Defending of the Gates

[Allan Surgite]

I have been wondering about this for some time; as I am not too well-versed in D&D (the limit of my experience comes from browsing the D&D Wiki, which isn't exactly a Master's Degree in D&D), I am curious as to what manner of illusions the Illusionist of the Order of the Scribble would be able to conjure up to defend his gate.

I would imagine something to make the gate invisible would be a high priority, since this gate seems roughly man-sized, judging from the crayon drawings (although, I do not think the gates would be exactly "open", if what they did to Xykon - an Epic-Level Lich - was any indication).

So, does anyone have any suggestions as to what the fourth gate is defended by?

[Ancalagon]

Check out some possible illusions and enchantment spells on www.d20srd.org, that'll give you an idea what one could do.

It's going to be much more than just some invisible gate.

You'll probably have pits that are covered by illusions of solid floor, doorways that are not to be seen, a maze full of mean illusions that make it worse, people you have long lost, old enemies and friends lost long ago, probably areas where you REALLY want to go (wrong tunnel) or areas where you REALLY do not want to go (the correct tunnel). You might have fake monsters mixed with real ones, you might have... lots of possibilities...

[Shale]

There are a few strategies I can think of.

1) The gate is in the middle of the desert, invisible or disguised as a mundane object, and so out of the way that you'd have to know where it is to find it. A rock in a quarry, buried in a sand dune, et cetera.

2) The gate is hidden in a maze of illusions, like Ancalagon said.

3) There's a maze of illusions, all right, but the gate isn't there - it's the shopkeeper's cabinet in the illusory town two miles to the east, where Girard still lives. Is there a more epic-level illusion than the simulation of an entire functioning society?

[Ronnoc]

The gate will actually be hidden amongst an illusory warehouse filled with an infinite number of gate sized boxes marked "Top Secret! Do Not Open!"

[Linkavitch]

There are a few strategies I can think of.

1) The gate is in the middle of the desert, invisible or disguised as a mundane object, and so out of the way that you'd have to know where it is to find it. A rock in a quarry, buried in a sand dune, et cetera.

2) The gate is hidden in a maze of illusions, like Ancalagon said.

3) There's a maze of illusions, all right, but the gate isn't there - it's the shopkeeper's cabinet in the illusory town two miles to the east, where Girard still lives. Is there a more epic-level illusion than the simulation of an entire functioning society?

That would suck. Epically. now i really hope that happens.

[zillion ninjas]

The gate will actually be hidden amongst an illusory warehouse filled with an infinite number of gate sized boxes marked "Top Secret! Do Not Open!"

...and it's being worked on by top men.

:smallconfused: Who?


Top. Men. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082971/quotes#qt0450553)

[MReav]

Well, seeing as Illusions include Phantasms, Shadow Conjurations, and Shadow Evocations, Girard can mess someone up pretty badly with things that don't exist. I'm thinking low epic spells that although illusionary, hit as hard as anything real.

[theinsulabot]

i actually have a theory on that one, so far, the gates have had built in self destructs, dorukan simply built in a self-destruct rune that blew the whole thing up, soon's had the paladin guard ready to smash it, and lian's was susceptible to fire in a forest. if i was girard, i would build it into my gate that if at any point someone completely fathomed all the illusions at my dungeon, it would trip the self destruct, and moreover, some of the illusions around the gate would actually be needed to fathom it.

[Hardcore]

That would leave the Gate in the norths that is guarded by monsters. I vote for that option as monster killing is so RPG:)

[Liwen]

Illusions are almost limitless. Girard could have built a maze of infinite illusionnary planes of existence with a death effect illusion awaiting in every corner. He could have created gate duplicates over hundreds of square miles of desert dunes, making sure the real one can't even be seen because it actually under the illusion of a dune covered with fake gates. He could have made the illusion of an erupting volcano that's so powerful you'd take damage from the lava and died. He could have made the illusion of a room covered with symbols of insanity that works exactly like real ones. He could have created the illusion of a frigging OCEAN filled with Celestial flying sentient acid breathing mechanical sharks with chain gun laser eyes in a bad mood and a little drunk.

Anything you can imagine, Girard might have done, well up to the 'reasonable' limits of an epic level illusionist.

[Pronounceable]

"Reasonable limits of epic magic" is an oxymoron. Girard's defense is probably the thing I most look forward to in the forseeable comic. Giant's track record indicates it'll be beyond awesome.


And for going a bit off topic: How'd an illusion of a pit on solid ground work, assuming victim fails the save? Crunchily he'd probably fall prone and take full falling damage, but how would it look like to someone else who may or may not also failed the save?

[theinsulabot]

"Reasonable limits of epic magic" is an oxymoron. Girard's defense is probably the thing I most look forward to in the forseeable comic. Giant's track record indicates it'll be beyond awesome.


