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Korivan
2009-09-30, 07:07 PM
Out of half a dozen arcane caster PrC's that I like, this one is 2nd on my list. So I was surprised when I was at a buddy's place and we got on the discussion of PrC's and a couple of my friends told me it was a crappy PrC. Thier reasons...

1. Strict requirements, can't normaly take it until you can cast 7th level spells.

2. Thier abilities are powered by spell slots that are "Too vital to waste".

3. Thier abilities arn't that great.

Now, I'll admit that yes, 1) you normally can't take this PrC early on, but I think that was becaue thier too powerfull to make it so that every 6th level magling out there has a level in this.

However, 2) A player starting with an 18 INT, grabs a book for +5 inherent bonus, +5 more from leveling up, +6 more from an item gives a player a 34 INT, that gives you 3 extra spells for levels 1-4, 2 extra spells for levels 5-8, and an extra 9th spell slot. Now I assume that unless your group is running alot of encounters per day, and you really need EVERY spell slot, 4 spells per level with extras is more then enough to get you by, with extra to essentially pay for feats that are often difficult to prepare ahead of time (shaping, elements).

Lastly, 3) the ability they were poking at was Arcane Fire thingy. That I did agree, sucked. Sack a 9th spell slot and another spell slot to do, at most, 14d6 fire damage. Come on, tons of lower level spells do more then that for less then 18 spell levels(range is nice, but points a big finger for everyone to you). The other was the counterspell ability. True, its nicer just to have spell reflection on, but come on, its nice to have a back up incase of an emergency, right?.

Am I wrong to like the Archmage? Is it better to horde your spell slots or something? What am I missing?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-30, 07:09 PM
Sacrificing one spell slot for the ability to, say, freely shape your area spells, or to gain a high-cost spell as a spell-like ability, is very, very worth it. Spell slots aren't exactly hard to find - if you're a Focused Specialist, or an Elven generalist, you'll have more than you'll know what to do with.

The Archmage is in fact one of the better PrCs for Wizards - and you can fit one or two levels of it into practically any build.

And yes, Arcane Fire does, in fact, suck. Like a black hole.

Lamech
2009-09-30, 07:11 PM
Doesn't it give SLA (free still+silence), the energy type changing and shaping? Oh yeah and bonus CL's.

And if you use bloodlines you can get arcance fire up too 17d6!!!!!

Kylarra
2009-09-30, 07:11 PM
Arcane fire and mastery of counterspelling are some of the weaker high arcana.

Arcane Reach, Spell power, SLA, and shaping are all better uses.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-30, 07:12 PM
Well, it's pretty well balanced. Nobody should be able to get something for nothing, PrC-wise. Most casting PrCs should give up caster levels since the only thing that wizards give up are a couple of bonus feats (whoopdie-doo) and familiar progression (and familiars are more of a liability than a bonus). Sorcerers are even worse.

Archmage is one of the very few exceptions to that rule (the other primary ones are mystic theurge and cerebremancer, but you're giving up caster levels for those anyway).

The problem isn't the archmage, mystic theurge, or cerebremancer; it's all of those PrCs that grant you tons of abilities in exchange for virtually nothing.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-30, 07:14 PM
Didn't Sinfire Titan or some others prove conclusively that those spell slots are definitely not "vital"?

Lamech
2009-09-30, 07:16 PM
Although dweamerkeeper, IotSFV, tainted scholar/sorc, and incantrix are all much better.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 07:16 PM
arcane fire and counterspelling both suck like a black hole for a normal mage... counterspelling CAN be useful for very specific sorcerer builds... but normally they suck as your friends mentioned...

BUT...
Who said you have to take all levels of archmage and have to take the sucky abilities?

In a normal game I would take archmage ASAP for 2 levels. then wait until you can cast level 9 spells (more than one that is, don't wanna sacrifice versatility)
Level1: take spell shaping - take ASAP
Level2: take the ability that changes all touch spells to range 30 feet (you can now also chain them to turn them into multi target effects, super powerful with the right spells) - Probably take right after level 1.
Level3: timestop as a spell like ability 2x a day for a 9th and 5th level spell slot. - Only take this after you have aquired a second 9th level slot, you don't wanna use your ONLY slot for it.

spell reach: You can take it twice... but I'd only do that rarely if ever... ONLY do this rarely if you absolutely have to...

Also... when you are high enough level, you can take another level of this to sacrifice a level 5 spell slot and a level 9 spell slot to get TWO castings a day of a level 9 spell of your choice, without having to prepare it.
so two time stops a day for the cost of a 5th level and a 9th level slot are worth it.

tyckspoon
2009-09-30, 07:17 PM
The solution to the problem of Arcane Fire is to not take Arcane Fire. Arcane Reach is good- take it twice if you want. Mastery of Shaping, Elements, and Counterspelling are all very nice for certain styles of caster. Spell-like Ability is just wonderfully awesome- effectively you get to turn a 5th level slot into another 9th level slot. Pick it for something you know you're always going to want around- Foresight, Shapechange, and Time Stop are good choices. And Spell Power is always useful, although you may not actually want to give up too many of your 5th level slots to stack it (keeping in mind that you don't have to actually finish Archmage if you don't want to; take it until you have 9th level slots, get your Spell-Like Ability, finish up with whatever.)

It is true that the high entry requirements mean it's usable in a lower number of games, but that's not really a knock on the class itself, it just restricts when you use it (needing Skill Focus to enter, on the other hand, is just burning a feat for no other use. Which does suck mightily.) When you're playing at levels where you can take it, it's always worth considering.

Salt_Crow
2009-09-30, 07:20 PM
Spell-like ability of the Archmage is such a grand ability imo. Say, sacrificing 5th-level spell slot and a 9th-level spell slot to permanently prepare 2 Shapechanges ain't such a bad thing now, is it? It's worth the cost to get into the PrC.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-30, 07:21 PM
Let's put it this way : it takes what, three feats to get into Archmage, at least 3 that suck? And the two main abilities people like are Master of Shaping and Arcane Reach. Let's see here...Practical Metamagic + Metamagic School Focus = free reach spell 3/day. We can do better. Did we take Incantatrix like a good boy? w00t! Wiz 5/Incant 10/XXXX 5. Now every metamagic gets reduced by 1. For otherwise free, as we can assume this to be an optimal entry into Archmage, or XXXX. Practical Metamagic = free reach spell whenever we want. Let's add to it! If we took Halruuan Elder instead of Archmage, we can get two signature spells, and two metamagic reductions for two of our metamagic feats. Let's say those are Chain Spell and Reach Spell. Now instead of taking Practical Metamagic on reach spell, we take it on Chain, for free Chainreaching. Offensive tapestry, for those who know of my work with War Weavers ;) And Sculpt? Well, +1 isn't anything really, but if you really want it for free, there's always another Practiced Metamagic, or Metamagic School Focus. BUT! Don't forget that you can lay BFC on round one, and then use Metamagic Effect to modify it with a metamagic feat. Sculpted Persistent Cloudkill in the prisoner cell, anyone?

Haven
2009-09-30, 07:23 PM
When I read this thread's title, I thought...

...

The internet has ruined me. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DroppedABridgetOnHim)

Volkov
2009-09-30, 07:25 PM
Sacrificing one spell slot for the ability to, say, freely shape your area spells, or to gain a high-cost spell as a spell-like ability, is very, very worth it. Spell slots aren't exactly hard to find - if you're a Focused Specialist, or an Elven generalist, you'll have more than you'll know what to do with.

The Archmage is in fact one of the better PrCs for Wizards - and you can fit one or two levels of it into practically any build.

And yes, Arcane Fire does, in fact, suck. Like a black hole.
Black holes don't suck at all, they pull.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 07:26 PM
the feat sculp spell (not from achmage) gives you the ability to exclude one and ONLY one creature from a spell... on a DC 25 + spell level spellcraft check.. (don't fail the check while casting an AMF)

it is a nice feat to take if you can't do archmage. But automatically excluding everyone from every spell without a check is nicer. although, granted, its not the end all be all of feats or abilities. Its also not a trap.

And the spellcraft skill focus is probably needed if you want the non archmage sculpt feat too...

I would agree that if you don't take the archmage, the feat to replicate the spell range 30 feet 3/day is good alternative.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-30, 07:26 PM
Not so much pulling as attracting.

olentu
2009-09-30, 07:27 PM
the feat sculp spell (not from achmage) gives you the ability to exclude one and ONLY one creature from a spell... on a DC 25 + spell level spellcraft check..

it is a nice feat to take if you can't do archmage. But automatically excluding everyone from every spell without a check is nicer. although, granted, its not the end all be all of feats or abilities. Its also not a trap.

And the spellcraft skill focus is probably needed if you want the non archmage sculpt feat too...

I would agree that if you don't take the archmage, the feat to replicate the spell range 30 feet 3/day is good alternative.

That might be extraordinary spell aim.

