PDA

View Full Version : Making PC's fear death [3.5]



Physics_Rook
2009-10-01, 01:43 AM
It's always been an issue for me.
PC have always deaths seemed like little more the inconvenient speed bumps.

In a way, it's nice to know that your character can't easily be permanently killed off, and you can nearly always get a second chance. But I think it lulls the PCs into not taking death as seriously.

Consider PCs who'll rush into battle against creatures that would normally scare the doritos out them. I'm not saying that they shouldn't rush into battles like these. Just that they have no fear.
For them, the worst is a little embarrassment for tripping onto their own sword, and then an 8 hour wait while the cleric preps a lets-pretend-it-never-happened spell, or the wizard readies a teleport to the nearest friendly temple.

Granted, in the early levels this isn't really the case. But by the higher levels, it practically becomes part of the planning process. "Don't worry Jim, if you die we'll just take a quick breather while Mike raises you."

What do you think? Death has no teeth anymore?
How would you put the fear of death back into PCs?

One way certainly, is to simply ban all resurrection spells.
Another way, would to make the death of a PC spell dire consequences for the party.


My personal inclination is to make all raise dead, resurrection and effective do-over spells, only available on scrolls. Scrolls which can't be created. And of which only a finite number exist.

Obviously they'll have become incredibly rare and coveted things. And can even serve as a hook for adventures. (Mayhaps the King's personal scroll has been stolen or even used, and the PCs need to find him another).

Also, this means that PCs won't have to worry about the BBEG being rezz'd by his backer or a minion, the moment they look away.

Conversely, this'll make it that much more awesome when a villian they'd supposedly defeated early on, was brought back and had been working in the background for the entire time.

I'd even use for roleplaying purposes. Should the party raise the BBEG who could tell them where to find a powerful but hidden artifact? Or should they bring back the innocent victim they'd caused the accidental death of? They've only got one scroll...

CasESenSITItiVE
2009-10-01, 01:47 AM
if they don't have access to true res, one thing to consider is an encounter that makes it difficult to access thier allies bodies after the fact.

no part, no res

TelemontTanthul
2009-10-01, 01:47 AM
kill off a few characters to show them that they CAN die.

Worked for me.

Try picking someone who seems LEAST attached to his or her character.

Then, at the end of the encounter that the character dies in, TELL them that they CAN die, and WILL die if they are not careful, or just act ridiculously.

Sophismata
2009-10-01, 01:48 AM
System Shock.

TelemontTanthul
2009-10-01, 01:49 AM
Some monsters can chase after a wizard who teleports away to safety.

Anti-Magic fields are always good too.

Grumman
2009-10-01, 01:55 AM
My personal inclination is to make all raise dead, resurrection and effective do-over spells, only available on scrolls. Scrolls which can't be created. And of which only a finite number exist.
You would have to have a better in-universe justification for this, even if the PCs don't know. As is, it simply makes no sense.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-01, 01:56 AM
Make diamonds difficult to find, even for sale. This one is easy enough to justify, since it's not like every merchant happens to have endless diamonds laying around. This'll force them to watch their death rate.

Sure, they can always still plan for it, that's fine. But when they're thinking...we only have enough diamonds to rez one person right now, they'll be a wee bit cautious about burning that.

charl
2009-10-01, 01:57 AM
High power PCs are likely to eventually tick off someone or something with influence over the afterlife. Not that easy to res someone who's soul is being held hostage by an angy devil.

taltamir
2009-10-01, 02:01 AM
At higher levels things get more dangerous, many enemies have soul trapping capabilites, and some soul destroying (EX: demilich consume souls)

BooNL
2009-10-01, 02:02 AM
I like your idea of limiting the Raise spells on scrolls. I've done that before and it works out great. The only problem is 'freak' deaths, the ones you haven't prepared for like a kobold rogue one-shotting the fighter or something.
In cases like that it can get frustrating to make a new character.

For other instances, if the character has had a sufficiently heroic death and the player is happy with it, I just let them roll another character. Death is a natural part of adventuring after all.

Another thing you could think about is the material components of Raise spells, you could for example limit diamonds in your campaign. Making them as saught after as oil.

taltamir
2009-10-01, 02:03 AM
Another thing you could think about is the material components of Raise spells, you could for example limit diamonds in your campaign. Making them as saught after as oil.

There is also good justification for diamond limiting... everyone used up the good ones for resurrections already :)

Crafty Cultist
2009-10-01, 02:14 AM
you could put a limit on the amount of times a soul can handle being pulled back from the afterlife; each time a character is rezzed the find the return to life more straining and eventually they do not have the strength to return.

if each death puts them closer to the point of no return they will take it more serously, and if how many times a person can return is subjective rather than a set amout then they will be even more fearing of death(it will also allow you to explain why your influential NPCs aren't raised from the dead after their death)

Physics_Rook
2009-10-01, 02:29 AM
Some monsters can chase after a wizard who teleports away to safety.

Anti-Magic fields are always good too.

Very good ideas.

It does raise the question of what to do when it's either not practical or realistic (for D&D anyway) to have such a monster/effect on hand whenever I need to scare the PCs?


You would have to have a better in-universe justification for this, even if the PCs don't know. As is, it simply makes no sense.

Definitely agreed. Without any appropriate explanation, it would seem as little more than a frustrated GM ruling.

Rest assured though, I do have a plan. :smallsmile:
Though being my first thread, I don't won't to stray too far from the topic, by putting my campaign's background into a post.


Make diamonds difficult to find, even for sale. This one is easy enough to justify, since it's not like every merchant happens to have endless diamonds laying around. This'll force them to watch their death rate.

Sure, they can always still plan for it, that's fine. But when they're thinking...we only have enough diamonds to rez one person right now, they'll be a wee bit cautious about burning that.

I really like this idea.
This is much more in line with what I had planned originally.
The only reason I decided to take it further, was to completely cement the idea of mortality in my players.


I like your idea of limiting the Raise spells on scrolls. I've done that before and it works out great. The only problem is 'freak' deaths, the ones you haven't prepared for like a kobold rogue one-shotting the fighter or something.
In cases like that it can get frustrating to make a new character.


This is currently my biggest fear.
Part of the problem of making things more realistic, is of course freak accidents exactly like this. This is thread is partially to try and find ways to scare PCs without the issue of freak accidents completely destroying the effort they've put into their character.


you could put a limit on the amount of times a soul can handle being pulled back from the afterlife; each time a character is rezzed the find the return to life more straining and eventually they do not have the strength to return.

if each death puts them closer to the point of no return they will take it more serously, and if how many times a person can return is subjective rather than a set amout then they will be even more fearing of death(it will also allow you to explain why your influential NPCs aren't raised from the dead after their death)

This was another way I considered going. And in fact I might still implement it on top of everything else.
I thought of maybe making it a fort save or some such thing, but I decided that fate could still intervene inconveniently. And I do play dice with the universe. :smallbiggrin:

Instead I think I might institute an action point system. And make the number of times you can be raised dependent them, or boostable by spending them.

This would give a nice one-two punch. Not only make it hard for the PCs to raise themselves. But also make it not a sure thing even if they are capable.

On the plus side, it would give a reason why you aren't able to raise non-heroes, and also why the BBEG can't just be raised by his cronies over and over again.

Fishy
2009-10-01, 02:32 AM
Dolurrh is remote this year. You can still bring Bob back from the dead, you just have to go there and get him.

Physics_Rook
2009-10-01, 02:36 AM
Dolurrh is remote this year. You can still bring Bob back from the dead, you just have to go there and get him.

Man would that freak them out.
It's risky business enough just to go around heroing in your home plane.
Moving to a world where you've no idea what could happen?

OMG! Fall damage suddenly became 2^nd6, where n = 10/(every 10ft fallen)!!!

oxinabox
2009-10-01, 02:48 AM
I know a DM, who doesn't use Death, he uses Disjunction.

In one game i'm playing myself (we all are playing ourselves)
so i've only got one life, look after it.
I've only massively risked it once, but that was worth the risk. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7036357&postcount=40)
I'm the sort of person (In game, things have happened that have changed me in someways) who places some goals above the presevation of my life.
I've realised that each session i take on average 1 vow, to do something that i consider worth risking my life for, that will almost certainly end with my death.
1) rescue the Changeling who released me from Arcadia
2) Kill My Fetch, (I have my reasons and to me their all true)
3) kill My keeper
4) protect Amy Chainer

taltamir
2009-10-01, 03:07 AM
you could put a limit on the amount of times a soul can handle being pulled back from the afterlife; each time a character is rezzed the find the return to life more straining and eventually they do not have the strength to return.

if each death puts them closer to the point of no return they will take it more serously, and if how many times a person can return is subjective rather than a set amout then they will be even more fearing of death(it will also allow you to explain why your influential NPCs aren't raised from the dead after their death)

permanently lose 1 point of con each time you are ressed... unrecoverable..
Or for cool factor.. permantly lose 1 point of wis. House rule that a character at 0 wis is merely insane. And no longer controllable as a PC, instead becoming a BBEG. At around 5 wis they already begin to see warning signs and be whacky and moral clerics refuse to res them. A char with wis 0 that is ressed doesn't further lose any wis.

Grumman
2009-10-01, 03:38 AM
I know a DM, who doesn't use Death, he uses Disjunction.
That's because he's an *******.

Something I think people need to remember is that if you actually want the players to act like they're afraid of death, they need to have the opportunity to see it coming and get out of its way. Hitting them with disjunctions or cutting off their lines of retreat doesn't work, because by the time they know they're in danger, it's already too late. Hitting them with stuff by DM fiat doesn't work either, because the players know that the only thing that can save them from DM fiat is more DM fiat.

Friend Computer
2009-10-01, 03:40 AM
1st res: 1 negative levels, fort save or lose 1 con. DC=Level
2nd res: 2 negative levels, fort save or lose 1 con. DC=Level+1
3rd res: 2 negative levels, fort save or lose 2 con. DC=Level+2
4th res: 3 negative levels, fort save or lose 2 con. DC=Level+3
5th res: 3 negative levels, fort save or lose 3 con. DC=Level+4
6th res: 4 negative levels, fort save or lose 3 con. DC=Level+5
6th res: 4 negative levels, fort save or lose 4 con. DC=Level+6

/mean

SinsI
2009-10-01, 03:50 AM
Just ban True Resurrection. -1 level or -1 Con (at 1st level) is more than enough to scare players.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-01, 04:01 AM
Three ways:

1) Raise dead is rare - see above

2) raise dead is difficult. This because a beast of xvim ate the corpse (and so the soul) of the victim, demons played with the soul of the evil PC and the toy broke up, or simply the God of Death want something to relase the soul, you have to bargain with him..

The are useful advice in Heroes of Horror, I use them in my campaign. If a death PC means a dangerous quest in the underworld, well, PCs will take more care.

3) The adventure is fast. You have to save the princess NOW, if you delay 5 minutes, the princess is gone. Even if death is simply a temporary condition, the time spent to raise a dead PC, even 10 minutes, could matter.

pasko77
2009-10-01, 04:06 AM
There is also good justification for diamond limiting... everyone used up the good ones for resurrections already :)

In the same situation (too lazy to link), Darth Varsuuvius just said: "lets go to the elemental plane of earth and grab some diamonds", so i think it would not really work.