And for going a bit off topic: How'd an illusion of a pit on solid ground work, assuming victim fails the save? Crunchily he'd probably fall prone and take full falling damage, but how would it look like to someone else who may or may not also failed the save?

either that would give automatic knowledge of the pit, which, while that person would still see the illusion of solid ground, they would know it was there, or, more likely, it would operate under the same rules as being warned about an illusion, and that person would gain a plus four to there savings throw vs illusion

[Sholos]

either that would give automatic knowledge of the pit, which, while that person would still see the illusion of solid ground, they would know it was there, or, more likely, it would operate under the same rules as being warned about an illusion, and that person would gain a plus four to there savings throw vs illusion

You reversed it. The pit is what's illusory here, not the ground.

[Zolkabro]

They are in a desert. It will be buried under tons of sand.

'Nuff said.

I kind of like the idea that there are millions of identical gates, all buried, but only one is the right one. All the others are simply portals back to where you started, with no way of knowing which ones you had opened already.
That would be a nightmare.

[kusje]

Didn't the paladin already tell redcloak about the gate's defences?

[theinsulabot]

Didn't the paladin already tell redcloak about the gate's defences?

o-chul was lying remember? he didn't have the faintest clue was was actually happening at girard's gate

[theinsulabot]

You reversed it. The pit is what's illusory here, not the ground.

oh, oops, well, if you have an illusionary pit, and you failed the save, what are you doing walking over it? the only reason you would be on it in the first place is if someone made their save and then walked on it to show everyone else it wasnt real, then all anyone else would have to do is go touch the pit at the edge. once they felt the ground there considered to know about the illusion, so no role is needed. though they would still see the pit and not the ground. course of i was the illusionist i would make an illusionary pit with another, with a few smaller, actual pits thrown into the illusion, with something appropriately deadly at the bottom

[Green Bean]

I kind of like the idea that there are millions of identical gates, all buried, but only one is the right one. All the others are simply portals back to where you started, with no way of knowing which ones you had opened already.
That would be a nightmare.

Nah, it wouldn't be that simple, because just sending someone back to the beginning would let them try again. Stick the other end of a one way portal in another plane, or at the bottom of the ocean, or a mile in the air, or a private demiplane only Girard knows how to get out of.

[TheCoolThatguy]

o-chul was lying remember? he didn't have the faintest clue was was actually happening at girard's gate

No he doesn't. But who wants to bet, just for extra irony, that O-Chul was actually telling the truth?

[Herald Alberich]

No he doesn't. But who wants to bet, just for extra irony, that O-Chul was actually telling the truth?

That the illusions involve riddles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), and the answers are in Serini's diary? That wouldn't get my bet, because it doesn't fit with the Oath of noninterference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) - none of the Scribble members know anything about the other gates. Of course, based on the hearts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) around Girard's picture, Serini had a crush on him, and since Dorukan and Lirian broke the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), it's possible in theory that Girard and Serini did too.

[The Extinguisher]

For the most part, I think those rules were just in place to keep Soon out of everyone's hair.

[Antacid]

They are in a desert. It will be buried under tons of sand.

Remember that the Order of the Scribble had no power to move the locations of the rifts the gates were built around. Unless it was already below ground level, burying it under a pile of sand would require a giant pile of sand that would essentially negate the advantage of burying it in the first place. If you're going to use an illusion to hide something that obvious you may as well just use the illusion to hide the gate normally and not bother burying it, as the illusion won't conceal it's location any more effectively.

[Elfey]

The Crayons do show Girald either making a gate invisible or creating the illusion of the gate. His gate seems to be in a flat stretch of desert, but well, winds move. We don't know if he made a fortress or just took a barren plain and made it more barren.

As awesome as making it just a barren plain with no way to tell would be from an obscurity stand point, I think A. it would be a let down, B. there would be a problem because of sand and dust being blown through would eventually create evidence if you were within a close enough distance.

I'm of the opinion he hid the real gate and made illusions of others. I'm not sure how much maintenance an epic level illusion takes to keep up. Can he just set it up and walk away or does he need to do work replacing smaller component spells from time to time? Could he make multiple dungeons and keep them going?

[Shale]

Remember that the Order of the Scribble had no power to move the locations of the rifts the gates were built around. Unless it was already below ground level, burying it under a pile of sand would require a giant pile of sand that would essentially negate the advantage of burying it in the first place. If you're going to use an illusion to hide something that obvious you may as well just use the illusion to hide the gate normally and not bother burying it, as the illusion won't conceal it's location any more effectively.

Sand dunes aren't exactly unusual. The problem would be disguising the fact that the dune with the gate under it never erodes to ground level, while normal dunes shift with the winds.

[Emanick]

Sand dunes aren't exactly unusual. The problem would be disguising the fact that the dune with the gate under it never erodes to ground level, while normal dunes shift with the winds.

