Food & Candy in a Pseudo-Medieval-Inspired World

[The Neoclassic]

OK, so essentially this started because I got sad because I couldn't think up a way to justify modern foods (in particular, ice cream) in my setting.

How would magic affect food options? I'm not talking how much wheat one can farm (let's not get into Tippyverse food traps), but rather how will changes in transportation and storage of food allow access to other foods? For example, some odd foods (vanilla, cocoa, and coffee) can be purchased on celestial planes and are brought back to the Material Plane as delicacies. So, no, your peasant will have never seen a cup of coffee, but at the queen's sixtieth birthday banquet, she may very well serve tiramisu.

How do other people run this / think about this? Anyone have any sample menus, mundane or expensive, from their setting's taverns or eateries? What foods don't exist in your world, and which weren't around in medieval Europe but can be found in your setting?

[Silverscale]

You mention coffee, cacao, and Vanilla. If you take a look at Arm's and Equipment guide you will find a whole list of various food stuffs from meats to spices to beverages and appropriate prices for each in a medieval setting.

As for ice cream... how about

Create Frozen Confection:
Conjuration (?)
Level: Scor/Wis 1
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: Standard Action
Duration: Instantaneous
Target: Ingredients

With a wave of your hands and a few simple words, the ingredients before you swirl together and after a few moments, you are holding an ice-cream cone with your favorite flavor ice-cream on top.

This spell can be used to create any sort of frozen desert you desire as long as you have most of the ingredients available.
(read there are actually quite a few ingredients in ice-cream and it would be silly to make sure your player has every last one of them)

Material Component: The ingredients for the desired confection.

[The Neoclassic]

You mention coffee, cacao, and Vanilla. If you take a look at Arm's and Equipment guide you will find a whole list of various food stuffs from meats to spices to beverages and appropriate prices for each in a medieval setting.

I own the Arms and Equipment guide. I don't know how accurate it is (since I don't know how they calculated the prices, and I know most published WotC products involving 3.x & D&D pretty much suck). So... yeah, I use those as a starting point for some products (mostly the meats and booze), but not all. I mean, the prices would depend on magic level, where other continents were & their climates, all that stuff. Thanks though.

[Silverscale]

See my above edited post for a nifty spell.

[Amadi]

Cocoa, caffee and vanilla were all used in medieval times by some cultures, and shipped from there to nearby areas. Coffee in particular was surprisingly popular. No need to ship these from celestial planes, as they most probably grow on material. They will be relatively expensive, but most fine restaurants and cafeterias, as well as rich families, will have access to them.

Also, read this (http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/thermo/ice_cream/ice_cream.html). You do not need electricity to make ice cream, and infact ice cream was made before people even were aware of electricity. All you need is ice or snow, or in fantasy setting, few castings of ray of frost. :smallwink:

[The Neoclassic]

Cocoa, caffee and vanilla were all used in medieval times by some cultures, and shipped from there to nearby areas. Coffee in particular was surprisingly popular. No need to ship these from celestial planes, as they most probably grow on material.

Travel of some planes is actually generally regarded as easier, safer, and more cost-effective in my setting than trying to reach the remote portions of the world (most of which are inhabited by very powerful monsters rather than friendly or easily conquerable cultures). Of course those products were used by some real world cultures long ago, but they didn't reach Europe until the 1500s (vanilla and cacoa, for example, were introduced in the 1520s by Cortes). It'd just vary setting by setting, I'd imagine.


Also, read this (http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/thermo/ice_cream/ice_cream.html). You do not need electricity to make ice cream, and infact ice cream was made before people even were aware of electricity. All you need is ice or snow, or in fantasy setting, few castings of ray of frost. :smallwink:

I'll take a look at that. I know of course anything involving cold/refridgeration would be plausible in D&D- you just need the right spells. Ice cream as we think of it today didn't really show up until 1700s, but some of the precursors are pretty cool (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cream#History). If I ponder enough, I might be able to come up with a reasonable explanation for it being a rare regional delicacy somewhere...

[Randel]

I like the 4th edition wizards because they get unlimited use of at-will attacks and cantrips so a magica cook has a few options.

ray of frost or an area of effect cold spell can freeze water into ice, if you have an insulated area you might be able to store some up for later.

