Arena Tournament, Round 72: Dense vs. Chile IV

[ArenaManager]

Arena Tournament, Round 72: Dense vs. Chile IV

Map:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/Kyeudo/CloudArena.jpg


XP Award: 600 XP
GP Award: 600 GP

Psionic Dog - Dense (http://www.coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=5065)
Chilepepper - Chile IV (http://tinyurl.com/5ch9b2)

All Combatants, please roll initiative and declare final purchases, if any

[chilepepper]

Initiative [roll0]

edit: Looks like I go first, any purchases?

[Psionic Dog]

Hey, the L2 round is finally starting! :smallcool:

Hmm. I think I'll drop 50gp on a Crawling Tatoo of Concussion.
That's all for now but may make a reactionary buy if applicable.

[roll0]

Edit, yah. Start whenever ready.

[chilepepper]

You didn't actually have to roll initiative, but okay. No purchases (not a whole lot I could buy with 20ish gold). You'll see me carrying my tent into the Arena, the "left in locker" items listed on my sheet are not on my person.

Do I read correctly that you are riding bareback (-5 to ride checks)?

Round 1

Refs

Tent is set up in M25/N25.
I start in N25.

Cast Invisibility from scroll.
CL check [roll0]
Wis [roll1]

Move to V24.



You'd probably get a reactive listen check to hear that I'm casting a spell, but to save myself or a ref from trying to figure out the DC, I'll just let you know that I am.

Stats
HP 6/6
AC 17 T 15 FF 12
Invisibility 1/30 (if successfully cast)
Position V24

Tent in M25/N25
In hand: Scroll, Wand, Sleepsmoke // empty


Done

[Psionic Dog]

*sigh* yah, Dense is riding bareback. Saddles appear not to be weight adjusted by size making them too heavy to be practical with medium mounts. :smallannoyed:

Dense Round 1

Hmm. This chili guy could be tough.

Starting N2.
Wearing breastplate, buckler, bareback on riding dog with leather barding.
Holding loaded heavy crossbow in one hand.

Ride mount 75 ft to U-14
Ready Action.
Shoot Chili if Dense pinpoints his location.


Done.

Stats
Dense
HP: 26/26
AC: 20 (+5armor +3dex +1shield +1size)

Dog
HP: 13/13
AC: 18 (+2 barding, +2dex +4natural)

[chilepepper]

Requesting LoS

refs
Reactive Listen [roll0]
Reactive Spot [roll1]

[Mavian]

@Refs

Yay, invisibility and clouds, this'll be fun.


@Chili

No LoS, you here movement to the east


@Dense

You hear the aforementioned spellcasting, and then nothing. No LoS

[chilepepper]

refsEast???

[Mavian]

@chili

Or possibly west, since you know, that would be the correct direction.

[chilepepper]

Round 2

refsI'll move silently [roll0] diagonally to Y21 then to Y17, reserving the right to change movement if LoS is established during that move.

stats
HP: 6/6
AC: 17 T: 15 FF: 12
Invisibility 2/30
Movement/Position: V24 > Y21 > Y17

Tent in M25/N25
In hand: Scroll, Wand, Sleepsmoke // empty


Not done.

[madtinker]

RefsListen for Dense [roll0]

@DenseNo LoS

@ChileDense is in the cloud at U14

[chilepepper]

Round 2 cont.

refs
Switch wand to free hand and use it to launch sleepsmoke at U14/V15.
[roll0] vs AC 5


Roll a DC 15 fort save for you and your mount from sleepsmoke in U14/V15.

Done.

statsHP: 6/6
AC: 17 T: 15 FF: 12
Invisibility 2/30
Movement/Position: Y17

Tent in M25/N25
In hand: Scroll, Sleepsmoke // Wand

[Psionic Dog]

It occurs to me in hindsight that Dense probably should have bought an anti-toxin.

LoS:

[roll0]
[roll1]

[Psionic Dog]

Dense Round 2

Zzzzzz

Assuming no LoS, done.

Stats:
Dense
HP: 26/26
AC: 20 (+5armor +3dex +1shield +1size)
Unconscious: 1/10

Dog
HP: 13/13
AC: 18 (+2 barding, +2dex +4natural)
Unconscious: 1/10

[chilepepper]

I have LoS so I looked in the spoiler with the saves. I don't need to look at whatever you posted for round 2 since I know you are unconscious.