Volkov
2009-09-30, 07:30 PM
And even then, your perfectly capable of escaping them just so long as you don't touch the actual "black" part, which would be the event horizon, the black hole itself would be a extremely tiny object. In fact, many stellar mass black holes orbit around more conventional stars, so they're not the cosmic vacuum cleaners of doom most people make them out to be.

tyckspoon
2009-09-30, 07:32 PM
That might be extraordinary spell aim.

It is. Sculpt Spell is the one that lets you change the area of a spell. Its most infamous use is probably converting very small area spells (ie, the single 10-foot square of Grease, or small radius bursts) into larger and much more oddly shaped ones (4 10-foot cubes. Go ahead, fill 40 cubic feet with Grease.)

taltamir
2009-09-30, 07:38 PM
Extraordinary Spell Aim (complete adventurer)
You can shape a spell’s area to exclude one creature from its effects.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 15 ranks.
Benefit: Whenever you cast a spell with an area, you can attempt to shape the spell’s area so that one creature within the area is unaffected by the spell. To accomplish this, you must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 25 + spell level).
Casting a spell affected by the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat requires a full-round action unless the spell’s normal casting time is longer, in which case the casting time is unchanged.

Sculpt Spell (Complete Arcane)
You can alter the area of your spells.
Prerequisite: Any metamagic feat.
Benefit: You can modify an area spell by changing the area’s shape to either a cylinder (10-foot radius, 30 feet high), a 40-foot cone, four 10-foot cubes, a ball (20-foot-radius spread), or a 120-foot line. The sculpted spell works normally in all respects except for its shape. For example, a lightning bolt whose area is changed to a ball deals the same amount of damage, but affects a 20-foot-radius spread.
A sculpted spell uses a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

I am currently playing a game where I am a rearranger. Whose capstone is too good to pass up, so I will NOT be an archmage.
This means I am planning on taking those two to compensate.
I don't remember what is the feat that lets you change a touch spell to a ranged touch 3/day

in retrospect... sculpt spell can kinda do what the extraordinary spell aim and the archmage ability can... (unless you are in a really confined area or you want to cast a spell with a huge area of effect and exclude yourself)...

ericgrau
2009-09-30, 07:47 PM
Out of the core PrCs it's great, perhaps the best. Its requirements are fairly light compared to, say, loremaster. The only thing you might not want to have anyway is the skill focus. Compared to straight wizard I'd even call it OP.

The two sucky abilities mentioned suck, but the rest are good and you get to take your pick. And honestly you'll have up to 40 spell slots as a wizard. Giving up 1 here and there that isn't even your highest level won't be so bad.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-30, 07:48 PM
And even then, your perfectly capable of escaping them just so long as you don't touch the actual "black" part, which would be the event horizon, the black hole itself would be a extremely tiny object. In fact, many stellar mass black holes orbit around more conventional stars, so they're not the cosmic vacuum cleaners of doom most people make them out to be.
You're "perfectly capable of escaping" assuming that you are traveling at the speed of light. The event horizon is the point beyond which light cannot escape. Slower or more massive objects will have a much harder time.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 07:52 PM
You're "perfectly capable of escaping" assuming that you are traveling at the speed of light. The event horizon is the point beyond which light cannot escape. Slower or more massive objects will have a much harder time.

just cast teleport

Korivan
2009-09-30, 07:52 PM
Let's put it this way : it takes what, three feats to get into Archmage, at least 3 that suck? And the two main abilities people like are Master of Shaping and Arcane Reach. Let's see here...Practical Metamagic + Metamagic School Focus = free reach spell 3/day. We can do better. Did we take Incantatrix like a good boy? w00t! Wiz 5/Incant 10/XXXX 5. Now every metamagic gets reduced by 1. For otherwise free, as we can assume this to be an optimal entry into Archmage, or XXXX. Practical Metamagic = free reach spell whenever we want. Let's add to it! If we took Halruuan Elder instead of Archmage, we can get two signature spells, and two metamagic reductions for two of our metamagic feats. Let's say those are Chain Spell and Reach Spell. Now instead of taking Practical Metamagic on reach spell, we take it on Chain, for free Chainreaching. Offensive tapestry, for those who know of my work with War Weavers ;) And Sculpt? Well, +1 isn't anything really, but if you really want it for free, there's always another Practiced Metamagic, or Metamagic School Focus. BUT! Don't forget that you can lay BFC on round one, and then use Metamagic Effect to modify it with a metamagic feat. Sculpted Persistent Cloudkill in the prisoner cell, anyone?

Wow...me likey.

But ya, I love the Mastery of Shaping, the one thing I didn't like was trying to figure out how to shape X spells with the Sculpt Spell.

Arcane Reach is just nice cause who doesn't like ranged Imprisonment (or the countless melee touch spells we didn't use cause of our d4 hit dice makes melee's scary)

Mastery of Elements is nice when a simple knowledge check can reveal certain valunerabilities (I think you can use it that way).

SLA..... I don't see a drooling smiley face anywhere.

The spell power is nice looking, always like boosting caster levels.

I don't know if I'd take the counterspell, but its a nice option to have if you want it.

Now, I understand Arcane Fire was designed as a way for non-adventuring wizards to have offensive magic if they didn't prepare any that day...But really, how many (high level to Epic)PC wizards DON'T prepare an arsonal to rival the U.S.A.'s nuclear arsonal.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 07:53 PM
Now, I understand Arcane Fire was designed as a way for non-adventuring wizards to have offensive magic if they didn't prepare any that day...But really, how many (high level to Epic)PC wizards DON'T prepare an arsonal to rival the U.S.A.'s nuclear arsonal.

all the good ones, because direct HP damage sucks. they are gonna polymorph you into a newborn puppy, turn you into stone, turn you dead. strike you blind and deaf. mind control you. teleport away... DD is just plain weak. And the arcane fire feat sucks.

You lose a 9th level slot for the privilage... which is a terrible waste.
now lets say you are level 20... so you do 20d6 damage + level of spell consumed... on a ranged touch attack. after sacrificing a level 9 spellslot! This is terrible terrible terrible!
if you absolutely HAVE to use DD there are way better ones out there.

ericgrau
2009-09-30, 07:58 PM
That's still offensive magic. Not that I like arcane fire.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-09-30, 07:59 PM
Let's put it this way : it takes what, three feats to get into Archmage, at least 3 that suck?

Just a quick nitpick, but I'm a big fan of using Master Specialist to partially meet the entry requirements on Archmage. If I'm playing a conjurer, taking Spell Focus (Conjuration) to do triple time on qualifying me for MS, Archmage, and Malconvoker ain't bad. That just means I have to bite the bullet on grabbing Spell Focus (Transmutation/Something else I cast a lot).

Admittedly, core only, you would effectively be wasting two feats on one of the Spell Focuses and the other on the Skill Focus.

Korivan
2009-09-30, 08:08 PM
all the good ones, because direct HP damage sucks. they are gonna polymorph you into a newborn puppy, turn you into stone, turn you dead. strike you blind and deaf. mind control you. teleport away... DD is just plain weak. And the arcane fire feat sucks.

I mispoke. I didn't mean Nuclear in terms of direct damage. But rather pure overkill. Although, I do recall a time when using greater invisibility, nondetection, overland flight, and meteor swarm/fireball to wipe out the enemy's heavy artillery.

Jalor
2009-09-30, 08:09 PM
When I read this thread's title, I thought...

...

The internet has ruined me. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DroppedABridgetOnHim)
I knew I wasn't the only one to read it like that.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 08:47 PM
Spell-Like Ability
An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

The spell-like ability normally uses a spell slot of the spell’s level, although the archmage can choose to make a spell modified by a metamagic feat into a spell-like ability at the appropriate spell level.

The archmage may use an available higher-level spell slot in order to use the spell-like ability more often. Using a slot three levels higher than the chosen spell allows her to use the spell-like ability four times per day, and a slot six levels higher lets her use it six times per day.

If spell-like ability is selected more than one time as a high arcana choice, this ability can apply to the same spell chosen the first time (increasing the number of times per day it can be used) or to a different spell.

Interesting.
Components
A spell’s components are what you must do or possess to cast it. The Components entry in a spell description includes abbreviations that tell you what type of components it has. Specifics for material, focus, and XP components are given at the end of the descriptive text. Usually you don’t worry about components, but when you can’t use a component for some reason or when a material or focus component is expensive, then the components are important.

Verbal (V)
A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell with a verbal component that he or she tries to cast.

Somatic (S)
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

Material (M)
A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

Focus (F)
A focus component is a prop of some sort. Unlike a material component, a focus is not consumed when the spell is cast and can be reused. As with material components, the cost for a focus is negligible unless a price is given. Assume that focus components of negligible cost are in your spell component pouch.

Divine Focus (DF)
A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith.

If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).

XP Cost (XP)
Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are treated just like a material component—expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds.

Ok... so, components... XP and "expensive" material components are not eliminated by the spell like ability of archmage, but the other components are. That means no focus, not verbal, no somatic...

How do you leverage this? for one thing, it seems like getting it for greater teleport using 5th slot and 7th slot eliminates the verbal component. So you can cast greater teleport twice daily merely by willing it so.

