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Quietus
2009-09-30, 05:33 AM
In the process of working on my latest campaign, I've been working on creating a good, solid foil for the party - someone who can really give them a run for their money, and be someone they love to hate. They keys to this character, as I see them, are :

- Thrall to a powerful red dragon. This Master is the one pulling the strings, which are manipulating basically all the events that make the campaign go.
- Powerful enough to defeat a decently powerful silver dragon. What constitutes "decently powerful" is not completely defined, at the moment.
- Claw themed, to act as the opposite to the party's de facto "leader". This leader is themed around the Vassal of Bahamut class (combine knight in shining armor with dragon slayer), and is themed around bites, though loosely.
- I don't mind reflavoring things, working within the mechanics and, say, flavoring those short swords as "long knives", but I'd prefer to be able to sit down with my players and show them exactly how I created this character by the rules.

What I've come up with so far is a duskblade, probably somewhere between level 8 and 13; The higher level the party is when they encounter him, the higher level he'll be. My preference would be for him to dual-wield kukris, or another claw-ish weapon.

I guess what I'm looking for is.. is there any specific tricks I could use here? I know I'll want to pick up some good solid spells to use with arcane channeling, as well as at least one, preferably two equally solid cone effects, since the party size can range from 4 to 6 depending on who shows up.

Things I'd like to get for him :
- "vampiric" style weapons, to keep his HP up
- A solid way of keeping his damage up, so that he's a viable threat. Less important come level 13, of course... six or seven attacks that all carry even a Shocking Grasp is less than pleasant.
- A way of making ranged touch attacks into regular touch attacks. No, I don't intend to full attack with TWF and carry a disintegrate on each attack.. but to have the option of taking similar spells and doing such with them would be nice
- A method of making the damage dealt as difficult to heal as possible. Vile damage is good, I'll need to look that up again, but I'm open to other methods.

Saph
2009-09-30, 05:42 AM
Things I'd like to get for him :
- "vampiric" style weapons, to keep his HP up

Bloodstone enchantment, from the MiC. Makes a weapon act as a Spell Storing weapon, but only for Vampiric Touch. Any Vampiric Touch spell cast from the weapon is auto-empowered. Quite nasty if you're carrying more than one of them.


- A solid way of keeping his damage up, so that he's a viable threat. Less important come level 13, of course... six or seven attacks that all carry even a Shocking Grasp is less than pleasant.

Give him the Combust spell from the SpC. It's level 2 and deals 1d8/level fire damage, no save, and possibly sets them on fire, too. You can even justify it with the Extra Spell feat if you want.


- A way of making ranged touch attacks into regular touch attacks. No, I don't intend to full attack with TWF and carry a disintegrate on each attack.. but to have the option of taking similar spells and doing such with them would be nice.

Mmm . . . drawing a blank on this one. I know there are some shenanigans you can do with Ocular Spell, but I doubt a duskblade could pull that off effectively and I don't think it works on ranged touch attacks.


- A method of making the damage dealt as difficult to heal as possible. Vile damage is good, I'll need to look that up again, but I'm open to other methods.

Vile makes sense. Another option would be to look at the Clay Golem's "Cursed Wound" ability from the Monster Manual, and give him a version of that.

Myrmex
2009-09-30, 05:52 AM
What if he were to use katars or claw-type weapons?

I would have him use spells & equipment that debilitate and weaken the party, if you want him to be someone the party really hates. Poisons could do it, and since you're DM, you can ignore the high price of poisons, and/or just refill his poison after every encounter, since NPC wealth works differently than PC wealth. Consumables don't count against wealth if an NPC is used for multiple encounters the way it counts against PCs.

Maybe give him the half-dragon template? I would consider giving him 3 levels of paladin of tyranny for the debilitating aura, more HP, more BAB, and better saves. In my experience, adding levels in non-casting classes rarely adds that much to the CR of an encounter, and gives important villains a little more durability than getting taken down in a single uber-charge.

UMD + wraithstrike wand in a wand chamber in his weapon = touch attacks.

Also, you could make him dex focused with elusive target, if your party will be using power attack. It is a good way to negate a lot of damage. I imagine him as a wiry, agile combatant with catlike grace and supernatural speed to contrast with the plate-wearing Bahumut worshipper.

Besides using potions, wands, scrolls & UMD for him to get spells, you could instead make him undead and spellstitch him. You could even have him created by the Red Dragon (or made by a necromancer under the control of the Dragon), so have him crafted with the corpsecrafter line of feats, as well as being made on a desecrated altar for more HPs.