Prestidigitation lets you add flavors to stuff to save on exotic seasonings or to make snow cones that taste like whatever you want.

mage hand lets you pick stuff up and manipulate them, great for setting tables or handling hot food straight out of the oven (or still in the oven) heck you could stir soup telekineticaly (sort of like how Katara stirs soup in Avatar)

Thunderwave, magic missile, and ghost sound are handy for hunting wildlife. Magic Missile lets you shoot birds or animals without using arrows. Ghost sound can trick animals with phony mating calls or sounding like prey, and thunderwave makes your fishing trips a snap! (just poke the end of your staff into the water, let out a massive shockwave through the water, and let the stunned fish float to the surface)


Oh, and if you are an adventuring party you could find all sorts of ways to cook the monsters you slay on your quest... get a magically sharp dagger and you can cut out all the finest slabs of meat from your vanquished enemies and cook them up later. But if you start making recipies on how to cook kobolds and goblins and orcs and stuff then don't be surprised if find yourselves getting turned evil.

Peasant: Oh noble adventurers... the drought has ruined most of our crops and what meager food we have left has been stolen from us by a bandits and goblins. If you could stop them and reclaim our winter stores we would be ever so greatful and I would give you my cherished ancestral sword.

Paladin: Fear not, good sirs. By Palor, we shall do everything in our power to protect you from fear and famine!

*later that day, the party returns with all the bags of grain that the goblins and their pets didn't eat, and lots and lots of fresh meat.*

Peasant: Oh bless you! We're saved!

Paladin: You are very welcome, good man. Those bandits and goblins won't be bothering you or your families any longer! In fact, we've confiscated their weapons and would like for you to have them... to protect yourselves with or to sell as you desire. And whats more, we've gotten plenty of fresh game on our journey there so let us have a celebratory feast!

Peasant: Horay, you are truly a saint among men!

*later after the feast*

Peasant: Ohh, such divine cooking... I haven't eaten this good for as long as I remember. I ask you, noble paladin of Pelor, what sort of game was that? It's like none I've ever eaten.

Paladin: Why, its an old recipe common among adventuring men such as myself... roast bandit and goblin meat stew!

Peasant: *face freezes as he's about to say something. He looks back at all the empty plates and the big bones from the meat. He turns back to the Paladin in shock.* Ummm...

Suddenly a big scary glowing head of Pelor appears right over the feast.

Pelor: PALADIN!! DID YOU EAT THE FLESH OF YOUR ENEMIES AGAIN?! YOU ARE AN ABOMINATION AND HAVE TEMPTED THESE PEOPLE DOWN THE PATH OF CANNIBALISM, EVIL, AND MADNESS!! I DISOWN THEE!! *the face scowls and big electric-like arcs hit the paladin, stripping him of his powers and turning his armor jet black*

Paladin: *doesn't flinch for a second and looks down at his blackened armor.* Well, looks like I'm taking the blackguard route now. Say, why don't you keep your ancestral sword? If you want, I can give you a few pointers on how to use it. That way you won't have to worry about bandits or going hungry again.

[Silverscale]

Actually that reminds me...in the campaign my friends and I are playing, we had a few occasions where we slew a dragon and brought the carcass back to our keep (tucked away in our Saddle Bags of Holding of course). Upon return, we would inform the Innkeeper of our Inn (She is a Master Chief) that we need her to prepare a big feat for all the villagers......the one of us would dump out the carcass in the middle of the courtyard......Can you say Dragon Steaks for everyone?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Off the top of my head, a pseudo-medieval pseudo-European setting would have easily have caramel coated nuts, dried fruit slices, honey cakes, sweet biscuits - without resorting to magic.

If you're not doing a pseudo-European setting, then you can add in any and all of the sweet things you can think of.
Example: The ancient Egyptians ate a sort of sorbet / sherbet made from frost collected in specially cooled chambers and flavoured. This in a region famous for being hot, too (the desert nights are cold enough for frost if you set things up right).

