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Choco
2009-09-30, 01:26 PM
I'm considering making a Walker in the Waste character, but before I do I got 2 issues I gotta work out:

1. The rules for regular liches specify that they can can create new phylacteries when their old/current ones are destroyed, but does that work the same for dry liches? They got the 5 jars containing their organs basically serving as 5 phylacteries, and I know the jars themselves can be replaced, but I can't imagine they can just "craft" themselves some new organs to place into said jars. Would a wish/miracle be the only way to get their phylacteries back?

2. Is there any way to get around that pesky water weakness? I thought about a Ring of Elemental Immunity, but then I realized that the ice immunity one specifically protects against ice, not water.

hamishspence
2009-09-30, 01:45 PM
The rules don't actually specify in 3.5 MM whether they can or can't replace destroyed phylacteries.

In Libris Mortis, it states explicitly that they cannot- page 151:

"A lich whose phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a new one."

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-30, 01:54 PM
Dust of Dryness takes care of the weakness to water. There's also an item in the MiC that keeps you dry for a few minutes/hours or so. I believe it was a rod.

FlyingWhale
2009-09-30, 01:55 PM
I am assuming you are a player in this... Possibly going through some sort of ritual where you find a willing person to sacrifice their organ(whichever was broken) and make a new one with it? I don't know offhand what you could sway your DM with for a mechanical effect... Maybe an ability penalty because it's not YOUR organ anymore?

Maybe you should dunk yourself in oils to waterproof yourself :smallbiggrin: Grease spells, Races of the Wild-Honey Leather-pg129... I dunno. But yeah I could see a few things there... Good luck, keep us updated!

Choco
2009-09-30, 02:08 PM
Ah, my bad about the phylactery, I think that was a house rule since no one has Libris Mortis. But even considering that, a wish/miracle should still be able to bring the original one back, but it appears that is the only option.

I will have to check out that dust of dryness, and also try to get that swarm template (I don't know how/if the DM will go about having me acquire a 0LA template). Since as an undead I wouldnt have to breathe/eat anyway, maybe I can laminate myself.... Im sure there are plenty of other mundane ways to keep that nasty water offa me, just a matter of creativity now I guess!

Ah well, now I got a new question though: What would be the best ways to shield my jars from divinations?

Sliver
2009-09-30, 02:13 PM
Mind blank them! Can you animate your organ so it counts as a creature, and then mind blank it?

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-30, 02:16 PM
Ah well, now I got a new question though: What would be the best ways to shield my jars from divinations?

If you have Complete Mage and Dungeonscape available, get someone to craft a self-resetting trap of Otiluke's Suppressing Field pre-set to Divination. Permanent anti-Scry.

Khatoblepas
2009-09-30, 03:35 PM
On each jar:
Dispel Magic
Polymorph Any Object * 2 into a nubile young princess, then again into a nubile young princess. (Can be any race, or even a Warforged. Since you're polymorphing, you might as well choose an immortal race like Killoren.)
Mindrape: Good Alignment, memories of being brought up by your alter ego, a kindly king figure.
Cast: Contingency - if girl should ever go below 0 hit points, cast Heal on them. If you can spare another, have Word of Recall/Greater Teleport also cast.
Give: Item of Mind Blank, Glamered Bootknives of Spellblade [Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic]. Conspicuous Magical Amulets of Light [CL = Your Phylacteries]
Take: Good care of them. Teach them magic. Make "clones" and keep their bodies safe. You never know when you need body doubles. (like when adventurers know too much and try to kill your "daughters")

As far as I know, the dispel magic will wear off after you cast PaO twice, leaving the resulting girl functionally a magic item AND a creature. After all, one doesn't permanently destroy the magic of a magic item with a 3rd and 8th level spell - that requires a 9th level spell, or a large adamantine hammer.

Now you have five wonderful daughters, to teach magic and generally turn into wonderful people that noone will want to kill. Sure, they have no souls, but they have memories, and a good alignment. If they want to kill you, they have to kill, for example... the betrothed to Prince Al-Hazbar, the adventurer's soon to be king. He won't like that at all. And why would you want to kill the Princess' father? What has he ever done to you? Evil adventurers would be rooted out and slain as if they were assassins, if you play your cards right.

In all, a moral quandry for PCs, a reason for DMs not to go after your phylacteries. Nobody has to know the Five Princesses of the Desert Kingdom are actually just clay jars...

edit: Oh, and about the water weakness. Glamered Hydration Suit (should cost around 1000gp for the suit and +2000 for glamered.)

hamishspence
2009-09-30, 03:49 PM
Polymorph any object is normally temporary if the object is not very close in nature to what it will be turned into.

