[3.5 MIC] Belt of Healing Price?

[Rhiannon87]

In one of the games I'm in, the guy playing our cleric is... flaky. He rarely makes it to game, and in a game as fraught with peril as this one, we need all the healing we can get. My DM normally doesn't like the MIC (finds many items in it broken), but I told him about the healing belt and he said that sounded fine... until I told him the price. At which point he said that the price for it was going to have to be hiked up considerably, because 750 gp for that item is way too cheap.

I'm inclined to agree, and I was getting ready to negotiate a new price for the item. So I decided to see if I could figure out how this price of 750 gp was determined...

Using the formulas provided on how to make magic items, I did the following. It's a command word item with 3 charges per day, and the highest-level spell cast out of it is cure critical wounds, so:

4 (spell level ) x 7 (caster level) x 1800 = 50400
50400/(5/3) = 30240

Which is crazy stupid expensive. So... the MIC says the spell required is cure moderate wounds, which makes very little sense to me, but let's try that one.

2 (spell level) x 3 (caster level) x 1800 = 10800
10800/(5/3) = 6480

That's much more reasonable, and in fact what I would expect to pay for an item like this. So I'm probably going to present 6500 gp as an offer to my DM. Does this seem logical to everyone else? And can anyone explain why the heck an item that's as powerful as the healing belt costs so very, very little?

[arguskos]

Because it's needed in games that lack reliable, in-party, healing. I recommend it to my players in any game ever, simply because it doesn't scale that well and is only good at low levels.

[Douglas]

A Healing Belt costs exactly the same as a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. Said wand will heal an average of 275 hp before running out of charges. A Healing Belt used only for the most efficient activation of 1 charge per use heals an average of 27 hp per day. At the end of 10 days, the Healing Belt is merely on par with the wand, and that's if you actually need the belt's full healing for all 10 of those days and never need more than that on any particular day.

Now, given that you actually use the Belt each of those 10 days, you presumably had a significant combat encounter on each of those days. With typical encounters, that will get you most of the way to the next level, and several thousand (or tens of thousands, depending on your level) gold pieces worth of loot. At that point, the cost of replacing the wand is pocket change.

So, uh, why is the Healing Belt underpriced, again? Sure, it'll save you 750 gp when it comes time to replace that wand, but by then 750 gold is insignificant and in the mean time you're sacrificing the flexibility to spend a lot of charges in one day when you really need it.

Now consider that a Wand of Lesser Vigor also costs the same and heals 550 hp over the course of its 50 charges...

The RAW price of 750 gp for a Healing Belt is balanced. There is no need to raise it at all.

[RagnaroksChosen]

In one of the games I'm in, the guy playing our cleric is... flaky. He rarely makes it to game, and in a game as fraught with peril as this one, we need all the healing we can get. My DM normally doesn't like the MIC (finds many items in it broken), but I told him about the healing belt and he said that sounded fine... until I told him the price. At which point he said that the price for it was going to have to be hiked up considerably, because 750 gp for that item is way too cheap.

I'm inclined to agree, and I was getting ready to negotiate a new price for the item. So I decided to see if I could figure out how this price of 750 gp was determined...

Using the formulas provided on how to make magic items, I did the following. It's a command word item with 3 charges per day, and the highest-level spell cast out of it is cure critical wounds, so:

4 (spell level ) x 7 (caster level) x 1800 = 50400
50400/(5/3) = 30240

Which is crazy stupid expensive. So... the MIC says the spell required is cure moderate wounds, which makes very little sense to me, but let's try that one.

2 (spell level) x 3 (caster level) x 1800 = 10800
10800/(5/3) = 6480

That's much more reasonable, and in fact what I would expect to pay for an item like this. So I'm probably going to present 6500 gp as an offer to my DM. Does this seem logical to everyone else? And can anyone explain why the heck an item that's as powerful as the healing belt costs so very, very little?


If hes gonna raise it that high i would make him allow you to change the slot to something less used.