Unconscious = helpless = -5 dex modifier
Your AC is 12, and Touch AC is 9 I believe
I also get +4 to melee attacks since you're prone

Here's the first 6 of 10 rounds, it should be enough but I have to check the rolls
refs only
Round 3
Free action, drop everything
Cast True Strike using 2 0-level sorcerer slots
Move in to 10' directly south (shouldn't matter)

Round 4
Bag of boulders, Three charges
Ranged attack [roll0]
[roll1]

Round 5
Lesser orb of acid, as warmage
Ranged touch [roll2]
[roll3]

Round 6
Lesser orb of fire, as warmage
Ranged touch [roll4]
[roll5]

Round 7
Lesser orb of cold, as warmage
Ranged touch [roll6]
[roll7]

Round 8
Lesser orb of electricity, as warmage
Ranged touch [roll8]
[roll9]

[chilepepper]

That's 39 damage by round 8, so that should be game. I'll go hail a ref.

edit: side note, darn you for being too heavy for me to carry to the edge and throw out of the Arena

[Psionic Dog]

True that. Round 2 was nothing but Z's. I posted it that way since I had no way of knowing if you were invisible or making an indirect lob from behind the mists. (I can't think of any other reason you'd still be hidden after lobbing the sleep smoke)

Also, doesn't the victim usually get to see the alleged attack roles against him? :smallconfused:

If you are making ranged attacks I'd like to claim the 20% miss-chance of the mist, and I can't figure out why you'd mention melee bonus since neither of us have a melee weapon beyond our fists and Dense's non-disarmable spiked gauntlet.

[chilepepper]

A. You wouldn't get to see the rolls because you are unconscious. A ref would confirm the hits and you could always look after the match has concluded.

B. If I were invisible, I'd still be invisible after the sleepsmoke because it's an attack on an inanimate object. Further, the Arena has ruled that indirect attacks that do damage (like splash weapons) still bust invisibility, but sleepsmoke doesn't do damage.

C. Invisibility is moot because you're unconscious and don't get to see what I'm doing anyway.

D. I mentioned the melee bonus because while I don't have melee weapons, I do have melee spells.

E. You are right about the concealment, and I actually did forget to roll for that.

refs[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll4]


Make that 34 damage, one attack did actually miss, not that you'd know that.

[Psionic Dog]

A. Excellent logic, but I'm still concerned that the "Trust me and the next random reff, you're dead but I don't have to tell you why." would set a Bad Precedent. Besides, it's hard for the looser to conceded victory if they don't know what happened.

B. Yes, I know that sleep smoke does not break invisibility.

C. True I don't know what you are doing, but I still should know about anything being done to or targeting me.

D. Fair'nuff.

E. I'll go call a high/GM ref to for both a confirmation that dense is dead and for an official opinion on what does and does not need to be shown.

For the record I'll be arguing that the victim has the right/need to know:
-If each attack against them was melee, ranged, or something else
-If an attack roll was Touch or standard
-Attack roll result for each attack
-Damage type of each attack/effect
-Damage dealt from each attack/effect
-Miss chance results

[Tanaric]

I'll be looking over the match for you shortly, Psi. However, I'd like to point something out: we trust the high refs to do their jobs with impartiality, and that extends to making match calls. If you can't trust them to tell you honestly and without bias what happened to your character, why can you trust them to decide your fate at the end of the match at all?

[Tanaric]

*fiddles with chin strap* Damn hat still doesn't fit right... ah, there we go.

High Ref Tanaric

It's pretty cut and dry here, actually. Chile hit with the attacks he mentioned, which did the damage he said they did. Dense's body has been bludgeoned, fried, flash frozen, and subjected to electricity on par with a Frankenstein experiment. As such...

Chile IV is the winner.

Now in regards to this:
For the record I'll be arguing that the victim has the right/need to know:
-If each attack against them was melee, ranged, or something else
-If an attack roll was Touch or standard
-Attack roll result for each attack
-Damage type of each attack/effect
-Damage dealt from each attack/effect
-Miss chance results

I take my high ref hat off for this, as the following is merely my opinion. I suspect that you will want Kyeudo's judgment for an official call. However, my feeling on the matter is this: when you are conscious, you do indeed have the right to know each of these things. You do not have the right to know them while you are knocked out. Your character cannot react to the attacks, nor can he perceive them in any fashion. As such, you should not, and do not, know precisely what resources your opponent has expended against you while you were out. The refs will, if necessary, tell you what damage you took, and they will take into account any resistances that would apply. It is my opinion that this is all your character is entitled to while he's unconscious.

[Psionic Dog]

I'll be looking over the match for you shortly, Psi. However, I'd like to point something out: we trust the high refs to do their jobs with impartiality, and that extends to making match calls. If you can't trust them to tell you honestly and without bias what happened to your character, why can you trust them to decide your fate at the end of the match at all?

First, I do trust the refs to make impartial judgments. That isn't the issue and has never been a complaint I've had.

In a word, the issue is 'Tradition'

A) The Tradition of Rule Lawering

The arena has a long history of Rule Lawering by creatures attempting to escape their proposed fate [kind of like I'm doing now]

The problem with the secret rolls is that it makes the end-of match a one-sided argument with the victim unable to effectively protest.


B) The Tradition of Concession

Precedent says the high refs allow the looser to either concede the match before making the call or else file a protest. If the looser wishes to lodge a protest, the Ref then has the privilege of making an impartial judgment between two parties, and if the looser refuses to do either then the refs call the match by virtue of DQ.


C) Impartial Judgments require listening to two sides

As noted above, the refs listen to Both Sides when possible. Not every ref has every book, and in most cases the player knows their character better than the refs.

EDIT
*nods graciously*
I figured Dense was down the moment both he and his dog failed their saves. I'm still concerned about what might happen with the next match however.