Basically, you'd need to start with Magic Jars that are made from human bodies, first.

Otherwise, after a short period they will revert back into the original Magic Jar forms.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-30, 04:01 PM
Polymorph any object is normally temporary if the object is not very close in nature to what it will be turned into.

Basically, you'd need to start with Magic Jars that are made from human bodies, first.

Otherwise, after a short period they will revert back into the original Magic Jar forms.

Did you not read his post? He's double-casting it, making the second casting permanent. Duration won't change when the other casting wears off.

mostlyharmful
2009-09-30, 04:09 PM
Polymorph any object is normally temporary if the object is not very close in nature to what it will be turned into.

Basically, you'd need to start with Magic Jars that are made from human bodies, first.

Otherwise, after a short period they will revert back into the original Magic Jar forms.

but it also temporarily changes your type. Which means a second casting of it's a lot lot closer, permenant alteration is just two castings away for anything into anything. Then you have them have lots of kids... who the hell knows if they'd work for you as phylacteries but it would mess up any adventurers coming after you no end.

hamishspence
2009-09-30, 04:19 PM
I was figuring that the rule is absolute- double casting does not work-

(they would not have such a time limitation factor if it could be beaten just by casting the spell twice)

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-30, 04:21 PM
I was figuring that the rule is absolute- double casting does not work-

(they would not have such a time limitation factor if it could be beaten just by casting the spell twice)

Where is this rule coming from? RAW, it works. There's no such thing as State-Based Effects in DnD.

hamishspence
2009-09-30, 04:24 PM
Yes, but RAW also allows a dying person to be brought back up to 0 HP by sticking their head in a bucket of water.

Its just one of a long line of things where sometimes to avoid cheese, you have to consider Rules As Intended.

And given that the whole polymorph line has a reputation for being cheesy as heck, it hardly needs to be made more so by allowing double cast to enable you to turn anything into anything, permanently.

mostlyharmful
2009-09-30, 04:28 PM
Yes, but RAW also allows a dying person to be brought back up to 0 HP by sticking their head in a bucket of water.

Its just one of a long line of things where sometimes to avoid cheese, you have to consider Rules As Intended.

And given that the whole polymorph line has a reputation for being cheesy as heck, it hardly needs to be made more so by allowing double cast to enable you to turn anything into anything, permanently.

this one though is clearly a leeeeettttlllleeee tongue in cheek.
and rule -1 is this is all about having fun:smallamused: trumps even RAI

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-30, 04:31 PM
Yes, but RAW also allows a dying person to be brought back up to 0 HP by sticking their head in a bucket of water.

Its just one of a long line of things where sometimes to avoid cheese, you have to consider Rules As Intended.

And given that the whole polymorph line has a reputation for being cheesy as heck, it hardly needs to be made more so by allowing double cast to enable you to turn anything into anything, permanently.

The thing is, this would technically fall under the Stacking rules, but the stacking rules don't apply to spell durations or Polymorph effects that well. It isn't a case of "The rules don't say I can't", it's an actual interaction between the abilities in which the rule the effects would normally fall under doesn't have a say in the matter. It then becomes Rule Zero territory, in which case the DM is house ruling the effects.

BTW, RAW the bucket thing is completely irrelevant. RAW, a Dead creature can take actions, as the Dying status is the only thing that prevents them from taking actions at all. The Dying status applies only from -1 to -9, at which point Dead takes over and the negative effects on your actions disappear.

How's that for bad editing?

The_Snark
2009-09-30, 04:32 PM
While I would normally avoid anything involving Polymorph Any Object cheese (plus Mindrape, no less), the idea of an ancient undead king turning the clay jars that sustain his life into five beautiful princesses is cool enough that I'd permit it this once. It'd actually make for a better campaign villain than a PC...

Optimystik
2009-09-30, 05:00 PM
this one though is clearly a leeeeettttlllleeee tongue in cheek.
and rule -1 is this is all about having fun:smallamused: trumps even RAI

At the point where your PCs can turn anything into anything else without limitation, you might as well start handing out candles of invocation and rubberstamping their epic spells. I'm with hamish on this one.

mostlyharmful
2009-09-30, 05:01 PM
At the point where your PCs can turn anything into anything else without limitation, you might as well start handing out candles of invocation and rubberstamping their epic spells. I'm with hamish on this one.

The difference being that this one's funny and imaginative, candles and Mythals are just dumb.