Just a thought.

ericgrau
2009-10-01, 04:08 AM
That's what level loss at rez is for, not to mention the gp cost in diamonds. If you think level loss sucks too much, don't worry the faster xp gains mean they catch up in 1-3 levels.

Later you can kidnap the body, trap the soul, etc.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-01, 04:09 AM
Elemental plane of earth /= free diamonds everywhere.

JellyPooga
2009-10-01, 04:13 AM
Judicious use of the Necrotic Cyst line of spells...when one of the adventuring party is suddenly consumed by a cyst lying dormant within their body (which then procedes to animate and attack the party), it should give the PCs pause for thought. When they try to ressurect their dead comrade and find it doesn't work, they might start getting worried. When they use True Res, Wish and Miracle all at the same time and find it still doesn't work because the very soul of their companion has been destroyed, then they will start to know fear...especially as they don't know which of them might be harbouring cysts of their own...

Having said that, I like the idea of an adventure to the afterlife to persuade a soul to return...very mythic.

oxinabox
2009-10-01, 05:54 AM
Death isn't something i feaqr for my chjaracters at all.
resurection is.
When they die, i get he fun of creating a new character.

How ever currently we are pack full os story line rewards (like templates with out LA, and free feats. it's kinda monte haul).
So i better not die or i will be way behind in power.

Luckly this build is built to survive:
THe DM wonted to test out some character he's consisdering playing in a differnet game (routed).
He told us that, if TPK happens then this never happened, if we win we all go up a lvl.
So everyone else is taking 40 damage from there hits and i'm takeing ... 7.
That was part luck, there attacks were against reflex - my best save.
and were part elect wich i'm imune and part cold, which i'm resist 5 against.
Everyone else dies quickly, i almost escaped, but they spell warped my 1 and only dimention door sp. ability.

When they focused on me they started doing Raw, untyped magical (so since i was from a spell my DR/cold iron didn't kick in)
ANd i started to get kicked down.

Entertainingly almost the whole party was like: So do we get to roll new characters?
ooh I get the try out my Gish.

Volkov
2009-10-01, 06:05 AM
Have them fight lots of devourers, eventually one will get lucky and steal his soul, then burn it out for spell like abilities.

Eldariel
2009-10-01, 06:09 AM
In a nutshell, the issue is "Roll a new character". That doesn't strike many players as a drawback; indeed, some players may intentionally get their character killed 'cause they're bored of it or whatever.

If you force them to continue their old character or toss something like a level loss or some ability score loss or some such for their new character, it'll work out better. Maybe force them to cumulatively take an extra Flaw for each new character without a feat gain; the replacement character has suffered traumas from the previous character in accordance to the law of Karma. Same soul, same punishment.

oxinabox
2009-10-01, 06:18 AM
Maybe force them to cumulatively take an extra Flaw for each new character without a feat gain; the replacement character has suffered traumas from the previous character in accordance to the law of Karma. Same soul, same punishment.

Can't be the same soul, (unless reincarnated before death, or even before birth)
A player plays a fresh young, lad just past hius comming of age serimony, then a grizelled war veteren

als o your punishing players for what was either a dm mistake (you should balance enoughter to be challanging but not deadly) or luck to the dice (Farmer criticals with a sythe, after you steal an apple from his tree (yes he spent a feat)

What are you punishing the character for? dying?

Eldariel
2009-10-01, 06:26 AM
What are you punishing the character for? dying?

The problem is that death really doesn't have any consequences if you get to reroll. Some penalty for the new character means there's always a drawback to dying even if the party doesn't bother to resurrect you.

And DM mistake? By far the most common reason for death in my experience is Player Stupidity. Fighting when you shoulda ran, running alone ahead in the dungeon, deciding to try and raid the King's treasury (or any other of the billion "get rich fast"-plans), etc.


But ultimately the reason of the death doesn't matter; bottomline is that if death is no hinderance, it may cause many a player to grow less attached to their characters and not really care for death. As such, even rerolling should have its penalties IMHO.

JellyPooga
2009-10-01, 06:30 AM
In one campaign I played in, our DM insisted that if we re-rolled characters they came in at whatever level our original character would have come back as if Rez'd (i.e. you still lost a level).

oxinabox
2009-10-01, 06:42 AM
And DM mistake? By far the most common reason for death in my experience is Player Stupidity. Fighting when you shoulda ran, running alone ahead in the dungeon, deciding to try and raid the King's treasury (or any other of the billion "get rich fast"-plans), etc.
A very good point, i concead that one too you

Volkov
2009-10-01, 06:53 AM
One player of mine tried to fight Murlynd, he was filled with bullet holes before you could say "Swiss cheese."

Thunder Hammer
2009-10-01, 07:34 AM
Interesting thread. On the old WotC Forums, some programmer actually simulated an entire D&D world (Ableit with some assumptions, but not too restrictive) and found: The D&D world only works as a D&D world IF there is no easy ressurection. I'm totally banning these spells from my games, except as plot devices in the form of scrolls from the Gods. (Or something.)

Heliomance
2009-10-01, 07:44 AM
I think my favourite is probably the "Sure, you can bring Bob back from the dead. You just have to go and get him" method. Invading the underworld is always going to be epic.

Of course, you'd have to work out a way to justify it always being a challenge no matter what level they're at.

Shpadoinkle
2009-10-01, 07:48 AM
Bump Raise Dead and Resurrection by two spell levels each. True Ressurrection does not exist except in extraordinary circumstances (i.e. a deity or archfiend or something similarly powerful intervenes directly), and then only lasts until a given task is completed.

Limiting the number of times a character can be raised from the dead is also a good option, but unless a PC is INCREDIBLY death-prone or has a low Consitution, making this the same as his Constitution score probably isn't going to really matter. Making it one third his Con score (rounded down) will probably get them to think more carefully about whether it's REALLY worth trying to do whatever suicidal thing they're considering that's a part of everyday life for PCs.

Asheram
2009-10-01, 08:02 AM
How about something like making ressurection a bit more difficult... Say.. a roll of a d20.
2-10; The spell fizzles and your diamonds are wasted
11-20; The ressurection works.
1; The character is still dead, but walks anyhow. Turned into an undead of DM's chosing.

Hurt an adventurer where he'll be sure to feel it. In the wallet.

jokey665
2009-10-01, 08:07 AM
How about something like making ressurection a bit more difficult... Say.. a roll of a d20.
2-10; The spell fizzles and your diamonds are wasted
11-20; The ressurection works.
1; The character is still dead, but walks anyhow. Turned into an undead of DM's chosing.

Hurt an adventurer where he'll be sure to feel it. In the wallet.

I like this one a lot, actually. I think I'd make a 20 rez you without the level loss, though. If you have something specific for a 1 you gotta have something for a 20.

I also really like the "ressurection magic only on scrolls" from the first post.

Fishy
2009-10-01, 08:16 AM
I think my favourite is probably the "Sure, you can bring Bob back from the dead. You just have to go and get him" method. Invading the underworld is always going to be epic.

Of course, you'd have to work out a way to justify it always being a challenge no matter what level they're at.

Well, first you need a portal to the underworld, which are generally going to be rather rare, and either extremely well guarded or lost to the mists of time. Then, you have to go there, drudge through the timeless gray plains- with impeded magic and heavy gravity planar traits- and somehow track down Bob's shade. Then you have to either convince Bob's weary soul to come back with you, or batter him into submission and drag him back to the portal. Then, you have to either convince the Marut at the door to let you go, or batter him into submission and run away.

So... Yeah. I'm not entirely sure whether I'd want to do that or just roll up a new character. Would be awesome to do once, I think.

EDIT: Of course, this is when Dolurrh is remote. When it's coterminous, Raise Dead and the like work too well, and you get this table:
{table]d%|Result
01–50|Spell functions normally.
51–80|1d4 ghosts (CR = raised character’s level) appear near the raised character.
81–90|As above, but the wrong spirit claims the risen body and the intended spirit returns as a ghost.
91–99|The spell functions normally, but a nalfeshnee possesses the raised character.
100|The spell does not function; instead, a nalfeshnee animates the body.[/table]

Zaq
2009-10-01, 08:21 AM
The problem with the whole "make rezzing really hard" paradigm (be it "go to Hell and get them back," "you can only get the diamonds through a quest," or whatever) is that there's a good chance that it'll make the player need to sit out for a while. In-character, it might make sense that Kenkor's not going to be around for a bit (because he's DEAD, after all), but your friend Joe, who's PLAYING Kenkor, is spending his precious free time with you hoping to roll some dice and/or get his RP on. Is it fair to Joe to tell him "sorry man, Kenkor bit it, but we'll have you back in a week or two?"

If you want to kill a character (or if a character gets killed... PC stupidity happens without GM vindictiveness, after all), you better make sure that the player has something to do. If Joe's just supposed to sit around sullenly thumbing through the PHB and/or listening to all the cool things his friends are doing without him in order to promote "verisimilitude" or something, well, I wouldn't blame Joe for getting a bit pissed. Most of us only get a couple hours a week to game, and we'd like to spend it gaming, rather than being punished for something that happened in-game. You need to at the very least give Joe a backup character while Kenkor's being rescued from the clutches of the bone devils. Realistic or not, D&D is still a game, and being told that you don't get to play this week just isn't a lot of fun.

Now, you don't have to have a Kenkor-replacing NPC poof in as soon as Kenkor hits -10. You could share some of your GM notes with Joe and let him run some of the monsters or a villain, as long as Joe's mature enough to deal with knowing what the villains can do. Just as long as Joe has something to do other than seeing how big his d6 pyramid can become.

Fishy
2009-10-01, 08:35 AM
I agree fully, and the more I think about it, the more I prefer the idea of getting a demon and/or 1d4 ghosts- Joe gets back in the game, and furthermore, immediately has to deal with an adventure (tm).

On the other hand, it's traditional that visitors to the underworld get a local guide: Aeneas had Sibyl, Dante had Virgil, and Kenkor's partymates can have an NPC played by Joe. Maybe?

Heliomance
2009-10-01, 08:46 AM
Well, first you need a portal to the underworld, which are generally going to be rather rare, and either extremely well guarded or lost to the mists of time. Then, you have to go there, drudge through the timeless gray plains- with impeded magic and heavy gravity planar traits- and somehow track down Bob's shade. Then you have to either convince Bob's weary soul to come back with you, or batter him into submission and drag him back to the portal. Then, you have to either convince the Marut at the door to let you go, or batter him into submission and run away.

So... Yeah. I'm not entirely sure whether I'd want to do that or just roll up a new character. Would be awesome to do once, I think.

