(3.5) First time playing a Rogue; PRC to fit the concept?

[Dragor]

Despite having being involved in 3.5 for... ooh, four years?... I've never properly played a Rogue. So, I wanted to come to the Playground for an all-around what to do and what not to do in terms of Rogues.

I don't want some build to make me the most uber-leet-badass to have ever crossed the Earth (we can't all be Wizards :smalltongue:), I just want to avoid feat-traps and PRC traps.

So, here's the concept, it's quite simple:

Darius of the Five-Hills Caravan Company (he much prefers Darius without the added guff) is, officially, the owner of Darius' Emporium, a shop with many bits and bobs of dubious quality. Darius makes his fair trade with this, but in comparison to the other shops, his profit is fairly limited.
Darius combats this by completely being the stereotype of a Gypsy thief.
He considers himself above other thieves. They steal for fun, the 'thrill'- pah! They have no philosophy, no creed! Darius believes that all objects in life follow a strict path from one person to another. Nobody truly owns an object; they are simply one possessor in a line of many. So when he finds himself suddenly in the possession of a golden medallion (without ANY of his knowledge, or skill, or plan made to steal it whatsoever), who is he to question fate?

So, basically, advice is what I need. Where are the traps, what are the boons, and is there a PRC which fits my concept? It's early days yet- the only things we've confirmed is that it's going to be 3.5, we're starting at Level 1, and my concept is perfectly sound, according to the DM.

Thanks for having a gander.

- Dragor

[The Glyphstone]

You could do fine with pure Rogue, if you want to play to the 'thief' stereotype as opposed to, say, maximizing Sneak Attack damage. Maybe Exemplar for UberSkillMastery on stuff like Sleight of Hand?

For damage potential, there's Craven from Hereos of Horror - add your character level to Sneak Attack for a -2 on all Fear effect saves.

[DragoonWraith]

The Complete Scoundrel PrCs Fortune's Friend and Montebank seem pretty well suited to your character, what with the whole fate thing.

[Godskook]

If you're going human, Able Learner might be of some aid if you multi-class, or if you want a lot of cross class skills.

And agreed with the undead lancer above me, Complete Scoundrel is a must-read, as is Complete Adventurer(My favorite: daggerspell mage).

[Curmudgeon]

Straight Rogue works very well for what you've described. There are "dead" levels (i.e., with no new class features) at 14 and 20, so it's a perfectly viable class for 19 levels.

You don't get much from most prestige classes. The most important things for you are skill points, and almost any PrC will cause a reduction in that most important resource. A dedicated solo thief will want Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Spot, Listen, and Sleight of Hand. You really need those skill points!

[Dragor]

Thanks guys. I looked at Fortune's Friend and Montebank- Fortune's Friend did definitely make me smile, it did seem to fit the concept.

I know the idea of playing a pure Rogue makes sense, but, well- for some reason, if I play a pure Rogue, I feel I'm not getting the most out of my character and making him more 'interesting' if he's not got a PRC. I know that's not the case at all, but still.

Anyway, thanks again.

The race was going to be human, yeah. I barely play anyone else. I love that extra feat a little too much.

[Superglucose]

Someone point him into ways to sneak attack undead, etc.

[herrhauptmann]

I recommend a good look at the skill tricks in complete scoundrel. Also the luck feats.
I believe there's one (don't have any books at the moment) 'lucky critical' which lets you treat a natural 1 as a crit threat. The prereqs are a little high, like 3 feats with the 'luck' descriptor or something, but probably worth it.

Also, depending on how optimized your group is, loading up on the skill tricks and luck feats can really blow them out of the water "How'd he do that?"
Your character idea sounds almost like a kender in terms of item possession though.
edit: Not that a kenders a bad thing or anything... :smallamused:

[daggaz]

Thanks guys. I looked at Fortune's Friend and Montebank- Fortune's Friend did definitely make me smile, it did seem to fit the concept.

I know the idea of playing a pure Rogue makes sense, but, well- for some reason, if I play a pure Rogue, I feel I'm not getting the most out of my character and making him more 'interesting' if he's not got a PRC. I know that's not the case at all, but still.

Anyway, thanks again.

The race was going to be human, yeah. I barely play anyone else. I love that extra feat a little too much.