However this (greater teleport as spell like ability) seems more like a trap... why?
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.

A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit.

For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is:

10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier.

Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Some creatures are actually sorcerers of a sort. They cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. In fact, an individual creature could have some spell-like abilities and also cast other spells as a sorcerer.


Because you can still be interrupted, and it doesn't work in an anti magic field... so if, say, you are knocked unconscious to find yourself bound and gagged, you could greater teleport out... but only if not in an AMF... of course, the question is, could they even put up a permanent AMF around you... According to the RAW, I don't think you can make AMF permanent... and its only 10 minutes a level.
But, they could have guards around you whose job is to interrupt any casting.
Question is then:
1. can they tell you are casting a spell if it has no components? logically, no. by the RAW, they can tell you are "concentrating" which makes no sense... but the spell like ability info does mention casting defensively. so apparently it is an issue.
2. you can still succeed in the check and teleport away...
3. You can instead use a quickened teleport. It cannot be interrupted. and there is no reason to permantly bind spell slots.

Bottom line is... if you expect to be captured, by enemies who know what they are doing, and they have access to spells which drain you of prepared spells but not of spell like abilities... you could use teleport to get out.

Kylarra
2009-09-30, 08:55 PM
It's not a trap... as long as you make good use of it. See, you're trading a 5th level slot and an Nth level slot for an Nth level spell 2/day. You sacrifice versatility, but say that Nth level slot is 9...

Akal Saris
2009-09-30, 09:07 PM
Just a quick nitpick, but I'm a big fan of using Master Specialist to partially meet the entry requirements on Archmage. If I'm playing a conjurer, taking Spell Focus (Conjuration) to do triple time on qualifying me for MS, Archmage, and Malconvoker ain't bad. That just means I have to bite the bullet on grabbing Spell Focus (Transmutation/Something else I cast a lot).

Admittedly, core only, you would effectively be wasting two feats on one of the Spell Focuses and the other on the Skill Focus.

Dead Cat spoke my mind for me - Archmage is the perfect cap to a COnj 3/M. Spec. 10/Malconvoker 5/XYZ 2 build. (Where XYZ is in fact Archmage!)

Even in core-only games I'd definitely take it - there's very few good feats in core, whereas there are 2-3 good abilities in Archmage - Conjurer 15/Archmage 5 is almost certainly better than Conjurer 20.

AmberVael
2009-09-30, 09:10 PM
3. You can instead use a quickened teleport. It cannot be interrupted. and there is no reason to permantly bind spell slots.

Well, there's also the fact that you'll have those two teleports every day even if you're unable to prepare new spells, or somehow lose your spellbook. Can't forget that.

deuxhero
2009-09-30, 09:18 PM
While an arch-mage could use alter self to change hir gender, it is not a requirement...


err, wrong "trap".

taltamir
2009-09-30, 09:20 PM
Well, there's also the fact that you'll have those two teleports every day even if you're unable to prepare new spells, or somehow lose your spellbook. Can't forget that.

ah... but the whole point of that quickened teleport is to get out of danger and to your spare spellbook... which is hopefully sequestered away somewhere safe, like a demiplane.

aje8
2009-09-30, 10:34 PM
Time Stop as an SLA= not a trap.

Archmage is a good PrC. It is not Incantrix good, but it's still up there. It seems like almost any caster can and should fit some levels in there at the end of the build if they have room.

Espically seeing as qualitfying is much easier with the quickly-becoming-my favorite-PrC Master Specalist. Becuase face it, you were going to take spell focus(Conjuration) anyway, so it basically only consts one feat. The 2nd spell focus. And Spell Focus(Trans.) really isn't that bad.

ericgrau
2009-09-30, 10:39 PM
On the matter of SLA's, yes they have no material, verbal, or somatic components! Though instead of extrapolating this from the archmage description, the rules for SLA's are much more clear on this matter. That means you can cast the SLA in compromising conditions with only a concentration check at worst.

Another trick to consider would be to look through the monster feats to metamagic your SLA's. Namely empower SLA 3/day and quicken SLA 3/day...

Jergmo
2009-09-30, 11:20 PM
Lastly, 3) the ability they were poking at was Arcane Fire thingy. That I did agree, sucked. Sack a 9th spell slot and another spell slot to do, at most, 14d6 fire damage. Come on, tons of lower level spells do more then that for less then 18 spell levels(range is nice, but points a big finger for everyone to you).

Unless you're an Arcane Trickster with levels in Archmage, in which case, it will make people cry.

ericgrau
2009-09-30, 11:39 PM
... at level 20, since you need to burn a 9th level slot to do it and arcane tricksters need 2d6 sneak attack as a pre-req.

The one advantage I can see for arcane fire is that it seems to be untyped damage, rather than true fire. Unless I'm reading it wrong. Oh, and it does okay damage even using a 1st level spell slot. I guess for when you run out of high level spells... except it cost you a 9th level slot to get this minor backup :smallconfused:.

Jergmo
2009-09-30, 11:44 PM
... at level 20, since you need to burn a 9th level slot to do it and arcane tricksters need 2d6 sneak attack as a pre-req.

The one advantage I can see for arcane fire is that it seems to be untyped damage, rather than true fire. Unless I'm reading it wrong. Oh, and it does okay damage even using a 1st level spell slot. I guess for when you run out of high level spells... except it cost you a 9th level slot to get this minor backup :smallconfused:.

If memory serves, it's Force damage.

Kylarra
2009-09-30, 11:49 PM
It's untyped. Better to just take fiery burst or some other reserve feat really.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-09-30, 11:54 PM
To be honest, I don't get why people compare caster PrCs to IotSV and Incantatrix and the like. That's like saying Druid 20 is underpowered because it's not Druid/PS.

Kylarra
2009-10-01, 12:00 AM
To be honest, I don't get why people compare caster PrCs to IotSV and Incantatrix and the like. That's like saying Druid 20 is underpowered because it's not Druid/PS.
Presumably you mean full-caster progression PrCs. :smalltongue:

Akal Saris
2009-10-01, 12:32 AM
Actually, I think he meant what he said - there's no point in comparing any wizard PrC to Incantatrix, because it won't be as good as the Incantatrix - at best, a build will want to use both Incantatrix and the other PrC:

Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5, or
Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/War Weaver 5, or
Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft mage 5, or
Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Malconvoker 5, or
Wiz 5/Incantatrix 8/Initiate of The 7F Veil 7, etc, etc, etc

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-01, 12:32 AM
Let's see.

Arcane Fire: 9th level slot
Benefit: up to 14d6 on a range touch, bypasses all resistance/immunity. Average damage: 49, if a 5th level Archmage blows a 9th level spell.

Evaluation: Crap. The Damage provided is less than a comparable spell. The one exception is a level 5 archmage burning cantrip slots for 5d6. But why on earth would you trade a 9th level slot for that? I mean, I suppose you could prepare highly situational spells, and burn them as needed... But why not just prepare good spells to begin with?

Arcane Reach: 7th level slot
Benefit: Use touch spells at range. Change stat to hit from melee to dex (saves feat: Weapon Finesse).
Many touch spells have powerful effects, without save.

Evaluation: Situational, but potentially great.

Mastery of Counterspelling: 7th level slot
Benefit: Affects any spell counterspelled with Spell Turning.

Evaluation: If you're a focused counterspeller, this is amazing.

Mastery of Elements: 8th level Slot
Essentially Energy Substitution 5 times, spontaneous, and instant.

Evaluation: Makes DD Versatile. However, DD is generally sub-par. If used, Sonic is your friend, for damaging objects. Probably not worth it.

Mastery of Shaping: 6th level Slot
Create Safe Spots in your spells, added flexibility for shapeable spells.

Evaluation: Friendly Fire is a thing of the past. Very worth it, whether it's Cloudkill, Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, or what have you.

Spell Power: 5th level slot
+1 Caster Level for many things. Archmage also advances CL, so this essentially counts twice.

Evaluation: Situational, but useful for level-dependent spells.

Spell Like Ability: 5th level Slot and 1 slot of spell to be altered.
Gives you a spell as a SLA twice a day. Give up a 5th level slot and a 9th level slot, and get Time Stop Twice a day.

Evaluation: Rock Solid. If you know you use a specific High level spell a lot, you can essentially turn a 5th level slot into an extra 8th or 9th level slot.
...

Yup, I'd say it's a strong class, at least for 1-3 levels.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-01, 05:29 AM
Note that the Master Specialist prestige class makes entering Archmage much easier. MS itself is a nice and easy to enter class.

Cyclocone
2009-10-01, 06:29 AM
ah... but the whole point of that quickened teleport is to get out of danger and to your spare spellbook... which is hopefully sequestered away somewhere safe, like a demiplane.

But what if your opponent counterspells your Teleport? :smallwink:

Having Greater Dispel as a SLA is pretty nice if you're fighting a cleric who relies on rings of counterspell to keep his buffs up.