EDIT: Of course, this is when Dolurrh is remote. When it's coterminous, Raise Dead and the like work too well, and you get this table:
{table]d%|Result
01–50|Spell functions normally.
51–80|1d4 ghosts (CR = raised character’s level) appear near the raised character.
81–90|As above, but the wrong spirit claims the risen body and the intended spirit returns as a ghost.
91–99|The spell functions normally, but a nalfeshnee possesses the raised character.
100|The spell does not function; instead, a nalfeshnee animates the body.[/table]

That's hilarious

Gnaeus
2009-10-01, 08:59 AM
permanently lose 1 point of con each time you are ressed... unrecoverable..
Or for cool factor.. permantly lose 1 point of wis. House rule that a character at 0 wis is merely insane. And no longer controllable as a PC, instead becoming a BBEG. At around 5 wis they already begin to see warning signs and be whacky and moral clerics refuse to res them. A char with wis 0 that is ressed doesn't further lose any wis.

I have tried something like this. I let them make saves, without benefit of spells or items, and a DC based on their level, so there is always a real chance of failure. Fort save or permanent Con loss. Will save or permanent Cha loss or a permanent derangement.

It worked pretty well, but here's the problem I had.

Barring TPKs, near TPKs and random bad luck on saves, the same players tend to die more often than others. The melee fighter, for example, dies more than the stand in the back wizard. So you wind up with characters who are often weaker by default (Tanks are weaker than casters all else being equal) further weakened by level loss (level 9 casters and level 7 fighters, how fair is that?). Then you slap a con penalty on them and they die even more often, making them lower level with bigger penalties, so they die more often...

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-01, 09:03 AM
The problem with the whole "make rezzing really hard" paradigm (be it "go to Hell and get them back," "you can only get the diamonds through a quest," or whatever) is that there's a good chance that it'll make the player need to sit out for a while. In-character, it might make sense that Kenkor's not going to be around for a bit (because he's DEAD, after all), but your friend Joe, who's PLAYING Kenkor, is spending his precious free time with you hoping to roll some dice and/or get his RP on. Is it fair to Joe to tell him "sorry man, Kenkor bit it, but we'll have you back in a week or two?"


You raise a good point but can be circumvented. As an example, we I killed one of my players, and Elf Ranger//Beguiler.

In the same moment his companion were trying to res him through a quest, we had combat and RPG in the afterlife (involving a Demon, A devil and an Eladrin).

Of course, i changed the afterlife a little bit: he wasn't a petitioner, yet, (because, in my world, he didn't crossed Oceanus/Styx).

oxinabox
2009-10-01, 09:08 AM
I think my favourite is probably the "Sure, you can bring Bob back from the dead. You just have to go and get him" method. Invading the underworld is always going to be epic.

After the first 5 or 6 times, the guardians of the underworld learn to have bob's soul on hand; so when you come a knocking, they can just hand him over.
It's alot easier for them that way - the other option is that you cut your way though them and take Bob's soul back anyway.

Fishy
2009-10-01, 09:13 AM
Either that, or they know that when Bob's soul shows up, it means they need to run and grab every single Inevitable they can spare and post guard around the portal.

minchazo
2009-10-01, 09:14 AM
What about making the clerics/gods not *atomatically* cast the spells? I mean, you may have to convince the Cleric and/or gods to cast the spell.

Cleric of Pelor: You mean he tried to single handedly take on 12 ogres?

Party: Yup, just rez him and we'll be going.

Cleric of Pelor: I'm not going to 'rez' him, he'll just try something stupid again! I'm going to use my spells on people who will respect the power of Pelor, not abuse it!

Party: Um... Please?

Talya
2009-10-01, 09:15 AM
The problem is that death really doesn't have any consequences if you get to reroll. Some penalty for the new character means there's always a drawback to dying even if the party doesn't bother to resurrect you.

And DM mistake? By far the most common reason for death in my experience is Player Stupidity. Fighting when you shoulda ran, running alone ahead in the dungeon, deciding to try and raid the King's treasury (or any other of the billion "get rich fast"-plans), etc.


But ultimately the reason of the death doesn't matter; bottomline is that if death is no hinderance, it may cause many a player to grow less attached to their characters and not really care for death. As such, even rerolling should have its penalties IMHO.

And so after my first death I stop playing with this group and go find another group to play with that doesn't do that...the game's supposed to be fun for everyone involved. If you're having fun, why spoil it?

There's an example on the MMO front. In Everquest (which I played from 1999 through 2003), there was a horrific xp penalty for death, in addition to time spent getting back to retrieve your belongings. If you secured a resurrection, you could get about 90-95% of that back, but levelling was so slow that even that was a huge penalty. And frankly, it just wasn't fun.

In comparison, WoW has virtually no penalty for death (some minor equipment repair bills that only really become noticeable when you're exploring a new raid instance and die several times in an evening). This is far more fun. Sometimes your players don't want to treat the game so seriously. Penalties of that kind are generally not fun, which is the key here.

Shinizak
2009-10-01, 09:56 AM
Interesting thread. On the old WotC Forums, some programmer actually simulated an entire D&D world (Ableit with some assumptions, but not too restrictive) and found: The D&D world only works as a D&D world IF there is no easy ressurection. I'm totally banning these spells from my games, except as plot devices in the form of scrolls from the Gods. (Or something.)

Dude, link?

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-01, 10:19 AM
And so after my first death I stop playing with this group and go find another group to play with that doesn't do that...the game's supposed to be fun for everyone involved. If you're having fun, why spoil it?

There's an example on the MMO front. In Everquest (which I played from 1999 through 2003), there was a horrific xp penalty for death, in addition to time spent getting back to retrieve your belongings. If you secured a resurrection, you could get about 90-95% of that back, but levelling was so slow that even that was a huge penalty. And frankly, it just wasn't fun.

In comparison, WoW has virtually no penalty for death (some minor equipment repair bills that only really become noticeable when you're exploring a new raid instance and die several times in an evening). This is far more fun. Sometimes your players don't want to treat the game so seriously. Penalties of that kind are generally not fun, which is the key here.

On the other hand, I could have fun in my immersion in a game if death in such game has some meaning.. see, in a videogame the choice of Wow designers makes sense, (expecially in a PvP server, or seeing a raid boss).

An RPG could be felt in a different way. If I completely remove the meaning of death in a RPG, I could ruin immersion to other players. And act like a jerk.

There's not a single way to see this: should be IMHO accorded DM-Players at the start of the campaign (silly campaign vs gritty are extremes I guess).

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-01, 10:35 AM
Does it really matter? Whether or not you can come back, you failed. If you can retry the mission, it doesn't negate your past failure. A PC death, in my experience, almost universally results in a time-sensitive matter (i.e. doomsday) being fulfilled [unless the party can go on without me]; or the target getting away. This applies even when I have a Contingent True Resurrection set up - my death/defeat gives the opponents crucial tempo. There are things my character fears losing more than his life, and consequently death is something to be feared.

It's a matter of the people, I guess. If things are taken seriously, no matter what the status of resurrection, things will be serious. Easy resurrection makes things easier for my games while not detracting too much.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-01, 10:38 AM
Dude, link?

I second this. I would *love* to see a simulation of an entire D&D world.

Thunder Hammer
2009-10-01, 10:45 AM
Dude, link?

If you can make the WotC forums work on my computer (pimped out gaming computer I bought last year) or my work computer(which is ok), I'll happily dig it up. I have no clue why the WotC forums have just DIED for me.

Kallisti
2009-10-01, 10:59 AM
You have to put some sort of a price on resurrection. Maybe to get it, you need to make a deal with something big and nasty. The kind of thing you don't want to owe favors to. Hades' PM box is always open...

One rule I used once was stolen from Babylon Five: The spell doesn't pull your soul back to your body so much as infuse your body with life energy and "jump-start" you. But the spell can only channel so much energy. 1d% of your total maximum age just...went. Every time you get ressed, you get just a little--or maybe a lot, you can't know--closer to...stopping.

Needless to say, the secret rolls scared the crap out of my players, especially once I informed them that ageless creatures like Elans and Warforged can't be resurrected.

The White Knight
2009-10-01, 11:26 AM
I do personally like the idea of restricting resurrection to single-use items; but rather than making them scrolls that nobody knows how to scribe, I'd make them unique items tied to individual deities ("Illmater's Mercy", "Sune's Tears", etc.), and I'd make them craftable only by epic clerics using Miracle (of the variety with the XP component) as the base. This makes them quite rare, but not totally unrenewable.

Another idea in line with what has already been mentioned would be to have some magic item as a soul receptacle, and go plane-hopping (is it the Astral or the Ethereal a soul travels through on its way to the far planes? I always mix this up) to track down the subject's soul and bring it back to the Material with you before it can complete its journey to its final resting place. Make this an additional material component to Raise Dead/Resurrection (no True Resurrection -- we still want the threat of level loss here). Once the soul reaches its home on the alignment/deity appropriate far plane, you either have to make a bargain with the keepers or take it back by force.

Glass Mouse
2009-10-01, 12:01 PM
What about making the clerics/gods not *atomatically* cast the spells? I mean, you may have to convince the Cleric and/or gods to cast the spell.

Cleric of Pelor: You mean he tried to single handedly take on 12 ogres?

Party: Yup, just rez him and we'll be going.

Cleric of Pelor: I'm not going to 'rez' him, he'll just try something stupid again! I'm going to use my spells on people who will respect the power of Pelor, not abuse it!

Party: Um... Please?

This, of course, becomes impossible once the PCs start to build a reputation - unless you want to make every NPC retarded. "Oh, you saved the king... and my village... by holding off the attacking dragons for a week, so we could all flee? Hmm... Nah, I still don't feel like rezzing. He shoulda planned for that Ogre double crit."

But at lower levels... Good idea!

Glass Mouse
2009-10-01, 01:52 PM
Alternative idea:

Kill the cleric!

:smallamused:

Eldariel
2009-10-01, 02:28 PM
And so after my first death I stop playing with this group and go find another group to play with that doesn't do that...the game's supposed to be fun for everyone involved. If you're having fun, why spoil it?

IMHO a game is not fun if players don't care for their characters. I've found that with many players, cheap death makes the characters "throw-away ware" and lessens their ability to actually get in character and care for their characters' lives and well-being, and make choices as the characters, with their own mortality in mind, would.

That said, I use the "flaws"-version of above. I don't like XP penalties, but I find a bunch of homebrew flaws acts as a nice discouragement for dying while still not being crippling. Principal solution to death should always be attempts at Resurrection, IMHO, unless the player really wants to switch his character (which I'll of course allow; I've just had a player switch character 3 time over 3 sessions which gets kinda tedious for the inter-party dynamics and other players), in which case I prefer NPCification of the old one and introduction of the new character naturally, rather than as a replacement for a dead character.


Fun is the point, but fun means so many things... For me, a good roleplaying experience can be more rewarding than any number of slain monsters, saved princesses and kingdom pieces, and in my experience, fear of death serves to make roleplaying more immersive and to generate more feelings. This is not for all players, of course, but the "weaker" roleplayers with more difficulty getting into character seem to find it helpful (or rather, lacking of the fear of death to be detrimental).

Tyndmyr
2009-10-01, 02:57 PM
In one campaign I played in, our DM insisted that if we re-rolled characters they came in at whatever level our original character would have come back as if Rez'd (i.e. you still lost a level).

My group does something possibly worse. New characters are made one level lower than the lowest living party member. Xp half way between current level and next level.