[technophile]

I remember similar discussions when the MIC first came out; I think the most commonly proposed "fix" was to double the price to 1500; I don't recall any more expensive proposals at all.

Personally I think 750 is probably fine, considered against the wands as douglas mentions.

[Sinfire Titan]

The RAW price of 750 gp for a Healing Belt is balanced. There is no need to raise it at all.

It's not a need. His DM just hates them MIC. His DM has no idea that the MIC was reprinted because the DMG overprices items. If his DM sat down and read it, he would find that written in the book itself.

So it's more of his DM screwing him over than anything else.

[Rhiannon87]

It's not a need. His DM just hates them MIC. His DM has no idea that the MIC was reprinted because the DMG overprices items. If his DM sat down and read it, he would find that written in the book itself.

So it's more of his DM screwing him over than anything else.

Her DM, actually. And he's not trying to screw anyone over. We're actually playing a very high-powered game where we have lots of cash and lots of expensive items. He's willing to look at the MIC, but a lot of the items in there seem underpriced for what they do, hence the negotiating. I and many other players in our group agree that they seem underpriced, so I guess we're just screwing ourselves. :smalltongue:

Douglas, that's a fair point about the usefulness of the item. I'll make a couple pitches to my DM, but with the amount of money that we have lying around, even the higher price of 6500 gp isn't too terrible for most party members. I'm also planning on pulling extra money into the party treasury so I can hand out healing potions like they're candy.

[Lapak]

A Healing Belt costs exactly the same as a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. Said wand will heal an average of 275 hp before running out of charges. A Healing Belt used only for the most efficient activation of 1 charge per use heals an average of 27 hp per day.Most efficient in terms of charges is one thing; most efficient in terms of action economy is another. Since the belt can potentially heal more than the Wand in a single action IIRC, it is much more difficult to compare the price of them so directly.

(Not saying definitely that the belt is underpriced, just noting that it isn't quite as simple as you suggest.)

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah...a wand of CLW is both slotless, more flexible, and in many instances, cheaper. If you have UMD(and if available, why wouldn't you?), I'd advise that over the belt.

Upping the price on the belt makes it worthless very rapidly. It's only good at early levels as it is.

[Rhiannon87]

Yeah...a wand of CLW is both slotless, more flexible, and in many instances, cheaper. If you have UMD(and if available, why wouldn't you?), I'd advise that over the belt.

Upping the price on the belt makes it worthless very rapidly. It's only good at early levels as it is.

Cure Light Wounds doesn't provide the kind of healing we frequently need in combat. We need more healing than 1d8+1 every round. Potions of Cure Serious Wounds are pretty much our standby at this point. I don't quite see how getting 5 or 6 hit points back every round is more useful than 12, 19, or 25 hit points. Honestly, even those numbers are low for what we usually need, but it's certainly better than nothing, and certainly better than 5 hp.

[Sinfire Titan]

Cure Light Wounds doesn't provide the kind of healing we frequently need in combat. We need more healing than 1d8+1 every round. Potions of Cure Serious Wounds are pretty much our standby at this point. I don't quite see how getting 5 or 6 hit points back every round is more useful than 12, 19, or 25 hit points. Honestly, even those numbers are low for what we usually need, but it's certainly better than nothing, and certainly better than 5 hp.

Potions suck. Especially healing ones.


Drinking it provokes an attack, so it's possible to lose more HP than you gain.
The prices are absurd.
The effects are limited to 3rd level and lower spell with a strong restriction on range.


If you want to use Cure Moderate or better, get a Rod of Many Wands (CM) and 3 wands of Cure Serious Wounds, and an Artificer in the party. Have him use the rod. Because 9d8+15 as a Full Round action that doesn't provoke is better than 3d8+5 as a standard action that provokes.

[Cieyrin]

Potions suck. Especially healing ones.


Drinking it provokes an attack, so it's possible to lose more HP than you gain.
The prices are absurd.
The effects are limited to 3rd level and lower spell with a strong restriction on range.