Oh, and about Arcane Fire; so what if it sucks mechanically? it's mind bullets, what more do you need?:smallbiggrin:

Kalirren
2009-10-01, 07:53 AM
Yeah, I have to agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread on Master Specialist. The first time I saw Master Specialist I thought it was imbalanced because it allowed extremely easy entry into Archmage, too easy, I thought. The free Skill Focus (Spellcraft) really just makes it obvious, and the Spell focus just goes without saying, though you probably would have taken it anyway. En fin de compte, if you end up going into Archmage, you end up trading one feat for three class abilities in comparison to straight Wizard into Archmage...who wouldn't take that deal?

Since the answer is "almost no one," I think the class is too strong.

IMHO, Archmage is a good PrC, and also one of the best-written PrCs in 3.X. I'm sure that if more 5-level prestige classes like Archmage had been written geared towards the level 13-20 range, the course of 3.X's development would have taken a completely different turn.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-01, 08:22 AM
Well, there's also the fact that you'll have those two teleports every day even if you're unable to prepare new spells, or somehow lose your spellbook. Can't forget that.

Add in negative levels. SLA don't go away with NLs.

Fluffles
2009-10-01, 08:38 AM
all the good ones, because direct HP damage sucks. they are gonna polymorph you into a newborn puppy, turn you into stone, turn you dead. strike you blind and deaf. mind control you. teleport away...

Or Just use Wish :smallsmile:

AmberVael
2009-10-01, 10:04 AM
ah... but the whole point of that quickened teleport is to get out of danger and to your spare spellbook... which is hopefully sequestered away somewhere safe, like a demiplane.

Yes, because things always go according to plan.
...
Oh wait, things going wrong is why you have a spare spellbook and teleport in the first place. :smalltongue:

The point is, spell-like abilities are much more reliable than just spells. You can't lose them, they don't rely on your spellbook, they come back every day, have no components, don't go away with negative levels (thank you Kaiyan)... etc.

If you want a surefire way to get out of somewhere, Teleport as a spell-like ability is going to get rated pretty high. It isn't fool proof, but it is better than a lot of things.
Including your one shot quickened teleport, which takes up a 9th level spell slot...
Incidentally, you can get Greater Teleport as a spell-like. For a lower spell slot.

ken-do-nim
2009-10-01, 12:08 PM
One thing to point out is that the spell-like-abilities remain at the caster level the wizard was when he/she took them, by RAW (or FAQ). I don't play with that rule myself, and allow them to be cast at the current caster level.

Btw, I always thought this was a better sorcerer prestige class, since they can give up spell slots more easily. My sorcerer has 2 levels of this already, and basically what he's doing is moving a spell into spell-like-ability, then next level retraining that spell slot to something else, so in that way he is expanding his spell list.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-01, 12:19 PM
Dispel Magic on a teleport is rather situational, but can be adequately defended against via Ring of enduring arcana, or simply still+silent the spell. It's rather hard to counterspell, when you're not granted a spellcraft roll to identify.

Regardless, Teleport isn't the greatest use of SLA. It's not needed often enough. Time Stop? Solid Fog? Forcecage?

I can always find 2 uses for those in a day.

AmberVael
2009-10-01, 12:23 PM
One thing to point out is that the spell-like-abilities remain at the caster level the wizard was when he/she took them, by RAW (or FAQ). I don't play with that rule myself, and allow them to be cast at the current caster level.

Actually, under "Spell Like Abilities," it states:


If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.

As Archmage does not state its caster level (as far as I can tell on the SRD, but I tend to miss things right in front of my face), we default to the above rule.

Also, using Forcecage with the Archmage's ability is a supremely bad idea. It has a 1500gp component, and as per the rules...

...a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP.

ken-do-nim
2009-10-01, 03:30 PM
Actually, under "Spell Like Abilities," it states:



As Archmage does not state its caster level (as far as I can tell on the SRD, but I tend to miss things right in front of my face), we default to the above rule.


Hmm... I think I saw it in the FAQ somewhere though. Heh, I like your suggestion better anyway.

Btw, my sorcerer got a spell-like ability on limited wish. Yes, it's an xp hit to use, but I've found that having the flexibility to cast just about anything there is as a spell-like ability is worth it.

AmberVael
2009-10-01, 03:34 PM
Hmm... I think I saw it in the FAQ somewhere though.

The FAQ is not RAW, nor does it give the correct answers, or even good answers sometimes.

Jane_Smith
2009-10-01, 03:40 PM
As for arcane fire? Ask you dm for a homebrewed revision if you want some firepower so you dont have to sacrifice spells per day to toss balls of fire, and instead make it work like the reverse feats in complete mage - does xd6 damage based on the highest spell slot you have prepared still, all day, at will, like a warlock nearly. Just a thought.

mostlyharmful
2009-10-01, 04:04 PM
As for arcane fire? Ask you dm for a homebrewed revision if you want some firepower so you dont have to sacrifice spells per day to toss balls of fire, and instead make it work like the reverse feats in complete mage - does xd6 damage based on the highest spell slot you have prepared still, all day, at will, like a warlock nearly. Just a thought.

still sucks given what a ninth level spell can do, just let them take reserve feats.

Jergmo
2009-10-01, 04:45 PM
Aren't you able to take Arcane Fire more than once? It might be an even worse idea since you give up 2 9th level slots, but the Force damage you're pumping out did just double...

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-01, 05:10 PM
Aren't you able to take Arcane Fire more than once? It might be an even worse idea since you give up 2 9th level slots, but the Force damage you're pumping out did just double...

It doesn't say that you may. Even if you could, you'd just get one at a time.

It's like building two bridges. You still can only cross one at a time.

quick_comment
2009-10-01, 05:39 PM
Limited wish as an SLA for sorcs is amazing, because you can use it to duplicate psychic reformation.

Keld Denar
2009-10-01, 08:18 PM
Yea, but learning Lim Wish as an SLA is pretty expensive right off the bat...



The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

So, at 150 XP, you'd have to pay 1500 XP to get Lim Wish as an SLA. Granted, it would probably pay for itself after 5 days, assuming you used it enough, but still, 1500 xp at one time is quite a bit to pay, especially right after leveling!

taltamir
2009-10-01, 08:37 PM
But what if your opponent counterspells your Teleport? :smallwink:

Having Greater Dispel as a SLA is pretty nice if you're fighting a cleric who relies on rings of counterspell to keep his buffs up.


Oh, and about Arcane Fire; so what if it sucks mechanically? it's mind bullets, what more do you need?:smallbiggrin:


Yes, because things always go according to plan.
...
Oh wait, things going wrong is why you have a spare spellbook and teleport in the first place. :smalltongue:

The point is, spell-like abilities are much more reliable than just spells. You can't lose them, they don't rely on your spellbook, they come back every day, have no components, don't go away with negative levels (thank you Kaiyan)... etc.

If you want a surefire way to get out of somewhere, Teleport as a spell-like ability is going to get rated pretty high. It isn't fool proof, but it is better than a lot of things.
Including your one shot quickened teleport, which takes up a 9th level spell slot...
Incidentally, you can get Greater Teleport as a spell-like. For a lower spell slot.

1. you can NOT counterspell a quickened spell.
2. you CAN disrupt a spell like ability, by dealing damage as an AoO (or require defensive casting and a concentration check); or otherwise interrupting concentration.
3. you can NOT disrupt a quickened spell.
4. While spell like abilities come back for free no matter what, if your spare spellbook was destroyed, you are gagged, and bound, but not in an AMF, not int drained, not spell drained and fully in control of your mind... then you can use either SLA greater teleport or quickened teleport to get away...
teleport runs the risk of a failed teleport, but cannot be interrupted, SLA greater teleport does no have that risk, but can be interrupted via normal means. (aka, AoO from the guard)

Overall I'd rather have both options; if I absolutely had to chose, I'd choose the SLA greater teleport.
Generally, if you are already in a captured, you would probably be unable to escape at all (aka, AMF). But if you are being attacked, you can escape with either.

If your spare spellbook is gone, unlimited teleports are not gonna make you less crippled... you could however, more easily move about buying new spells.

quickened teleport wastes a level 9 slot, while SLA greater teleport a level 5 and level 7... so the SLA is advantageous in this regards.

ericgrau
2009-10-01, 08:46 PM
Yea, but learning Lim Wish as an SLA is pretty expensive right off the bat...


So, at 150 XP, you'd have to pay 1500 XP to get Lim Wish as an SLA. Granted, it would probably pay for itself after 5 days, assuming you used it enough, but still, 1500 xp at one time is quite a bit to pay, especially right after leveling!

No, I think that means Lim Wish still costs 300 xp every time you SLA it ("still does so"), but anything with a gold cost ("costly material component") costs 10 times that amount in xp every time you SLA it.

And if I could spam Lim Wish to my heart's content I'd pay the initial 150 xp in a heartbeat.

AmberVael
2009-10-01, 09:31 PM
1. you can NOT counterspell a quickened spell.
I've no idea where you're getting this from. It isn't under Quicken Spell, it isn't under Counterspelling... so...?