If your DM will allow strongheart halflings from players guide to faerun, you can play a small race and still nab that bonus feat. They are identical to normal halflings, but trade in the +1 to all saves for a bonus feat, which is so well worth it. Course, you wont have that bonus skill point per level, but they have racial skill bonuses plus the small size helps a thief to hide and be generally sneakier..

[JellyPooga]

With that concept, I would be tempted to use the Martial Rogue variant from Unearthed Arcana...having the Bonus Feats instead of Sneak attack seems more fitting for such a character to me. If you do go for that option, see if you can persuade your DM to allow you to take feats other than Fighter bonus feats, like Luck feats or skill related feats instead (the Scout bonus feat list might be a good place to start for ideas...).

As has been mentioned, most Rogue PrCs detract from your precious precious skill points and for you, skill points are what it's all about. Having said that, there are a few that retain 8+Int mod...here's a couple of them that I think might be appropriate:

Uncanny Trickster (CS) - only three levels long and effectively gives you a dead level in exchange for 3 bonus tricks (read: 6 bonus skill points) and the ability to use your tricks more than once per encounter.

Exemplar (CAdv) - Not usually that good an adventuring class but I see this one fitting your character well. I kind of see you becoming the "ageless gypsy" stereotype through application of this PrC; untouchable because of his mastery of his own self.

You might want to look into Alternate Class Features:

Antiquarian (CC) - exchange Trapfinding for Identify 1/day and a bonus on Appraise...only drawback is that it's items of religious significance only.

[Grumman]

I'd like to remind the OP that gypsy thieves don't get invited into adventuring parties. Gypsy thieves get left face-down in the mud with multiple punctured organs. Playing coy about your thefts just increases the likelihood of said bleeding out.

[Curmudgeon]

Antiquarian (CC) - exchange Trapfinding for Identify 1/day and a bonus on Appraise...only drawback is that it's items of religious significance only.
I'd suggest just buying a Monocle of Perusal (Magic Item Comendium, pages 117-118) instead. You get a continuous bonus to Appraise plus Identify 3/day with no cost. You can recover the 6,500 gp cost just checking out magic items.

[Myrmex]

Changeling has racial substitution levels that give 10 skill points instead of 8.

[Dragor]

I'd like to remind the OP that gypsy thieves don't get invited into adventuring parties. Gypsy thieves get left face-down in the mud with multiple punctured organs. Playing coy about your thefts just increases the likelihood of said bleeding out.

I'd never steal anything from the party. There's a difference between stealing because you believe you deserve it and stealing to be a massive douchebag. I'm going to not try and play up the last one. If the party are his friends, then he's not going to steal from them out of sheer principle.

I hate "I-Steal-Everything LOL" Rogues. I'm going to try and not play one.

[JellyPooga]

I'd never steal anything from the party. There's a difference between stealing because you believe you deserve it and stealing to be a massive douchebag. I'm going to not try and play up the last one. If the party are his friends, then he's not going to steal from them out of sheer principle.

I hate "I-Steal-Everything LOL" Rogues. I'm going to try and not play one.

I actually quite like the aptly named "I-Steal-Everyting LOL" Rogue...so long as it's done properly. Stealing important things from your fellow adventurers is quite obviously not going to win you friends...taking the Clerics wand of Heal or the Rangers Flaming Ghost Touch Kukri (that he uses as his offhand weapon against incorporeals) is going to a)be noticed and b)have repercussions. This is not how you do it. Stealing incidental things, like the Rangers Dust of Dryness or the Druids Feather Token:Tree and returning them later may be noticed, but isn't important enough to warrant any serious punishment and allows you to claim that you're "just keeping my hand in" should you be caught. It's not about kleptomania or getting rich or powerful off of your friends' backs, it's about having a personality quirk. When you happen to produce just the right tool for the job (like a Feather Token:Tree to get the party over a wall) and the Barbarian says "Hey, that's mine!" (to which your innocently shocked response is of course "Really? I just found it lying around"), the party hasn't lost out because you happen to have it rather than the Barbarian and you get to play the sneaky-thiefy-Rogue.

just my 2p on the subject...

[Myrmex]

Like the "personality quirk" of the party wizard who tends to splash his allies with damage? Never enough to be dangerous, just enough HP loss to make him a little more of a wild & crazy guy.

Or the raging barbarian that has a tendency to cleave into allies. Or the cleric of god with the domination domain, who tends to dominate his allies. Just for a little bit, and never over anything major. You know, just so the party can see how serious he is about his deity and way of thinking.

