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Kylarra
2009-09-29, 05:53 PM
So Fatespinner has ridiculously easy pre-reqs, requiring only 5 random skillpoints to be spent in profession (gambler) outside of your normal caster-y things. In return you get some rather underwhelming, relatively speaking, rerolls and minor tweaks, but as your capstone, you can "sacrifice" a caster level to free action boost or drop someone's saves by 10 1/day.

Has anyone actually taken fatespinner for its full 5 levels, and thinks it is worth the lost CL? My initial thought was that it was almost worth it, but then I saw the HD cap. :smallfrown:

What prestige classes have abilities that are worth losing CLs for?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-29, 05:54 PM
Not worth it, but tempting.

Myou
2009-09-29, 05:56 PM
It's a trap!

Anything worth using your precious one-a-day ability on has more HD than you. :smallannoyed:

Doc Roc
2009-09-29, 06:00 PM
I've never met someone who took the fifth level.
War-weaver, in my opinion and the opinion of much of the CO community, is worth the hit. Malconvoker, likewise. This should give you a good idea of the minimum bar.

taltamir
2009-09-29, 06:05 PM
the batman actually lists one or two exceptions to the rule who might be worth the CL loss...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002

Fatespinner: this one's good. Really good. At the low, low cost of 5 ranks in Profession(gambler), you gain your Fatespinner level in "spin points", which you can add to spell DCs one at a time or all together--later, you get to automatically stabilize, make yourself remake a save, make friends or enemies remake saves... and the first four out of five levels don't lose a caster level. The fifth one DOES, but it lets you give an enemy with HD equal to or less than yours -10 to a save once a day... which is possibly worth it, since it can mean a guaranteed kill. The first 4 out of 5 levels are a no-brainer; any wizard would do well to take them. The fifth one--think carefully, but it can be worth it. Due to the HD limitation, it usually isn't--but it can be.

Kylarra
2009-09-29, 06:05 PM
It's a trap!

Anything worth using your precious one-a-day ability on has more HD than you. :smallannoyed:Yeah that's what I was thinking. :smallfrown:

Myou
2009-09-29, 06:09 PM
Yeah that's what I was thinking. :smallfrown:

You could just take the HD limit away entirely - there are plenty of ways a foe can protect himself, and it's once a day anyway.

As it is, you get the ability, once a day, to make an enemy mook whose CR is probably so low you could solo him as an 'Easy' encounter, probably fail one save that he would probably have failed anyway.

taltamir
2009-09-29, 06:10 PM
You could just take the HD limit away entirely - there are plenty of ways a foe can protect himself, and it's once a day anyway.

As it is, you get the ability, once a day, to make an enemy mook whose CR is probably so low you could solo him as an 'Easy' encounter, probably fail one save that he would probably have failed anyway.

pretty much, definitely a trap.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-29, 06:22 PM
I agree, it's a trap. First four levels aren't bad though. A reroll at the right time can mean everything.

Now, what's worth lost CL....hmmm, I can't think of a single feat that's good enough, but a couple feats or nice abilities might be. If it's not worth at least a ninth level spell, it's not worth screwing around with. Unless epic of course, in which case, do whatcha want.

Gorbash
2009-09-29, 06:49 PM
Mind you, there's a difference between a Caster Level and a Spellcasting level. Former can be boosted in a lot of ways, spellcasting can't.

Artanis
2009-09-29, 07:29 PM
the batman actually lists one or two exceptions to the rule who might be worth the CL loss...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002

Don't forget Recaster:


--Ninja Note: This class is awesome. If you're a changeling wizard, *take* it.

:smallbiggrin:

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 07:39 PM
Swiftblade gets a lot of love.

AllisterH
2009-09-29, 07:40 PM
For both divine and arcane prestige classes, the ToB ones are worth it (JPM and RKV)

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 07:42 PM
Oh yeah, some of the hybrid classes can be worth it, like Anima Mage, Ultimate Magus, and quick entry Cerebremancer.

PId6
2009-09-29, 08:10 PM
Don't forget Malconvoker!

sofawall
2009-09-29, 08:18 PM
I've never met someone who took the fifth level.
War-weaver, in my opinion and the opinion of much of the CO community, is worth the hit. Malconvoker, likewise. This should give you a good idea of the minimum bar.

Does nobody read posts?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-29, 08:24 PM
Repetition is a good way to add emphasis, to prove consensus, and to point out things people might overlook.

Look into Malconvoker, BTW.

PId6
2009-09-29, 08:28 PM
Does nobody read posts?
...

Eh, what the heck, that class is so awesome it deserves reiteration.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-29, 08:31 PM
Manifests deja vu:
...

Eh, what the heck, that class is so awesome it deserves reiteration.And again:
...