2. you CAN disrupt a spell like ability, by dealing damage as an AoO (or require defensive casting and a concentration check); or otherwise interrupting concentration.
Concentration checks are laughably easy to make. Defensive casting has a DC of 15+spell level. Assuming you've maxed ranks, by the time you're casting Greater Teleport, you have +18 simply in rank bonuses. 15% chance of failure, and that's without any constitution bonus. If you started out with 14 constitution (sounds good for a wizard), you probably got a +2 to constitution somewhere in there (amulet of health?). Tada. You can make a defensive casting check 100% of the time.


3. you can NOT disrupt a quickened spell.
Nothing saying you can't ready an action against a quickened spell, just like any other spell. I've checked under Swift and Readied actions, and there's nothing against it. Again, no idea where you're getting this.

technophile
2009-10-01, 09:37 PM
1. you can NOT counterspell a quickened spell.
You have a reference for that? Because otherwise a readied action can interrupt even a swift action.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-01, 09:40 PM
Personally, I'd choose a spell that I *know* I'd use 2x per day if available. You only have so many 9th level slots, why not maximize the amount of high level spells you can cast?

Time stop is an obvious candidate. Dominate Monster would be, in the unlikely event that I hadn't banned enchantment by then. Heck, even Meteor Swarm isn't bad. Wail of the Banshee and Prismatic Wall are probably things I'd be more likely to grab, though.

AmberVael
2009-10-01, 09:53 PM
See, I personally plan my characters in a completely paranoid manner and attempt to prepare for every circumstance. :smalltongue:

Milskidasith
2009-10-01, 09:56 PM
Time Stop is quite possibly the best SLA you could get, simply because, for paranoid wizards, it means one more encounter they can get away from/kill with no chance of failure per day.

taltamir
2009-10-01, 10:00 PM
Why don't you show me where it explicitly says you can disrupt a swift action?
It seems completely and utterly obvious to me; and any sane DM would rule it so.

But just because and to make sure though I looked up the relevant rules:

Concentration
To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you’re casting, you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell you are trying to cast, the higher the DC is. If you fail the check, you lose the spell just as if you had cast it to no effect.

Injury
If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting). If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between when you start and when you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).

If you are taking continuous damage half the damage is considered to take place while you are casting a spell. You must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + ½ the damage that the continuous source last dealt + the level of the spell you’re casting). If the last damage dealt was the last damage that the effect could deal then the damage is over, and it does not distract you.

Repeated damage does not count as continuous damage.

Therefore you can only be interrupted by injury in one of following occurs:
1. You get hit during casting as a full round action - not applicable here
2. You get hit with an AoO for casting - quickened specifically says you do not provoke, SLA specifically says you do... although you could cast defensively.
3. You get hit by a contingent attack, such as a ready action. - to be discussed further down.
4. You are under a constant damage spell - not applicable here

Now, looking over "ready action", it is naturally completely nonsensical... and yet it still should not interrupt a quickened spell... why?
read it:
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

Initiative Consequences of Readying
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

Distracting Spellcasters
You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result).

Readying to Counterspell
You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell"). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn’t always work.

Readying a Weapon against a Charge
You can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.

The the RAI probably don't mean you can use a full round ready action to intercept a free action, swift, or immediate action, the RAW implies that you could... however, it makes it utterly clear from this line

The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
That your action occurs BEFORE, not DURING the person's action. And for it to disrupt a spell it must be triggered when the person STARTS to cast a spell... then it contradicts other text by saying it disrupts it even if though by its own description the caster was hit before starting the spell, and in fact, cannot even start casting the spell until he is done being hit... (the correct verbage would be "after she starts but before she finishes casting a spell", not before starting.)

Regardless, it specifically says

Distracting Spellcasters
You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result).
Ok, so it is determined by concentration check? lets check the link...

concentration info:

Concentration DC: 10 + damage dealt
Distration: Damaged during the action.2

what is the 2 for? check the bottom of chart:

2.Such as during the casting of a spell with a casting time of 1 round or more, or the execution of an activity that takes more than a single full-round action (such as Disable Device). Also, damage stemming from an attack of opportunity or readied attack made in response to the spell being cast (for spells with a casting time of 1 standard action) or the action being taken (for activities requiring no more than a full-round action).

There you have it, explicit confirmation

PS. the SRD does not include the fluff of "quickened spell" which explains that "with but a thought" you cast a spell in an instant....

PPS. but by the RAW I discovered, you can "ready action" to hit someone with a full round attack when they try to commit a free action or instant action or a swift action (only the last is a spell), you WILL get your attack BEFORE they do the free action, and in fact they cannot even START the free action before you FINISH your full round attack.
If they survive, their spell is at no risk of interruption... but there is still potential for abuse

Keld Denar
2009-10-01, 10:06 PM
Battlemagic Perception and Divine Defiance and Greater Rings of Counterspelling and Rings of Spellbattle still check against Quickened Spells and spells cast as SLAs, so they are still not infaliable as "do what I want when I want" abilities.

arguskos
2009-10-01, 10:39 PM
Hey taltamir, guess what? Your link is wrong. The Rules Compendium overrides the SRD, since it's the newest source, and under the Concentration section, that caveat has (wisely, IMO) been removed. Injury from a readied action can stop even quickened spells. Further, it mentions that if damaged during a spell, add the spell's level to the DC of the check. Page 33 of the book, if you wish to check yourself.

Also, why WOULDN'T it make sense to stop a quickened spell? By RAW, it's still identifiable while casting, meaning that everyone knows something is happening. This means it can be stopped if someone has a readied action to disrupt spells. So, yeah, a character or something can totally stop it. :smalltongue:

taltamir
2009-10-01, 10:44 PM
which rules compendium?

A quickened spell is a swift action, it happens faster than a standard action, MUCH faster actually (heck, it supposedly happens at the speed of thought). readied action makes no sense... if you can do that, then you can ready action to "run" as soon as someone tries to target you or your location. Since it instantly and completely executes your action before allowing the person to finish theirs, you can now dodge bullets matrix style.
If that is not the case, then the spell goes off before you connect with the blade, and the fireball hits you before you run 4x your base speed. (120 feet commonly)

readied action should be matching the action taken to the action taken against.. aka, a swift action can interrupt a swift action, a standard interrupt a standard, and so on...
Also.. "ready action, hit him with disintegrated if he starts to scream"... no more screaming for guards, ever. Because you FINISH hitting them with the spell before they are allowed to begin the free action of screaming. (talk)

arguskos
2009-10-01, 10:47 PM
The book called the RULES COMPENDIUM! :smalltongue:

Also, common sense has no damn place in RAW debates. Don't like it? Deal. RAW says it can work so it does. (Note: I don't really like this much, and it rarely works with common sense, so meh)

Lastly, why oh WHY are you trying your best to screw martial characters more than they already are? Just let quickened spells be stopped and revel in the fact that casters are still leagues better than martial ever will be EVER.

taltamir
2009-10-01, 10:53 PM
i meant it makes no sense mechanically with what it can get you to do... by the RAW you can do it if the newer rules compendium removed that limitation. I was expressing my exasperation at them actually removing said limitation.


Lastly, why oh WHY are you trying your best to screw martial characters more than they already are? Just let quickened spells be stopped and revel in the fact that casters are still leagues better than martial ever will be EVER.
Because they have to essentially god mode to do so... besides which, this does NOT help martial casters, it helps EVERYONE... you can ready an action to cast a spell.. so you can ready a standard action spell to interrupt a swift spell; or a free action...

game wise, just use a move action before casting (they have to be within 5 foot step range), or... well i am looking into it.
But while you can foil a fighter's readied action by moving THEN using a swift action, a wizard will still be in range to hit you with his readied action standard action spell... if anything this hurts fighters more.


Readying to Counterspell
You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell"). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn’t always work.
It explicitly says you can ready spells... so by allowing a standard action to intercept a free one, you allow using a regular spell to counterspell a quickened spell, or intercept a fighter free action, or anything you want... putting one more awesome tool in the wizard's belt. (ex: I ready action to hit it with my spell as soon as it breaks the wooden cage)

LurkerInPlayground
2009-10-01, 10:57 PM
On the matter of SLA's, yes they have no material, verbal, or somatic components! Though instead of extrapolating this from the archmage description, the rules for SLA's are much more clear on this matter. That means you can cast the SLA in compromising conditions with only a concentration check at worst.

Another trick to consider would be to look through the monster feats to metamagic your SLA's. Namely empower SLA 3/day and quicken SLA 3/day...
How about teleport?

sonofzeal
2009-10-01, 10:57 PM
Do ready actions really come up in the middle of combat enough to be worth all this fuss? I mean, how often do your characters bypass their turns on the chance they might be able to do something slightly more effective later on?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-01, 10:58 PM
Well, it helps everyone, but it doesn't help everyone equally.

Non-casters suffer nothing from the risk of having a quickened spell interrupted. Casters do.