If you don't want to make him undead, maybe give him a DM version of spellstitching from the dragon. I believe in both races (or magic?) of the dragon and MM5 (with the great game about dragons), there are options for that. Basically the wyrm gives up spell slots/gives tokens to his thrall, and the thrall gains some casting and the ability to use word of recall to teleport home to the dragon.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-30, 08:04 AM
I remember there being a claw like weapon from FR that didn't restrict casting.. can't remember what or where but might be something to look for.

Fishy
2009-09-30, 08:15 AM
Claw Gloves from Magic Item Compendium: Don't inhibit the use of your hands in any way, shape or form, and you can attack with them as if they were +1 punching daggers. Done. They even come with their own free mini-pounce.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think Enlightened Fist gives the ability to turn rays into touch spells. I also don't know if you can get that ability and still have room from Duskblade 13.

Boci
2009-09-30, 08:17 AM
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think Enlightened Fist gives the ability to turn rays into touch spells. I also don't know if you can get that ability and still have room from Duskblade 13.

They gain it at 7th level, so only just. But without a level as monk you will need to burn 2 feats on improved uanrmed strike and stunning fist to meet the preqs.

Person_Man
2009-09-30, 08:46 AM
I have a homebrew Dragon Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99253) you may want to look at.

Fishy
2009-09-30, 08:59 AM
They gain it at 7th level, so only just. But without a level as monk you will need to burn 2 feats on improved uanrmed strike and stunning fist to meet the preqs.

Yuck. Well, Monk 2/Duskblade 3/Enlightened Fist 7 would be different, at least.

If he's supposed to be powerful enough to take on a party of 4-6, you might be able to justify Gestalt-ing him (And you're the DM, why not), and then you could get both abilities at level 13, why not.

Quietus
2009-09-30, 02:28 PM
Looks like I'll be needing to see if one of my players has a copy of the MiC/SpC that I can get hold of, then... Combust seems like a perfect cone-spell to use, particularly since nothing sows chaos among your targets like setting them on fire. Regarding the bloodstone enchantment, is it only once that it can go off, or multiple times? I seem to remember reading something recently about a +3 bonus equivalent ability that did a vampiric thing.. but that'd be really pricey to get a pair of those, and still get everything else he needs.

As for him being wiry and mobile, yes, I'll have to do that - but that's for his own survivability, not to be an opposite to a plate-wearer. Right now, the main core of the party is a bard, rogue, and the bahamut worshipper (Paladin mostly, right now), with the occasional addition of a dragon shaman, sorcerer, and another Paladin. The bahamut worshipper is currently using either a chain shirt, or a lighter Medium armor, and eventually hopes to gain Platinum Armor (as the Vassal class feature; +8 AC, +4 max dex, little/no ACP, light armor) through roleplay. So he's definitely mobile as well... in fact, the only person in the party with actual heavy armor will probably be the Paladin that's only there 1/3 of the time.

That being said.. a focus on dex/AC will help make him capable of surviving more effectively, and those claw gloves sound very neat, working very well with the fast and furious, savage style I'm looking to go for. No, I won't be giving him any templates.. I dont' mind breaking the rules from time to time, but for this one character, I want to stick to the same rules I'm using for the PCs - very specific choices of races, no homebrew, everything by the book. It'll help feed into their hatred of the character, because while they aren't very good optimizers, they'll be more pissed if they let themselves think "Oh, the DM is just giving him extra powers like he does with us to make this fight hard", and I can tell them that no, this is something built completely rules-legally.. it just required a little book-dipping.

The one thing, though, is that he WILL be higher level than the party. He won't show up until after they've encountered a white dragon they're chasing after right now, and the party should be at least level 6 by the time they've done that.. possibly 7, after they beat it. That means this guy will start around level 8, giving him access to that neat "set you on fire cone", and by the time they're level 10, he'll be 13 and able to full attack channel spells. Of course, the players will have lots of tricks too.. so it'll be a very interesting encounter. Or at least, so I hope. :smallcool:

ex cathedra
2009-09-30, 02:57 PM
If you aren't set on duskblade, a variant of the well-known King of Smack (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866038/The_king_of_smack) would be absolutely perfect.

Dracons
2009-09-30, 03:06 PM
Carry a +1 returning dagger, that has been permentally invisiable. A rogue villain of mine used that. While greater invisiabity. Sneak attack. Ouch. No sight, and the dagger would disappear from their body.