Eh, what the heck, that class is so awesome it deserves reiteration.And again:
...

Eh, what the heck, that class is so awesome it deserves reiteration.And again:
...

Eh, what the heck, that class is so awesome it deserves reiteration.And...oh, nevermind.

Zaq
2009-09-29, 09:10 PM
I've heard it said that Sand Shaper, from It's Hot Outside (occasionally also known as Sandstorm, but that other moniker makes me giggle every time) is worth it on a Sorcerer. The second caster level loss probably isn't worth it, but thirty-something spells known, most of them actually good, at the cost of a single level? Yeah, I'd take it.

From the same book, I've heard a lot of love for Walker in the Waste. But then, anything that gets you to be something as awesome as a Dry Lich with precisely zero (0) shenanigans is worth looking at.

Virtuoso, from Complete Adventurer, loses a caster level, but it still sees a lot of use. Granted, that's because Sublime Chord usually finds its way into the mix, but still.

I've personally played a Dread Witch, from Heroes of Horror, and I didn't regret it. It's not top-level optimization by any stretch, but I kept pace with the rest of the party just fine. If your GM agrees with mine that the fourth-level ability lets you affect immune-to-mind-affecting enemies with your fear spells, it's totally worth it. (The RAW really could go either way.)

DragoonWraith
2009-09-29, 09:11 PM
I would agree and say that yes, Malconvoker is that cool to be mentioned four times in one post.

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 09:36 PM
Repetition is a good way to add emphasis, to prove consensus, and to point out things people might overlook.

Look into Malconvoker, BTW.

I was listening to NPR, and heard that the repetition of points in public forums (the internet, student government, town hall meetings, etc.) is an American thing. Can't remember the context of the discussion.


...uh, carry on.

Talya
2009-09-29, 09:51 PM
I was listening to NPR, and heard that the repetition of points in public forums (the internet, student government, town hall meetings, etc.) is an American thing. Can't remember the context of the discussion.


...uh, carry on.

Did anyone mention Malconvoker?

I've seen some Ultimate Magus builds that do good things despite a lost caster level getting into it...for a Theurge class at that. Neatest one was a wizard/beguiler/ultimate magus with practiced spellcasting on the beguiler side to ensure wizard gets advanced most of the time. It looked worth it...

Tyndmyr
2009-09-29, 11:28 PM
Mind you, there's a difference between a Caster Level and a Spellcasting level. Former can be boosted in a lot of ways, spellcasting can't.

True. If it's just a CL...a single feat can repair that. Given the right ability(s), Id consider that tradeoff.

Spellcasting progression though, is untouchable.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-29, 11:47 PM
There are a few abilities that justify spellcaster level. Not many, though.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-29, 11:54 PM
Did anyone mention Malconvoker?

I've seen some Ultimate Magus builds that do good things despite a lost caster level getting into it...for a Theurge class at that. Neatest one was a wizard/beguiler/ultimate magus with practiced spellcasting on the beguiler side to ensure wizard gets advanced most of the time. It looked worth it...
There's a pretty sweet War Weaver Ultimate Magus out there that manages to do very nicely. War Weaver's awesome for actually being decent even if you stick to low-level spell slots.

Akal Saris
2009-09-30, 12:12 AM
Malconvoker is definitely my favorite one that loses a CL, glad to see I'm not alone there.

Master of Shrouds (Libris Mortis) is worth it if you're playing a level 5-15 game and enter it early.

The_Snark
2009-09-30, 12:12 AM
From the same book, I've heard a lot of love for Walker in the Waste. But then, anything that gets you to be something as awesome as a Dry Lich with precisely zero (0) shenanigans is worth looking at.

Everyone I've talked seems to forget that the Dry Lich carries a nasty +5 level adjustment. The prestige class capstone says nothing about removing that LA (unlike the Dread Necromancer), and the template is only applicable to people who have that capstone ability, so you have to conclude they intended the LA to apply to Walkers in the Waste (the sample dry lich character has it).

I mean, I could understand it as a houserule, but you'd think people would mention that the class has to be houseruled to be good if that were the case. So why does everyone assume you ignore the LA?

DragoonWraith
2009-09-30, 12:53 AM
Master of Shrouds (Libris Mortis) is worth it if you're playing a level 5-15 game and enter it early.
Early? A Base Save Bonus of Will +5 seems rather difficult to get early...

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-30, 12:56 AM
Base Will +5 is doable by level 3.

Hunter Noventa
2009-09-30, 01:21 AM
Base Will +5 is doable by level 3.

A base save does not include your bonus from your ability score for the purpose of qualifying for feats or prestige classes.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-30, 01:29 AM
A base save does not include your bonus from your ability score for the purpose of qualifying for feats or prestige classes.