So, rerolling isn't a big issue if you happened to be the lowest party member, but if you were the highest, the penalty can actually be multiple levels. It has the advantage of helping to bunch players up if they get seperated in xp, and keeps from penalizing people who die repeatedly too much for rerolling. After all, if your character keeps biting the dirt, you may want to try something else after a bit.

Physics_Rook
2009-10-01, 10:45 PM
I do personally like the idea of restricting resurrection to single-use items; but rather than making them scrolls that nobody knows how to scribe, I'd make them unique items tied to individual deities ("Illmater's Mercy", "Sune's Tears", etc.), and I'd make them craftable only by epic clerics using Miracle (of the variety with the XP component) as the base. This makes them quite rare, but not totally unrenewable.


One of the reasons I wanted to make it impossible (rather than merely difficult/improbably) to create resurrection spell scrolls, was to to really drive home just how important it was to not waste the life you've got.

That way it'd be like water in the desert. If you use it all up, you're up the creek without a paddle (proverbial or otherwise).

I'm not completely averse to the creation of more scrolls, I just don't want to be part of the game system. I'd rather have be purely through roleplaying and story progression. So there's no set way to guarantee that you could have more.


IMHO a game is not fun if players don't care for their characters. I've found that with many players, cheap death makes the characters "throw-away ware" and lessens their ability to actually get in character and care for their characters' lives and well-being, and make choices as the characters, with their own mortality in mind, would.


This is exactly what I'm trying to fix in my game (or rather, before the start of my next game).
I don't want my players to feel like death is "cheap" as you have so succinctly put it.

But at the same time, I don't want the players to feel like I'm trying to enforce a punishment, rather that I'm trying to encourage more in the way of planning and roleplaying.

Granted of course, that death is going to carry a punishment. But I don't won't it to be the focus. I'd rather reward a player for smartly avoiding death, than to punish them for foolishly walking into it.

In short, I'd like to have my cake and eat it too. :smallbiggrin:

Naturally, a great deal of this lies with the players, rather than me. But I'm still open to the idea of trying to create a world in which the players' characters are encouraged by thinking and planning intelligently.


One rule I used once was stolen from Babylon Five: The spell doesn't pull your soul back to your body so much as infuse your body with life energy and "jump-start" you. But the spell can only channel so much energy. 1d% of your total maximum age just...went. Every time you get ressed, you get just a little--or maybe a lot, you can't know--closer to...stopping.

Needless to say, the secret rolls scared the crap out of my players, especially once I informed them that ageless creatures like Elans and Warforged can't be resurrected.

Another B5 fan? That is so cool! :smallsmile:
I never thought of making resurrection spells lower the maximum lifespan limit.
It's a cool idea, and in fact is probably better and simpler than the rather convoluted mess I was set on creating.

In fact, were you to rule that your max lifespan decreases with your level each time you're raised, you'd really make an impression on them.

In the early levels, when the players are still getting there footing, and freak accidents (as opposed to poor planning) are more likely to wipe out a party, there isn't as much to worry about.

Later on though, when the players are higher level, they'll do more to try and keep themselves alive, rather than bust loose with their nukes at the first sign of trouble.

I might further rule that if a resurrection would put a player's lifespan beneath their age (e.g. 10th level character dies at age 20 with a max lifespan of 25), they are still raised, but are no longer able to be raised, and now have only one year left to live.

I think this strikes a nice balance of letting novices have a little more breathing room, but giving more experienced roleplayers a better challenge.

taltamir
2009-10-01, 11:22 PM
In the same situation (too lazy to link), Darth Varsuuvius just said: "lets go to the elemental plane of earth and grab some diamonds", so i think it would not really work.

Just a thought.

the elemental plane of earth does not have diamonds... problem solved.

charl
2009-10-01, 11:25 PM
the elemental plane of earth does not have diamonds... problem solved.

Yes it does. Especially in the areas close to the paraelemental plane of mineral.

arguskos
2009-10-01, 11:30 PM
Yes it does. Especially in the areas close to the paraelemental plane of mineral.
And the RAW wins again! Yay for sanity at times kinda maybe ish!

charl
2009-10-01, 11:34 PM
And the RAW wins again! Yay for sanity at times kinda maybe ish!

Well, going to an elemental plane in order to gather magical components is a pretty drastic thing to do, and it would probably be just as easy if not easier in some ways to go to the relevant outer plane and liberate the dead party member from the afterlife.

taltamir
2009-10-01, 11:36 PM
this thread is specifically about how to alter the raw with houserules to make players fear death... considering the suggestions like "bump it up in levels" "ban the spells" and so on, I would say "plane of earth does not contain infinite diamonds", or "contains diamonds unsuitable for resurrection" breaks the raw the least out of the suggestions given here thus far.


And so after my first death I stop playing with this group and go find another group to play with that doesn't do that...the game's supposed to be fun for everyone involved. If you're having fun, why spoil it?

There's an example on the MMO front. In Everquest (which I played from 1999 through 2003), there was a horrific xp penalty for death, in addition to time spent getting back to retrieve your belongings. If you secured a resurrection, you could get about 90-95% of that back, but levelling was so slow that even that was a huge penalty. And frankly, it just wasn't fun.

In comparison, WoW has virtually no penalty for death (some minor equipment repair bills that only really become noticeable when you're exploring a new raid instance and die several times in an evening). This is far more fun. Sometimes your players don't want to treat the game so seriously. Penalties of that kind are generally not fun, which is the key here.

this is why i stopped playing city of heroes... i got a crushing XP debt as a blaster after their major nerf.... i later tried again as a mastermind and that was a cakewalk...

Yea, I have to rethink my suggestions... they will not be fun and will get people to walk away from gaming group.

arguskos
2009-10-01, 11:36 PM
Well, going to an elemental plane in order to gather magical components is a pretty drastic thing to do, and it would probably be just as easy if not easier in some ways to go to the relevant outer plane and liberate the dead party member from the afterlife.
Yes, I know. I just was making a snide comment on the state of the RAW in 3.5 and its insanity.

As for the actual topic at hand, I tend to roll with the "trip to the underworld" and "bargain with a powerful outsider" methods of resurrection.

gdiddy
2009-10-01, 11:36 PM
It's always been an issue for me.
PC have always deaths seemed like little more the inconvenient speed bumps.


How I do it in my game:

No Raise Dead. No Resurrection. No Reincarnation. No Wish. No Miracle. If you drop to -10 hp, you can either be made into various types of undead, or stay dead.

Sacrificing their spouse or child can bring them back for a year and a day, but at half stats, with no character levels.

Players become really really really smart very fast. Heroic antics certainly mean more, for one thing.

Kylarra
2009-10-01, 11:39 PM
How I do it in my game:

No Raise Dead. No Resurrection. No Reincarnation. No Wish. No Miracle. If you drop to -10 hp, you can either be made into various types of undead, or stay dead.

Sacrificing their spouse or child can bring them back for a year and a day, but at half stats, with no character levels.

Players become really really really smart very fast. Heroic antics certainly mean more, for one thing.So there's lots of rerolls basically.

taltamir
2009-10-01, 11:40 PM
Yes, I know. I just was making a snide comment on the state of the RAW in 3.5 and its insanity.

As for the actual topic at hand, I tend to roll with the "trip to the underworld" and "bargain with a powerful outsider" methods of resurrection.

i rolled a 1 on that detect motive.

charl
2009-10-01, 11:49 PM
this thread is specifically about how to alter the raw with houserules to make players fear death... considering the suggestions like "bump it up in levels" "ban the spells" and so on, I would say "plane of earth does not contain infinite diamonds", or "contains diamonds unsuitable for resurrection" breaks the raw the least out of the suggestions given here thus far.

Yes, of course. Except you don't really need to make those houserules (about the plane of earth) in the first place. For one thing all the inner planes are technically supposed to be infinite while at the same time physically bordering each other (somehow). So ok, you can go to the elemental plane of earth or whatever, but good luck finding the diamonds you need once there. And then when you do find it you'll have to do something about the locals and possibly other planewalkers who want all the diamonds for themselves.

I would suggest increasing the costs of resurrection with the level of a character. How to spin that in the fluff I don't know, but let's say you put a price of 1000 gp in diamonds per HD of the target or something like that (you'd probably want it to scale higher for really high levels) and your players might think twice about doing something stupid since having to res someone could easily mean losing all the wealth the party gathered during the adventure.

Oh, and the diamonds? They have to be natural. No making of transmuting them with magic. Hel*, you could even decide that they have to be natural diamonds from the prime material that also have to be transparent. That way you get past the planewalking and educated players who might insist on raiding the alleys behind diamond mines for "worthless" opaque diamonds that medieval people would just discard as trash.

*Norse underworld.

gdiddy
2009-10-01, 11:56 PM
So there's lots of rerolls basically.

No, players just don't go around doing ridiculous things. And when I throw stuff at them at their CR, they get frosty. It makes for some of the most intense combat. It's really suspenseful, especially when the bad guys crit. Some great "Noooooooooo!" moments, of course.

Only one death in the past six months, and the player wanted it to happen.

So no. The characters live a long time, usually. When they die, it has meaning, though. However, they can't be lazy with their playing and I can't be a lazy DM, its not for everyone.

pasko77
2009-10-02, 02:42 AM
the elemental plane of earth does not have diamonds... problem solved.

Of course.
Polimorph any object.
Wish.
Whatever comes to my mind in the next 30 seconds... :)
what I was meaning is that usually at high levels the lack of components is a nuisance.
You can rule everything not being able to gather spell components... but... as others pointed out, it becomes house-rule heavy, and pretty forced.

At this point I would suggest other rulesets (Exalted, WHFRP) without easy resurrection. Me, I am particularly happy with WHFRP.

Bye, Pasko

gdiddy
2009-10-02, 02:54 AM
WHFRP.


If I could get players off D20, maybe.

Often folks are really set in their ways, though.

They'd rather play in a 3.5 game with a WHFRP tone than make the full plunge.
Not to mention costs, which are a barrier.

pasko77
2009-10-02, 03:54 AM
If I could get players off D20, maybe.

Often folks are really set in their ways, though.

They'd rather play in a 3.5 game with a WHFRP tone than make the full plunge.
Not to mention costs, which are a barrier.

You are right. Any system switch may be heavy to handle for the two reasons you stated.
Let's see. What power level are you bound to?
If you can manage an entire campaign at levels 1-8, you're golden.
Of course this is not the case, or you would not have had the rez-problem in the first instance.
Maybe you can reintroduce a rule from second edition: each rez has a 1% cumulative to fail (forever, soul won't come back, thanks anyway).
So when a PC already died 7 or 8 times... they will be more nervous when rolling this d100...

Hope it helps.

Physics_Rook
2009-10-02, 03:18 PM
I can't believe I completely failed my grammar check when writing the title to this thread (what's that PC doing possessing that fear, and then the death?).

Moving on though...


You are right. Any system switch may be heavy to handle for the two reasons you stated.
Let's see. What power level are you bound to?
If you can manage an entire campaign at levels 1-8, you're golden.
Of course this is not the case, or you would not have had the rez-problem in the first instance.
Maybe you can reintroduce a rule from second edition: each rez has a 1% cumulative to fail (forever, soul won't come back, thanks anyway).
So when a PC already died 7 or 8 times... they will be more nervous when rolling this d100...