[edit]
In medieval society, thieves were hated because they took the hard work of other people. When the party members were raised in an environment where men hanged for stealing a dagger, it'd be perfectly reasonable to react to rogue dickery with a lot of brutal stabbing.

[Foryn Gilnith]

D&D society is not medieval. Ask any wench you find lying around. Their sensibilities are much more...modern. Sane, I'd say. And those sort of actions are a good way to end in a near-TPK, with the rogue surviving. I, as a rogue, who took pains to limit my characterization to be as harmless as possible; would have no qualms responding to your violent attack in kind.

The thing about those is that they actually, measurably hurt the party.
It's all well and fine to hurl fireballs into the party's midst as a quirk; but OOC you should take an extraordinary aim feat or miss the party. Have them at the edge of the blast radius (but play it up as them getting superficial singes)
It's all well and fine to get a little overboard when raging; but OOC you shouldn't actually attack players. Describe your greataxe backswing as sweeping an inch from the cleric's head, or get a friend in on it to "strategically" 5' step away and switch to ranged plunking.
It's all well and fine to be a klepto; but OOC you shouldn't steal anything important. Just take the party stuff, the things that JellyPooga explicitly stated won't matter who uses it.

[Grumman]

I, as a rogue, who took pains to limit my characterization to be as harmless as possible; would have no qualms responding to your violent attack in kind.
Don't act like you're some sort of martyr for suffering the consequences of your actions. If you steal from someone it's your own fault if they beat you up.

[JellyPooga]

Don't act like you're some sort of martyr for suffering the consequences of your actions. If you steal from someone it's your own fault if they beat you up.

Yeah but if all he stole was something incidental and he used it in exactly the same way that you would have used it anyway (i.e. it had the exact same effect, including who it affects), then I'd say that although you'd have the moral high ground for punishing him for stealing, you'd be being a complete douche for exacting such a harsh punishment, when the theft was not malicious and the stolen item was effectively returned.

[Bagelz]

I always liked invisblade from one of the completes (warrior or adventurer).

feats: maximize your class features - sneak attack of opportunity, karmic strike,
if your str is good consider dual weilding feats, if your dex based consider spring attack line (since you'll be getting more damage out of sneak attack than out of +str mod to extra attacks).

[Cieyrin]

Yeah but if all he stole was something incidental and he used it in exactly the same way that you would have used it anyway (i.e. it had the exact same effect, including who it affects), then I'd say that although you'd have the moral high ground for punishing him for stealing, you'd be being a complete douche for exacting such a harsh punishment, when the theft was not malicious and the stolen item was effectively returned.

Exactly. Getting bent out of shape over using someone else's item for exactly what they were going to do is going over the deep end a bit. It's not like he stole the Wizard's spellbook and sold it for that new pair of boots, he borrowed the cleric's wand of cure light wounds and used it on his buddy that went down, where the cleric isn't going to reach him before he bleeds out.

[Grumman]

he borrowed the cleric's wand of cure light wounds and used it on his buddy that went down, where the cleric isn't going to reach him before he bleeds out.
You are using a blatantly skewed hypothetical to support the rogue's actions. Unless the rogue can predict future need prior to his theft, it is equally likely that the positions could be reversed, with the rogue unable to reach him before he bleeds out.

[jiriku]

Magic Item Compendium has weapon augment crystals that will allow you to extend your sneak attack to undead and constructs. These crystals hugely expand the number of encounters in which you can participate.

Maxing ranks in Use Magic Device also greatly expands your options in many encounters both in and out of combat.

Targets who have concealment can't be sneak attacked, so get yourself some form of darkvision. Add to this the ability to see invisible creatures, combined with high Spot and Listen modifiers, and you'll definitely be carving out a unique role for yourself in the party.

If you intend to put ranks in Gather Information, consider the Urban Tracking feat, which lets you hunt down a particular person in a large city. If you'd rather focus on the "traveling" part of the traveling gypsy, you could take the wilderness rogue variant, get survival as a class skill, and pick up Track.

[Tyndmyr]

I'd never steal anything from the party. There's a difference between stealing because you believe you deserve it and stealing to be a massive douchebag. I'm going to not try and play up the last one. If the party are his friends, then he's not going to steal from them out of sheer principle.

I hate "I-Steal-Everything LOL" Rogues. I'm going to try and not play one.

