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View Full Version : Help Me Kill the DM 3.5 [[build help]]



LaniGiro
2009-09-29, 06:27 PM
Alright, this feels like a great time to make my first post. We've been having this guy dming for us for awhile. We were doing fine and all, playing along merrily. Now he's having us all create new level three characters, blah blah blah.

Point is, we're only using the three core books, not even srd. Just Players Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeonmasters Guide. Something about not having to look things up that way.

Well uh...I've now made it my job to make a character that can be played decently(not necessarily optimized) and will have him looking things up here, there, and everywhere.

Originally, I was thinking a wizard specializing in illusions or conjuration, but I'm open to any suggestions.

Edit: Ah, I guess it would have been nice to mention we're also doing 32 point buy.

evisiron
2009-09-29, 06:31 PM
A fighter focused on grapples, AoO's, disarming, exotic weapons, feinting, overrunning, sundering and tumbling...all while on a mount. :smallbiggrin:

The Dark Fiddler
2009-09-29, 06:31 PM
Suggestions? Wear armor.

Making a build just to give your DM extra work is not nice, and likely to earn several smacks to the head. DMing isn't as easy as people (including a younger me) think.

Yukitsu
2009-09-29, 06:31 PM
Murder is wrong dude. :smallconfused:

If you mean you want to ruin the campaign, also not cool.

If you mean you want to be powerful in core only, druid with natural spell often comes highly recommended. Riding dog animal companion at low levels is pretty good, and you're basically good to go out of the box.

Kylarra
2009-09-29, 06:36 PM
Diplomancer is another possibility, although being a one-trick pony is more likely to just get diplomacy houseruled than anything else.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-29, 06:36 PM
What is the point again?

LaniGiro
2009-09-29, 06:36 PM
Haha, I guess I didn't really mean to kill the dm or ruin the game or anything, just make him realize he's going to be looking up things one way or another. So far in ideas that I like, is the druid idea, and the fighter.

Heaven's no, I just want to loosen him back up again, after he got rules lawyer on us, make sure he uses each and every one of them.

Kroy
2009-09-29, 06:40 PM
Haha, I guess I didn't really mean to kill the dm or ruin the game or anything, just make him realize he's going to be looking up things one way or another. So far in ideas that I like, is the druid idea, and the fighter.

Heaven's no, I just want to loosen him back up again, after he got rules lawyer on us, make sure he uses each and every one of them.

Dude uncool. That's like playing Pun-Pun because the DM said you had to play shapeshift druid instead of the normal kind for balance reasons. Just go along with it. It's challenging being a DM.

Kallisti
2009-09-29, 06:41 PM
Be a Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue. Use at least two exotic weapons, one of which allows trip attempts. Use maeuvers such as disarm, sunder, and feint. Grapple often. Make trip attacks. Use a mount, but not always a lance. Sometimes, though.

Although, even if you think your DM is being unfairly restrictive and you want to prove a point, purposefully making extra work for him is immature and just plain rude. So don't do anything to him if his only crime as a DM is to ban books. That's a DM's prerogative, and you either accept it with good grace or find a new group...

LaniGiro
2009-09-29, 06:42 PM
Hmm, after all of these posts, yeah, I'm starting to see what you mean. Yeah, I guess this can definitely get out of hand. Hmm, I'll continue my evil ways, but I won't be horrible about it. Wizard sounds bad enough. Either that, or a bard that would use grappling often, for some odd reason.

I won't ask you guys to help me be evil. Can I lock the thread myself, or does a mod need to help me?

ericgrau
2009-09-29, 07:02 PM
A fighter focused on grapples, AoO's, disarming, exotic weapons, feinting, overrunning, sundering and tumbling...all while on a mount. :smallbiggrin:

Hey! I like that build! :smallbiggrin: Lol.

Actually focusing on all of them is impractical, but doing them all the time works. Just pick 1 or 2 things to focus on and for the rest just wait for extra vulnerable targets to make up for a lack of a feat.

For exotic weapon try bolas + quick draw for ranged trips. Rules cheat sheets to help you - and the DM - sort through all this is in my sig. I'd suggest a nice mount from the monster manual rather than an ordinary horse, after you level up a bit I mean.

But ya, be nice.

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 07:06 PM
Don't listen to these naysayers; you should summon lots of monsters. Make a cleric who casts tons of summon monster spells and later makes undead. Be sure to only make stuff/summon stuff as it is in the MM, so the DM has to look it up all the time.

Then have the summoned creatures trip, disarm, and sunder!

[edit]
Play a druid so you can also wildshape.

Emy
2009-09-29, 07:08 PM
What is the point again?

Judging by the thread title it's to kill the DM.

Pro tip: don't kill the DM. If he or she is dead, you don't get to play the game.

ericgrau
2009-09-29, 07:09 PM
Don't listen to these naysayers; you should summon lots of monsters. Make a cleric who casts tons of summon monster spells and later makes undead. Be sure to only make stuff/summon stuff as it is in the MM, so the DM has to look it up all the time.