If you want to use Cure Moderate or better, get a Rod of Many Wands (CM) and 3 wands of Cure Serious Wounds, and an Artificer in the party. Have him use the rod. Because 9d8+15 as a Full Round action that doesn't provoke is better than 3d8+5 as a standard action that provokes.

I approve of the Healing Bazooka.:smallbiggrin:

[Foryn Gilnith]

Cure Light Wounds doesn't provide the kind of healing we frequently need in combat.

In-combat healing is generally...eh.
If you make an attack instead, you deal N damage. That damage will result in the monster falling 1 round or so earlier. That's one round of attacks that your party never suffered, which can be at least a Cure Moderate Wounds as far as "healing" goes - and without spending spells.

Heal up to full with cheap wands like CLW before combat, when using actions isn't relevant. If you're going from full to dead in one combat... buff more? I dunno.

[Sinfire Titan]

I approve of the Healing Bazooka.:smallbiggrin:

Shotgun. Bazooka happens when you do the same thing, but with three scrolls of Heal. I don't think there's an item that lets you use three scrolls at once, but it would be the equivalent of a Bazooka if it did (sounds appropriate).

A Healing Nuke is when you somehow convert the Locate City bomb into Positive Energy.

[Douglas]

Cure Light Wounds doesn't provide the kind of healing we frequently need in combat. We need more healing than 1d8+1 every round. Potions of Cure Serious Wounds are pretty much our standby at this point. I don't quite see how getting 5 or 6 hit points back every round is more useful than 12, 19, or 25 hit points. Honestly, even those numbers are low for what we usually need, but it's certainly better than nothing, and certainly better than 5 hp.
Unless you can drop a Heal spell or something of similar magnitude, or someone is unconscious and bleeding or almost certainly about to be so and healing is the only way to prevent it, it is almost always better to try to take out the enemy faster or have the injured character flee rather than try to heal someone. In combat healing in 3.5e just plain isn't fast enough compared to damage rates to be worth it unless you are either level 1 and getting lucky with CLW or using Heal or something similarly powerful. At anything but level 1, in combat healing done right is almost always either Heal or stabilizing someone. You're not going to get Heal in item form, and even Cure Minor Wounds is enough to stabilize. Everything else should normally be evaluated on the assumption that it will be used out of combat where the rate of healing is almost irrelevant.

[Cieyrin]

Shotgun. Bazooka happens when you do the same thing, but with three scrolls of Heal. I don't think there's an item that lets you use three scrolls at once, but it would be the equivalent of a Bazooka if it did (sounds appropriate).

A Healing Nuke is when you somehow convert the Locate City bomb into Positive Energy.

I worry at the prospect of needing 450 HP worth of healing. Also, nuking a place with Positive Energy probably isn't any less detrimental, given I recall some callout of the the Positive Energy Plane saying that once you exceed Temp HP equal to your normal HP, you explode. 0_0

[Tyndmyr]

Cure Light Wounds doesn't provide the kind of healing we frequently need in combat. We need more healing than 1d8+1 every round. Potions of Cure Serious Wounds are pretty much our standby at this point. I don't quite see how getting 5 or 6 hit points back every round is more useful than 12, 19, or 25 hit points. Honestly, even those numbers are low for what we usually need, but it's certainly better than nothing, and certainly better than 5 hp.

Well, the thing about in-combat healing is that it's not that great. You're honestly better off keeping it to an absolute minimum. And, once out of combat, speed becomes mostly irrelevant.

Be aware that the belt of healing is only going to average 9hp on a 1 charge heal, and 18 on the 3 charge heal, and it only gets 3 charges per day. It's not going to solve your in combat healing problems, it's really only meant for the odd hairy situation.

Cure serious wounds potions are amazingly inefficient cost wise, though. It's a giant money pit. That's without even considering the attack of opportunity. And frankly, you're most likely to need urgent healing when someone is threatening you. If you take damage from it, well...odds are that heal was wasted.