Hope it helps.

Indeed, every post has helped, and yours is no exception.
Many a time was it, that I felt switching to another system might be for the best. But as gdiddy hath said, "Forsoothe, if thy could'st relinquish thine players from the D20, then maybe".

Yes, it turns out that my players are fairly set in their ways. And really enjoy playing 3.5. Partly why I've been losin' hair over this is because I don't want to change the parts that they like too much. :smallfrown:

I know any change to the rez system (for which is assumed that players usually have free access to) is still a major change to both the system and the feel of the game.

But I think that it would still be a change for the better.

I haven't started the game yet. I wanted to hammer out a few last important rules first. And I really don't want to have to handle a PC death without having established a precedent for it already, at the start of the game.

I do plan on running it until they tire (so they start at level 1, but from there the sky's the limit).

Lately, I different way of looking at this was brought to my attention.
It was suggested that I might view this as an economic situation for the players. I'm not talking about money, at least not specifically.

I am talking about the cost/benefit analysis that the players go through every time they try to decide on an action. Do the benefits of action x outweigh the costs?

Here's an interesting way to raise the cost for players.
When a character is rezzed, they come back to life with the minimum amount of XP for the level they died at. But for all intents (HD, class features, skills, everything) they are treated as though they are one level lower. As soon as they acquire enough XP to gain a level, then their imposed negative level is lifted.

EX:
Jimgorr is level 10. Jimgorr dies in battle.
Jimgorr is rezzed and now has the minimum XP for a level 10 character.
Jimgorr also is treated as though he were level 9 now.
When Jimgorr gains enough XP to become level 11, his negative level disappears and he is now treated as though he were level 11.

This effectively penalizes a player, by not letting them play the level they died at.
This is harsh, but we did want to raise the cost of dying until the players no longer thought is was worth the risk.

FatR
2009-10-02, 03:32 PM
Removing easy resurrection is impossible, unless the GM bans appropriate spells outright or stealth-nerfs them through some bullsh|t reasoning or another until they are effectively banned. More importantly it should not be removed, because the game is built and balanced on the assumption that death is totally a minor speedbump at high levels. Assuming the presence of actual challenges (as opposed to outcomes being ultimately decided by plot railroad direction/GM fiat/fudging), the most that can be done without turning a campaign into a meatgrinder, where smart players prepare replacement characters before each session, is reducing the period for which the subject can stay dead from days/years to hours.

FatR
2009-10-02, 03:47 PM
{Scrubbed}

SinsI
2009-10-02, 03:47 PM
You can always use major enemies that do a mandatory Soul Bind after each kill, or maybe even make some anti-res zones that bring all souls back to their master(necromancer, I presume) - an area-wide Soul Binding trap.
This makes resurrection easily available during any random encounter (so a kobold rogue one-shotting the fighter is not a problem), but anything really reckless on the player's part forces the whole party to do some serious side adventuring to rescue the captive soul. The best thing is, you don't even have to change anything - all the core mechanics work as advertised!

FatR
2009-10-02, 03:57 PM
If the enemy has time and ability to Soul Bind, the party is probably TPKed already, so who cares. And non-standard uses of traps open the way to Tippyland.

Moreover, Soul Bind is 9-th level spell, while the ability to raise slain companions becomes mandatory before you hit two-digit levels. Yes, even if all SoDs are banned outright - you all too often are one full attack away from death.

Sholos
2009-10-02, 04:15 PM
Man would that freak them out.
It's risky business enough just to go around heroing in your home plane.
Moving to a world where you've no idea what could happen?

OMG! Fall damage suddenly became 2^nd6, where n = 10/(every 10ft fallen)!!!

Wait, the further you fall the less you get hurt? How does that make sense?

SinsI
2009-10-02, 04:34 PM
If the enemy has time and ability to Soul Bind, the party is probably TPKed already, so who cares. And non-standard uses of traps open the way to Tippyland.

Moreover, Soul Bind is 9-th level spell, while the ability to raise slain companions becomes mandatory before you hit two-digit levels. Yes, even if all SoDs are banned outright - you all too often are one full attack away from death.
OP's problem with revolving-door-afterlife is that True Resurrection makes it too cheap for players to raise their dead - and that one is also a 9th level spell, so another 9th level spell is a sufficient solution.

Physics_Rook
2009-10-02, 06:21 PM
Wait, the further you fall the less you get hurt? How does that make sense?

My bad, sorry.

That should have the 10ft over the base 10.
A little more like this.
2^nd6, where n = (every 10ft fallen)/10

Resulting in damage as such:
10ft = 2d6
20ft = 4d6
30ft = 8d6
40ft = 16d6
and so on...

I'll probably make another thread about making PCs fear their environment again (no more jumping into pools of lava for them :smallbiggrin:).


{...} More importantly it should not be removed, because the game is built and balanced on the assumption that death is totally a minor speedbump at high levels. {...}

This is something that I've had to give a lot of time and attention to.
As it was mentioned in an earlier thread, WotC doesn't know how to play their own game. Which makes it doubly difficult to figure out what would be reasonable in terms of changing the players' access to rez spells.

My guesses as to how WotC balances their system are only guesses, and are (naturally) not infallible. So I've been casting around to try and find ideas that people think are reasonable without game breaking.


You can always use major enemies that do a mandatory Soul Bind after each kill, or maybe even make some anti-res zones that bring all souls back to their master(necromancer, I presume) - an area-wide Soul Binding trap.

Using the core mechanics without having to change anything would be very nice. But as FatR mentioned, if the enemy is planning on so thoroughly crushing them as to completely remove their possibility of resurrection, the players (who aren't used to facing real death) are going to be not only in over their heads, but also in unfamiliar waters to boot.

TelemontTanthul
2009-10-03, 01:20 AM
As a word of somewhat... strange advice... to the maker of this thread.

If you ever find that your players have been bending rules, or have been making characters that optimize toward the situations that you provide them with.

Improvise.

Have druids drop whales on them, or have wizards grapple them at the tops of buildings and jump off with them, only to have the wizard save himself with a teleport at the end.

Be creative, I think that is the main issue with your PC's not being afraid of dying, they think they have you all figured out.

Now you must show them that you can outsmart them.

Physics_Rook
2009-10-03, 04:20 AM
As a word of somewhat... strange advice... to the maker of this thread.

If you ever find that your players have been bending rules, or have been making characters that optimize toward the situations that you provide them with.

Improvise.

Have druids drop whales on them, or have wizards grapple them at the tops of buildings and jump off with them, only to have the wizard save himself with a teleport at the end.

Be creative, I think that is the main issue with your PC's not being afraid of dying, they think they have you all figured out.

Now you must show them that you can outsmart them.

I find that to be some very good advice. :smallsmile:

I'm not worried at all about my players bending/fudging/misremembering rules. They are all very up front, straight shooting, and in general honest people, so no worries on that front.

They do optimize to an extent. They're not interested in having defunct characters by epic levels, but they're also not really shooting for godhood. If it were only a question of optimization though, I think I might do well enough on my own for them.

But unfortunately for me, all my players are very clever people. I've had on several occasions born first hand witness to the celerity of their minds, and they have impressed me.

I believe that I'm capable of matching them wit for wit given enough time, but I to find a way of slowing them down just a little. And I think that making it more prudent for them to be cautious rather then reckless will help to achieve exactly that.

I figure that if I can make them more careful in their endeavors, then not only does it encourage them to plan out their tactics and strategies more, but it also gives me some breathing room.

The breathing room I refer to isn't in terms of the next few rounds, or minutes, or even sessions. Between the players and myself, we cast our machinations and manipulations far into the campaign's future. As I know that they'll think they're ready for me when they arrive there, I simply want to be ready for them when they get there. :smallbiggrin:

I am exploring other ways of getting some breathing room besides this one, but I didn't want to swamp the forum with a whole slew of questions at once.

arguskos
2009-10-03, 04:27 AM
My other main method for making my PCs fear death as a force is making it omnipresent. Death can and may come for my PCs at any damn time. I've had encounters between the party (level 6 at the time) vs. a single minotaur warrior with a razor-studded suit of chainmail vs. 10 level 2 guardsmen. The minotaur used grapple to "cheese-grater" the guardsmen while waiting for the PCs. They opted to run away in fear rather than deal with Mr. Blender. (Note: if clever, they could have taken the minotaur)

If Death is always around the corner or lurking in that cave or whatever, players tend to slow down a touch and be a little more cautious. Just 2cp for ya. :smallwink:

Melamoto
2009-10-03, 04:41 AM
My personal favourite is to make Ressurection only doable by completing a quest. The usual quest idea is that first, they need to collect the soul from the afterlife, and then complete a task for a divine being.

Alternatively, take a look at Ghostwalk. It's a campaign setting, but you could crib it's rules about ghosts: Death is no longer big deal for anyone; they come back as a ghost, and they can be brought back for a measly 500g. But, when they are ghosts, they can only take levels in the "Eidolon" class, which advances their ghost powers. And once the levels in Eidolon equal the levels in other classes, you are permadead. You can also become permadead through various other means while you are a ghost.

Physics_Rook
2009-10-03, 05:01 AM
Arguskos your 2cp worth is very much appreciated. :smallsmile:
This thread has become very rich from all the advice donated to it.
Naturally of course, it'll all be going to a charity. :smallbiggrin:


My other main method for making my PCs fear death as a force is making it omnipresent. Death can and may come for my PCs at any damn time. I've had encounters between the party (level 6 at the time) vs. a single minotaur warrior with a razor-studded suit of chainmail vs. 10 level 2 guardsmen. The minotaur used grapple to "cheese-grater" the guardsmen while waiting for the PCs. They opted to run away in fear rather than deal with Mr. Blender. (Note: if clever, they could have taken the minotaur)

If Death is always around the corner or lurking in that cave or whatever, players tend to slow down a touch and be a little more cautious. Just 2cp for ya. :smallwink:

I'm only a little worried that they might feel cheated if I take away some of their hard earned XP through a random encounter.

I think they wouldn't mind as much if they at least felt that they were doing something useful at the time. But death by random encounter might not sit well with them. :smallfrown:

Preferably, I'd like to keep control over things a little, without making it seem as though it was simply the GM's whim, who lives and who dies.

That way, I could encourage them to act smartly, but also ensure they aren't destroyed by a freak accident.

Of course, I can't make them not be foolish, but I'd rather not have their foolishness to result in their meaningless deaths.

This isn't always possible, and I don't want to seem like I'm holding a double standard, but I'd still like not them to die for nothing.

I believe that when it's harder to rez somebody, the party won't be as willing to charge into a random encounter. Not when it just as risky as actually engaging in plot relevant combat but without any of the perks of successfully claiming victory in a plot relevant battle.


My personal favourite is to make Ressurection only doable by completing a quest. The usual quest idea is that first, they need to collect the soul from the afterlife, and then complete a task for a divine being.