Choco
2009-09-30, 06:02 PM
Wow, now THAT is an awesome plan! I'm gonna have to find a high level wizard and give that a shot, but with only 4 of the jars. I would still make 5 princesses, but only 4 outta the jars. The last jar I would cast that Otiluke's Suppressing Field self-resetting thing on and hide on some demi-plane or something, buried under 3 miles of rock. Course the only problem is that being a divine caster, I can't polymorph any object or mindrape. That leaves me to use scrolls or other magic items, since paying a high level wizard to do it is out of the question (no way in hell am I gonna have a wizard capable of casting 9th level spells running around knowing about mah darn jars daughters!). That may leave a trail that could be divined, but I got time to think of a plan... Also with the jars as princesses, I may even get some help getting them miracle'd back to life should they die. I'm sure the DM would even allow the polymorph cheese in this once occasion cause it's such a kickass idea.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 06:12 PM
question, is there any way that ANYONE, even a GOD could enter a demiplane uninvited? because if so, putting your jars in demiplanes seems the best solution...

As for the double casting... I would say it cannot work or you give PCs a license to break everything... but... you could use epic casting... but that is also completely broken.

As a DM, you could make something custom to do that instead, it is safer...

But you realize that this is so unoriginal even HARRY POTTER did it? (harry potter is voldermorts 7th phylancy)

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-30, 06:17 PM
But you realize that this is so unoriginal even HARRY POTTER did it? (harry potter is voldermorts 7th phylancy)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoulJar doesn't list too many examples of people-as-phylacteries. Its existence in a popular-yet-bad novel in no way implies unoriginality.

Choco
2009-09-30, 06:22 PM
Yeah I know about that, and there is even some Lich cheese where you get a group of like 4+ liches and they make eachother their phylacteries.

Thing is, with a Dry Lich, people would normally be looking for organ jars. A regular lich can use bout everything as a phylactery, but a Dry Lich just has jars containing his organs.

Oh snap, that leads to another question for y'all, any way I can trick Divination spells into either a) thinking the 5th princess is actually also a phylactery or b) thinking some 5 jars with random peoples organs in them are my phylacteries?

taltamir
2009-09-30, 06:28 PM
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoulJar doesn't list too many examples of people-as-phylacteries. Its existence in a popular-yet-bad novel in no way implies unoriginality.

true, but harry potter is known for not being original... like halo.
It takes a bunch of things that have been done before and mashes them together...

While highly unoriginal, I wouldn't call it a BAD novel... its not a masterpiece but its not bad either.

PS. what about using a stepwise process though? say... animate + awaken.. etc.


Yeah I know about that, and there is even some Lich cheese where you get a group of like 4+ liches and they make eachother their phylacteries.

Thing is, with a Dry Lich, people would normally be looking for organ jars. A regular lich can use bout everything as a phylactery, but a Dry Lich just has jars containing his organs.

Oh snap, that leads to another question for y'all, any way I can trick Divination spells into either a) thinking the 5th princess is actually also a phylactery or b) thinking some 5 jars with random peoples organs in them are my phylacteries?

now that is a way cool idea... actually, i am thinking.. some of the rules about putting a dimentional object in another (bags of holding and the like), or destroying them, say that they contents are "lost forever"... not DESTROYED... this could be an interesting way to hide your phylactery..

As for misguiding scrying... I can only think of epic spells doing it, but there is probably some regular spell method i am not thinking about.

Choco
2009-09-30, 06:44 PM
now that is a way cool idea... actually, i am thinking.. some of the rules about putting a dimentional object in another (bags of holding and the like), or destroying them, say that they contents are "lost forever"... not DESTROYED... this could be an interesting way to hide your phylactery..

Oddly enough I thought about that too, but then either someone could divine/capture it, or even I wouldnt be able to find it again, and im sure my DM would pull the "<x> thing from the Far Realm drifted past where your phylactery was "lost" and destroyed it" card or something.

Also, when a lich "reforms" itself, does it do so from out of the (or one of the...) phylactery? It would be inconvenient for me to reform myself and be lost forever too :smallwink:

Rainbownaga
2009-09-30, 07:28 PM
Also, when a lich "reforms" itself, does it do so from out of the (or one of the...) phylactery? It would be inconvenient for me to reform myself and be lost forever too :smallwink:

Oooh, that could be nasty if you went with the daughter ides :smalleek:

taltamir
2009-09-30, 07:30 PM
Oooh, that could be nasty if you went with the daughter ides :smalleek:

well... you don't form AROUND the phylactery. and you don't form IN it, you form NEAR it...
Although a virgin princess set to marry his highness suddenly giving birth to a lich would be... bad. yea.