[Sinfire Titan]

I worry at the prospect of needing 450 HP worth of healing. Also, nuking a place with Positive Energy probably isn't any less detrimental, given I recall some callout of the the Positive Energy Plane saying that once you exceed Temp HP equal to your normal HP, you explode. 0_0

Only happens on the Positive Energy Plane. Unless the spell says otherwise, such healing is quite safe for living beings.

[Douglas]

Her DM, actually. And he's not trying to screw anyone over. We're actually playing a very high-powered game where we have lots of cash and lots of expensive items. He's willing to look at the MIC, but a lot of the items in there seem underpriced for what they do, hence the negotiating. I and many other players in our group agree that they seem underpriced, so I guess we're just screwing ourselves. :smalltongue:
They seem underpriced compared to all the overpriced items in the DMG. I am quite an experienced optimizer, and I could go through the DMG and put all the magic items there into categories labelled "good", "marginal", "not worth it", and "utter trash". The "not worth it" and "utter trash" lists would be considerably longer than the other two. MIC pricing came about because the people at WotC finally realized this fact. MIC prices are underpriced if you compare them with the majority of the DMG magic items, the ones in the "not worth it" and "utter trash" lists. Compared with the "good" and "marginal" items, they are merely on par, if that.

Oh, and healing potions other than Cure Light Wounds are most definitely in the "utter trash" category. CLW itself is marginal, and that only because it's good for stabilizing and doing at least some healing, can be used by anyone, and has no cheaper alternatives (in core) that satisfy both criteria.

[Bayar]

Only happens on the Positive Energy Plane. Unless the spell says otherwise, such healing is quite safe for living beings.

There was a build somewhere that overhealed everybody around him with pozitive energy until they exploded from all the holy goodness.

[lsfreak]

And can anyone explain why the heck an item that's as powerful as the healing belt costs so very, very little?

Because people place undue weight on healing. It's not a powerful item, except maybe in the most unoptimized of campaigns. In-combat healing is horrible in terms of both action economy and price (two exceptions being heal and crusaders), while unlimited out-of-combat healing is incredibly cheap (lesser vigor, binders, dragon shaman, hired NPC's, various other tricks). I'd consider making 2000gp and 5000gp versions (each just adding more charges) long before I would ever consider upping the price of a healing belt.

As for prices: The healing belt can heal at most 4d8 in an action, while Cure Critical heals an average of 50% more than that at minimum caster level. If you're going to price it against a spell, price it against Cure Moderate. Which is still grossly overpriced considering other forms of healing (lesser vigor) and how useless in-combat healing is.

EDIT: vv d8's, right.

[Tyndmyr]

Healing belt uses D8's, no? So, caps out at 4d8?

Still, not that impressive for a 1xday ability once you've got a coupla levels under your belt. And frankly, if you need *that much* healing that a wand of CLW isn't going to cut it...a belt of healing isn't going to fix your problems either.

I do enjoy belts of healing, but I only advocate them as supplemental healing for low level parties. The primary weight of your healing should be elsewhere since that just isn't enough beyond...oooh, about level two.

[Rhiannon87]

A lot of the suggestions for alternate methods of healing aren't really options for our party. In-combat healing isn't practical, I agree, but you can't keep dealing damage to take out the enemies if your melee fighters are, you know, dead. The lack of a cleric is a serious problem, and the fact that we can't convince the guy who's bringing in a new character to play one is pretty obnoxious. (He's decided to play a bard in a party with 4 rogue-ish types already. 'Cause, you know, we need more skill monkeys and Charisma-heavy types... and the player is flat-out refusing to take any healing spells or purchase any items used to heal others. He'll have UMD, he just won't buy a wand of cure anything.)

Eh, maybe I'll go back to Plan A: Persuade DM to let our already large party acquire an NPC cleric.

[deuxhero]

Only happens on the Positive Energy Plane. Unless the spell says otherwise, such healing is quite safe for living beings.

Sure, but a villain (that psion prc that lets you use healing powers on others seems good to use here with vigor) makeing a hostage level 1 commoner explode by giving them 2 temp HP is pretty intimidating (providing the PCs don't realize how he did it)

[sofawall]

There was a build somewhere that overhealed everybody around him with pozitive energy until they exploded from all the holy goodness.