Then have the summoned creatures trip, disarm, and sunder!

[edit]
Play a druid so you can also wildshape.

I'm fine with the fighter and the druid, but dood this crosses the line :smalltongue:.

If you seriously want to do this, then be sure to prepare all the stats on printed sheet ahead of time so you don't delay the game looking them up. Roll fast and/or pre-roll as much as you can for all the monsters.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-29, 07:27 PM
Personally, this all depends on the person. If the DM did it to reduce strain, ask him how you guys can lighten the book keeping for him, have some print outs handy, etc.

On the other hand, if he did it just to be a jerk, school 'im. Hello Mr. Druid, how would you like your world served today...regular or extra bloody massacre as the world itself turns against civilization? Is that a dam I see? Hmm...better fix that...oh darn, it was holding back an entire RIVER, and there's a METROPOLIS below. Silly two-legs, shouldn't have made a nest in the valley I guess! Hey look, that giant unassailable castle is up on a cliff face! It looks dirty...a quick earthquake into the ocean should clean it right up! Argh, these silly humans and sea elves keep poluting my seas...all around this one island...oh wait, we can fix that too, with a couple well placed tsunamis! I wonder if that works with magma...

I usually end up leaving games with DM's who go out of their way to hose their players, but if I get half a chance, I give them a good healthy dose of kick in the teeth with something like Druidzilla as a parting shot, so hopefully they learn from their mistake. If they honestly have a problem, it's an out-of-game problem, and if they're doing it because "I'm the DM and I'm GOD and I'm blah blah blah powertwip! it's either a maturity problem or a personal problem with someone. Would that exacerbate it? Possibly, but it might also snap them awake to the fact that core is more broken than any splatbook (barring perhaps PGtF), and lose the lazy. Once you know the source of the autocracy, execute as above. And if it is the latter, you'll get a nice druid out of it, anyhow ;)

Myrmex
2009-09-29, 07:41 PM
Having a master list of your abilities and the source (book & page number) is extraordinarily useful. Index cards of very often used abilities, spells, or summons also helps.

d20srd is also a great resource for basic rules look ups, as is google, surprisingly.

Delwugor
2009-09-29, 08:44 PM
The last time I GM (3 years ago) I kept the players to the PHB. This campaign I'm starting tomorrow night I'm also allowing PHB2, anything else has to get my approval.
This wasn't/isn't to necessarily restirct them but to keep it much easier on me. I'm no where near a rules lawyer (nor do I want to be), but I am perfectly aware that supplements start adding complexity to the game.
IMO the supplements also increase the chance of having an overpowered character whether through purpose optimization or unanticipated combinations. Luckily my group now is not into overly optimizing so that is not that huge of a concern to me.

Also give the GM a chance for a bit. Once you get into character you might forget about the restrictions and just enjoy playing. Or you could even like how the restrictions end up in play. In my last one I thought the restriction opened the door up to more in character play instead of rule/class play.
If after several session you still have problems then discuss it with him at a friendly non-confrontational level. He might say OK. You may also want to bring it up with the group as a whole to get their view.
If you are still unhappy about the situation and you are not enjoying the game then just say "sorry this isn't working for me" and leave for the campaign or even for good. But if you do leave be mature about it, you never know when you would end up playing with some of them again.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-29, 08:59 PM
~90% of the most overpowered stuff is in core. The rest is overpowered mostly because it has access to core. What little is left is rarely special by itself without core.

And outside of core, brokenly-underpowered archetypes get the options they need to be useful compared to the core OMGWTFPWNage of the rest of core...

Just sayin'.

Delwugor
2009-09-29, 09:21 PM
I have heard that argument many times and have never once seen a core only character overpowering. I have seen characters played in unimaginative ways make other characters look much better.
But that is some of my biased considering in my group we have had mid-level (8-12) fighters and monks (not optimized mind you) be awesome and be contributing members to the group.

Sorry for the almost thread cap, "We will now resume our normal scheduled progam." :smallwink:

sambo.
2009-09-29, 10:04 PM
just make him realize he's going to be looking up things one way or another.

keeping track of all the gunk in all the splatbooks can be time consuming and tedious.

if your DM doesn't want to do that, fair enough. if you don't like it: find another group to play with.

being a DM involves a lot more work than most people realise.

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-29, 10:30 PM
As I understand it, breaking into his house in the middle of the night and beating his sleeping form with a hammer, is the most effective way to kill a DM. But I don't condone it.

Seriously though, if you want a build that stops everyone from playing the game as he (or more likely, YOU) spends 15 minutes looking up a rule, why are you even playing D&D? Go to Law school and get a degree.

gdiddy
2009-09-29, 11:03 PM
As I understand it, breaking into his house in the middle of the night and beating his sleeping form with a hammer, is the most effective way to kill a DM. But I don't condone it.

Seriously though, if you want a build that stops everyone from playing the game as he (or more likely, YOU) spends 15 minutes looking up a rule, why are you even playing D&D? Go to Law school and get a degree.

You made me spit my drink out.