Drakyn
2009-09-30, 07:40 PM
well... you don't form AROUND the phylactery. and you don't form IN it, you form NEAR it...
Although a virgin princess set to marry his highness suddenly giving birth to a lich would be... bad. yea.

Babies are wrinkly anyways as newborns. Who'll notice the difference?

Choco
2009-09-30, 07:53 PM
Babies are wrinkly anyways as newborns. Who'll notice the difference?

Heh, babies also have eyes and are more than just skin-wrapped bones, but being D&D I'm sure most ppl wouldnt be surprised...

I guess if I could choose which one to reform near, I would pick the one on the demiplane (which would be all kinds of warded against divinations) or if that werent an option then just near one of the daughters would be fine, I could play it off as being a senile old lich who just messed up a teleport and promptly leave...

I wonder, the rules dont specify, but do you just kinda pop back into existence, or do you form piece by piece like in OOTS?

Rainbownaga
2009-09-30, 08:15 PM
An alternative campaign idea would be to just PAo into minature necklace versions, and then plant false leads that it was the daughters themselves rather than their jewelry that was causing it. It would get around the PAO exploitation and be really :smallyuk: when they find out they killed the women for no reason.

It shouldn't be too hard for a lich to do the doppelganger trick on a man that already has beautiful daughters.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 09:31 PM
Heh, babies also have eyes and are more than just skin-wrapped bones, but being D&D I'm sure most ppl wouldnt be surprised...

I guess if I could choose which one to reform near, I would pick the one on the demiplane (which would be all kinds of warded against divinations) or if that werent an option then just near one of the daughters would be fine, I could play it off as being a senile old lich who just messed up a teleport and promptly leave...

I wonder, the rules dont specify, but do you just kinda pop back into existence, or do you form piece by piece like in OOTS?

mindrape the king, her husband into remembering what a nice guy you are and how you transformed into a baelnorn to protect goodness and fluffiness and bunnies.
Have him and your "daughter" beleive that she carries your phylactery in a necklace at all times to explain why you reform near her... tell him of the evil bad guys who destroyed your body as you tried to stop them from releasing the great evil TM.

Rockphed
2009-09-30, 09:40 PM
Did you not read his post? He's double-casting it, making the second casting permanent. Duration won't change when the other casting wears off.

That strikes me as a very munchkin thing to do.

Nate the Snake
2009-09-30, 09:42 PM
New question: Does a Walker in the Waste gain the dry lich's level adjustment? On the one hand, gaining a template as a class feature usually waives the level adjustment (Dragon Devotee does with the draconic template, anyway). On the other hand, the only way to become a dry lich is with the Walker class feature, so if the LA isn't applied, there's no point to listing it.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 09:45 PM
New question: Does a Walker in the Waste gain the dry lich's level adjustment? On the one hand, gaining a template as a class feature usually waives the level adjustment (Dragon Devotee does with the draconic template, anyway). On the other hand, the only way to become a dry lich is with the Walker class feature, so if the LA isn't applied, there's no point to listing it.

AFAIK you do gain the level adjustment; unless explicitly stated not to do so... after all, becoming a lich via the ritual also gives you the LA...

DragoonWraith
2009-09-30, 09:45 PM
If you're using Polymorph... any Polymorph, except maybe Baleful... then I feel like the term munchkin just doesn't apply. The spell is broken, if it's allowed then it doesn't really matter, it's still broken. If you don't like it, ban it. Complaining about the minor loophole here seems to me like it's missing the point.

BenTheJester
2009-09-30, 09:56 PM
I remember once playing a lich and, if I remember correctly, through Polymorph Any Object, I made my phylactery grain of sand size and hid it somewhere in an active desert(with a lot of sandstorm).

Even if adventurers could locate it through divination, good luck finding it.


That was before Sandstorm came out. With a Dry Lich, this is even more fitting. For added pleasure, throw your grain-of-sand-phylactery in a mass of Black Sand.



But yeah, the demiplane option is the safest.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 09:58 PM
I remember once playing a lich and, if I remember correctly, through Polymorph Any Object, I made my phylactery grain of sand size and hid it somewhere in an active desert(with a lot of sandstorm).

Even if adventurers could locate it through divination, good luck finding it.


That was before Sandstorm came out. With a Dry Lich, this is even more fitting. For added pleasure, throw your grain-of-sand-phylactery in a mass of Black Sand.