[hustlertwo]

First, I do trust the refs to make impartial judgments. That isn't the issue and has never been a complaint I've had.

In a word, the issue is 'Tradition'

A) The Tradition of Rule Lawering

The arena has a long history of Rule Lawering by creatures attempting to escape their proposed fate [kind of like I'm doing now]

The problem with the secret rolls is that it makes the end-of match a one-sided argument with the victim unable to effectively protest.


B) The Tradition of Concession

Precedent says the high refs allow the looser to either concede the match before making the call or else file a protest. If the looser wishes to lodge a protest, the Ref then has the privilege of making an impartial judgment between two parties, and if the looser refuses to do either then the refs call the match by virtue of DQ.


C) Impartial Judgments require listening to two sides

As noted above, the refs listen to Both Sides when possible. Not every ref has every book, and in most cases the player knows their character better than the refs.

EDIT
*nods graciously*
I figured Dense was down the moment both he and his dog failed their saves. I'm still concerned about what might happen with the next match however.

I know you mentioned the whole tradition about letting the person acknowledge their defeat when we fought in round 60, but I think that's a tradition that isn't exactly universal here, because I see a lot of match calls come before the defeated party has conceded.

[chilepepper]

A. Excellent logic, but I'm still concerned that the "Trust me and the next random reff, you're dead but I don't have to tell you why." would set a Bad Precedent. Besides, it's hard for the looser to conceded victory if they don't know what happened.

You get to look after the match.


C. True I don't know what you are doing, but I still should know about anything being done to or targeting me.

If you're character doesn't know, then you don't know, at least while the match is still going.


E. I'll go call a high/GM ref to for both a confirmation that dense is dead and for an official opinion on what does and does not need to be shown.

For the record I'll be arguing that the victim has the right/need to know:
-If each attack against them was melee, ranged, or something else
-If an attack roll was Touch or standard
-Attack roll result for each attack
-Damage type of each attack/effect
-Damage dealt from each attack/effect
-Miss chance results

While I can't ref this match, on these points I can weigh in. You don't get to know any of that unless your character would get to know. Getting to know any of that would give you an unfair advantage. You might as well be cheating and looking in spoilers.

Anyway, the match has been called, so you are now more than welcome to look in the spoiler to see what I hit you with and what the rolls were. If there were a mistake, the match call could be redacted.

[Psionic Dog]

Blah, match redacts are ugly things. :smallsigh:

Anyway, mistakes? I found two more.

First, prone characters gain a +4 AC bonus against ranged attacks. Second, the -5 dex replaces a helpless character's old dex bring Denses actual touch AC down to 6, so everything still hit after all.

In this case Chilie had enough overkill for the stuff not to matter, but in other matches it might not be so close.


As far as "Unfair Advantage" I have to call B.S. on that one. If I'm unconscious I can't tell anyone, and if I survive and wake up I'd discover what had hit me anyway (arrows, sword slashes, acid burns etc)

Oh, and I found precedent supporting posting attack rolls. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84659)

If you know of any past examples where the refs allowed combatants to keep their attack/damage rolls a secret pleace tell me because I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo



For the record I'll be arguing that the victim has the right/need to know:
-If each attack against them was melee, ranged, or something else
-If an attack roll was Touch or standard
-Attack roll result for each attack
-Damage type of each attack/effect
-Damage dealt from each attack/effect
-Miss chance results

I would have to second this proposal. From an IC standpoint, the character doesn't care (if he lives, he knows he's been shot full of arrows), but from a metagame standpoint it does not give the player an unfair advantage.

The player does not get any information about locations, spells cast that don't involve his character, or anything else his character would be unable to know about (not even what spells were cast on him), but being able to review the attack rolls and damage rolls that involve his character would allow the player to check for potential errors, such as a miss due to being prone.

Any further objections?

[chilepepper]

Oh, and I found precedent supporting posting attack rolls. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84659)

Nice try, but that's not precedent. I simply chose not to spoiler my rolls there, it was not because I had to leave them in the open.

It's actually because of that that I spoilered here. There's a chance you might wake up.


I would have to second this proposal. From an IC standpoint, the character doesn't care (if he lives, he knows he's been shot full of arrows), but from a metagame standpoint it does not give the player an unfair advantage.

The player does not get any information about locations, spells cast that don't involve his character, or anything else his character would be unable to know about (not even what spells were cast on him), but being able to review the attack rolls and damage rolls that involve his character would allow the player to check for potential errors, such as a miss due to being prone.

Any further objections?

The player could figure out the attacks being made, or at least rule out alot. For instance, if I had to roll the 4d6 damage, he could figure out that I used my bag of boulders since there's no other source of damage I could produce that high. If he saw me roll miss and then damage, he could deduce that I used my second level spell. He could rule out how many spells I've used that he never actually saw me cast.

If he wakes up, he should get to know the total damage and possible the type (e.g. you received 14 points of damage including bludgeoning and piercing). Anything more and the opponent gets metagame info he wouldn't otherwise have.