Would that be the template that gives you an aura similar to the positive energy plane?

[aje8]

Compare:
Healing Belt

vs.

Wand of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigor.

It's an extremely close comparison because the point at which the belt becomes better is so far in the future you probably won't need either. Thus, pricing the Healing Belt at 750 gp is totally reasonable.

If you need that much in-combat healing, it seems likley that it's a problem with party effectiveness rather than needing more healing. In an optimized party, a Cleric will never cast a healing spell except out of combat lesser vigors.

Perhaps the solution is to have less than 5 skillmonkey rogues? That sounds like the problem to me. Obviously that'd be difficult to fix at this point but I suspect thats where the real problem lies.

[Tyndmyr]

Would your bard consider using a wand of CLW if the party chipped in together to buy one? After all, if it's going to be used for the entire party, it's fair that everyone pays for it. Not that it's expensive to begin with.

If it helps, point out to him how much cheaper it'll be for him than using potions. I understand not wanting to be slotted into healbot duty, but there's no point in throwing gold away. Also, if you've got four roguish types already, does someone else have UMD?

If your belt slot is free, buy a belt of healing, sure...but if your DM is going to insist that it's really worth 6k+ gold, don't bother. At that point, it just isn't likely to ever pay for itself.

[technophile]

(He's decided to play a bard in a party with 4 rogue-ish types already.)
Well, he's clearly being a **** about it, but consider that all of the other 4 also had the chance to select a non-rogue-ish type already. Why should he be forced to play a healbot just because none of the rest of you were willing to play a different role either?

[subject42]

Because people place undue weight on healing. It's not a powerful item, except maybe in the most unoptimized of campaigns. In-combat healing is horrible in terms of both action economy and price (two exceptions being heal and crusaders)

This is a bit of a derail, but where do you rank a Paladin with the Battle Blessing feat? It lets them cast standard action spells as swift action spells.

[Tavar]

Well, he's clearly being a **** about it, but consider that all of the other 4 also had the chance to select a non-rogue-ish type already. Why should he be forced to play a healbot just because none of the rest of you were willing to play a different role either?

This. Plus, even if he did make a cleric, you'd run into the same problem: damage outpaces healing very quickly, and stays like that until you get heal. Plus, since the spells are touch range, he would have to put himself in danger of getting taken out in order to heal anyone. Not an effective tactic.

[Talya]

Because people place undue weight on healing. It's not a powerful item, except maybe in the most unoptimized of campaigns. In-combat healing is horrible in terms of both action economy and price

In general, this is true. However, having 3 hit points left due to the enemy's lucky critical hit when you're nowhere near close to taking down the ones threatening you, a bit of healing can be nice at times. The primary saving grace of the belt of healing comes from that 4d8 emergency heal when you're in rough shape. For the first 2-3 levels, that's generally enough to bring one back up to full health.

[Milskidasith]

In general, this is true. However, having 3 hit points left due to the enemy's lucky critical hit when you're nowhere near close to taking down the ones threatening you, a bit of healing can be nice at times. The primary saving grace of the belt of healing comes from that 4d8 emergency heal when you're in rough shape. For the first 2-3 levels, that's generally enough to bring one back up to full health.

4d8 is an average of 18 HP. If I'm playing a character that's getting hit, that's almost guaranteed to be way less HP than I have. Assuming that, for some reason, I'm playing a skillmonkey in a "high powered" campaign (I think traditional definitions and the OP's definitions of high powered differ), even at level 3 I'm probably going to have more HP than that in a high powered campaign. Hell, I have a psion (well, Ardent 1/Psion 3), that, at fourth level, has 42 HP (if you ignore his well rolled constitution and his lucky HP rolls, he's down to a "measly" 36 HP.)

If I'm a melee type, I'm breaking 18 HP by level two, easily.

[Godskook]

He'll have UMD, he just won't buy a wand of cure anything.)