But yeah, the demiplane option is the safest.

solution... nuke the area...

arguskos
2009-09-30, 10:00 PM
solution... nuke the area...
Won't actually destroy it, just fuse it to something else. It IS the size of a grain of sand. Also, if you're clever, you can just enchant a permanent and mobile sand storm that sweeps it around. :smallwink:

DementedFellow
2009-09-30, 10:01 PM
AFAIK you do gain the level adjustment; unless explicitly stated not to do so... after all, becoming a lich via the ritual also gives you the LA...

I disagree. Just because a PrC changes your type / gives you a template, it doesn't give you a level adjustment based off that type. Look at the Dragon Disciple. You don't gain LA from it when you finish.

On top of that, if you look at it as if you gain the level adjustment after taking the PrC, you are missing out on a total of 7 spell casting levels - 2 from the PrC and 5 from the Level Adjustment.

Otherwise, it may be more attractive to take the dry lich template as soon as you're able to.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 10:04 PM
On top of that, if you look at it as if you gain the level adjustment after taking the PrC, you are missing out on a total of 7 spell casting levels - 2 from the PrC and 5 from the Level Adjustment.
Which is why it and the regular lich template are simply not worth it..

the DD is a huge trap ...
anyways, how would ANYONE be a lich or a dry lich WITHOUT transforming into one? if transforming into a template does not give LA than:
1. almost all the LA worthy templates become extremely attractive and unbalance parties. Remember that LA is only there to balance PC parties... so gaining templates without gaining LA is the antithesis of party balance.

2. Nobody ever in existence will have LA for those templates (which specifically state that there is LA)... because everyone HAS to transform to become one...
You can be born a half dragon, you cannot be born a lich.


Won't actually destroy it, just fuse it to something else. It IS the size of a grain of sand. Also, if you're clever, you can just enchant a permanent and mobile sand storm that sweeps it around. :smallwink:

A real nuke? it most certainly will destroy it... but i meant a magic one that is targeted at it... so, say, disjunction. (since he stated, even if they can scry it, they cannot find it among the other sand).

Oh and the old level 0 spell detect magic.

DementedFellow
2009-09-30, 10:17 PM
Check this out.

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm):

Dragon Apotheosis

At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon.

Also from SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm):


"Half-dragon" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Look a PrC gave a template that is inherited. This is very uncommon. It's much more common to gain an acquired template, which is what the Dry Lich template is.

As to your question of how a character can become a Dry Lich without being a Walker in the Waste is between the player and the DM. DM fiat can move mountains. I figure the level adjustment is more for the DM so he can create a Dry Lich bad guy.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 10:28 PM
i really don't see any point to what you are saying...
Dragon disciple is an exception to the rule. I SAID it was an exception to begin with... And frankly, it sucks even with that exception.

But as I said, any transformation template gains you an LA, unless it specifically doesn't.

DementedFellow
2009-09-30, 10:31 PM
I misread you.

I would like to see where this rule exists. Where is that rule stated? Why would a capstone of a PrC hinder you with a +5 LA?

Akal Saris
2009-09-30, 10:48 PM
First off, the canopic jars are made of magically hardened clay, and are also magical items of power as they are phylacteries - and Polymorph any Object cannot affect magical items. So no grain-of-sand, magical princesses (as nifty as that idea is!), or the like allowed unless you can somehow convince the DM that a magic soul box is not actually magical.

Second, I believe that rules-as-written, Walker in the Waste saddles you with +5 LA for Dry Lich, so when the whole party is level 16 and you take your 10th level, you are ECL 21. But I believe that it wasn't intended to do so, and should be house-ruled to no LA by the DM.

Khatoblepas
2009-10-01, 03:09 AM
First off, the canopic jars are made of magically hardened clay, and are also magical items of power as they are phylacteries - and Polymorph any Object cannot affect magical items. So no grain-of-sand, magical princesses (as nifty as that idea is!), or the like allowed unless you can somehow convince the DM that a magic soul box is not actually magical.

That's what Dispel Magic is for, silly. :P Magical items become nonmagical for 1d4 rounds. Magical Princess Phylacteries for all!

taltamir
2009-10-01, 03:11 AM
First off, the canopic jars are made of magically hardened clay, and are also magical items of power as they are phylacteries - and Polymorph any Object cannot affect magical items. So no grain-of-sand, magical princesses (as nifty as that idea is!), or the like allowed unless you can somehow convince the DM that a magic soul box is not actually magical.