I know.

Wizard 1 / Cleric 2

Wizard 1 grants +2 Base Will save.
Cleric 2 grants +3 Base Will save.

+2 +3 = +5

Really, any two classes with strong Will save progression will work.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 02:05 AM
I know.

Wizard 1 / Cleric 2

Wizard 1 grants +2 Base Will save.
Cleric 2 grants +3 Base Will save.

+2 +3 = +5

Really, any two classes with strong Will save progression will work.

that sacrifices even MORE spell progression.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-30, 02:10 AM
...Oh. Haha, I can't believe I didn't think of multiclassing.

Master Specialist can get you in at 5 (rather than 4) without giving up progression.

Myrmex
2009-09-30, 02:16 AM
...Oh. Haha, I can't believe I didn't think of multiclassing.

Master Specialist can get you in at 5 (rather than 4) without giving up progression.

As can most other early entry caster PrCs, like Rainbow Servant (text trumps table version).

Doc Roc
2009-09-30, 02:53 AM
There's a pretty sweet War Weaver Ultimate Magus out there that manages to do very nicely. War Weaver's awesome for actually being decent even if you stick to low-level spell slots.

That's mine, probably, or Kell's. :) I am the patron saint of War Weavers.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-30, 04:23 AM
Heck, there's probably a racial paragon level or two that'll do it without sacrificing Spellcaster Level, and without feat requirement/skill requirement. Base saves are very easy to buff.

That said, what I consider worth the loss of CL?

Wiz 3/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 10/Wiz 4-7/Ardent 2-3
With Practiced manifester and Practiced spellcaster, you'll get 9th level spells at level 18, and 9th level psionic powers at Level 20. Your caster level will be 20 for wizard, and manifester level 17 for Ardent.

I'd say that's worth delaying your 9th level spells to level 18.

lord_khaine
2009-09-30, 04:29 AM
In that regard, what do people think its worth losing manifester levels for?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-30, 04:34 AM
Manifester levels? Up to 4 is practically free, with Practiced Manifester + Augment covering you.

A level 3 power Augmented with 10 additional points, is on par with a level 8 power. The only thing you lose is a bit of high end versatility. Not even that with the Ardent class.

Talashtora is excellent with a level of monk and Ardent, for example. You can even fit in 3 levels of most any other class too. I personally like ToB classes for that. Instant Gish.

Fishy
2009-09-30, 04:49 AM
Malconvoker is pretty good.

In general, a lost caster level is worth it if you're getting something in exchange that A) breaks the Rules and B) can't be replicated with magic.

'1/day You Fail This Save' doesn't do anything that wouldn't happen if the bad guy had failed the save. In contrast, War Weaver lets you cast four spells as a move action, Dread Witch lets you use fear on things that are supposed o be immune to fear, Fiendbinder gets you a succubus harem and Jade Phoenix Mage lets you explode.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-30, 04:59 AM
Malconvoker is pretty good.

In general, a lost caster level is worth it if you're getting something in exchange that A) breaks the Rules and B) can't be replicated with magic.

'1/day You Fail This Save' doesn't do anything that wouldn't happen if the bad guy had failed the save. In contrast, War Weaver lets you cast four spells as a move action, Dread Witch lets you use fear on things that are supposed o be immune to fear, Fiendbinder gets you a succubus harem and Jade Phoenix Mage lets you explode.

In all fairness, the last two can be replicated with magic. Gate + Mindrape on the first.

And if you can't go ground zero with a caster? Something's wrong.

Leon
2009-09-30, 05:43 AM
Whats worth lost CL?

Anything that you deem to be what you want for your idea to work.


I have a Archivist PC atm that has 2 levels of Barbarian in the middle of 5 Archivist levels, they are the representation of the effect that being a werewolf had on my PC for 2 levels - the curse is gone but the primal nature hasn't.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-30, 05:54 AM
Whats worth lost CL?

Anything that you deem to be what you want for your idea to work.


I have a Archivist PC atm that has 2 levels of Barbarian in the middle of 5 Archivist levels, they are the representation of the effect that being a werewolf had on my PC for 2 levels - the curse is gone but the primal nature hasn't.

I believe the OP is positing the question from the perspective of Mechanical pro's and con's.

While sacrificing power for thematic representation is perfectly fine to do, it doesn't really provide answers in the direction that the OP is seeking.

Gnorman
2009-09-30, 06:25 AM
I believe the Bone Knight and Ordained Champion classes are considered a decent CL sacrifice for Cleric-oriented gishes.

Fiend-Blooded is an okay loss for a Sorcerer.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-30, 06:42 AM
Aren't you able to take a few levels of Fiend-blooded without sacrificing CL?