Maybe sweet things and ices should be more rare than in our modern day - even with magic being relatively readily available, you'll still have a far smaller scale of production compared to the massive factories full of unskilled workers and automation that we have on 21st century Earth.

[kwanzaabot]

You people are giving this way too much thought.

It's ice cream. It doesn't have to make sense.

[The Neoclassic]

You people are giving this way too much thought.

It's ice cream. It doesn't have to make sense.

... :smallsigh: Some people like verisimilitude, parallels to historical time periods, or just plain omitting things that feel too modern. If I just felt like popping any random modern food or invention into my setting, I wouldn't have started this thread. I'd be running a game where players could eat ice cream, have pet monkeys, and prance around with dragon wings without any negative NPC reaction or surprise. That's not the kind of game I want to run. :smalltongue: If you want to run a game like that, peaches for you, but don't suggest that OUR way of doing things is somehow wrong.

[Flickerdart]

You can make caramelized sugar with great ease and the stuff is delicious. That could very well be the delicacy of choice for peasant children.

[Cieyrin]

Salting and pickling are still probably very common despite the availability of magic, as this isn't Eberron and we don't have magewrights lighting the streets.

For richer people, Purify Food and Drink, Create Water and Prestidigitation will handle most culinary needs, with the occasional Ray of Frost to create ice cubes.

For specific foods, I think a lot of fruits would need to be imported that wouldn't survive in your average psuedo-European Mediterranean environment, like bananas, pomegranates, star fruit, peaches, etc. Many spices, as well as sugar cane, would also need to be imported, things like cinnamon, vanilla and various chile peppers.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Ouranos]

Check out Races of the Dragon, page 124. Item is called Angriz's Chest. It's basicly a magic fridge. Sure it only preserves meat as it's described, but come on, change the spell casting needed from Gentle Repose, or even just ADD, Ray of Frost and you have a portable refridgerator that's enchanted, costs enough to put it in the hands of just the wealthy or prosperous (or those who own taverns/inns and make a fair amount of money). Is a wondrous item, costs a grand as it stands (though of course, your setting, feel free to change it due to abundance/scarcity of magic and the extra spell needed) and fulfills the purpose.

[lightningcat]

For moving perishable foods teleport object is decent. A 7th level spell cast by a 13th level caster costs 910 gp, but has a range of 1300 miles (which is about the straight line distance between London, England and Casablanca, Morocco), and can carry 650 pounds. So as long as whatever you're shipping has a value of better the 1.5 gp/lb. you're making a profit. Coffee runs 50 gp/lb, pineapples cost 150 gp/lb, and nutmeg is 480 gp/lb. And out of season fresh fruit could easily cost upwards of 5 times the price of dried fruit. And just think how much you could charge for fresh ice.
While I think there is a spell that allows you to control the temperature, even without magic hot houses have existed for a long time.
But as in real history, most exotic items will remain outside the price range of commoners. Although, I can easily see specialty restaurants for exotic foods/drinks, that cater to the rich and powerful (read Rise of a Merchant Prince for a great example of this).

[kwanzaabot]

... I'd be running a game where players could eat ice cream, have pet monkeys, and prance around with dragon wings without any negative NPC reaction or surprise.

That's not the kind of game I want to run. :smalltongue: If you want to run a game like that, peaches for you, but don't suggest that OUR way of doing things is somehow wrong.

Clearly we got off on the wrong foot here. I'm not saying it's wrong to have verisimilitude (WRONG! Just say "realism" :smallamused:), but there's certain things that people just aren't going to care about. "How ice cream is made" is, in my opinion, one of them.

I don't mean any offense, I just feel that there's more important things in your setting you could be devoting your time to.

[The Neoclassic]

Clearly we got off on the wrong foot here.

Fair enough. I misinterpreted your tone.


I'm not saying it's wrong to have verisimilitude (WRONG! Just say "realism" :smallamused:)

Actually, most people say it's "verisimilitude" not "realism" since we aren't dealing with this "real world," but I'll leave that semantics debate to others. :smalltongue:



but there's certain things that people just aren't going to care about. "How ice cream is made" is, in my opinion, one of them.

I don't mean any offense, I just feel that there's more important things in your setting you could be devoting your time to.