Keld Denar
2009-09-30, 03:08 PM
Gah! Curse you on linking King of Smack, I was just gonna do that.

Yea. Fully augemented Claws of the Beast + Claws of the Vampire + Expansion + Improved Natural Attack (claws) feat = you do very large numbers of base weapon damage and heal nearly to full every hit.

Otherwise, something like a Web Enhancement Dragonwraught Kobald Sorcerer6/Swiftblade10/AbjChamp4 with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and the Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike feats for his claws and Arcane Strike to charge them up with Arcane Energy.

AmberVael
2009-09-30, 03:24 PM
King of Smack looks pretty good, yeah.

However, just to put out another option- the character is a devoted thrall, needs a method of healing by attacking, and has to be good at melee, so... maybe consider Crusader, if only like one level or something? Stances and strikes from that class could give him a method to regain some HP, and reflavoring it could mean he was devoted to the dragon, not necessarily a deity.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-30, 03:25 PM
Yuck. Well, Monk 2/Duskblade 3/Enlightened Fist 7 would be different, at least.

If he's supposed to be powerful enough to take on a party of 4-6, you might be able to justify Gestalt-ing him (And you're the DM, why not), and then you could get both abilities at level 13, why not.

If you're going to be channeling Disintegrates, you may as well burn the feats instead of losing the two levels for a Monk dip. The level loss totals 4 or 5, IIRC, so you won't be getting 5th level spells until late game. Duskblade 13/EF 7, get a Fanged Ring and an Eternal Wand of Mighty Wallop and Enlarge Person.

Myrmex
2009-09-30, 03:32 PM
No, I won't be giving him any templates.. I dont' mind breaking the rules from time to time, but for this one character, I want to stick to the same rules I'm using for the PCs - very specific choices of races, no homebrew, everything by the book. It'll help feed into their hatred of the character, because while they aren't very good optimizers, they'll be more pissed if they let themselves think "Oh, the DM is just giving him extra powers like he does with us to make this fight hard", and I can tell them that no, this is something built completely rules-legally.. it just required a little book-dipping.

Fair enough. I still recommend looking up dragons in MM5 & taking a peak in Dragon Magic. Dragon Magic gives sorcerers more spells known by having them enter packs with dragons that give up uses of spells/day. MM5 has the dragons playing a sort of chess game against each other, except the board is the multiverse, and the pieces creatures. If one of the players (or NPCs) ends up playing the game, the dragons can bequeath gifts upon them, including contingent Words of Recall and the like.

Woodsman
2009-09-30, 03:47 PM
If you have access to Draconomicon, Talon of Tiamat is a good PrC if you're opposing a Vassal of Bahamut.

You have to burn a feat for the Dragonthrall prerequesite, but that fits nicely anyway. There isn't anything dealing with claws, though, but yopu do great breath weapons.

Diamond Dragon from Dragon Magic works too, especially if you use Psy Warrior for the claws and such.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-30, 04:00 PM
If you have access to Draconomicon, Talon of Tiamat is a good PrC if you're opposing a Vassal of Bahamut.

You have to burn a feat for the Dragonthrall prerequesite, but that fits nicely anyway. There isn't anything dealing with claws, though, but yopu do great breath weapons.

Diamond Dragon from Dragon Magic works too, especially if you use Psy Warrior for the claws and such.

Not really. Those PrCs are all very weak (Talon of Tiamat especially). Diamond Dragon has a few perks, but the ML loss is too steep for the benefits.

Talon of Tiamat is like Dragon Shaman, but with Full BAB in exchange for a daily limit on his Breath Weapons. He can only use each breath weapon 1/day.

Woodsman
2009-09-30, 04:06 PM
Talon of Tiamat is like Dragon Shaman, but with Full BAB in exchange for a daily limit on his Breath Weapons. He can only use each breath weapon 1/day.

I never noticed that bit. I should read more carefully.

technophile
2009-09-30, 04:32 PM
If you have or can get hold of Tome of Battle, a couple of Warblade levels (concentrating on the Tiger Claw maneuvers, naturally) could be profitable. Alternately, Swordsage concentrating on Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw might help with survivability and maneuverability.

Person_Man
2009-09-30, 04:57 PM
Not really. Those PrCs are all very weak (Talon of Tiamat especially). Diamond Dragon has a few perks, but the ML loss is too steep for the benefits.

Talon of Tiamat is like Dragon Shaman, but with Full BAB in exchange for a daily limit on his Breath Weapons. He can only use each breath weapon 1/day.