Gnorman
2009-09-30, 06:49 AM
Aren't you able to take a few levels of Fiend-blooded without sacrificing CL?

Yeah, it's only the last level that doesn't progress it. But that last level also gives some nice stat bonuses (evening out the ones you've gotten over the course of the class, except Charisma, maddeningly.)

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-30, 06:52 AM
As I understand, the real benefit to sorcerors from that class is the extra spells known.

Gnorman
2009-09-30, 06:58 AM
As I understand, the real benefit to sorcerors from that class is the extra spells known.

Indeed, and level 10 gives you one more. Perhaps unnecessary, but in my mind worth the hit when considering the stat bonuses.

Plus, it just oozes flavor. I like that.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-30, 07:25 AM
Indeed, and level 10 gives you one more. Perhaps unnecessary, but in my mind worth the hit when considering the stat bonuses.

Plus, it just oozes flavor. I like that.

There are other PrC's that give spells known, as well, IIRC. The typical dip into Fiend-blooded that's generally done is only a few levels, just enough to get 2 spells known. The stats are actually pretty minor, compared to that. Especially when the capstone level doesn't even advance the sorceror's casting stat to a rounded out number.

Ernir
2009-09-30, 08:10 AM
Ruby Knight Vindicator hasn't been mentioned yet.

Dweomerkeeper is worth it. The entry requirements are broadly worded, though, I would be very surprised if it is impossible to get in as a Cleric without losing CLs.

Kylarra
2009-09-30, 08:46 AM
I believe the OP is positing the question from the perspective of Mechanical pro's and con's.

While sacrificing power for thematic representation is perfectly fine to do, it doesn't really provide answers in the direction that the OP is seeking.Yeah, sorry if that wasn't clear. While I agree that thematic representation is a perfectly valid reason to sacrifice progression, it's not quite what I was looking for here.

Leon
2009-09-30, 09:49 AM
I believe the OP is positing the question from the perspective of Mechanical pro's and con's.

While sacrificing power for thematic representation is perfectly fine to do, it doesn't really provide answers in the direction that the OP is seeking.

My answer still stands.
Loss of caster lvl is worth it both mechanically and thematically if its what you want for your idea to work

If Big flashy PrC has the stuff to make it happen for you but loses some CL you should still take it if its the big flashy stuff your after other wise you may as well stay with your base casting class

Tavar
2009-09-30, 09:58 AM
My answer still stands.
Loss of caster lvl is worth it both mechanically and thematically if its what you want for your idea to work

If Big flashy PrC has the stuff to make it happen for you but loses some CL you should still take it if its the big flashy stuff your after other wise you may as well stay with your base casting class

I don't know, it seems to me that it's the same as someone who, in a thread about making a strong character, says to play Pun-Pun. Yeah, by a liberal reading of the purpose of the thread it's valid, it's still a purposeful misinterpretation.

Cyclocone
2009-09-30, 10:44 AM
Ruby Knight Vindicator hasn't been mentioned yet.

Dweomerkeeper is worth it. The entry requirements are broadly worded, though, I would be very surprised if it is impossible to get in as a Cleric without losing CLs.

The Magic Training feat does it. As a wizard, you could probably get by with Southern Magician and Arcane Disciple, maybe Planar Touchstone as well.

Oh, and Wyrm Wizard is worth it as well, depending on what it helped you learn.
A Wizard/Wyrm Wizard/Halruaan Elder who cast Greater Arcane Fusion spontaneously is just awesome.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-30, 10:54 AM
Did anyone mention Malconvoker?

I've seen some Ultimate Magus builds that do good things despite a lost caster level getting into it...for a Theurge class at that. Neatest one was a wizard/beguiler/ultimate magus with practiced spellcasting on the beguiler side to ensure wizard gets advanced most of the time. It looked worth it...

The Redundancy Department of Redundancy approves of advertising the Redundancy Department of Redundancy. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DepartmentOfRedundancyDepartment)


We're going to turn the Malconvoker into a Meme, aren't we?



Regarding the JPM: The only reason the capstone is considered viable is because it heals you to full HP 1/week. Even then, the ability can be dumped in favor of the Abjurant Champion's 5th level.


Exalted Arcanist is considered good for a Sorcadin Gish build. Also, some consider Master of Many Forms very good despite not progressing the Casting ability (it goes double for Wild Shape Rangers, who lose next to nothing). Mythic Exemplar is also very good for a caster build, despite the level loss (but only with the right choice on ability). Ordained Champion is considered worth the 2 level loss, as it's abilities are very powerful for a Divine Gish (it also doesn't hurt you at all if you are an Ur-Priest).

Again, +1 for RKV/JPM.