I could be, but there's also more important things in my life I could be devoting my time to than D&D. :smallwink: More seriously, I run heavily setting-focused sorts of games (not very popular, I realize, but it's my niche), so any sort of little detail like that I enjoy working out. So... maybe I could be spending my time on other stuff, but this is what piques my interest at the moment! :smallbiggrin:

[Nostri]

Something to think about if you're worried about where they're getting the sugar for various confections and such and don't want to think about the logisitcs of how they got ahold of sugar cane. (Which was very hard to grow in most of Europe without modern techniques and technology.) They probably used sugar beets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_beet) and honey in areas farther from the tropics.The flavor of the sugar is...kinda off if you're used to cane sugar but still very sweet.

Something else as far as frozen desserts are concerned, or even refrigeration in general, are ice houses. You dig a hole in the ground (big or small depending on how much ice you want though bigger works better) and build a shed in and over it. Then you line the thing with straw and put a layer of ice cut from the local lakes and streams in, pack more straw on top, then more ice, the more straw, etc until you've filled the thing. This'll keep the ice frozen throughout most of the summer months in most temperate areas and let you make ice cream and provide refrigeration in you've got a decently insulated ice to keep stuff in. I know that communities in America were doing that long before electricity. Not sure about this processes history though or how far back it goes though it's entirely feasible in a pseudo-Medieval quasi-European world. Heck the tech for it existed in the Stone Age though I doubt they did it then.

There's my 2cp.

[JonestheSpy]

They probably used sugar beets and honey

Two words: GIANT BEES

[CrazySopher]

Two words: GIANT BEES

That's actually my first thought when it comes to differences in cooking, what have you. There is a fantastic variety of meats to choose from, given the number of creatures in the world here! What does dire animal flank taste like? What kind of creatures are going to be created by wizards purely for food consumption? Are really, really poisonous creatures or perhaps monsters that are known for giving off terrible damage-over-time effects known as delicacies (ex: epic level eateries have special, non-metal shell crackers for Rust Monsters :smalltongue:)? How difficult is eating Displacer Beast meat if it's not actually there half the time? Is eating the bottom half of a Centaur considered cannibalism? Is roast Owlbear flank considered light or dark meat?

What kind of sourcebook would they have for this? Would it have Killer Tomatoes statted out? :smallbiggrin:

[Desmond Tiny]

I think cannibalism is eating any sentient creature in D&D. Also Just use create water, ray of frost, and pestidigitation to make ice cream.

[Cieyrin]

That's actually my first thought when it comes to differences in cooking, what have you. There is a fantastic variety of meats to choose from, given the number of creatures in the world here! What does dire animal flank taste like? What kind of creatures are going to be created by wizards purely for food consumption? Are really, really poisonous creatures or perhaps monsters that are known for giving off terrible damage-over-time effects known as delicacies (ex: epic level eateries have special, non-metal shell crackers for Rust Monsters :smalltongue:)? How difficult is eating Displacer Beast meat if it's not actually there half the time? Is eating the bottom half of a Centaur considered cannibalism? Is roast Owlbear flank considered light or dark meat?

What kind of sourcebook would they have for this? Would it have Killer Tomatoes statted out? :smallbiggrin:

Reminds me of an evil butcher I had who made such delicacies such as Halfing on a stick and Dwarf-ka-bobs.

I don't really see Rust Monsters as being that edible, as all they eat are metals, which probably doesn't add good flavor to 'em. Probably pretty gamey, too. Not like Giant Crab (Chuuls could be interesting, though...:smalltongue:)

Owlbear is probably pretty greasy, as it's mostly bear with a little owl thrown in. Not exactly poulty at all, so probably all dark meat.

I'd also be wary of some of the other creature types, as eating aberrations would probably poison you or worse.

[ericgrau]

Ancient Greeks invented snow cones and ice cream still predates the middle ages. It's all about the proper transportation and/or storage of ice in well insulated containers.

Frankly the sophistication of European life in the dark ages sucked, but in the meantime everyone else thought of everything imaginable. Mostly in ancient times but also in Arab and other regions foreign to Europe.