But yeah...if you're out of range, go nuts. And frankly, as a caster, being out of range is something you're trying for anyhow.

arguskos
2009-10-01, 11:02 PM
I'm just going to walk away from this, because if you are capable of accepting the basic premise of D&D (that people can Jump dozens of feet on command, make large sections of the ground simply stop existing with no actual issues to anything at all, and other such brutalities of physics) and are yet unwilling to accept that a dude with a sharp stick can distract someone who is thinking really hard by jabbing them with said stick, nothing I can ever say will convince you otherwise. :smallsigh:

Also, yes, readied actions come up fairly frequently in my sessions, since they're a good tactical option in combats. Also, I as the DM use them frequently.

taltamir
2009-10-01, 11:10 PM
I'm just going to walk away from this, because if you are capable of accepting the basic premise of D&D (that people can Jump dozens of feet on command, make large sections of the ground simply stop existing with no actual issues to anything at all, and other such brutalities of physics) and are yet unwilling to accept that a dude with a sharp stick can distract someone who is thinking really hard by jabbing them with said stick, nothing I can ever say will convince you otherwise. :smallsigh:

Also, yes, readied actions come up fairly frequently in my sessions, since they're a good tactical option in combats. Also, I as the DM use them frequently.

I am totally willing to accept this premise. what I was questioning was only how the speed at which the dude was thinking interacts with the speed at which the guy with the stick was jumping.
Because it can go the other way... ready action to cast a standard action spell in response to the guy "making sound with their voice" would make it impossible for them to call for help because I could interrupt their yell for help (a quick free action) with a lengthy spell; and actually finish casting the spell before they are even allowed to start yelling... it will actually be quite a useful tool in the caster's toolbox.
Or ready action with a regular spell to hit a spellcaster right before he uses a quickened spell.

But heck, if you wanna give fighters some extra beefing up... houserule it so that readied action is capable of intercepting a swift action with a standard melee action (already allowed). But not permissible to do so with a standard spell action (currently allowed).

sonofzeal
2009-10-01, 11:15 PM
Also, yes, readied actions come up fairly frequently in my sessions, since they're a good tactical option in combats. Also, I as the DM use them frequently.
I use them, but mostly as a form of stealing initiative. "Ready action for when he rounds the corner", more so than "okay I could attack him now, but instead I'm just going to hope he's stupid enough to do exactly what I think he's going to do, so I can attack him slightly more effectively."

Can work for archers, but rather pointless for melee (who can't count on maintaining range) or casters (who are usually better off just tossing out their spells and hoping for an even faster victory that way).

arguskos
2009-10-01, 11:17 PM
I use them, but mostly as a form of stealing initiative. "Ready action for when he rounds the corner", more so than "okay I could attack him now, but instead I'm just going to hope he's stupid enough to do exactly what I think he's going to do, so I can attack him slightly more effectively."

Can work for archers, but rather pointless for melee (who can't count on maintaining range) or casters (who are usually better off just tossing out their spells and hoping for an even faster victory that way).
Basically yeah. Like I said, as the DM, I frequently use readied actions to trick players, cheat on init, and other such shenanigans. It's pretty good, actually.

Keld Denar
2009-10-01, 11:21 PM
I dunno, if you are gonna blast, readying an action to blast an enemy who's a spellcaster is often a good idea. Forcing really high concentration checks is a good idea, at least for 1 round out of the game. If you're gonna disable, though, best off disabling off the bat, rather than waiting for your opponent to do something.

For a melee, it CAN be good, but generally only when you are threatening with close reach (5' and 10' reach), and have Thicket or Bulwark, and have the ability to stop said caster from moving with an AoO (IE, Standstill, Imp Trip). Or maybe in the case where the caster doesn't know you are there (Invisible + Mind Blanked hangin out).

But yea, other than that, you are better off trying to full attack.

taltamir
2009-10-01, 11:43 PM
hey... this is cool and would make DD actually useful (as a counter speller build)... forget about counterspelling. Ready action to hit a person with DD when they cast... now they have to make a crazy high concentration check or the spell fizzles. And they still did damage.

Alejandro
2009-10-01, 11:49 PM
http://blogs.sltrib.com/movies/uploaded_images/akbar1-749394.jpg

taltamir
2009-10-02, 12:19 AM
point... just kill the sucker.

Ernir
2009-10-02, 12:38 AM
A quickened spell is a swift action, it happens faster than a standard action, MUCH faster actually (heck, it supposedly happens at the speed of thought).
The perceived "speed" at which actions occur is not very relevant. There are no rules for how little time an action may take before it is "uncounterable" by a standard action.

readied action makes no sense... if you can do that, then you can ready action to "run" as soon as someone tries to target you or your location.
Well, you can't ready a "run", as that requires a full round (and you can not ready a full round action, only move, standard, free and swift actions), but you can ready a move action to "move away" should someone come within x feet of you. So you can dodge a sword with some planning.

Or at least, if there is a RAW problem with this, I have not found it.

Since it instantly and completely executes your action before allowing the person to finish theirs, you can now dodge bullets matrix style.
Not quite. Once the readied action has been carried out, the other's action is carried out normally - which most of the time is specified as "I shoot you" not "I shoot at whoever may be standing the space in which you are at the beginning of my turn". If you are still in range, the bullet/spell/arrow will still hit you in your new location.

But heck, if you wanna give fighters some extra beefing up... houserule it so that readied action is capable of intercepting a swift action with a standard melee action.
But... that is the rule already. :smallconfused:

You can ready any standard, move, swift or free action to be contingent on another's action. "I attack the mage if he casts a spell" does not in any way demand that the mage cast the spell as a standard action.


hey... this is cool and would make DD actually useful (as a counter speller build)... forget about counterspelling. Ready action to hit a person with DD when they cast... now they have to make a crazy high concentration check or the spell fizzles. And they still did damage.
I have seen this praised as being the best way to "counterspell". :smalltongue:

Also, check out Defenestrating Sphere. Forces multiple concentration checks. So cool. :smallcool:

taltamir
2009-10-02, 12:57 AM
Well, you can't ready a "run", as that requires a full round (and you can not ready a full round action, only move, standard, free and swift actions), but you can ready a move action to "move away" should someone come within x feet of you. So you can dodge a sword with some planning.

Or at least, if there is a RAW problem with this, I have not found it.
Ok, yes, do that.
Ready a move action if someone attacks you... fighter comes in range and decides to attack, you move away, he now cannot attack as you are out of range and he is out of move.


Not quite. Once the readied action has been carried out, the other's action is carried out normally - which most of the time is specified as "I shoot you" not "I shoot at whoever may be standing the space in which you are at the beginning of my turn". If you are still in range, the bullet/spell/arrow will still hit you in your new location.
But what if he casts an area of effect spell?
Me: I read action to move if he casts a spell
Enemy wizard: casts cloud kill centered on party
Me: I move out of range

even if we say he pointed the area spell freely, we are now not bunched together so he can only hit some of us, while he counted on hitting all of us.


But... that is the rule already. :smallconfused:
Sorry I was unclear. I meant that this is still allowed with melee, while no longer allowed with magic (before it was allowed with both).
My main point is that this is not just a boon to martial characters since casters can use it even better (at range; with DD)...


I have seen this praised as being the best way to "counterspell". :smalltongue:

Also, check out Defenestrating Sphere. Forces multiple concentration checks. So cool. :smallcool:
I will look it up

taltamir
2009-10-02, 01:04 AM
I was looking over quicken spell in the PHB:

QUICKEN SPELL [METAMAGIC]
You can cast a spell with a moment’s thought.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You can per-
form another action, even casting another spell, in the same round
as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell
per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round
action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot
four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened
spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously
(including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast
spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously
cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round
action.
It says it is a FREE action... where did the SRD get that it is a swift action? I assume there must have been some newer ruling somewhere that adjusted it that way.

Milskidasith
2009-10-02, 01:05 AM
As for standard actions not making sense to interrupt swift actions... A swift action takes about one second (I think that was mentioned somewhere, but it's fluff so it is kind of unimportant.) With good reflexes, a human can react to something in .2 seconds. Not that hard to swing a sword in the .8 second window you have when they start casting.

Anyway, readied actions have come up in the game I'm in a good bit... but the kind of readied actions some of my group takes are, quite frankly, completely terrible (I ready an action to attack one particular enemy with my main weapon if he takes back the mace I spent last turn picking up and offering to him instead of attacking.)

DemonSlayer
2009-10-02, 02:12 AM
Hm. About arcane fire again, is it really that useless? Sure, there are spells that do more damage, but arcane fire has its merits. It doesn't have spell resistance, nor does it allow a saving throw.
It requires a ranged touch attack, but at that level you should be able to make it. Also, it's a supernatural ability, so that means nothing short of an antimagic field can stop it.
Plus, if you use it in combination in combination with multiple "spell power" abilities, then you could do 18d6 untyped damage.
The spell slot loss is bad, but then again, I play a sorcerer, not a wizard. What's 6 wishes going to do that 4 can't?
Finally, it has amazing range.

All in all, pretty good as far as pure damage "spells" go...

Cyclocone
2009-10-02, 02:45 AM
I was looking over quicken spell in the PHB:

It says it is a FREE action... where did the SRD get that it is a swift action? I assume there must have been some newer ruling somewhere that adjusted it that way.