It would take months, years or even more time of hanging around the same area to observe that the dune never eroded, no matter how windy the desert was...

It won't be the most logically hidden gate, and neither will it be hidden in the most dangerous or safest way. Rather, it'll be the most interesting way, relative to the plot.

[Herald Alberich]

For the most part, I think those rules were just in place to keep Soon out of everyone's hair.

Looking back, it does seem like it was Soon against everyone else, doesn't it? Ok, then, how's this: unlike most things that are valuable and locked away, there's never any legitimate reason to access a Gate. There wouldn't be any reason to use riddles, because no one, Good, Evil, or Smart (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlySmartPeopleMayPass), should be able to get past the illusions.

[Forbiddenwar]

Remember that the Order of the Scribble had no power to move the locations of the rifts the gates were built around. Unless it was already below ground level, burying it under a pile of sand would require a giant pile of sand that would essentially negate the advantage of burying it in the first place. If you're going to use an illusion to hide something that obvious you may as well just use the illusion to hide the gate normally and not bother burying it, as the illusion won't conceal it's location any more effectively.

Any stationary object in the desert quickly gets buried in a great pile of sand. It's how sand dunes form in the first place, and how entire cities can disappear in a sandstorm. I think it is perposterous to think that the gate isn't buried under a big pile of sand.

[hamishspence]

pretty much- unless the gate is built on bedrock which extends just our of the dunes, and they never pile up over it.

I've certainly read D&D novels featuring planar gates in the desert- and the gates were buried in sand.

Hmm- gates, sand- we did have a Stargate reference in SoD. I wonder if we will get another?

[warrl]

Sand dunes aren't exactly unusual. The problem would be disguising the fact that the dune with the gate under it never erodes to ground level, while normal dunes shift with the winds.
That doesn't seem like such a huge problem. Every now and then in the Gobi Desert a sand dune shifts in the wind and reveals dinosaur skeletons - which erode fairly quickly when exposed to wind-blown sand, so they have to have been covered by a dune virtually all the time that the area has been desert (and by something else during other periods) for the past 140+ million years. Since the Gobi apparently has been desert for more than 100,000 years, I think it's safe to say that it's not surprising for any given dune to have persisted a mere half-century or so.

Further, with the technology of their world I doubt if they have a diagram of exactly where the dunes have been at any specific time in the past - so, aside from dunes very close to fixed villages and the like, I doubt they would notice if a particular dune does, or does not, move.

[TheCoolThatguy]

That the illusions involve riddles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), and the answers are in Serini's diary? That wouldn't get my bet, because it doesn't fit with the Oath of noninterference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) - none of the Scribble members know anything about the other gates. Of course, based on the hearts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) around Girard's picture, Serini had a crush on him, and since Dorukan and Lirian broke the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), it's possible in theory that Girard and Serini did too.

I was thinking it's not that O-Chul would actually know to be true, but a wild guess that happened to be right

[Holyhatred]

I always thought that as soon as they get close to the gate the group is gonna start having trippy halucinations. Therfore the problem the gate would present would be mental battles. (also the gate would be invisible) And maybe some sort of maze. ;)

[Hann]

:mitd:Wait, what Gate?

[Herald Alberich]

I was thinking it's not that O-Chul would actually know to be true, but a wild guess that happened to be right

I know. I was replying to say it's unlikely to be a correct guess, because the Scribble members aren't supposed to know the details about how each others' gates are defended, so if there were riddles, Serini likely wouldn't have the answers to write down.

And, riddles wouldn't be smart, because that would mean anyone with a sufficiently high Intelligence score could reach the gate, and the idea is that no one at all should access it - because there isn't any conceivable Good reason to mess with it.

[Kish]

So, does anyone have any suggestions as to what the fourth gate is defended by?
The fourth gate doesn't need to be defended. It's much stronger than the fourth wall which surrounds it. *ducks*

[Brendan]

There is an epic that kills someone and then brings them back to life as a servant without anyone noticing. while this is more necromancy than illusions, something that instead creates an illusion of the person to lead their teammates astray could very well be a spell used. "look, sir, the door! I used true seeing and it is real. we are almost to the gate. just touch the door's handle and open it. It is especially necessary to touch the handle..." This could happen. I really imagine redcloak's logic being torn apart in this area. He would hate all of the lies and chaos.

[rewinn]

The fourth gate doesn't need to be defended. It's much stronger than the fourth wall which surrounds it. *ducks*

Argh!

But seriously ... if the fourth gate guards the 4th wall, then destroying the 4th gate drops the 4th wall, therefore releasing a flood of OOTSity into our world ... which means the TRUE IDENTIFY of the 4TH GATE is nothing less than this! (http://www.ookoodook.com/store/comics_order-of-the-stick.shtml)