Agreed.

The only useful and usable PrC in the book is Hidecarved Dragon. Full BAB, 3 strong Saves, d10 hit die, 4 Skill points per level from a solid list, and a bunch of semi-potent defensive class abilities. The only problem is qualifying: dragon, lawful, +20 natural armor, +12 Will Save, and Iron Will. Plus the best class ability is that you add your class level to pre-existing natural Spell Resistance, so you need to find a way to get natural Spell Resistance.

I think we did a challenge once a while back, and figured out that we needed some combination of:

Crucian (Sandstorm, +8 NA, +2 LA)
Half-Dragon (+4 NA, Dragon Type, +3 LA)
Dragonwraught Kobold feat (Dragon Type, only for Kobolds)
Dragon Disciple (Dragon type, +4 NA, 10 levels)
Woodling (+7 NA, +3 LA)
Vile feats (+1 NA for every 2)
Mineral Warrior (+1 LA, +3 NA)
Voidmind (+4 NA, Spell Resistance 10 + HD, +1 LA)
Polymorph Any Object (lots of weird options)
Insane DM

Book Wyrm
2009-09-30, 06:38 PM
Just because no one has posted it yet, you could try the Dragon Fire Adept class from Dragon Magic, which is similar to the Warlock but breathes fire instead of shooting eldritch blasts.

Actually, concerning the warlock, there was a feat from Dragon Magazine called Eldritch Claws that replaced your eldritch blast with two claw attacks that dealt your base eldritch blast damage plus unarmed strike damage. You could re-flavor this feat to work with the Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon, then combine with a level or two of Swordsage and two levels of Bloodclaw Master (Unarmed Swordsage or Improved Unarmed Strike plus the Superior Unarmed Strike feat). This would give you a pretty nasty draconic flavored, claw based, multi-attack fighter. Throw in the Hellfire Warlock PrC re-flavored as Dragon-Fire Warlock and the Strongheart Vest Soulmeld via the Open Least Chakra feat from Incarnum and you just boosted his damage outputs to dangerous levels. I'd look up information on the "glaive-lock" thread for some more advice.

herrhauptmann
2009-10-01, 12:15 AM
I'd be a little worried throwing a dragon against a vassal of bahamat if you intend for him to be a frequently encountered villain.
That permanent hitpoint damage can get pretty rough (unless you just handwave that away). I'm not sure if halfdragons, dragonborns and others count as 'dragon' for the purpose of dragonwrack.

However, you could just take the Vassal of Bahamat and reflavor it into a Tiamat version instead of using Talon of Tiamat.

Myrmex
2009-10-05, 11:34 AM
Not really. Those PrCs are all very weak (Talon of Tiamat especially). Diamond Dragon has a few perks, but the ML loss is too steep for the benefits.

Talon of Tiamat is like Dragon Shaman, but with Full BAB in exchange for a daily limit on his Breath Weapons. He can only use each breath weapon 1/day.

Remember that daily uses are of far less importance to an NPC who will only get a few rounds to be annoying before he teleports away.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-05, 11:49 AM
Remember that daily uses are of far less importance to an NPC who will only get a few rounds to be annoying before he teleports away.

To an NPC villain. A party NPC, a cohort, or a PC will be a different story. Also, if they pursue him (such as Delay Teleport or similar effects), or if they encounter him twice in one day (feasible, not likely though), or if the combat takes more rounds than he has Breath Weapons (most likely scenario) it will be wasted levels.

A Dragonborn Swordsage with Hatchling's Flame and an actual breath weapon would be the better choice. Or Totemist. Or, well, anything that isn't Talon of Tiamat that gets a decent Breath Weapon.

Myrmex
2009-10-06, 12:24 PM
To an NPC villain. A party NPC, a cohort, or a PC will be a different story. Also, if they pursue him (such as Delay Teleport or similar effects), or if they encounter him twice in one day (feasible, not likely though), or if the combat takes more rounds than he has Breath Weapons (most likely scenario) it will be wasted levels.

A Dragonborn Swordsage with Hatchling's Flame and an actual breath weapon would be the better choice. Or Totemist. Or, well, anything that isn't Talon of Tiamat that gets a decent Breath Weapon.

Just sayin; what's good for an NPC isn't always good for a PC. Different metrics.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-06, 12:49 PM
Just sayin; what's good for an NPC isn't always good for a PC. Different metrics.

Still, WotC could have at least labeled it an NPC PrC so we wouldn't get confused.