Alternatively, take a look at Ghostwalk. It's a campaign setting, but you could crib it's rules about ghosts: Death is no longer big deal for anyone; they come back as a ghost, and they can be brought back for a measly 500g. But, when they are ghosts, they can only take levels in the "Eidolon" class, which advances their ghost powers. And once the levels in Eidolon equal the levels in other classes, you are permadead. You can also become permadead through various other means while you are a ghost.

I'll have to look through my copy of Ghostwalk again. It's been a while since I've perused it, but it sounds as though there are some interesting alternatives in there.

And in the end, I'm really just looking for alternatives to easy, cheesy, and cheap death. :smallbiggrin:

Glass Mouse
2009-10-03, 05:25 AM
Using the core mechanics without having to change anything would be very nice. But as FatR mentioned, if the enemy is planning on so thoroughly crushing them as to completely remove their possibility of resurrection, the players (who aren't used to facing real death) are going to be not only in over their heads, but also in unfamiliar waters to boot.

If unfamiliarity is a problem, have them start out knowing that this will be an issue.
"Oh, great warriors, we are plagued by this evil wizard who kills people's souls. The last adventuring party died, and not even our best cleric could bring them back."
They'll hesitate quite a bit before barging in on that particular quest. Have it happen a few times after this, always as a surprise. Then they'll start slowing down.

If they are good roleplayers, you could have a talk with them. Explain how each trip to the afterlife makes them long for it more (long lost family, all you could wish for, etc.). They should have this in mind - if they are heavy roleplayers (which I don't know if they are) they'll catch up on this, and either:
- start seeking death.
- getting scared of reaching that point where they won't be willing to go back.
The atheists, of course, will lack this feeling of fulfillment and get nervous about what awaits them.

Incidently, I really like the idea of giving this a mechanic, like that cumulative 1%.

ericgrau
2009-10-03, 10:35 AM
As for the plane of earth, the answer is simple. Yes, it contains diamonds. They are already being mined, and they are as rare there as they are on earth.

The DMG recommends that new players start 1 level below the party's lowest level member IIRC, so rolling up new characters is also covered.

Gralamin
2009-10-03, 10:43 AM
As for the plane of earth, the answer is simple. Yes, it contains diamonds. They are already being mined, and they are as rare there as they are on earth.

The DMG recommends that new players start 1 level below the party's lowest level member IIRC, so rolling up new characters is also covered.

So not rare at all?

ericgrau
2009-10-03, 10:47 AM
The question then becomes why go to the plane of earth to get diamonds? Why not just search their own plane? And any sane world probably already has plenty of reasons why not.

Volkov
2009-10-03, 10:49 AM
That'd worry humans, Elves however would be less worried.

Volkov
2009-10-03, 10:52 AM
As for the plane of earth, the answer is simple. Yes, it contains diamonds. They are already being mined, and they are as rare there as they are on earth.

The DMG recommends that new players start 1 level below the party's lowest level member IIRC, so rolling up new characters is also covered.
The Elemental plane of earth is infinite. There is an infinite amount of wealth, you will find a diamond after a few hours.

PersonMan
2009-10-03, 10:55 AM
The Elemental plane of earth is infinite. There is an infinite amount of wealth, you will find a diamond after a few hours.

Not necessarily. First off, you'd need a way to travel quickly through pure rock/earth/whatever, second you'd need to find somewhere where the conditions are right. It'd be like shopping in an infinitely huge Wal-Mart, where none of the isles were labeled. And all looked the same. And you'd (presumably) be traveling through rock/earth/whatever rather than just walking around. Chances are you wouldn't find one too soon...

Volkov
2009-10-03, 10:57 AM
And then there is the quasi-elemental plane of mineral. Which has a far higher density of precious gems than the plane of earth. The Quasi-elemental plane of mineral is the infinite space where the positive energy plane and plane of earth react with one another. Of course that means your going to have to dig through hard minerals.

Physics_Rook
2009-10-03, 03:09 PM
Thank you Ericgrau, Gralamin, Volkov, and PersonMan. :smallsmile:

You all raise good points about the benefits and limitations of rationaing the diamonds on the elemental planes.

I was wondering though, it seems as though once the players reach sufficiently high level. Say a level where in it becomes easy and cheap to find said diamonds, that death will again become cheap (as they can just flood the market with diamonds). At the very least, it would seem that they'd distribute these diamonds to their own followers.

This in itself doesn't bother me much, if a player has the resources and the determination to carry through with a plan, I'm not one to stand in their way arbitrarily.

But considering that there are demi-gods, deities with a vested interest in their followers, demons & devils of incredible personal power, and much and many more of similarly overpowering traits.

Would not be the case that these other pre-established powerhouses of the D&D multiverse would have already used their powers to support their followers with diamonds.

My preferred method of handling such things, is to make resurrection capabilities either a fairly recent invention, or a spell/ability known or only reproducable by the mortal races.

This makes it more difficult for such creatures as gods, demons, and devils from "breaking" the system before the players even arrive.

And it also serves as a reason to make them a little more nervous around the mortal races.

"Hey Bob! Did you just see that! That human just came back from the dead! So what if time means nothing to me, death means nothing to these guys!":smallbiggrin:

Godskook
2009-10-03, 03:46 PM
Um, aren't there a good number of gods in D&D that are simply 'ascended' mortals?

only1doug
2009-10-03, 03:49 PM
I think people are missing a very important part of the diamond as a material component, It has to be "worth 1000gp"...

Diamonds from the elemental plane of earth are infinite, if they had any value then someone would already have flooded the prime material plane with them years ago. (this could be foreshadowed by including earth plane Gems in a treasure horde, the PCs assuming they are valuable and when they try to sell them being told that they are "sucker diamonds.... pretty but worthless". further to this, if the earth plane diamonds were capable of powering a ressurection spell then they would actually be valuable (maybe they would work on the plane of earth)).

Physics_Rook
2009-10-03, 04:14 PM
Um, aren't there a good number of gods in D&D that are simply 'ascended' mortals?

That certainly can be the case in some campaigns.

I don't mind the idea of "ascended" mortals, though I usually do make a point of showing how much they differ from the "natural" D&D deities.

In particular, I like to think of the various non-mortal based gods as being nearly incapable of directly affecting the world, and are also nearly incapable of understanding how mortals "work".

In effect, I might describe them as seeing the world more like one might look at a game of Risk. It's all about where the power distribution and influence is, and what the world looks like from the big picture.

Meanwhile, I'd use ascended mortals to showcase just how much a person's viewpoint changes upon gaining that much individual power (while responsibility might not come with great power, a completely different outlook on life usually does).

Effectively, if there are people out there that could have and by all rights should have conquered the D&D universe, then I need a way to explain why it hasn't happened.

And the reason being that they are "equal" in terms of power isn't really good enough to cut it. As I'm relatively sure that, much like character optimization, there are certain deities that while technically "equal" to each other, are vastly underpowered when it comes to actually being effectual.


I think people are missing a very important part of the diamond as a material component, It has to be "worth 1000gp"...

Diamonds from the elemental plane of earth are infinite, if they had any value then someone would already have flooded the prime material plane with them years ago. {...}

Indeed, the economic situation in D&D is a complete mess.
Pricing things based on normal economic theories of scarcity and rationing become pointless when you're able to unload a heaping cartload of diamonds onto some poor vendor.


{...} the PCs assuming they are valuable and when they try to sell them being told that they are "sucker diamonds.... pretty but worthless". further to this, if the earth plane diamonds were capable of powering a ressurection spell then they would actually be valuable (maybe they would work on the plane of earth)).

This is an interesting point to bring up.
Is there an inherent difference in the diamonds native to the elemental planes. And supposing that a creature could only be rezzed by a diamond from there own plane, what of planes without diamonds.

I do like the idea though.
Making a diamond's value dependent only on the plane on which it is formed would keep people from abusing the now poor (:smallfrown:) elemental planes.

This would mean that material plane diamonds are always capable of rezzing people (because their value from their home plane is intrinsic and carried with them wherever they go) with no problem.

taltamir
2009-10-03, 04:25 PM
My bad, sorry.

That should have the 10ft over the base 10.
A little more like this.
2^nd6, where n = (every 10ft fallen)/10

Resulting in damage as such:
10ft = 2d6
20ft = 4d6
30ft = 8d6
40ft = 16d6
and so on...


n = (every 10ft fallen)/10 = every 1ft fallen.

What the chart indicates though is n = feet fallen / 10
So falling 10 feet means n = 10/10 = 1
falling 20 feet means n = 20/10 = 2.
And so forth. Which is what your examples use.

only1doug
2009-10-03, 04:32 PM
This is an interesting point to bring up.
Is there an inherent difference in the diamonds native to the elemental planes. And supposing that a creature could only be rezzed by a diamond from there own plane, what of planes without diamonds.


Actually I meant to suggest that perhaps only diamonds components from the plane you are on can be used as a material component in a spell, everything else just fails (wrong viabrations or something).


Indeed, the economic situation in D&D is a complete mess.
Pricing things based on normal economic theories of scarcity and rationing become pointless when you're able to unload a heaping cartload of diamonds onto some poor vendor.

I once had the idea of creating a shopping chain club for powerful wizards, membership fee of 100,000 Gp / year. Members get to buy 2 material components of their choice (anything at all) / year for 9sp, 9cp each.
other components may be purchased normally and can be rushed to you by teleportation for an additional (expensive) delivery charge if required.
Members of this shopping club would therefore be able to use eschew materials for any component that does not have a listed cost and the shopping club would sell a 10 Gp diamond for 1000 Gp so that it fits the criteria for resurrection etc.

Physics_Rook
2009-10-03, 04:36 PM
n = (every 10ft fallen)/10 = every 1ft fallen.

What the chart indicates though is n = feet fallen / 10
So falling 10 feet means n = 10/10 = 1
falling 20 feet means n = 20/10 = 2.
And so forth. Which is what your examples use.

Ah, I see now.
Thank you very much for catching that for me. :smallsmile:
I probably should have actually tested it out after I goofed on the first try.

You know what they say.
Measure twice, cut once. :smallsmile:

Yrcrazypa
2009-10-03, 05:37 PM
Another way could be to limit the power of the casters. Don't let them be at full power at all times and they won't be as confident. If the wizard is out of spells, and the cleric is too, they will be a lot more careful about death. The limited number of spells is what is supposed to be the balancing factor for casters, so why remove that limit? That'd be similar to making fighters unable to ever die, since if you only have 3 encounters a day for casters, they have more than enough spells to handle that.

Kylarra
2009-10-03, 05:42 PM
Another way could be to limit the power of the casters. Don't let them be at full power at all times and they won't be as confident. If the wizard is out of spells, and the cleric is too, they will be a lot more careful about death. The limited number of spells is what is supposed to be the balancing factor for casters, so why remove that limit? That'd be similar to making fighters unable to ever die, since if you only have 3 encounters a day for casters, they have more than enough spells to handle that.The problem with that is that fighter at 1hp fights as well as fighter at full hp, whereas wizard with 0 spells fights as well as ... well pretty much nothing. "Hey guys, have fun playing, I'm gonna sit in the back and do nothing... again. Someday we'll get to rest and I'll be able to play the game right?"