For two reasons:

First, because I am an optimized Eldritch Lesser Star DM, with the Hammer Immunity Feat line. You'd be surprised how common HI is among DMs.

Second: I am in Law School. I want to say it does make me a better player and DM.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-29, 11:18 PM
Dude uncool. That's like playing Pun-Pun because the DM said you had to play shapeshift druid instead of the normal kind for balance reasons. Just go along with it. It's challenging being a DM.

Dunno...fair is fair. If the DM is being rules-lawyerish, insisting on doing the same is reasonable. It's a bit like when DMs ban monks for being overpowered...(yes, Ive seen this). You're practically obligated to show them how another class can be more powerful. The goal isn't to ruin the game(shouldn't be anyhow), merely to use a creative way to show them a bit about the game.

Besides, if they're just using the main three books, there's nothing terribly wrong about making him look stuff up. That's how you learn things...and those three books are excellent ones to know as much as possible from.

I suggest massive multiclassing. If you're doing those three books only, the power level is sufficiently low that even things like eldritch knight are reasonable options. If you get creative though, and dip excessively, it'll be even more fun. =)

Mind you, this isn't an excuse to be lazy...you should know what your abilities do, even if the DM doesn't. If he insists on looking it up, that's on him.

Another_Poet
2009-09-30, 12:27 AM
Cleric1/Druid1/Fighter1

Cleric for turning undead, druid for animal companion & summon spells and fighter for the feats mounted combat + rideby attack. Max your ride & Handle animal checks. For your other feat consider Extra Turning or Improved Overrun or Spirited Charge.

Now use your starting wealth to buy a riding dog, even if you don't ride it. This is in addition to the mount you DO ride. Now note that most of what you do with your mount is a ride check and a free action, handling your animal companion is Handle Animal and a free action, and handling your purchased dog is Handle Animal and a move action.

Be sure to choose different tricks for all your animals. Put barding on them.

Sadly, some elements of the above build are from an actual character of mine who was not meant to be a pain in the GM's @ss, but turned out to be anyway. Believe me, this is a lot of bookkeeping.

Of course, I hope your GM is smart enough to make you do all the looking up of these archaic rules every time you try to take an action :smalltongue:

Myrmex
2009-09-30, 01:46 AM
Dunno...fair is fair. If the DM is being rules-lawyerish, insisting on doing the same is reasonable. It's a bit like when DMs ban monks for being overpowered...(yes, Ive seen this). You're practically obligated to show them how another class can be more powerful. The goal isn't to ruin the game(shouldn't be anyhow), merely to use a creative way to show them a bit about the game.

So let me get this; the DM wishes to maintain power parity between classes, and in order to tell he's "doin' it wrong", you have to ruin everyone's fun?

How do you people find games?

taltamir
2009-09-30, 02:31 AM
Point out to him the amount of work needed to cover just the things in those three books, and suggest that instead of de facto banning everything (which is not effective at reducing work), make a rule that each person MUST make a print out / stat out every ability he or she uses...

That is. You can ONLY summon a monster you have fully stated out. You can ONLY use a spell if you have printed out its description, etc...

Actually this is a really nice idea. I think I will make a real spellbook for myself

Temet Nosce
2009-09-30, 02:56 AM
Actually this is a really nice idea. I think I will make a real spellbook for myself

It sounds nice till you try it in reality. I had a DM who asked me for this before I started the game. I had my character written up for an Epic game, and he wanted every spell I had written out (a completely copy of every spell)... on a Beholder Mage/Ur-Priest. Problem is? That was the equivalent of a several hundred page book. I had to type out by hand. By the time I finished Arcane spells and did Divine spells up to level 8 he told me the game was on hiatus because there weren't enough players around. Well no bloody wonder there aren't when you ask them to spend a month typing out a large (and completely useless) book, after they already wrote up a level 30 character!

Now to put this in perspective, I offered to help him acquire copies of any books he didn't have... turned out he had the books already, he just wanted me to type it out anyways (even though due to the number of spells I knew it wasn't even going to significantly shorten time required to find them). I wanted to play a Demilich so badly I did it to... I think that may be my worst "Game that never started", although thinking back that may have been a good thing. The DM was also running a DMPC who could deal 9,000 damage a round with a +100 something sword and one of the other players was his wife. It was a game pretty much doomed to failure from the start.

Anyways, point being there's no need to type out spells. It's one thing to make sure you have stats handy for any monsters you're using, but entirely another to write up content already in the books. It's already there, just use the book because overall it'll cost you more time to do it the other way anyways.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-30, 03:23 AM
Pro tip: don't kill the DM. If he or she is dead, you don't get to play the game.

Thank you :smallbiggrin:

Myrmex
2009-09-30, 03:27 AM
Judging by the thread title it's to kill the DM.

Pro tip: don't kill the DM. If he or she is dead, you don't get to play the game.

...so that's what I'm doing wrong.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 03:38 AM
yea, that was a bad idea.
I will stick to copy pasting their descriptions into a google document for easy access.