Indeed, it's mentioned in the SpC and quite alot of the other books. The "free" thing is an out-dated left-over from 3e.

At any rate, trying to apply logic to swift actions is a lost cause.
It invariably brings up the question of why you can't exchange your standard action for a huge butt-load of swift actions; if they really are that fast.
It's like the standard=move, move =/=standard farce; best not to think about it.

Keld Denar
2009-10-02, 03:28 AM
It was made a swift action when swift actions were invented...sometime around Complete Arcane, IIRC. When the PHB was printed, there were no Swift or Immediate actions. Since then, there has been a sidebar printed in EVERY book that dictates that certain actions are swift or immediate that were previously free.

lord_khaine
2009-10-02, 03:46 AM
Ok, yes, do that.
Ready a move action if someone attacks you... fighter comes in range and decides to attack, you move away, he now cannot attack as you are out of range and he is out of move.


And then you eat a aoo instead, from moving away.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-02, 03:54 AM
I was looking over quicken spell in the PHB:

It says it is a FREE action... where did the SRD get that it is a swift action? I assume there must have been some newer ruling somewhere that adjusted it that way.

There is. Swift actions are a relatively late invention in the 3.X line.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-02, 03:59 AM
And then you eat a aoo instead, from moving away.

1 at the best. Sometimes even 6 for a single triggering action.

tyckspoon
2009-10-02, 04:28 AM
Hm. About arcane fire again, is it really that useless? Sure, there are spells that do more damage, but arcane fire has its merits. It doesn't have spell resistance, nor does it allow a saving throw.
It requires a ranged touch attack, but at that level you should be able to make it. Also, it's a supernatural ability, so that means nothing short of an antimagic field can stop it.
Plus, if you use it in combination in combination with multiple "spell power" abilities, then you could do 18d6 untyped damage.
The spell slot loss is bad, but then again, I play a sorcerer, not a wizard. What's 6 wishes going to do that 4 can't?
Finally, it has amazing range.


Yes, yes it is. The damage is hard-capped at 14d6; that's what you get if you burn a 9th level spell into it and take all the levels of Archmage. Note it says class levels, not caster levels- only your levels of Archmage and the level of the spell slot you contribute count. And you get to burn 2 9th level slots to do that damage- one permanently to acquire the ability in the first place and another each time you wish to use it. Even in a Core environment that's not impressive; you do better with a Meteor Swarm (Long range, touch attacks, offers no save if you make the touch) or a Polar Ray (which is one of the worst spells in the PHB.) Out of Core, the Orb spells do everything Arcane Fire does except the range. No save, no SR, touch attack, and to pile insult on injury, their damage cap is higher, all in a mere 4th level slot.

DemonSlayer
2009-10-02, 05:42 AM
Ok... on the other hand, it's not a spell, so it can't be dispelled... Also, untyped damage means no resistances apply. While resistance really puts a dent in the spells you just named.

Besides, being able to spontaneously convert any spell slot into a damage-dealing slot has to count for something, too. Especially for wizards.

Sliver
2009-10-02, 05:51 AM
Besides, being able to spontaneously convert any spell slot into a damage-dealing slot has to count for something, too. Especially for wizards.

I would think that reserve feats would do that better.. Less damage I think, but unlimited use and only 1 spell slot is converted to fuel them all, and you can still use it in the end if you want.

Milskidasith
2009-10-02, 06:06 AM
Ok... on the other hand, it's not a spell, so it can't be dispelled... Also, untyped damage means no resistances apply. While resistance really puts a dent in the spells you just named.

Besides, being able to spontaneously convert any spell slot into a damage-dealing slot has to count for something, too. Especially for wizards.

There are more ways to get around resistance than you know of, and small amounts of resistance can't beat the metamagic you can slam onto the orb spells. And dispelling a direct damage spell is... impossible, in fact. Counterspelling, yes, but when the enemy is readying actions against you, you're already winning.

Also, the Orb spells can even go into AMFs, so they win in that respect. And spontaneously converting spell slots into (terrible) damage spells is horrible as a wizard; it would be easier to just prepare a few damage spells in lower level slots, because most of them are better than Arcane Fire anyway. Burning a Time Stop for 14d6 is incredibly bad even if direct damage matters, which it doesn't.

So in short: No, converting good prepared spells into bad direct damage is a bad trade, and direct damage is generally so bad that it isn't worth even trying to get the good ones.

Cyclocone
2009-10-02, 06:11 AM
Ok... on the other hand, it's not a spell, so it can't be dispelled... Also, untyped damage means no resistances apply. While resistance really puts a dent in the spells you just named.

Besides, being able to spontaneously convert any spell slot into a damage-dealing slot has to count for something, too. Especially for wizards.

Sure, spontaneous blasting is great for your versatility, if you actually intend to use blasting -Arcane Fire just does a very poor job at it.
Really, the problem isn't just that it cost you a 9th level slot, it's also that it requires a 9th level slot. So basically you have to be level freaking 17 to get it, and who the hell is going to wait that long?
Just prepare Magic Missile and buy a stack of Pearls of Power I; much better and cheaper than Arcane Fail as well as Reserve Fail.

If you want meaningfull spontaneous blastan, be a Halruaan Elder instead and go down the old orb route.

ken-do-nim
2009-10-02, 07:34 AM
I remember when I first read the description of arcane fire; I couldn't believe how bad it was, especially with how well thought out the rest of the class' powers are. My only guess is that the author felt that the long range untyped nature of the power means that your archmage could stay far, far away from his enemies and damage them without retaliation.

How many other spells or missile weapons have 440 foot range?

Edit: Oh, and I typically see your 5th level archmage burning 1st - 3rd level spell slots with this, doing 6-8 dice damage. Very puny, but I suppose if he can do it from so far away, it's more worthwhile? Probably better for the BBEG than a party member.

ericgrau
2009-10-02, 08:11 AM
Hey taltamir, guess what? Your link is wrong. The Rules Compendium overrides the SRD, since it's the newest source, and under the Concentration section, that caveat has (wisely, IMO) been removed. Injury from a readied action can stop even quickened spells. Further, it mentions that if damaged during a spell, add the spell's level to the DC of the check. Page 33 of the book, if you wish to check yourself.

Also, why WOULDN'T it make sense to stop a quickened spell? By RAW, it's still identifiable while casting, meaning that everyone knows something is happening. This means it can be stopped if someone has a readied action to disrupt spells. So, yeah, a character or something can totally stop it. :smalltongue:
I don't think that caveat ever existed. The rules compendium just clarified that "ambiguous" issue. Though technically "you can ready an action to interrupt another" should include all actions. To everyone who says "X must be true until you prove otherwise" I say "Haha, no."

A quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, which is nice. It might also be the source of "can't be interrupted" confusion. And often it's all you need to get away with a teleport anyway. Well, that and a DC 24 concentration check if you count being tied up as "entangled". But once you can cast 9th level spells you already have a 20+ in concentration.

taltamir
2009-10-11, 03:03 PM
I found yet another interesting feat that obsoletes an archmage ability:


Innate Spell (Player's Guide to Faerun P39)
You have mastered a spell so thoroughly that you can now use it as a spell like ability.
Prerequisite: Silent Spell, Still Spell
Benefit: Choose a spell that you know. You can now use this spell three times per day as a spell-like ability. If you the innate spell has an XP cost, you pay that cost each time you use the spell. If it has a focus, you must have it to use the spell in this manner. If the innate spell has a costly material component, you need an item worth 50 times that amount to use as a focus for the spell-like ability. Otherwise, you need no components to use the innate spell as a spell-like ability.
You must permanently assign one spell slot of the appropriate spell level to the innate spell. Ypu can't use this spell slot for anything else - that is, you can cast one fewer spell per day at that spell level than you could if you didn't have an innate spell. For example, if you could normally cast three 3rd-level spells per day and you chose fireball as your innate spell, you can now cast only two 3rd level spells per day, but you gain three uses per day of the fireball as a spell-like ability.
Special: You can choose this feat more than once, selecting a different innate spell each time.

Did someone mention an ability to turn a touch spell into a ranged touch spell without the archmage ability? (so that it could be chained?)

Ernir
2009-10-11, 03:18 PM
Did someone mention an ability to turn a touch spell into a ranged touch spell without the archmage ability? (so that it could be chained?)

Reach Spell, a +2 metamagic.

Keld Denar
2009-10-11, 03:28 PM
Reach spell is rather debatable. It depends on how metamagic stacking is handled, which is barely covered. We know that damage is always factored seperately (given the interaction between Empower and Maximize), but whether you can use 1 MM feat to qualify for another MM feat is totally not covered anywhere in the core rules. The closest thing is the interaction between Rapid Spell (CDivine) and Quicken Spell in the Special clause following the feat description.


Special: A spell can be made rapid and quickened only if its original casting time was 1 full round. <snip>

Neither Reach Spell nor Chain Spell contain any type of clause like this. Its even rather debatable whether or not you can chain Arcane Reached spells, since you don't prepare the spell with Arcane Reach, and you can't normally apply MM feats to spells that they don't qualify for.