ErrantX
2009-10-03, 06:03 PM
One solution I have placed in my current campaign is a type of demon that manifests only in crystalline forms if it hasn't taken a humanoid host, having no corporeal form of its own. Someone slain by one of these crystal weapons does not pass go, collect resurrection, and get a cookie. They get eaten up by the demon; welcome to perma-death barring wish or miracle followed by a resurrection or true resurrection to actually raise them. This has given them a healthy fear of BBEG's and their minions.

-X

taltamir
2009-10-03, 06:23 PM
The problem with that is that fighter at 1hp fights as well as fighter at full hp, whereas wizard with 0 spells fights as well as ... well pretty much nothing. "Hey guys, have fun playing, I'm gonna sit in the back and do nothing... again. Someday we'll get to rest and I'll be able to play the game right?"

one of the things 4E did right was give everyone "at will", "per encounter" and "per day" powers.
The wizard / fighter balance in 3e is: the wizard is unimaginably stronger, but runs out of juice after X encounters where he has to sit in the back and let the fighters do all the work.

Actually, a way to "balance" wizards and fights in 3.5e is to actually let this occur... have X fights until casters run out of magic, now have X more fights before they are allowed to rest... tada, balance... of course its not fun.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-03, 06:27 PM
Isn't that why they invented reserve feats? And Zen Archery clerics?

arguskos
2009-10-03, 06:29 PM
Physics_Rook, I think you misunderstand me a touch.

I dislike stealing life away from a player due to a random encounter, yes. It sucks horribly. HOWEVER, that said, I run games where when you walk in the door, I greet you with a smile, a handshake, and a warning that "this game will be brutally lethal if you are stupid and go looking for trouble". I also warn players that I pull no punches when it comes to combat, and when they draw steel, people are gonna die. possibly them. :smallwink:

It's all about the feel of the game. If you warn people when the game begins, and ensure they understand your full meaning, then it's all good. :smallwink:

Disclaimer: this is not for everyone. My group happens to enjoy it somewhat, and is fairly cautious these days. But, crit happens. Sucks too.

taltamir
2009-10-03, 06:32 PM
Isn't that why they invented reserve feats? And Zen Archery clerics?

reserve feats are pretty weak (and requires that you have not yet spent your magic for the day)
as for archery... with partial bab? ok, fine, your caster is now a sub par archer. Heck, wizards can also do sub par archery.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-03, 06:58 PM
You're a cleric. And your wisdom (attack stat) is quite high. Even without divine power you should do tolerably. Or you could be a druid. But you are, indeed, quite weaker, and therefore to a degree "balance" has been achieved. I prefer more direct social solutions to the problem, but this works too.

On the original topic, I don't see why it's so horrible. When you're playing for low stakes, yeah, an unlucky crit-induced death is a speed bump. If you're in a high speed car chase against a BBEG... a speed bump is at best a massive obstacle to winning, and at worst a horrible crash/burn/explosion. I've never had too much restriction on resurrection, and I've almost always feared death. Getting to high level brings you a lot of enemies - and with them all baying for your blood and potentially ready to scry-and-die at any time; dieing is your Achilles Heel. It's not instant annihilation, but it is an extreme nadir in your power, which is quite fearful. Not to mention the potential for whatever killed me to just Soul Bind...

You say you need realism, but realism went out the window at sixth level. Even for non-mages. What we need is verisimilitude - a facsimile of self-consistency. And resurrection, as long as you're a careful player, fits into that. Death still has fangs, and the DR you have against those fangs doesn't change the fact that they hurt.

You state that easy(-ish) resurrection makes characters throw-away-ware, but I disagree with that. Every time I get resurrected instead of making a new character, that emphasizes the importance of the character I chose to keep. And resurrection is not a license to go Rambo and/or Stupid - Soul Bind, Barghests, and Scry-And-Die enemies ready to catch me when I'm all confused and disorganized from death.

I say "easy-ish" because resurrection has its penalties. Most notably, XP loss. That's a big factor in why you're weak around time of death - no gear + spell loss + level loss = very vulnerable, especially when something just overpowered your full-strength self. So XP loss, in my view, is a strong penalty that doesn't remove too many of the pros of easy resurrection. I would, for example, initially support the extra-harsh level loss system you proposed. Whether that support continues would be based on results, but IMO looks good.

Rainbownaga
2009-10-03, 07:01 PM
Why not make the diamond market in the game parallel real life. Sure, there are heaps of diamonds around, but someone else is hoarding them to drive up market pressures. And, worse, they are somehow contaminating the diamonds in the elemental plane of earth, making them slightly less sparkly and completely useless for magical purposes.

Until the players can figure out some way of reversing the process, they have to search the markets to find sufficient quality diamonds, and gradually the prices go up. Soon, they will be paying ten times as much for the necissary components.

Sure, as they kill the bad guys they will gain access to diamonds, but this supply will be limited and since the bad guys are working within the law, the heroes can't just go breaking into warehouses (which would be heavily guarded anyway) and raiding shops.

Finally, they will amass a nice supply of diamonds, but there is no way to reverse the contamination of the supply of diamonds; at this point the players can settle for being ridiculously wealthy (and having other adventurers targeting them or go on a quest to find a cure for the contamination (

NB- I know the elemental plane of earth is infinite, but there may only be a finite number of access points from the material plain, and a rapidly spreading effect could spread faster than the players could.

arguskos
2009-10-03, 07:08 PM
reserve feats are pretty weak (and requires that you have not yet spent your magic for the day)
Reserve Feats are anything but weak. Summon Elemental is great. Fiery Burst lets you dig through anything and destroy any trap, provided you are in no hurry.


as for archery... with partial bab? ok, fine, your caster is now a sub par archer. Heck, wizards can also do sub par archery.
Zen Archery makes it Wis based instead of Dex based, and clerics have SOO MANY ways to boost their attack that it's silly to claim 3/4 BAB as an issue.

CockroachTeaParty
2009-10-03, 07:10 PM
How do you make PC's fear death? Place a revolver on the table, in clear sight of all your players. :smallwink:

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-03, 07:17 PM
Not necessarily. First off, you'd need a way to travel quickly through pure rock/earth/whatever, second you'd need to find somewhere where the conditions are right. It'd be like shopping in an infinitely huge Wal-Mart, where none of the isles were labeled. And all looked the same. And you'd (presumably) be traveling through rock/earth/whatever rather than just walking around. Chances are you wouldn't find one too soon...

Totemists can get a burrow speed IIRC.




Here's an easy way to make Rezzing dangerous: Instead of giving them a Negative Level every time, give them a level of Commoner. Every time you die, you slowly lose the ability to progress in your class until you are nothing more than a Commoner who multiclassed into something decent.

Cruel and unusual. Efficient if you also allow PH2 Retraining, but require the Quest with it.

chiasaur11
2009-10-03, 07:21 PM
Totemists can get a burrow speed IIRC.




Here's an easy way to make Rezzing dangerous: Instead of giving them a Negative Level every time, give them a level of Commoner. Every time you die, you slowly lose the ability to progress in your class until you are nothing more than a Commoner who multiclassed into something decent.

Cruel and unusual. Efficient if you also allow PH2 Retraining, but require the Quest with it.

So, you pick up a little bit of the souls of the bulk of the dead?

I kind of like it, in an odd way.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-03, 07:24 PM
So, you pick up a little bit of the souls of the bulk of the dead?

I kind of like it, in an odd way.

I didn't even look at it like that. I approve.

taltamir
2009-10-03, 07:38 PM
Reserve Feats are anything but weak. Summon Elemental is great. Fiery Burst lets you dig through anything and destroy any trap, provided you are in no hurry.

ok they are not all that bad. that summon elemental is especially nice, with a level 4 summon spell unused you can have unlimited castings of a level 3 spell... with duration reduced from 1 round / CL to 4 rounds... (or more if you have a higher level spell in reserve, but why bother?)...
Still, it costs a feat and it will quickly become obsolete as a "free" level 3 spell that costs a feat and can be cast once per round will be less and less useful as you level.


Zen Archery makes it Wis based instead of Dex based, and clerics have SOO MANY ways to boost their attack that it's silly to claim 3/4 BAB as an issue.

by definition, they have expended their spells for the day. :)
the question was what can they do when they are out of spells...

arguskos
2009-10-03, 07:40 PM
by definition, they have expended their spells for the day. :)
the question was what can they do when they are out of spells...
Be a good damn archer. :smalltongue: 3/4 BAB is fine when you're boosting attack thanks to Zen Archery. Give them a good Splitting Energy Bow and you're set. Really dude, Zen Archery clerics are damn nice. :smallwink:

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-03, 07:47 PM
ok they are not all that bad. that summon elemental is especially nice, with a level 4 summon spell unused you can have unlimited castings of a level 3 spell... with duration reduced from 1 round / CL to 4 rounds... (or more if you have a higher level spell in reserve, but why bother?)...
Still, it costs a feat and it will quickly become obsolete as a "free" level 3 spell that costs a feat and can be cast once per round will be less and less useful as you level.


1: Reserve feats are better than wasting feat slots on things like Agile.

2: When you've all ready shut down the opponent's ability to take actions relevant to killing your party and you, or just feel the need to sweep a few Mooks, or need to find a trap without wasting a spell, or want to dig through an Adamantine Door without casting an Acid spell, Reserve feats are a better option than pulling out your Crossbow/Quarterstaff and getting personal. Also, the War Domain's Reserve feat in CC is really good for a Persist Cleric who has the domain.



By definition, they have expended their spells for the day. :)
the question was what can they do when they are out of spells...

When do they run out? They have a 20% increase in base spells/day on the Wizard. At the lowest levels, when spells/day actually matter, they can still do their job, just at a lower attack bonus. I've proven that spell slots are almost meaningless after a set point (especially near 20th level), so there shouldn't be any confusion here.

Also, Divine feats. If the Cleric has them, they can still use them.

Volkov
2009-10-03, 07:53 PM
Throw lots of enemies that could kill them off with a chance of making them permanently dead. Devourers are a good example.

Physics_Rook
2009-10-03, 11:45 PM
Physics_Rook, I think you misunderstand me a touch.

I dislike stealing life away from a player due to a random encounter, yes. It sucks horribly. HOWEVER, that said, I run games where when you walk in the door, I greet you with a smile, a handshake, and a warning that "this game will be brutally lethal if you are stupid and go looking for trouble". I also warn players that I pull no punches when it comes to combat, and when they draw steel, people are gonna die. possibly them. :smallwink:

It's all about the feel of the game. If you warn people when the game begins, and ensure they understand your full meaning, then it's all good. :smallwink:

Disclaimer: this is not for everyone. My group happens to enjoy it somewhat, and is fairly cautious these days. But, crit happens. Sucks too.

I believe you're right, I may have misunderstood you.
My apologies if I put words into your mouth (or post).

I do try my best to go over with my players the sort of game atmosphere I'm trying to promote, so that they know what to reasonably expect.

And I certainly agree that such a change in the gameplay style of D&D it isn't for everyone. But I think my players will enjoy the added challenge it presents them.