We have two of these in the party. Im just waiting until my wizard is in the right position, catches them at it, and gets to nova them both.

[Dragor]

We have two of these in the party. Im just waiting until my wizard is in the right position, catches them at it, and gets to nova them both.

Good! I've never seen kleptomania done correct in any D&D game I've played. Sure, in OOTS, it's great to play off that for laughs, but when in real games it's a little less funny. Or I'm just a huge killjoy, eitherway.

I like to play Rogues who know that they need their mates to get the best out of everything. In my opinion, a Rogue who knows that he needs the blundering Barbarian to distract the minotaur while he sets up the mantrap (or in this case minotaur trap) behind him, is the best Rogue.

Loner Rogues who think it's hilarious to steal from a party member and to brood and sit on their own aren't my kind of thing.

[Telonius]

How about this for a build...

Rogue3/Beguiler7/Arcane Trickster10 (Use Advanced Learning to get Mage Hand).

Temple Raider of Olidammara might interest you as well.

EDIT: Though I will say that Rouge19/AnythingButCommoner1 is a perfectly good build. Most of the Rogue PrCs are kind of lackluster, and some of the other standards (Rogue/Swashbuckler multiclass with Daring Outlaw) don't really fit the character concept.

[Dragor]

How about this for a build...

Rogue3/Beguiler7/Arcane Trickster10 (Use Advanced Learning to get Mage Hand).

Temple Raider of Olidammara might interest you as well.

I've always liked the Beguiler, but I'm not sure if I want to introduce the magical element the Beguiler has into the equation. Doesn't really fit the character.

Where's the Temple Raider of Olidamarra from?

[Telonius]

Complete Divine.

[Dragor]

Ah, thanks. I'll look it up.

--EDIT--

This looks pretty good. I hadn't thought of putting a religious spin on it. He could be a devout of Olidimarra, wouldn't put too much strain on the concept.

[Cieyrin]

You are using a blatantly skewed hypothetical to support the rogue's actions. Unless the rogue can predict future need prior to his theft, it is equally likely that the positions could be reversed, with the rogue unable to reach him before he bleeds out.

True enough but the cleric probably doesn't need the wand to prevent that. That's what cure minor is for.

Poor examples aside, it's kinda moot either way, as the player in question isn't playing a klepto and thus makes discussing the viability of such irrelevant to the thread.

[good_lookin_gus]

it is equally likely that the positions could be reversed, with the rogue unable to reach him before he bleeds out.

Lol. What game are you playing? Rogues often have double the Cleric's movement speed; and if they can't wander through threatened squares with virtual impunity, they're doing something wrong. You're better off arguing from the angle of difficulty monopolizing success with Use Magic Device. Even frequent success requires a solid investment.

[Myrmex]

D&D society is not medieval.

It is economically. No middle class. Feudal, agrarian society. Rule by force.


Just take the party stuff, the things that JellyPooga explicitly stated won't matter who uses it.

It depends if the party is split up or not. What if a party needs to use his item and the rogue who has it is 100 feet away & out of ear shot? What if the druid needs to use a tree token RIGHT THIS SECOND and not wait for the rogue to pull it out, move over, and toss it?


How about this for a build...

Rogue3/Beguiler7/Arcane Trickster10 (Use Advanced Learning to get Mage Hand).

Mage Hand isn't an illusion or enchantment spell.


Lol. What game are you playing? Rogues often have double the Cleric's movement speed; and if they can't wander through threatened squares with virtual impunity, they're doing something wrong. You're better off arguing from the angle of difficulty monopolizing success with Use Magic Device. Even frequent success requires a solid investment.

Maybe if all combats are fought in featureless 20ftx20ft boxes and the players never move more than 10 feet away from each other at any time while adventuring.

[Dragor]

I don't think half of the discussions on this thread are really relevant to my first question. You're free to take it into another thread. :smallsmile:

Anyway, I've got a nice set of ideas, thanks guys.

[woodenbandman]

Spymaster could be good, makes you better at lying, and disguising, and resistant to scrying and suchlike. It's pretty cool.

[good_lookin_gus]

Maybe if all combats are fought in featureless 20ftx20ft boxes and the players never move more than 10 feet away from each other at any time while adventuring.

:smallconfused:

Hampered Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#hamperedMovement)

It's not exclusive to Rogues.