So yea, whether you could Reach and then Chain a spell is...contestable as design intent and thus up to DM interpretation.

Indon
2009-10-11, 04:33 PM
Bottom line is... if you expect to be captured, by enemies who know what they are doing, and they have access to spells which drain you of prepared spells but not of spell like abilities... you could use teleport to get out.

Or you could Shapechange into a Titan and just go to town.

Even if every other Archmage ability sucked (and they don't), you could always take 5 levels of it to turn 5 awesome spells into SLA's. You won't have any 5th level slots by the time you're done, but who cares?

Edit:

I found yet another interesting feat that obsoletes an archmage ability:
The Archmage ability is still better in that you don't need a focus for the SLA's for it - you can also take a new one every level for 5 levels instead of spending valuable feats on them.

Of course, you could spend all your feats on that and take five levels of Archmage for the SLA ability and have a ton of SLA's!

taltamir
2009-10-11, 04:39 PM
Reach Spell, a +2 metamagic.

well that sucks... it is better to take one level of archmage and get it for "free" for all spells.

arguskos
2009-10-11, 05:13 PM
Of course, you could spend all your feats on that and take five levels of Archmage for the SLA ability and have a ton of SLA's!
And not many remaining spell slots to speak of... but honestly, that's a really tempting character idea. Take Dim Door, Fly, and other such excellent utility spells, and prepare more esoteric stuff in your spell slots, and you might have a winner.

Hmm, to the drawing board for character creation! :smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-11, 05:20 PM
And then you eat a aoo instead, from moving away.

Not if you tumble. OR you trigger their move to them entering within their offensive reach.

Your action triggers before, so they haven't quite entered yet, and you move. Great for thwarting charges. Readied actions are deadly weapons. They really are.

ex cathedra
2009-10-11, 05:47 PM
I found yet another interesting feat that obsoletes an archmage ability:


Yes, because Innate Spell allows you to cast SLA Time Stops.

That feat is terrible. Archmage is better than wizard/sorcerer levels, but is not necessarily other prestige classes. IotSfV, Incant, Abjurant Champion (for certain builds), and a handful of others have more priority, in my opinion.

taltamir
2009-10-11, 05:57 PM
Yes, because Innate Spell allows you to cast SLA Time Stops.

That feat is terrible. Archmage is better than wizard/sorcerer levels, but is not necessarily other prestige classes. IotSfV, Incant, Abjurant Champion (for certain builds), and a handful of others have more priority, in my opinion.

This post confuses me... converting 1 feat slot + 1 9th level slot into 3/day 9th level casting of time stops is... terrible?
Granted it has sub par prereqs (still and silent), but so does archmage. Archmage takes a 5th level slot and a 9th level slot to give you 2 9th level SLA a day.


Yes, because Innate Spell allows you to cast SLA Time Stops.

That feat is terrible. Archmage is better than wizard/sorcerer levels, but is not necessarily other prestige classes. IotSfV, Incant, Abjurant Champion (for certain builds), and a handful of others have more priority, in my opinion.

Just because there might be something even better doesn't mean this is terrible... that "even better" thing might not be allowed... And I was only comparing this feat to the archmage ability...

BTW, you can cast SLA defensively.

ex cathedra
2009-10-11, 06:31 PM
This post confuses me... converting 1 feat slot + 1 9th level slot into 3/day 9th level casting of time stops is... terrible?
Granted it has sub par prereqs (still and silent), but so does archmage. Archmage takes a 5th level slot and a 9th level slot to give you 2 9th level SLA a day.


Your confusion probably stems from the fact that the feat you're referencing has been reprinted and, therefore, the version that you're suggesting is not a valid choice. Innate Spell was reprinted roughly eight months after its appearance in PGtF, and no longer works the way you would like.

taltamir
2009-10-11, 06:34 PM
Your confusion probably stems from the fact that the feat you're referencing has been reprinted and, therefore, the version that you're suggesting is not a valid choice. Innate Spell was reprinted roughly eight months after its appearance in PGtF, and no longer works the way you would like.

where has it been reprinted and how does it work now?

Kylarra
2009-10-11, 06:34 PM
For reference, Innate spell was reprinted in C Arcane, now requires quicken spell in addition to still and silent spell (not an issue), but it requires you to give up a slot 8 levels higher for the SLA, so... yeah. Somewhat weaker.

taltamir
2009-10-11, 06:36 PM
For reference, Innate spell was reprinted in C Arcane, now requires quicken spell in addition to still and silent spell (not an issue), but it requires you to give up a slot 8 levels higher for the SLA, so... yeah. Somewhat weaker.

EIGHT! As in, give up a 9th level slot for 1st level SLA? are they out of their minds?

EDIT: actually they made another change... they made it at will at once per round instead of 3/day. So that actually makes slightly more sense... Still... at will casting of a first level spell at the cost of a 9th level spell is a terrible trade.

Kylarra
2009-10-11, 06:37 PM
EIGHT! As in, give up a 9th level slot for 1st level SLA? are they out of their minds?Well it is at-will rather than 3/day, but yes.

ex cathedra
2009-10-11, 06:56 PM
Admittedly, you would have a case if the feat weren't reprinted. But, since it has been, it doesn't compare well to the Archmage ability at all.

arguskos
2009-10-11, 07:11 PM
Damn, I thought the PGtF was after C. Arcane. In that case, yeah, I'll agree with the idea that Innate Spell is pretty much awful. /facepalm

ex cathedra
2009-10-11, 07:15 PM
Damn, I thought the PGtF was after C. Arcane. In that case, yeah, I'll agree with the idea that Innate Spell is pretty much awful. /facepalm

PGtF was March 04. Complete Arcane? November of the same year.

arguskos
2009-10-11, 07:21 PM
PGtF was March 04. Complete Arcane? November of the same year.
Damn. I always considered PGtF as an older book than C. Arcane, since it's much more interesting and detailed than CArc. Fair enough though. I will probably permit Innate as in PGtF with Quicken/Silent/Still as prereqs, since if your players are reasonable, it's pretty neat.

sambo.
2009-10-11, 09:55 PM
my $0.02.....

i rekon archmage is an awesome PrC. some of those High Arcanas might be a little expensive in terms of high level spellslots, but i rekon you get back a lot more than you give.

arcane reach: yeah baby!

shaping: what spellcaster wouldn't want this sort of ability? sure, sculpt spell does the same thing (essentially), but the shaping arcana doesn't require you to prepare this sort of thing in advance.

counterspelling: i use a (greater?) Dispell Magic and get all the benefits of a Spell Turning? yes please.

arcane fire: ok, it's kind of sucky. but being able to turn any spell into a Force descriptor offensive spell opens up a lot of flexibility for wizards (not so much for sorcerers). sometimes you just want to make someone hurt. turning a cantrip into a 5d6 offensive spell can be useful. i rekon it's pretty damned expensive at a 9th level spell slot. if it was a 7th or 8th, it would be much less sucky.

spell like ability: i can sacrifice a 9th and a 5th level spell slot and get that same 9th level spell twice a day? for my counterspelling build idea, if/when i ever get some levels of archmage (lvls 21+ >.>) i can see myself abusing this particular High Arcana.

Eldariel
2009-10-11, 10:03 PM
my $0.02.....

i rekon archmage is an awesome PrC. some of those High Arcanas might be a little expensive in terms of high level spellslots, but i rekon you get back a lot more than you give.

arcane reach: yeah baby!

shaping: what spellcaster wouldn't want this sort of ability? sure, sculpt spell does the same thing (essentially), but the shaping arcana doesn't require you to prepare this sort of thing in advance.

counterspelling: i use a (greater?) Dispell Magic and get all the benefits of a Spell Turning? yes please.

arcane fire: ok, it's kind of sucky. but being able to turn any spell into a Force descriptor offensive spell opens up a lot of flexibility for wizards (not so much for sorcerers). sometimes you just want to make someone hurt. turning a cantrip into a 5d6 offensive spell can be useful. i rekon it's pretty damned expensive at a 9th level spell slot. if it was a 7th or 8th, it would be much less sucky.

spell like ability: i can sacrifice a 9th and a 5th level spell slot and get that same 9th level spell twice a day? for my counterspelling build idea, if/when i ever get some levels of archmage (lvls 21+ >.>) i can see myself abusing this particular High Arcana.

You left out Spell Power, which is just great. Everything that increases your CL is especially awesome in caster vs. casters fights (where Dispels play a huge part) and in keeping certain buffs on indefinitely and in using uncapped offense spells that get stronger as your CL increases.

Many spells only cap at CL 25, which means they maintain their usefulness all the way to level 20, and as you pretty much will only offensively use the spells without limits as you get far into 20s, is very relevant even into the epic.


Mastery of Counterspelling is kinda niché, but if you're already heavily invested in efficient Countermagic, it's great.

Korivan
2009-10-11, 10:27 PM
And forgot Mastery of Elements. Which is great for any Sorcerer or Wizard using lots of damaging type spells. A quick knowledge check and BAM!!!, switch out to the element the opponent is weak/not imune too.