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View Full Version : Suggestion for new spellcaster class system.



Belial_the_Leveler
2009-09-30, 12:15 PM
4th edition has very good balance (so far) and not auto-gimping multiclassing rules but so very few options that it can't reflect the flavor of most fantasy setting magic and designing characters is much less fun.
3.5 is great for options but has horrible balance and even worse multiclassing rules regarding casters.
Taking a look at what WotC says was a testing ground for some 4E mechanics, Star Wars SAGA, we see that it is the middle ground-and designing characters in it both has more options than 4E and more balance than 3.5. What really drew my attention though where two things: Power acquisition did NOT depend on classes at all and class abilities were multiple choice from a pretty long list per class instead on being set in stone.

So here's an idea; a spellcasting system that has no problem multiclassing, is balanced, has as many options as possible and is interesting and in which you can't auto-gimp yourself with bad choices should combine the successful ideas from those editions. With that in mind, here's what I came up with for a unified spellcasting system;



Unified magic
Your caster level for spellcasting classes is your level total in all those classes. No buffing caster level.
You have base spell slots as a wizard of your total casting level and you must memorise spells.
You have base spells known as a sorceror of your total level taken from a base spell/power list common to all classes.
Spell DCs and bonus slots depend on your highest mental ability score.

Talents
Each level in a spellcasting class gives you a talent of that class. Talents are essentially the class abilities of said class. There are no PrCs, only talent paths within classes. Aditionally, some feats have been changed into talents;
Wizard: Has the wizardry talent tree. Each step in the tree gives access to a new level of the full list of arcane spells (in addition to common magic everyone gets). In addition, you can now write down and memorize spells of that level from a spellbook, exceeding your spells known, but spells from your spellbook rely on intelligence for casting and DCs. Has the Specialization tree, giving bonuses to a single school of magic of the wizard's choice.
Sorcerer: Has the sorcery talent tree. Each step in the tree gives access to a new level of the full list of arcane spells (in addition to common magic everyone gets). In addition, you get bonus spell slots and can spontaneously cast your spells instead of memorizing them (spells known don't increase) but spontaneous spells rely on charisma for casting and DCs. Has the Spellshaping talent tree (new) that enables the shaping, countering and control of magical energy.
Cleric: Has the divine magic talent tree. Each step in the tree gives access to a new level of the full list of divine spells (in addition to common magic everyone gets). Those spells don't take up spells known but they still have to be memorized and are based off wisdom for casting and DCs. Has the divine power talent tree that includes turning and effects based on turning (that are normally feats under 3.5). Instead of separate uses of turn undead, clerics use up spell slots to power said talents-though they need not memorize them in advance.
Druid: Has the nature magic talent tree. Each step in the tree gives access to a new level of the full list of nature spells (in addition to common magic everyone gets). Those spells don't take up spells known but they still have to be memorized and are based off wisdom for casting and DCs. Has the shapeshifting talent tree. Each step in the tree enables shapeshifting in better and stronger forms, like wildshape and similar abilities of shifting classes. Additional uses of wildshape or other shifting abilities are not given; the druid uses up spell slots to fuel the shifts just like a wizard would cast polymorph (though the wizard polymorph will be weaker than the druid's)
Warlock: Has the invocations talent tree. Each step gives access to new and better invocations. Invocations and invocation combinations take up spell slots as normal spells. However, after a combination is memorised, the warlock can use it at will. Warlocks also have the Binder talent tree. Each step in the path gives new and better pacts. Pacts give usually continious or at-will bonuses but they still have to be memorised in slots like everything else. Each pact can usually give more than one bonus-but each bonus takes its own slot.
General Talents: What are now prestige class abilities can go here. The archmage talent tree, the Elemental Savant talent tree, the Metamagic Talent tree (the less broken incantatrix abilities), whatever class ability offers a general improvement goes here. Abilities that offer specialised bonuses that most benefit one class (i.e. Red Wizard, Geometer) should go to that class instead of being separate talent trees.



Examples of complete character progressions:

Specialist Wizard:
Wizard 20. Spell DCs and bonus slots based on intelligence.
Wizardry 9: can scribe/memorize all arcane spells.
Specialist 8: +2 DCs, +4 penetration to specialty school. +3 spells/level in specialty school. Spontaneously cast specialist school. Metamagic cost -1 for specialist school.
Archmage 3: Mastery of Energy, Mastery of Shaping, Arcane Reach

Ultimate Magus:
Wizard 9/Sorceror 11. Spell DCs on charisma, bonus slots on intelligence. Must have both intelligence and charisma of 11+spell level to cast.
Wizardry 9: can scribe/memorize all arcane spells.
Sorcery 9: can spontaneously cast arcane spells, +2 slots/spell level for spells known only.
Archmage 2: Mastery of Energy, Mastery of Shaping

Mystic Theurge:
Cleric 11/Sorceror 9. Spell DCs on wisdom, bonus slots on charisma. Must have both wisdom and charisma of 11+spell level to cast.
Divine Magic 9: knows and can memorize all divine spells.
Sorcery 9: can spontaneously cast arcane spells, +2 slots/spell level for spells known only.
Divine Power 2: Standard turn undead, 1 domain and domain slot per level.

Arcane Druid:
Druid 9/Sorceror 11. Spell DCs and bonus slots on charisma. Must have charisma of 11+spell level to cast spells and wisdom of 11+shapeshifting level to use shapeshifting talents
Shapeshifting 9: can memorize all shapeshifting powers up to level 9. Gets full bonuses for each power (see individual power descriptions).
Sorcery 9: can spontaneously cast arcane spells, +2 slots/spell level for spells known only.
Archmage 2: Mastery of Energy, Mastery of Shaping.



Essentially, a system that everyone uses the same slots for everything. Also, every caster gets the universal magic spells/powers regardless of class and one where multiclassing between casters is ridiculously easy.

It could be extended to include martial powers and talents just fine. Only instead of "spell slots" that represent magical power we only have the slots as a mechanic that represent potential and how many powers/talents one is ready to use at once. Two things are needed to further balance this for everyone though:

1) Change the level and/or mechanics of some few broken spells.
2) Give meleers comparable talents and abilities. ToB was a good idea but the execution was poor. 4E has many good ideas for one-time fighter powers that aren't magical or even supernatural; they represent supreme effort and physical reserves instead. Their execution under that system is also poor (10 powers total for an epic character and you forget powers as you grow in level? seriously?) but it can be fixed.

Glimbur
2009-09-30, 02:00 PM
I have two concerns.

1) Sorcerers cast spontaneously from the entire Sorc/Wiz list? I don't know why anyone would play a wizard in that case.

2) Warlocks are going to be difficult to balance because they get at-will abilities unlike anyone else does. Further, they get to mix these with standard Vancian casting which will produce further headaches. This is probably doable, but I for one would be too lazy to make all this balance.

Oslecamo
2009-09-30, 02:26 PM
Heeerr, why have classes at all then? Wouldn't it be infinetely easier to just everybody be able to pick talents and be done with it?

Also what would be exactly be the diference between spells and martial powers and whatnot? Are you willing to go the 4e route of "everybody works the same way" in order to simplify balance?

Really, first we need to fix magic, then we could start thinking about fixing multiclassing, wich isn't really that much of a trouble except for the hardcore optimizers who'll not rest untill a druid5/cleric5/wizard5/sorceror5 is a viable 20 level build.

When you have millions of possible class combinations, all working with their own rules, well, it's hard to balance them all.

However, if you really want to do this, you should start small:rogue, cleric, wizard and fighter. Then work up from there, as all other classes are based from these 4 one way or another.