spells. RAW< they can only enter such PrCs if they require a caster level, but not spellcasting ability.

Paulus
2009-09-30, 04:20 PM
As a side note I just learned that Factotum can't use spell trigger or completion items anyway without UMD because they don't actually have their own spell list.

Which also technically means they shouldn't be able to take the item creation feats. so, no scribe scroll, no wands, unless bought.


Read this from the Dungeonscape Q/A session, reposted here for convenience.

[Q: Dear Guest Sage,
Does the factotum (Dungeonscape p14) meet the requirements for activating spell trigger or spell completion items, such as wands and scrolls?
--Rupert

A: The factotum lacks a spell list. While he chooses spells from the sorcerer/wizard lists, this is not the same as having a true class spell list. Thus, a factotum cannot use spell trigger or spell completion items without Use Magic Device or some similar ability.

Indon
2009-10-01, 01:49 PM
Actually, why even BOTHER with tensers or the other transformation? just shapechange into something really warriory or really theify

Tenser's Transformation would boost the BAB of many warriory forms (all racial HD types except Dragons, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, and Outsiders), and functions like a Barbarian's rage otherwise.

You could make for a much more potent Black Pudding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#blackPudding), for instance.

Paulus
2009-10-01, 03:06 PM
Tenser's Transformation would boost the BAB of many warriory forms (all racial HD types except Dragons, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, and Outsiders), and functions like a Barbarian's rage otherwise.

You could make for a much more potent Black Pudding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#blackPudding), for instance.

Good point. The main attraction is the increase in bab and it never occurred to me that some monsters or other forms for that matter don't have full bab. But on another note...

You know I have been searching far and wide and have yet to actually find a resource that says Factotums can't take the item creation feats. I found it particularly odd that Factotum spells count as spell like abilities yet you can't cast any spells with Xp components but must provide any material component, which is absolutely unlike any Spell like ability. Therefore, it leaves me questioning the actual place of the Factotum's Spell like abilities. It won't qualify him for PRCs that require caster levels, and Spell like abilities don't qualify you for Item Creation feats, but the Factotum's spell like abilities are unlike other spell like abilities and more like spells. Therefore, I wonder if they really COULD qualify for item creation feats?

The feats themselves specify only a caster level of X which the factotums have for there Spell like abilities equal to their class level. Do I have an argument here or I am I just musing? What do you think?

technophile
2009-10-01, 03:27 PM
As a side note I just learned that Factotum can't use spell trigger or completion items anyway without UMD because they don't actually have their own spell list.

Which also technically means they shouldn't be able to take the item creation feats. so, no scribe scroll, no wands, unless bought.
That's an idiotic ruling. By that logic, archivists can't use scrolls, since they don't have a class list either (they can learn any divine spell, but have no class list of their own).

That's hard to square with the fact that they get Scribe Scroll as a free feat at level 1, and don't get UMD as a class skill.

PinkysBrain
2009-10-01, 04:21 PM
That's an idiotic ruling. By that logic, archivists can't use scrolls, since they don't have a class list either (they can learn any divine spell, but have no class list of their own).
No that's just being overly literalistic IMO.

The factotum doesn't cast or learn spells as a Vancian caster as opposed to the archivist ... it can just get some of them as Sp's, it's an entirely different mechanic. He doesn't benefit from +1 spellcasting PrCs either.

Paulus
2009-10-01, 04:25 PM
Ninja fix'd* it's an entirely different mechanic.

Yet how does that mechanic apply to creating items? They can mimic a spell and thus mimic a spell like ability. They have a caster level for this equal to their own level. But they don't actually have a list nor a caster level, so, it is conceivable that they could cast a spell for the item, and conceivable that they could indeed craft the item... but can they?

This is what is boggling me. Haven't found an official answer on it yet.

PinkysBrain
2009-10-01, 04:27 PM
Sp's are explicitly sufficient for item creation AFAIR.

Here it is :

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect.

Paulus
2009-10-01, 04:33 PM
Sp's are explicitly sufficient for item creation AFAIR.

Here it is :
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect.


Which means one could even use UMD... huh... may I ask where you got that quote from?

So I guess now it just becomes a matter of sniffing out whether or not the Factotums Caster level for his spell like abilities counts at least for item creation feats, since they don't count for PRCs.

technophile
2009-10-01, 05:21 PM
No that's just being overly literalistic IMO.
But that's what the quote says. It specifically says that the Factotum cannot use spell trigger/completion items because it does not have a class spell list.

That's laughable.