Second, I believe that rules-as-written, Walker in the Waste saddles you with +5 LA for Dry Lich, so when the whole party is level 16 and you take your 10th level, you are ECL 21. But I believe that it wasn't intended to do so, and should be house-ruled to no LA by the DM.

so that means you are an ECL caster houseruled to be ECL16, giving you a huge(er) power advantage over the rest of the party...
Remember that LA only exists to balance players against each other... if you get to be a lich, then everyone else wants to be something "cool" too.

lord_khaine
2009-10-01, 03:48 AM
so that means you are an ECL caster houseruled to be ECL16, giving you a huge(er) power advantage over the rest of the party...
Remember that LA only exists to balance players against each other... if you get to be a lich, then everyone else wants to be something "cool" too.

Not to mention Dry lich is one of the toughest templates there is to get, it gains a insane boost in durability, with both d12 hp and Char as con, besides a very high dr and tons of resistance.

JellyPooga
2009-10-01, 04:03 AM
All this talk abour Dry Liches has got me wondering what races might make good and/or cool Walkers in the Waste...

Now the only requirement to being a Dry Lich is that you need be 'living'. This rules out the Undead (obviously) and Constructs. Being primarily divine spellcasters, races with high HD or LA are not going to be popular choices, so what ideas do you have?

The thought occurs that a Nymph might make a very good W.i.t.W. With the Druid spellcasting from her Racial HD, she can go straight into the PrC without taking any standard classes (and I'd argue that she could advance her Druid spellcasting with the PrC...not sure on how legal that is RAW though). The Charisma based abilities she has are an obvious boon and are augmented by the Dry Lich immunities and abilities. That +8 (+10 including the template) Charisma equals an extra 4 (5) HP per HD! Thematically it kinda works too...she's a Nymph of a desert oasis and takes up the mantle of a W.i.t.W because she wishes to defend the desert (rather than spread it).

DementedFellow
2009-10-01, 05:59 AM
The only real benefit you gain at 10th level is that you become undead along with the immunities that come with it. All the other neato abilities that come with the Dry Lich template are slowly given out over a 10 level progression. Why would you take that last level when you could become a ghost and get similar benefits with lower LA? The answer has to be that the PrC doesn't give you the LA.

And it's not like becoming undead doesn't have an XP penalty. You have to craft the canopic jars. The price listed in Sandstorm lists the information for 1 jar, not all five.

I find it crazy that people believe this PrC carries a LA when others do not. All it says is "See page yadda yadda for more information on the Dry Lich template." Sure it isn't well written, but come on people. Common sense goes a long way.

I ask again, why would a capstone for a PrC give a LA of +5? Especially since you already have the abilities that would account for the bulk of the LA in the first place.

Volkov
2009-10-01, 06:07 AM
question, is there any way that ANYONE, even a GOD could enter a demiplane uninvited? because if so, putting your jars in demiplanes seems the best solution...
)

Powerful Far realm entities could, they ignore standard planar rules.

Strangely, lammasus or unicorns would make good dry liches. Yeah, a unicorn dry lich, wrap your head around that.

JellyPooga
2009-10-01, 06:17 AM
The only real benefit you gain at 10th level is that you become undead along with the immunities that come with it. All the other neato abilities that come with the Dry Lich template are slowly given out over a 10 level progression.

I'll have to correct you there. The abilities gained by W.i.t.W are pale in comparison to what you get as a Dry Lich.

Dessicating Touch: 5d6 damage on a touch attack? Not what I'd call game breaking.

The Wasting: 1/day disease effect. Given that it has an incubation period of a day, this is not the most useful ability.

Create Sand Golem/Salt Mummy: The latter doesn't even say how exactly one goes about creating a Salt Mummy, though having a Sand Golem could be useful.

Withered Toughness: You have Improved Heat Endurance...immunity to things you are highly resistant to anyway is no big thing. Besides, once you become a Dry Lich this ability is rendered obsolete because you become immune to anything dependant on Fortitude.

Local/Greater Drought: This is about the best thing about W.i.t.W ASFAIC...that little extra edge by inflicting heat penalties on your enemies is handy.

On the other hand, Dry Lich grants you:

Undead Immunities: Nothing to be sneezed at. Worth +1 LA all by themselves.

Aura of Despair: Unlike the Lich Aura of Fear, not dependant on HD.

Con Drain: Instead of 5d6 damage with a touch, you're hitting for 1d6 Con damage. Get a few hits like that in and your opponent is a withered husk on the floor HP be damned.

Turn Resistance: +6 TR is impressive for an Undead

Fast Healing: Thanks to the one useful W.i.t.W ability, this is active all the time. +2 HP every round helps to keep you away from the dreaded 0HP destruction point.