Buy it for him. If he refuses to cure you guys with it, he's an *****. Expecting him to 'fix' the party's issues isn't necessarily reasonable, depending on the player, but he should at least be willing to provide that much.

[PId6]

As others have said, Belt of Healing is perfectly fine as it's priced. In general, the MIC is quite balanced. The only overpowered item in there I can think of off the top of my head is the Belt of Battle; otherwise it's nicely balanced.

[Rhiannon87]

Would your bard consider using a wand of CLW if the party chipped in together to buy one? After all, if it's going to be used for the entire party, it's fair that everyone pays for it. Not that it's expensive to begin with.

If it helps, point out to him how much cheaper it'll be for him than using potions. I understand not wanting to be slotted into healbot duty, but there's no point in throwing gold away. Also, if you've got four roguish types already, does someone else have UMD?



No, he wouldn't, because then he wouldn't be doing... I don't know, awesome bardic things. He refuses to do healing, flat-out.


Well, he's clearly being a **** about it, but consider that all of the other 4 also had the chance to select a non-rogue-ish type already. Why should he be forced to play a healbot just because none of the rest of you were willing to play a different role either?

This game is in it's third year. We started off with 2 clerics, one of them played by the guy who's gonna be a bard; he played the cleric like a paladin, then the cleric died and he decided to bring in a spellfire wielder who frequently ended up healing people, which he resented. So now he's going to play a bard who refuses to heal. When we started with those 2 clerics, we also only had 2 rogues; one skillmonkey, one combat rogue. The other 2 rogue types joined a bit later, when we will had two clerics. And now everyone really likes their characters, we've got really good RP/story stuff going, so none of the rogues want to (or can, really, in some cases; hard to switch out a character when the DM is using you to drive plots) trade out their character for a healer.


This. Plus, even if he did make a cleric, you'd run into the same problem: damage outpaces healing very quickly, and stays like that until you get heal. Plus, since the spells are touch range, he would have to put himself in danger of getting taken out in order to heal anyone. Not an effective tactic.

We're 12th level, actually, so we've got heal. And when our cleric shows, he's able to do healing quite well, and manages not to get hit that often. The problem is, he's been known to miss five or six sessions in a row. We have to invest a lot of our party treasury in diamonds for this very reason; people die a lot because we have no one to heal them in combat.

[Akal Saris]

Well, at 12th level even the rogue-types will be more effective doing attack actions than sitting around healing 4d8+7 or whatever with a wand of cure serious or a healing belt.

Instead, maybe the party should consider spending gold on defensive items to improve their AC, resistances, Con, miss chances, and other things.

[Tyndmyr]

If the DM will let you buy the belts for 750 each, several of those might help the party. One, honestly, won't make much difference. You're already at the point where even the largest heal is relatively weak compared to your HP.

Someone else in that party has got to have UMD, though.

Keep in mind that even with wands of CLW and belts of healing...it's not really a healer replacement. Given the money you have available, Akal's advice looks accurate.

If you can get it, concealment is awesome. A wand of Blur, or another concealment granting spell might reduce your incoming damage significantly.

[sadi]

I wouldn't feel bad about it being 1,000 since it probably is supposed to be that anyhow. The cost to create is listed as 500, and there is no errata showing which is the actual correct number.

[Thurbane]

The pricing of the Healing Belt is an often debated subject. The MIC lists it at 750gp, yet it's price to create is listed as 500gp, meaning it should cost 1000gp.

And by the suggested formula in the DMG, it should be approximately 7200gp (2 x 3 x 2000 / 1.66).

...I personally believe it is very undervalued at 750gp, but MIC did set a lot of new benchmarks in reducing the price of several kinds of items.

[herrhauptmann]

Why not get a custom magic item instead?
Say a shirt/vest that casts heal 1/day. I think it'd be about 14000gp using DMG custom item rules.
If you're a rogueish character, a Heal spell should fully restore your HP, even if made at the lowest caster level 11th level for 110 HP.