How do you make PC's fear death? Place a revolver on the table, in clear sight of all your players. :smallwink:

Indeed, it turns out that that is a good answer to a great deal of questions.
But I was thinking of going a different way this time ... :smallbiggrin:


Throw lots of enemies that could kill them off with a chance of making them permanently dead. Devourers are a good example.

Though not the first time it has been suggested on this thread, the frequency with which this answer occurs has prompted me to look further into the idea than I was initially considering.

It may be that I've misjudged the amount of variety of these soul destroying evil nasties.

The variety of these monsters was what initially threw me off. I wasn't (and to an extent am still not) very aware of how many there were. And I didn't feel particularly comfortable trying to continuously come up with reasons why the PCs' foes would invariably encounter such a distinctly unique creature every single time they face off against their foes.

But, if there are enough of these creatures out there, it would definitely be an option worth looking in to. :smallsmile:

Even better would be a template that you could apply to a creature that would allow it to consume/steal/destroy souls.

In fact it could be a central theme of part of a campaign. An evil wizard lets loose a menagerie of soul-eating monsters on the world, cue PCs to try and clean things up.

nightwyrm
2009-10-04, 12:09 AM
How do you make PC's fear death? Place a revolver on the table, in clear sight of all your players. :smallwink:

Your character dies, you die.

D&D: hardcore mode. :smallbiggrin:

Yrcrazypa
2009-10-04, 12:21 AM
The problem with that is that fighter at 1hp fights as well as fighter at full hp, whereas wizard with 0 spells fights as well as ... well pretty much nothing. "Hey guys, have fun playing, I'm gonna sit in the back and do nothing... again. Someday we'll get to rest and I'll be able to play the game right?"

And the fighters are so overshadowed by the wizard when the wizard is at full power that they could just throw pebbles at the enemies and not change the course of battle negatively. A high level wizard is just so much more powerful than a high level fighter it isn't even funny. The fighter doesn't get ANY time to shine if the wizard is kept at full power.

taltamir
2009-10-04, 12:30 AM
You know, those nice archer clerics would probably need point blank shot too.. and wizards could do with more than one reserve feat.
Looking at the math though, they could make component "all day" abilities...

So yes, you can give them something to do when out of spells at the cost of a few feats / spell-slots. But that requires less of a focus on their spell's power and effectiveness (when they still have those)...
And what class is the "I have 20% more spells than a wizard"?

Kylarra
2009-10-04, 12:35 AM
And the fighters are so overshadowed by the wizard when the wizard is at full power that they could just throw pebbles at the enemies and not change the course of battle negatively. A high level wizard is just so much more powerful than a high level fighter it isn't even funny. The fighter doesn't get ANY time to shine if the wizard is kept at full power.Well, they still get to hit those debuffed baddies anyway, assuming the wizard is playing somewhat friendly. Or if they win initiative, at least kill one thing with their schtick. The wizard with no spells? might as well not be playing.

MCerberus
2009-10-04, 12:55 AM
I think the best way to instill fear is to take munchy privileges away from players with dead characters.

FatR
2009-10-04, 03:33 AM
Sure, as they kill the bad guys they will gain access to diamonds, but this supply will be limited and since the bad guys are working within the law, the heroes can't just go breaking into warehouses (which would be heavily guarded anyway) and raiding shops.
At the level True Resurrection is available, PCs are so far above any law, that they can spit on it from orbit. Seriously, if you cannot crush and raise empires for sport at level 17, you fail at your DnD life.

arguskos
2009-10-04, 03:59 AM
I believe you're right, I may have misunderstood you.
My apologies if I put words into your mouth (or post).

I do try my best to go over with my players the sort of game atmosphere I'm trying to promote, so that they know what to reasonably expect.

And I certainly agree that such a change in the gameplay style of D&D it isn't for everyone. But I think my players will enjoy the added challenge it presents them.
No issues at all. I just wanted to clarify, so you can understand me better, that's all. :smallwink: Glad you think you'll like the idea.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-04, 06:50 AM
Even better would be a template that you could apply to a creature that would allow it to consume/steal/destroy souls.

In fact it could be a central theme of part of a campaign. An evil wizard lets loose a menagerie of soul-eating monsters on the world, cue PCs to try and clean things up.

Sounds nice. Especially if the soul is freed upon the monster's death. Still allows for a whole host of problems. Regdar got his soul eaten by an Ogre. A very generic-looking ogre. It got redeployed to the other side of the world to fight a war there.

Sholos
2009-10-04, 09:43 AM
At the level True Resurrection is available, PCs are so far above any law, that they can spit on it from orbit. Seriously, if you cannot crush and raise empires for sport at level 17, you fail at your DnD life.

I think you are forgetting to acknowledge every lawful character out there, as well as a good portion of the good ones, and possibly even some of the neutrals. Yeah, a CE character might not have any problems using violence to get what he wants, and neither would most NE characters. Your standard LG character though? No way he's breaking into a warehouse just to get some diamonds. A CG character I would expect to feel bad about it if he actually did it (hint: stealing from merchants isn't really "good", normally).

In other words, your statement only applies to a very small percentage of players out there.

Ormagoden
2009-10-20, 01:09 PM
Resurrection Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 7
Casting time: 10 minutes


This spell functions like raise dead, except that you are able to restore life and complete strength to any deceased creature.

The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level.

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of prepared spells. However, the subject loses one level, or 2 points of Constitution if the subject was 1st level. (If this reduction would bring its Con to 0 or lower, it can’t be resurrected). This level loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means.

You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be resurrected.

Material Component: A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 10,000 gp.


True Resurrection Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 9
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)


You restore life to a deceased creature. You can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method). In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.

None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age.

Material Component: A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 25,000 gp.




Lets take a look at the above shall we!

Here is an example of how I handle them in my campaign setting.

Creatures with a subtype- Fey for instance. They go to a special realm. An afterlife specifically for them. Take a look at the heavenly and diabolical planes for examples. If your satyr buddy dies you have to complete a few specific tasks in order to get him resurrected. (All creatures go to an afterlife this is just an example)

1) You cast the resurrection spell
(it takes 10 minutes to cast but each step takes after the casting takes 1d4 hours to complete.)

2) You must locate the appropriate afterlife with a DC 20 knowledge religion check. (if this fails the resurrection fails and must be cast again.)

3) Your soul arrives at the appropriate afterlife and you must locate the soul of the subject of your resurrection. At this point a few skills can be used all with DC 20 difficulties. You could use gather information speaking to local souls in an attempt to find your target. You could use diplomacy or bluff to convince a representative (angel, devil, ect) to take you to. If you succeed you locate your friend. (if this fails the resurrection does not fail you simply continue to spend 1d4 hours looking for your friend.)


4) You must convince your friend to come back! This can lead to some awesome roleplay! Does the target want to leave? can the cleric convince their friend to leave the afterlife behind and return to help? Is the character saved from the depredations of hell and ready to turn over a new leaf? If the player is attempting to to resurrect an NPC you can ask for a DC20 diplomacy check that represents the speech if you want to skip the roleplay (GASP!) (if this fails the resurrection fails and must be cast again.)


5) If you succeed at the above there is one final encounter. You must convince the gatekeeper to let the soul go. Gate keepers are powerful beings (usually a bit under CR for the smaller party of 2). The gatekeeper is usually never willing to part with a soul and starts off as hostile. Players can attempt to convince the gatekeeper but usually a fight breaks out. A demon will after all attempt to keep it's juicy souls and an archon may need the soul to prove its worth before it can leave for the prime material plane again. (if this fails the resurrection fails and must be cast again.)

If at any point your body back on the prime material plane takes any damage, including damage from starvation or ability damage, you immediately return to your body and the resurrection fails.


all in all this does a few things...
1) Players can FAIL at resurrection.
2) Resurrection is difficult.
3) It heightens drama.
4) The afterlife doesn't seem like a revolving door.

Obviously feel free to use this if you like it or alter it. Maybe if the soul ends up in a bad place the whole party has to take their soulselves there risking their immortal selves for a chance at saving a friend. Its not like angels like people running around the afterlife whilly nilly either! they might come out to face the transgressors and oust them. (This can also lead to another opportunity...what do the character's soulselves look like? What are they equipped with? Maybe give them a huge allotment of gold and say ok go crazy your soulself is the perfect image your character has of themselves. Arm yourselves and go after your friend. See I inspired myself! Ha ha that will be fun for the first true resurrection in my campaign setting!)

In the case above my DMPC satyr (Who was mostly around as comedy relief) bit it to a black guards surprise round and sneak attack (crits with a great axe 'll do that to a guy) The blackguard was pretty tough and had a lot of teleports at his disposal...He flew off and the party chased him, a few moments later he teleported back and used a nearby magic portal to escape. Not before dragging the body of the fallen satyr into the unknown of course.

Omegonthesane
2009-10-20, 01:18 PM
I think you are forgetting to acknowledge every lawful character out there, as well as a good portion of the good ones, and possibly even some of the neutrals. Yeah, a CE character might not have any problems using violence to get what he wants, and neither would most NE characters. Your standard LG character though? No way he's breaking into a warehouse just to get some diamonds. A CG character I would expect to feel bad about it if he actually did it (hint: stealing from merchants isn't really "good", normally).

In other words, your statement only applies to a very small percentage of players out there.

Your standard L17 LG character doesn't need to break into a warehouse to get some diamonds, because he is the Emperor Democratically Elected Chancellor of the Entire Game World, or a highly-ranked member of said Emperor Chancellor's government, and can simply order his civil servants to get the diamonds. Or order his noble djinni servants to grant him wishes for diamonds.

Your standard 17th level CG character is a celebrity of such great wealth, charisma, and fame (or just charisma and fame, if he has VoP) that he can tell anyone to give him the diamonds for True Resurrection and they will do it for nothing more than his autograph.

Your standard 17th level NG character is one or both of the above two. Your standard LG character may actually be both of the above as well by 17th level.

BritishBill
2009-10-20, 01:22 PM
Yea, its tough to get my group of players to fear death as well. We have a player who always winds up getting killed by the party almost every session. Its not because they dislike him, he really makes it so you don't have any choice. In fact in my last session a player killed his own character because he didnt like the way i ran my game, go figure lol. I guess the only way for a player to truly fear death is to make a character they truly enjoy. Have them put alot of effort into it. Make them write you a couple of pages backstory so they really care about it. That might make them think twice about making silly moves.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-20, 01:44 PM
You know, those nice archer clerics would probably need point blank shot too.. and wizards could do with more than one reserve feat.
Looking at the math though, they could make component "all day" abilities...

So yes, you can give them something to do when out of spells at the cost of a few feats / spell-slots. But that requires less of a focus on their spell's power and effectiveness (when they still have those)...
And what class is the "I have 20% more spells than a wizard"?

Cleric, not counting Domain spells. 5 spells/level versus 4 spells/level. Technically, 25%, not 20%, but it's 20% if you look at it from the Cleric's side instead of the Wizard's.

Counting specialization? Then you include Domain slots. 6 is 20% larger than 5.


And Clerics have feats to spare. Feats out their freaking eyebrows.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-20, 02:29 PM
Focused Specialist for an extra bonus spell/level?