DR 10/Magic and Bludgeoning: Your enemies better prey they brought along magic maces instead of swords and spears.

Unholy Toughness: Buff your Charisma through the roof and that's where your HP will be going too. Enter W.i.t.W through Favoured Soul or Spirit Shaman and Charisma is going to be one of your primary ability scores anyway.

If I had a choice between having the abilities granted by W.i.t.W (excluding the spellcasting) and Dry Lich, then I'd go for Dry Lich any day...

JellyPooga
2009-10-01, 06:28 AM
Strangely, unicorns would make good dry liches. Yeah, a Unicorn dry lich, wrap your head around that.

Certainly an impressive Charisma score! Only downside it that you're entering Epic Territory before hitting Dry Lich. Following the Fey Dry Lich theme, a Pixie Dry Lich would be fairly impressive. +6 Cha and Greater Invisibility at will, not to mention the fact that your DR improves to DR:10/Magic and Cold Iron and Bludgeoning...considering the extra cost of enchanting Cold Iron, I can't imagine many people will be toting magic metal bludgeons made of it.

Choco
2009-10-01, 08:58 AM
Hmmm, it would be odd if the Walker class did give you the LA, simply because you would be going from ECL 14 to ECL 20 in one jump just for leveling up.

But then again, the Walker IS considered one of the most powerful/cheesiest PrC's out there, so most DM's would probably ban it anyway.

The Glyphstone
2009-10-01, 09:07 AM
It's been pointed out that the Dry Lich is a large power boost compared to the WitW, but is it worth the entire package (summarized three posts above)? There's three options here:

1) You can choose to take the Dry Lich template straight-up (would require RP-considerations of beating up a Walker to know how to make jars). Is +5 LA a fair price for the Dry Lich abilities?
2) You get the Dry Lich for free once you reach level 10 of WitW. Is the benefits of the template equivalent to taking 10 levels of Incantatrix, or 10 levels of IotSFV/Archmage?
3) You have to pay the LA on top of investing 10 class levels in WitW. Would you play a 10HD, +5LA race that granted you the benefits summarized above?

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-01, 09:16 AM
Hmmm, it would be odd if the Walker class did give you the LA, simply because you would be going from ECL 14 to ECL 20 in one jump just for leveling up.

But then again, the Walker IS considered one of the most powerful/cheesiest PrC's out there, so most DM's would probably ban it anyway.

To quote Diamond: Eh?!


Walker in the Waste is good, but not on the same level as actual broken PrCs, like Planar Shepherd, Shadowcraft Mage, or Incanatrix. Or even Ur-Priest! The only major thing it has going for it is that it's a less painful way to gain the Lich template, which normally costs you 4 entire levels. This just makes it cost a few levels of spell progression, but allows you to keep the saves, BAB, and HD instead of taking 4 levels away from your character entirely.

Choco
2009-10-01, 09:49 AM
Well, nothing is more broken than a lvl 20 wizard, especially one with PrC's that make it even MORE broken. I have been highly considering doing a very low magic campaign just so I dont have to deal with that crap :smallamused:

But yeah, going into Walker after a few levels of Cleric really doesnt cost you anything. The biggest hit you take is having to wait until lvl 19 to get 9th level spells, but you do still get them eventually and being a lich with 5 phylacteries makes up for that IMO. Other than that, you lose your advancement in the 'turn undead' ability, but that doesnt matter cause as a cleric you are doing DMM cheese with your turns anyway. BAB is made up for by DMM persisted Divine Power. Poor fort save may hinder you early on but once you become undead it doesnt matter at all anymore, and if you REALLY plan ahead then CON will be your dump stat anyway. So with only one real disadvantage, you get all the Walker features (which arent that bad) and then become a dry lich in the end. I think that's rather powerful for being a non-wizard PrC.

BenTheJester
2009-10-01, 09:59 AM
Hmmm, it would be odd if the Walker class did give you the LA, simply because you would be going from ECL 14 to ECL 20 in one jump just for leveling up.

But the thing is, the abilities you gain from the class aren't that impressive. If you ask me, the 10 levels you have to take in that class count as a disguised LA, as the abilities are not so great.
So even if you technically go from ECL 14 to 20 in one level, you probably effectively go somewhere from ECL 10.5 to 15 in one level.



But then again, the Walker IS considered one of the most powerful/cheesiest PrC's out there, so most DM's would probably ban it anyway.

No it's not.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-01, 09:59 AM
I think that's rather powerful for being a non-wizard PrC.

That spell progression hit? Puts them on par with a Sorcerer who gets free PsiReforms every day. Worse even, seeing as they get their 9th level spells a full level after the Spontaneous casters do.

Apply that same logic to a Favored Soul. The PrC still has some nice tricks, but it takes another level to get 9th level spells (and seriously, those are more important than Lichdom seeing as a full caster is all ready more or less immortal combat-wise). Lichdom's immortality benefits don't exactly matter when you are able to use Astral Projection and such. Sure, it's a less broken way of getting immortality for combat purposes, but it's also a fair bit less practical due to the lowered Fort saves (loss of Con).

I'd put it on par with something like the Contemplative: Good for what it does, but not powerful enough to upset the game. This is why I contradicted you in the previous post. It doesn't seriously derail the game at 14th level, nor does it derail it at 20th level. It's not a game breaker as you previously stated.

Jack Zander
2009-10-01, 12:50 PM
BTW, RAW the bucket thing is completely irrelevant. RAW, a Dead creature can take actions, as the Dying status is the only thing that prevents them from taking actions at all. The Dying status applies only from -1 to -9, at which point Dead takes over and the negative effects on your actions disappear.

How's that for bad editing?

No! Wrong! Quit spreading these lies around the Internet!
You have the unconscious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#unconscious) condition when your non-lethal damage exceeds your lethal damage. At -1 HP, your non-lethal damage will always exceed your lethal damage becuase non-lethal damage cannot go below 0.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-01, 01:33 PM
That is...bizarre. By that logic, Diehard doesn't give benefit, because whereas you were before [dying and unconscious] you are now instead [disabled and unconscious]; and therefore cannot take any actions.


That strikes me as a very munchkin thing to do.

Yes, it probably is.

Akal Saris
2009-10-01, 01:45 PM
A lot of the dry lich's strengths are in survivability, which a 15th level cleric should already be very strong in.

If you assume 3/4 HPs, a d12 gives 9 HP, which is the same as a straight cleric with a 16 Con - not at all unreasonable. If you assume that a 15th level cleric probably has a 22 con from items/con boosts, then a dry lich would probably only out-pace a cleric's DC after a 16 Cha, and even then only by a few HPs (probably a 22 cha for most cleric bases, or a 28 cha for niche cases like dryads and petals).

Meanwhile, a dry lich has phylacteries, whereas a cleric probably has contingency plans revolving around word of recall or her allies raising her. I'd say the dry lich has the better deal, but not by a whole lot.

The main draw (in my opinion) is the immunities from being undead, and the sheer coolness of it. I don't think it's worth +5 LA on top of the 10 levels it
took in a so-so PrC to get to the template.

The_Glyphstone:
1. I wouldn't pay 5 LA on a caster for this unless it was epic-level.
2. It's nowhere equal to incantatrix, but it comes close to IoTSFV/Archmage - still a bit weaker from losing 2 CL. So it's powerful, but not as powerful as those 2 extreme examples.
3. No.

Jack Zander
2009-10-01, 01:47 PM
That is...bizarre. By that logic, Diehard doesn't give benefit, because whereas you were before [dying and unconscious] you are now instead [disabled and unconscious]; and therefore cannot take any actions.

Actually the oddities don't stop there. The specific rule of Diehard states that you can still perform actions, which trumps the general rules. However, your Dex is still 0. So you have no Dexterity and are removed of conscious thought, yet you can still shamble around. That's right, diehard makes you a zombie.

Volkov
2009-10-01, 03:25 PM
Well, nothing is more broken than a lvl 20 wizard, especially one with PrC's that make it even MORE broken. I have been highly considering doing a very low magic campaign just so I dont have to deal with that crap :smallamused:

But yeah, going into Walker after a few levels of Cleric really doesnt cost you anything. The biggest hit you take is having to wait until lvl 19 to get 9th level spells, but you do still get them eventually and being a lich with 5 phylacteries makes up for that IMO. Other than that, you lose your advancement in the 'turn undead' ability, but that doesnt matter cause as a cleric you are doing DMM cheese with your turns anyway. BAB is made up for by DMM persisted Divine Power. Poor fort save may hinder you early on but once you become undead it doesnt matter at all anymore, and if you REALLY plan ahead then CON will be your dump stat anyway. So with only one real disadvantage, you get all the Walker features (which arent that bad) and then become a dry lich in the end. I think that's rather powerful for being a non-wizard PrC.
I know something more broken than a level 20 wizard, a level 21 wizard! :smallbiggrin: